Our pastors told us that one would have to go out of their way to lose salvation once tongue evidenced... of course changing churches was tantamount to 'going out of your way' to displease the glossalalian infatuated deity. All hope is lost and commiserations are made when someone leaves the fellowship... they are written off as almost eternally dead and looked on with utter confusion and sadness.

Blasphemy of the spirit was bandied about as the only unforgivable sin. Such a sin was daring to equate salvation to a babbless born again experience. A year ago, I thought the most stupid thing a person could do was leave Revival, buy an old Citroen car or watch Crocodile Dundee 3...

Is suicide the other unforgivable sin... what if you ask for forgiveness before your body hits the rocks?

God's grace is immeasurable by any standards. It is far beyond our human comprehension to even get a glimmer of how great it is. I would agree that it is almost impossible to lose one's salvation, however God, as part of that gift, has given us the ability to choose which path we may take in any situation because He loves us.

I strongly disagree with the RCI doctrine that only people living after Christ's resurrection can receive the HS and/or be saved. God is a Spirit and must be worshipped as a spirit. It is not like talking to your boss at work. He operates outside of time and as the Word says, Christ's blood cleanses sin for ALL men meaning ALL men before and after his resurrection. The approach taken by RCI in this matter denies God's power and ability to save who He chooses and implies that all we have to do to be saved is follow a formula. (Repent, baptised, receive etc etc..) No, God wants you to love Him with all of your heart, soul and mind and even if we feel it isn't enough, God understands our carnality and how the mind can be rebellious. He has forgiven us for this, all we have to do is be willing to be moulded by Him through our fiery and not so fiery trials.

Any person living this life, Christian or otherwise, will always be victorious by enduring or overcoming. We all get knocked to the mat during the fight, but it is the one who gets up, dusts him/herself off and fights again who will obtain the victory. It is a Godly principle and there is no greater example of this than Jesus. Those who choose to hide their talent under a bushel and hope the world will simply go away are in for a big surprise. We cannot move forward without experiencing the the things life has to teach us. Never allow anyone to judge or condemn you in these things. Thankfully, God has chosen Jesus to be our judge when the time is right. He understands man's pain.

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To leave Revival Centres is spiritual death. How many times have we heard that. What a load of CRAP.

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I wrote this some time ago...

Some Revival Centre groups, such as the Geelong Revival Centres, openly teach that they are the one true church and to leave them is to lose your salvation. In most other Revivalist groups however, this is only inferred albeit strongly, by the fact that no other viable alternatives of church are ever named or offered. Whichever way they package it, most Revivalists believe that if you leave you might as well be considered dead, unless of course you are restored to fellowship at some point. When you leave the group you are often told outright that you will go back to your sinful lifestyle, that your marriage will become a mess, that your life will fall apart, and that your are like a ?dog returning to its vomit.' That the Revival Centres claim to be the one true church is the linchpin that holds the group together, the hub of its existence. Without the fear this instills, few people would be willing to tolerate the intense controls of a Revival Centre environment. And without the deceptive practices the Revival Centres use to support this claim, they would not have the control they exercise over peoples' lives.

 

I think this is one of the most potent beliefs of the Revival Centres in it's maintenance of members and destructive impact on those who leave.  This is why I suggested it as a topic. 

• I would like to know what struggles others may still be having. 
• And those who have overcome the belief, how did you oversome it? 
• What strategies, conscious or unconscious, did you utilise? 
• What do you believe now?  
• What did you replace the old RC belief with?

I am truly keen to know, this is not some attempt to stimulate discussion...

• I would like to know what struggles others may still be having. 

I have one close relative still fellowshipping in the RCI. I do not know the true reason for her continuing after 3 generations of my family have left for one reason or the other. (Come to think of it, all of these members of my family have been put out) She struggles with this fact alone as she was the last member of my family to join and is now the only one left. My opinion is she enjoys the social contact more than anything but it is no longer a major part of her life as it was when all of our family were togethr there. I think her fear of leaving is also a contributing factor (Just in case they are right - you die when you leave)

I am aware of others still in the RCI and some, (should I publicy say it) still keep contact with me. They see the hypocrisy and the damage the narrow mindedness of the hierarchy causes, but It seems that they live in the eternal hope that one day, things will get better. They are watching me closely to see if the ground opens up and swallows me as they were told it would (I was also told by PD). So far it hasn't happened although I did get my shoe caught in a crack in the pavement once. As for me, my scars will never go, but I am now free to overcome God's way. Amen

• And those who have overcome the belief, how did you oversome it? 

