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Ok, one might argue that the Holy Spirit baptism was not given before Acts 2, but one definitely can argue that salvation was granted well before that...well before tongues.Salvation was offered to the Israelites and John the Baptist well before Pentecost (Luke 13:28). Matthew 8:11 says, "many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in t

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Before Christ was crucified they were still under the Old Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 

33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. KJV

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 

10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 

13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. 

1Cor 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood: Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." RSV

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Reply to : MrJonahOk, one might argue that the Holy Spirit baptism was not given before Acts 2, but one definitely can argue that salvation was granted well before that...well before tongues.Salvation was offered to the Israelites and John the Baptist well before Pentecost (Luke 13:28). Matthew 8:11 says, "many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in tBefore Christ was crucified they were still under the Old Covenant.Jeremiah 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the l

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Sure.  fine.  But no one was saved under the Law.  Not one was saved by works (Romans).  So how were they saved?

And what of the theif on the cross?

Reply to : pilinut

Before Christ was crucified they were still under the Old Covenant.

I don't know if it's as cut and dried as some sort of supposed OT versus NT conflict. Jesus seemed to imply that a radical change in human relationship with God happened because of him being who he is, in his ushering in the Kingdom of God as he walked the earth and ministered for 3 years. I think it had to do with the priority and urgency of personal faith, myself.

I reckon John's Gospel opens up more questions that it provides answers to your point of view on this whole subject. For example, John 4:23 - "But an hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the TRUE worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth." And this before Pentecost. So too the events of John 20:22 (and you must know from your study of Greek that the claim this somehow refers to a future event -- i.e. Pentecost -- is weak. What it is, is a clear allusion to Genesis 1 and man becoming a 'living being'). Jesus made it very clear in the gospel records that those who believe in him (present tense) are in a different class and spiritual situation to everyone else, including those other Jews who lived strictly according to the OT requirements and stipulations (which Jesus' followers, apparently, did not).

Well, I think there's heaps of other Bible passages that outwardly contradict what you believe to be true concerning the Holy Spirit. One of the biggest problems with the RC's idea of how someone is saved (apart from the obvious difficulty of it being unscriptural) is that it salvation becomes a strictly mechanical process and formularistic. This puts the Revival Centres position very close to what they claim of the Roman Catholic position, if you think about it for a moment.

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Reply to : pilinutBefore Christ was crucified they were still under the Old Covenant.I don't know if it'sas cut and dried assome sort ofsupposedOT versus NT conflict. Jesus seemed to imply that a radical change in human relationship with God happenedbecauseof him being who he is,in hisushering in the Kingdom of Godas he walked the earth and ministered for 3 years. I think ithad to do with the priority andurgencyof personalfaith, myself.I reckon John's Gospel opens upmore questions that it provides answers to your point of view on this wholesubject. For example, John 4:23 - "But an hour is coming, and NOW IS, when theTRUE worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth." And thisbeforePentecost. So too

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I think there needs to be some clearer meaning in the topic of Salvation. The greek word is"soteria" and it simply means "deliverance and/or preservation" and in some scriptures eg 1 Peter 1:9, it has a 'present experience' connation.. So therefore salvation in itself would represent a continual and current work of The Holy Spirit in the life of the believer..

Bhagwan 

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And what of the theif on the cross?

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The thief on the cross - Pastor Brad Smith 1990

An RF publication (but thought provoking anyway):

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember be when thou comest into the kindgom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise"

• Was the thief on the cross really saved?
• If he was ...did he go to heaven that day?

The word paradise has a particular meaning in the original Greek according to Brad. Paradeisos ... para (around) deisos (a wall, i.e. bordered park or garden ... translated from the oriental origins ... HEB "pardec" park, forest, orchard, surrounded by a hedge or wall). The word isn't another word for heaven. It means beautiful garden area. Jesus was simpy saying to the thief, this day we are both going to the garden, the grave nothing more.

Consider the prophetic scripture in Isa 53:9 And he made his GRAVE (qeber - tomb) with the WICKED (rasha - hostile to God). Deu 21:23 - His body shall not remain all night on the tree but thou shalt bury him that day.

He died with the wicked (not one wicked and one saved). The custom of the day was to bury the dead in parks and gardens. Jesus and the theif didn't go to heaven but rather directly to the grave of tomb. Literally...

Another interesting consideration put across by Brad was that from the time of Jesus' arrest until his ressurection was three days. During that time He bacame sin and had not any power within him to save himself yet alone grant forgiveness. He healed no one in that time nor did he even proclaim himself as the Christ. (Isa 59:2 God hid His face from you). Mat 27:46 - He was forsaken by God and couldn't do anything but die.