Rely totally on the Lord for my provision. Although my carnal mind doubts occassionally, He has not let me down yet. By leaving, I felt free enough to meet other Christians. - Different parts of the body, same Head (Jesus)

• What strategies, conscious or unconscious, did you utilise? 

Grieved a lot, prayed, got an interest in other's experiences, opened up my mind, changed my lifestyle, bought new clothes and started living again.

• What do you believe now?  

That God's Grace is immeasurable. When I pass on from this world, I will have everything I need with me. As far as some doctrine is concerned, there isn't any except that Jesus is the Son of God, and He lived and died so we may have a chance of redemption. He is the only true example to how a Christian should be. He was smarter by a country mile than any of the 'learned' men and was always ten steps ahead of them. He truly understands man and his thoughts.

I am still Spirit Filled and still use the gifts of the Spirit. I have taken charge of my life in all ways, I do not allow any man to condemn me. That is for God and God alone. I have not only gained wisdom, I now know that I need even more and it will continue to grow until the day I die.

• What did you replace the old RC belief with?

I agree with the RCI that there is only one church. But it aint anything to do with man and his organised get togethers. It is the Body of Christ, all of those willing to submit to HIm (submit in the sense that we are not robots but accepting that His way is the only way, not the way we think it ought to be). The only head is Jesus.

As far as the Word of God is concerned, the Word is God and not a law book. The Scriptures are like prophecy or tongues, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit but written by men (women) describing certain spiritual points that God wants us to know. Everyone's life is different and so the Word has different meaning for different people at a different time. It is for all occasions. What man could think that up?

As far as numerics and BI is concerned, I feel relieved that I no longer have to support theories I didn't believe in anyway. I used to feel ashamed that I had to stand under a Union Jack witnessing in the centre of the city and to substantiate to passers by why Anglo-Saxon people were somehow special in the sight of God. Just after Sept 11, we held an outreach in the city where we (the RCI) flew the Star Spangled Banner at full height when every other US flag around us was at half mast. Weren't we so priviledged? It made me feel sick.

PS. I no longer speak in KJV English (Sayeth the Lord)

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• I would like to know what struggles others may still be having. 

Indoctrination mainly. Although I now know I was taken for a ride, I did have a lot of good times in RCI. Having been in another 'church' before RCI, I already had a lot of religious ideas in my head. I struggle with the breadown of my marriage (whilst in RCI) and the ideas of divorce and adultery, and the guilt that comes with failure. The breakdown of my marriage was the catalyst for my leaving. I started to SEE the hypocrisy, instead of just accepting it. When I see RCI members that I assume will shun me, I will walk the other way to avoid causing them any embarrassment. A stupid thing, I know, but something I must overcome. I sometimes feel that I have led my kids off a safe spiritual path, even though I know they would most certainly have come to grief in RCI as they grew older. These are all thoughts that I struggle with and sometimes the guilt really gets to me. All part of the master RCI plan??

• And those who have overcome the belief, how did you oversome it? 

I never did believe leaving RCI would mean losing my salvation. Only losing my friends. It is quite obvious from the scriptures and other people's lives, that there is a lot more to God and His salvation plan than RCI.

• What strategies, conscious or unconscious, did you utilise? 

I revelled in being involved with other Christians (even some Ex members), which during RCI time, was not condoned. I have learned so much from them about diversity and tolerance. I was such a self-righteous, bigoted person in RCI, but it was all crap. I have been blessed in that I have the benefit of being able to openly discuss such things with other Christians and in forums such as this, and to know that I am not alone in my quest to learn more of God and His ways post RCI.

• What do you believe now? 

That Darcy is the true Lord of the universe, just kidding. I believe in someone called JESUS, who we never really heard that much about in my latter days at RCI. At another meeting I attended shortly before leaving, the talk was actually about Jesus, and about God's great love for us. I thought "yeah, I used to hear about this stuff once" but that was so long ago, before housekeeping, humiliating others, sin and its consequences and tithing became the chief talk topics.

 

I believe pretty much the same as the other posters here. Christ is our saviour and we could never imagine the depth of love shown to us. The true church is something way bigger and more exciting than we could imagine. And our salvation is a personal experience between us and God.

• What did you replace the old RC belief with?

I do still have some 'old RCI' beliefs in there. But in reality, i didnt believe a lot of the stuff anyway all along. I just went along with it because you didnt argue or else. I suppose I believe in belief and repentence, but it isnt a public show. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God and the Holy Ghost, well, my jury is still out on tongues. I still speak in tongues myself, but only when i feel the need, not because I HAVE to. I know the Spirit was working in my life long before I 'received' in RCI. When I look back, I was forced to speak in tongues. You only have so long as a new person to 'receive' and of course, everybody wants to fit in. Although I was alone when I spoke in tongues for the first time, I dont think it was the tongue I use now. I think I just wanted to be able to say 'yes' I have received! And to fit in with my new friends.  You may think me weakminded or whatever but I could see something in the RCI people back in those days (1988) and I wanted the joy they seemed to share. I now know a lot of it was 'forced joy' (be happy or else) but I did have some really good experiences there.

 

I wouldnt say I have replaced the RCI belief, more discarded a lot of it, and gone back to what the spirit tells me is truth. God's plan for me is beyond my human understanding, but I know it'll be good. I know I am answerable to God alone, not some man disguised as God's chosen representative. My life post RCI has not been without trials, but no more so than before I left. I am blessed in so many ways, and have even been out in lightning and not been struck. Surely God would not have missed such an easy opportunity? I must admit I am enjoying not having to race about like a mad woman every Sunday organising my family complete with dinner, gifts, costumes, music, SS lesson material, ties, no offending slogans on clothing etc etc. I can actually go to the movies with my kids or get to fix things around the house, go to the dump etc. exciting eh? I miss my friends, but hey! I am having so much more fun these days.

 

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So it appears that most of the current posters here have replaced RCI beliefs with a more mainstream form of Pentecostal belief.  I too did that for well over 10 years.  It makes sense really don't you think?  Go back to where the RCI went RIGHT OFF THE BEAM and try the beliefs they once subscribed to. 

What I am about to say I say as a matter of fact for myself, not as a patronising line about what comes next for others...  But from there I went back even further to the Evnagelical beliefs that gave rise to Pentecostalism and then from there took another path to a more liberal expression of Christianity.  It seems that Evangelicalism gave birth to some forms of liberal Chrsitianity and at the same time, Penecostalism.  Having found Pentecostalism to be lacking I sought out the other, liberal, path.  I am still walking this path to some degree, trying to make sense of and find some meaning in the Christian faith.  I dropped the Christian label for myself some time ago and have found this is helpful in my being open to what critics and defenders have to say and stops me from blocing other points of view out of fear.  I have spent a lot of time examining the claims of liberalism, agnosticism and atheism.  To be frank, I am not convinced of anything so I guess I am more agnostic than anything else.  I am still open to find God and, if truthful, Jesus.  But so far I have found my experiences of Jesus to be lacking.  Perhaps it is in coming to terms with this uncertainty that I may in fact find true faith in God or even Jesus.  I feel that my faith in God was founded on crap and if I am to find God again then I must destroy the wrong foundations and find him all over again and build on a right foundation.  I hope this makes sense and you can see that I am not anti-Christian or anti-religious.  I am simply disillusioned and disappointed with the paths I have tried.  Longfieldism, Pentecostalism, Evangelicalism and Liberalism have all left me disapointed. 

Now I hear some of you say, "just be open to Jesus, yada, yada, yada..."  Hey, this is what all the isms I have described above say.  I have tried this in every avenue I have explored.  I seriously think I am gonna find a sense of God on a mountain or in a forest one day and it will all make sense to me.  Geez, I hope so.  I have Pentecostal Theology degree (oxymoron I know!!!) and liberal post-grad diploma in Religion and Theology and have read more books on religion than one should possibly read in a lifetime and all that has led me here.  It's not that formal study or intellectual pursuits of God are wrong, I challenge anyone who says so to go and jump in the lake...LOL!!!  But God is in all this and beyond it too.

Ok, rambling now.  I will shutup.

Thanks for your honesty guys.  I was keen to hear where you guys are at and how you have progressed from the RCI/RF beliefs. 

TROY

PS- Merry X-mas!!!