In Mat 20:21- 23 She asked Him if her two sons would sit on His right hand in the kingdom. He answered her "It is not mine to give"... but yet are some are lead to believe that he was able to grant forgiveness to the thief a short time later? Jesus didn't rise until the third day after his betrayal so where was Jesus and the thief 'that day'? In fact it was another 40 days before Jesus went to God.

Comments...?

--------oOo--------

This is from a man who believed the Lord would return in 1997, 80 years (a full generation plus 10) after 1917 when general Allenby took back Jerusalem 'As birds flying etc'. However, Brad realised as the millenium turned a corner that the word generation was written at a time when a generation was 120 years. He also stated that the numerical gemetria for the greek word, generations, added up to 120 therefore placing the return of Jesus at approximately 2037... "lest those days be shortened for the elect's sake).

Stay tuned for more wacky revelations from Big Bad Brad.

Oh my dear, what a bullshit!

My favourite one:

"Another interesting consideration put across by Brad was that from the time of Jesus' arrest until his ressurection was three days. During that time He bacame sin and had not any power within him to save himself yet alone grant forgiveness. He healed no one in that time nor did he even proclaim himself as the Christ. (Isa 59:2 God hid His face from you). Mat 27:46 - He was forsaken by God and couldn't do anything but die"

Jesus had sinned??????????????? I am at a loss for words.....

Interesting!

don't know 'Brad' and won't toss the baby out with the bathwater.

If Jesus was saying that the thief would this day be with him in the grave then that makes sense.

Please remember that I am NOT ex GRC! before responding. Sometimes there is some truth where error is..........

And to be honest that sounds like something that Jesus would say. He isn't saying anything difficult (Jesus) but simply this: Hey mate you and me are about to get the big "a' and we will both be in the grave today ( Jesus rose out of it - just in case u thought I didn't believe that :-)) Why have we taken it to be something overtly spiritual?

Can I be the first to suggest that Jesus wasn't always 'spiritual'? Wasn't it He who said 'how much longer do I have to put up with u?" ( Go find the scripture) to His Disciples?

And here is a question that will cause dissent. Did Jesus fart?

Come on guys lets understand that Jesus was FULLY MAN AND FULLY GOD. He poo'd!

Over the fear of being 'put out'!

Added later: Just a thought; the  post by anonymous (don't ya just love anonymous... well u have to really the bible says u must :-) inferred that 'Brad' had said that Jesus didn't go str8 to heaven....I thought that was what the bible said.. something about 3 days or something like that......lets not let bitterness get in the way of truth.

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Reply to : AnonymousAnd what of the theif on the cross?The thief on the cross - Pastor Brad Smith 1990An RF publication (but thought provoking anyway):Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember be when thou comest into the kindgom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise"Was the thief on the cross really saved?If he was ...did he go to heaven that day?The word paradise has a particular meaning in the original Greek according to Brad. Paradeisos ...para(around)deisos(a wall, i.e. bordered park or garden ... translated from the oriental origins ... HEB "pardec"

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Look, this RC crap about paradise being the grave is just that...crap.  Why didn't the translators of ALL our English Bibles use the word grave then?  Is there a conspiracy against using the word grave?  No.  Is it a conspiracy aginst tongues for salvation?  No.  It's actually a Revival Centre attempt to change the clear Bible meaning to suit their doctrine...again.

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. "

Revivalists use this verse to again argue that salvation was not given before Pentecost. Whereas most Christians agree that Jesus promised the thief a place in heaven, the Revival Centre would say that this account is mistranslated. Their argument, however, is weak and erroneous. What sort of comfort was Jesus offering the thief? One Revivalist wrote,

Paradise is mentioned three times in the Bible. The root meaning of the word is a park or garden. The Lord and the two malefactors died and were buried in the earth (garden).

The Greek word for paradise used by Jesus here is paradeiso, 'a park, ie. (spec.) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise")' (Strongs). This was a Persian word, taken over into Greek, and symbolises a place of beauty and delight. The definition of the word is not just park or garden but also Eden, paradise. The place where God walked with man in close fellowship and unbroken relationship. The words of Christ to the thief on the cross were not that he would be in the grave with Jesus but that he would be in the Garden of God, Eden, a place of future happiness, paradise.

Paul uses the same word when he writes, 'And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter' (2 Cor 12:3-4).

One simply cannot accept the Revival Centre definition for the word paradise in the above verse. Firstly, it makes no sense to say that a man was caught 'up' into the ground or tomb. And secondly, how does one hear 'unspeakable words' whilst dead in a grave? However, when we define the word properly it makes perfect sense. This man was caught up into God's presence, possibly bodily, where Jesus had promised to take the thief.

Paradise means paradise not grave.  There ends this argument plain and simple.