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You know Hojusaram, I really understand where you are coming from with what you are saying and I feel that way a lot myself. Did we ever REALLY know the true God of the universe in RCI? Do the majority of us ever find Him for all our searching? Is there more to "be still, and know that I am God" than we think? The powerful God that we read of in the scriptures - how do you find him? After all the religious answers are said and done, people for the most part are left unsatisfied. Why? Maybe I'll come and sit along side you on that mountain top  

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Reply to Hojusaram:

My expereinces have also led me to this point. Unlike you however, I chose to study the physical sciences hoping that somwhere flying around betweem quantum mechanics and cosmology, I would find the answer to life. Two years before I graduated with my undergraduate degree in physics, I found myself in the RCI being given a lecture on the evils that scientisits have brought into the world and how the Lord would now provide my every need. I have also seen others give up study courses for the greater cause of doing 'The Lord's Work'.

Before that, I guess I was searching for a creator as it was very obvious that this universe didn't happen by chance. I was an agnostic having no previous religious upbringing which in a way turned out to be a blessing as I don't carry any spiritual baggage as far as Christendom is concerned. I did however get involved for a number of years in the occult and have participated in a numerous seances, talking to 'spirits' and the like. I am considered by others to be reasonably intelligent having been highly ranked by the Physcology Dept. of the University of Jerusalem prior to my taking up a position with a spin off group from NASA. (I didn't say this to build myself up in anyone's eyes but to demonstrate that despite having so called head knowledge, I still was able to accept the existence of a spiritual world as well as our own physical universe that we live in). My experience here proved to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that spirits really did exist and that there was certainly more to the creation about us than we are able to observe with our physical senses. I vividly remember in the mid 1960s when I was working at the University of Queensland, thinking how our universe may have been part of an atom within another universe and so on. Every one I told around me thought I was a crackpot and poo pooed the idea, but I have noticed that this concept is now well accepted by the likes of Hawking etc...

The reason I am saying all of this is that through my own experiences, I finally ended up coming out of the RCI and into the world with a far greater understanding of God's purpose. He surely didn't do all of this for fun. We are all very special in His sight and although we certainly may fall, we will NEVER be cast down. I know that when I am faced with the demons of my mind and become fearful with doubt, if I pray and rely on faith only, my prayers ALWAYS are answered with positive and meaningful outcomes. This for me is not always easy to do as I do tend to think analytically by nature but when I look back, that has ALWAYS been the case. I certainly don't go back into the 'Book' to find the answers or to justify my actions but I allow my heart to guide me.

I see the RCI as merely another stepping stone in a long journey towards the TRUTH. There are many things that we simply cannot measure ie Love and certainly the Love of God. So what if the RCI doesn't see it? The Lord WILL show you in His good time, not when we or any other person thinks HE should.

I now understand what it means to enter His Rest. I am at peace with the Lord. Nothing surprises me when I hear others talk about their experiences, all are different yet the same. There is only ONE God of Creation, it just simply makes sense. As I now believe that we are all created in His likeness, if we allow Him to, we will all find Him in the way that is best for each and everyone of us, not condeming or critisizing each other, but in the Love of God. He is the Judge. Forget man's ideas!

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I seriously think I am gonna find a sense of God on a mountain or in a forest one day and it will all make sense to me.

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I've also waited for such an epiphanous moment. I always seemed to be intent of finding a 'moment', whether it be the first time I thought I spoke in tongues or when one of my children was born if an angel would appear at the window. It's the insecure part of me that wants the penny to drop and to be instantly transformed into an all-knowing christian... That's vain and dangerous, I think, because learning and growing is an endless journey of discovery and experience... not an immediate download ala 'The Matrix'.

While watching the underwater documentry "Deep Blue" this week, I had a mountain top moment. The breathtaking imagery of God's creation struck a chord with me. The incredible colour, design and personality of life under the water overwhelmed me. His beauty simply shines in His creation. It fills me with faith to believe in Him without the need to actually have to walk on water to prove His love and existence to myself.

• Every delicate and powerful force in nature reveals His majesty to me
• The vastness of space hints at his intelligence and His boundless wisdom

I used to use 'bible numerics' to prove God to myself, and although I haven't discarded it totally, I can see that I don't need to convert God into a mathematical equation to appreciate his place in the life of myself and my family.

God is simple, such is His unifying feature, but it is a beautiful simplicity that can be seen everywhere in many facets of His creation. He knows we try to grasp Him and therefore, I think, tries to manifest himself in ways we can understand (even at the risk of confusing us more). Quoting - "If you take the time to talk to God, you will find him, and in finding him you will find the greatest joy. He will reveal himself to you, and in possessing him you will understand all else." That is what I believe. That is my testimony.

WonbyONe:

I never saw a chair move or anything like that. We used a type of widgey (???) board. The evidence came from the answers to questions that only I knew the answers to and matters concerning my life. In any case, it is irrelevant now but it did awaken me to the fact that perhaps there was more to this life than what we as humans could see, hear, smell or touch. (Maybe I needed that). I don't consider them to be evil or the like, they may or may not have been of God. (scripture also says to discern) who knows???

I often get bewildered by man and his actions. In the 1970's two voyager probes were sent to the outer planets on an exploration tour. In the late 1990's they finall left the solar system taking about  25years or so to travel about 1 billion km. To one of them at least, was attached a metal plate with an inscription outlining who we were as a race and some of our achievements we had made in th 4000 years of recorded history, obviously hoping that some alien race would one day read it. How pathetic is that? Our nearest star Proxima Centaura is about 4.2 light years away. In perspective, if we reduced our sun (1.4 million km in diameter) to the size of a 1mm period or full stop on a page, Proxima Centauri would still be 10km away on the same scale! And we are pretty sure there is no life there. God is so big that it is way beyond human comprehension to even imagine what He must be like. God must laugh and cry at our foolishness.

I too love to see sunsets, hear the constant roar of the sea, feel the wind and there is nothing quite like a fierce thunderstorm to stir me thinking about Him. Life is too short. How can we measure His love? It is impossible. No wonder He told Adam not to partake of the tree of Knowledge. It has only caused death since. Give me the simplicity of Christ anytime.

I love this debate. Bring it on. My walk through life and sometimes the decisions I've made have often been influence by the beliefs of others. Isn't life about suck and see?

Some people have achieved what I would like to achieve in life so it makes sense to see how they went about it doing it. It may not be for me in the end, but it is a start. Conversely others have failed in their attempts. It may help to learn from their experiences to avoid making the same mistake. I think that is a normal human thing to do.

After living a large proportion of my three score and ten, I have now settled down and am happy with what lhe Lord has shown me, whatever process He has used to attract my wandering attention, be it through making my own stupid mistakes or learning from others. But I am still always open to improvement. (I told the Brisbane Assembly once that the Scriptures said "We should confess our faults, one to another" and I would be the first to do so if I had any. I felt the ground move under my feet and the walls shake as the mix of laughter, groans of discust and snoring eminated from the otherwise peaceful gathering) (Nothing like stirring complacent non confrontational folk into a lynch mob!)

PS Thanks for the spelling correction. Ouija. As you can see, I still got the message across despite my awesome grasp and skillful use of the English language. Actually, we used a glass on a very smooth highly polished round table.

You really need to be quiet and let him get a word in!! YOu have so much going on in your head that He can't get in Troy! So much crap!!!!! Would you want to wade through crap to get to someone? I surely wouldn't.

Oh come on Merry.  You got that rant from a sermon at a Pentecostal church or a Chrsitian book.  I know you did because I have heard that said many times before.  "Yeah, stop thiking about stuff and just go along with all the shit we pump out in God's name."  Sorry Merry, but that IS THE crap.  Not my doubts and questions.

So what you are saying is that God refuses to reach out to us when we think?  Or are you saying that he can't get through?  Well then God is either impatient or impotent.  Either way, he doesn't sound too god-like to me.

So stop it!!!! Turn off all the noise so you can hear Him -

What noises do I need to turn off?  TV, movies, DC Talk CDs, the Christian Channel? 

How do you become aware of God and His power in the first place unless you have an experience with Him?

Was your awareness kindled by God like in the OT when God spoke to people and told them they had a job to do, or is it because there was a need in your life and in your own search for an answer, you found God? Maybe this awareness was there from birth and you woke up one day on your own and decided to have a relationship with Him?

For me it was simply a question I asked myself after experiencing a lot of what life had to dish up, 'why is all of this here and for what purpose'? If you want to have an effective and meaningful relationship with God, you ought to take some interest in what and why He is doing things. Most people I've met want to know and it behoves me to give them a fair answer.

Yes, I do trust in Him but I also curious. It keeps me fired up.

PS. Sorry Merry Menagerie

Forgot to add:

You do still fellowship. Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst. Notice there is no mention of the medium in which we gather, be it air, in an auditorium or building, telephone network, written text, email, internet etc...

We have been conditioned into thinking that fellowshipping only refers to an official gathering (assembly) by men who have an interest in controlling your life.

Now we are FREE to share without condemnation.

Reply Merry Menagerie:

What a breath of fresh air you bring to this forum! I agree totally that God reveals Himself the way you will accept it at the time. But the same goes for all men as well. Some simply have to study man's books because it's all they have or know at the time. Some are even born into families that already have a relationship with Him. Are they looking in the wrong places? If that is the way God wants to do it then surely the outcome is the same and that is what is relevant.

What do you mean by getting into God's presence? How do you do that? I found that God is always with me, He never leaves me. I may choose to use Him or not, that is the freedom He has given us as humans. Surely true love is free and God would have us love Him freely, not as a commandment.

I couldn't agree more that our experience is for us and us alone. Too many organisations say that unless God deals with you the same way He deals with them, then you MUST be wrong and in some cases, condemn you on behalf of God.

Talk to you next year

 Reply Merry Menagerie:

Yes I often used to wonder at the RCI's attitude toward trials and tribulations. As you probably know, talking openly about one's trials was frowned upon, especially at testimony time unless you had already gained 'the victory'. It was implied that if you were going through some form of difficulty or trial meant that your walk and attitude toward God was in some sort of a bad way.

I had several sad experiences over the years, so much so, that when I had a major problem to deal with, the last people I would tell would be the oversight. During my time there, I had been retrenched several times from my job through no fault of my own, ususally due to some form of company restructuring or non renewing a contract. The oversight told me on such occassions that I must have been doing something wrong in my walk, otherwise I would be getting blessed and somehow keeping my job. What sort of positive encouragment did that bring to me? It was just another way of bringing down condemnation I suppose and it certainly demonstrated their total lack of understanding of the modern day work environment (the senior pastor had a cushy well paid job in the RCI for the last 25 years) and questioned anyones attitude who were faced with such trials. The fact is, it has nothing to do with our relationship with God.

Fortunately, I stood fast with the Lord and dismissed their ignorant tones and unhelpful attitudes. I am now far better off employment wise than I would have ever been taking their advice and I certainly don't feel condemned in any way now. Still, it was never considered good advertsing for a prominent member of the assembly to stand up and say he had been made unemployed. It is always the intent of the RCI to show that life becomes a bed of roses if your are 'obedient' as a way of encouragement to others and new prospects. Not good for me. In my opinion, the operation of the spiritual gifts were doused there (I don't necessarily mean just the voice gifts). Oversight would always instruct people how to operate them, some freedom eh? If you didn't adhere to their guidelines, you were hauled aside and told not to be involved until your attitude changed. So much for "so sayeth the Lord" 

I do at times miss the larger fellowship and I certainly had some wonderful times there. But I hated the charade of smiling faces and hollow advice from pastors and others who have absolutely no idea what the power of God is about. What they are really saying is,  'Come along and be happy as long as you don't bring your problems into the assembly with you. (Leave them at the door)'.  What is the purpose in that?

Incidently, your experiences would never bore me. You are a very special person and whatever the Lord has done for you would be exciting and encouraging for others in similar circumstances. I simply have not experienced the form of interaction with God you described as 'being in the presence of God' although I have been in other assembly meetings before where it has been said. When they say 'God is here today' or 'His presence is amongst us'  I did not feel any difference. For me, God is always with me even when I am not conscious of it.

I believe trials and tribulations is the enemy trying to separate us from God. It's impossible to do this but that doesn't stop the enemy from trying. And I feel he attacks those, who he feels, are the biggest threat. Biggest threat meaning, that they have the potential to influence and/or encourage others to come to Christ, and even to keep going and overcoming.

While I understand what you are saying Merry, and my thoughts here won't change your point-of view, I have to disagree.  I actually think that the Bible doesn't teach that the only trials are from Satan.  What I mean is, Satan is not so powerful as to be responsible for all the bad stuff that happens to Christians, let alone the whole world.  I actually think that bad things happen to good and bad people.  It is simply and plainly...LIFE!!!  Life dishes out circumstances to all of us, both good and bad and it is just the way it is.  Look at the Tsunami here in Asia.  Do you think Satan caused that?  Or maybe God?  I think that it was a naturally occuring phenomena of shifting plates under the earth and the consequences of that were devastating.  But it was neither God nor Satan...it was nature.  I guess you can blame God indirectly as he created the world and the laws of nature, etc.  But I don't believe it was his will to kill all those people...especially the children.  Or when my father got a brain tumor...it wasn't fatal...but he was forced to undergo surgery and it was both painful and scary for him.  The thing is, his brother died of the same thing years before.  It seems that genetically, this thing runs in my Dad's family. It occurs naturally and while my Dad found his early enough to get through, my uncle didn't.  Both were good family men and were not Christians so Satan had no reason to attack them.  Was it God?  No, it was life.  This is a philosophy to life that is not contrary to Christianity in any way.  It says that God has created the world and in a way that we face nature and imperfection no matter how good or bad we are.  It is simply the way it is.  Rabbi Harold Kushner made these points well in his book, "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People".  A book I recommend highly.  If you want to believe Satan attacks believers then that is fine but I believe it would be an exception rather than the norm.  I just don't believe Satan and his demons are that powerful.  Anyway, think about it and let me know what you think.

As for the presence of God. I know what you're saying, I know God is there with me all the time too. However, I don't always feel Him. In my everyday life as I'm doing the gardening or hanging washing, I know he's there but I can't say I feel very spiritual at all. But come worship time, when you are being spiritual etc.. Then you feel Him. That's what I call being in God's presence. It's hard to explain.

Well Merry.  This is a very contentious issue because of how much people enjoy worship and the sensation that it brings.  Music is a very powerful manipulator of the emotions.  This is one of the arguments that Chrsitians use against 'worldly music' and the effects they claim it has on people.  The effects of ambient house music at raves (even on those not on drugs) is obvious if you ever get a chance to see it.  Anyway, the point I am making is that is why you 'feel' the presence of God (as you call it) when in the worship time at church.  The music is the key.  Take away the music and the impact will be greatly minimised.  This is why Benny Hinn plays music while he does his act.    I too used to lead praise and worship in church and I can also testify to seeing the effects seemingly wash over the congregation as well as my own times of feeling soothed, etc.  But that is the power of music and a positive group dynamic.  Even King David could sooth Saul by playing his harp.  I think as people get into the music, relax and switch off the hustle and bustle of life, they calm down and relax.  It's a kind of meditation and something not only for Christians.  Many religions use a contemplative style of worship including music, closing your eyes and focussing on the divine.  Anyway, more food for thought.

Sorry, above post was mine!!!   I forgot to login.

I also wanted to add that I don't think praise and worship is wrong or evil or anything.  If you draw peace and a sense of God's love for you then who am I to tell you otherwise.  All I am saying is that it there is a psychological explanation for it and it's apparent effects and feelings that go along with it.  It is impacting emotionally but to say that it is 'God' is a bit presumptuous in my opinion.

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Jesus when I am helping someone out; when I am consoling someone in need; when I give my time to chat or share with someone; when I'm talking about Him with someone; when cooking for someone who needs food. When I'm serving people I feel like I'm worshipping truthfully and spiritually.

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Worship!

Believe what you want. But when I'm listening to worldly music I am not in worship and I know that. I'm not in the presence of God. I'm not worshipping in spirit and in truth. I could be at a concert and really enjoying myself and really getting into the music..but i"m not worshipping God.

But when I'm singing spiritual songs...it's the words...not the music that makes it about the Lord. If you get the same soothing hillsong music and put hateful and evil lyrics to it, it loses it's affect.

Hang on Merry.  This can easily be explained as your 'openness' or 'expectation' to the music and the words.  When listening to words about God and your religion then you will relax and 'get into it'.  When listening to Enya then you won't switch into worship mode.  But I bet if you truly, HONESTLY tried then you could.  I am not saying that you can get into worship mode while listening to Metallica, but I bet you could if you listened to some mellow song sang in a foriegn language and believed it was a song about God.  Could be an interesting experiment.

Yes you can worship in other ways and any time that I'm talking about God and praying or meditating on God I'm in worship but I may not always be doing that. But at worship time at church is a time where you drop everything and think of the Lord. It's the perfect opportunity (for me).

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship.  According to Paul here, the spiritual act of worship is a life of service to God.  Again, I am not saying you don't get anything out of what you call worship.  But (1) it isn't what Paul calls worship; and (2) it can be explained psychologically.

You may have seen stuff Troy, But you mustn't have experienced it. Because if you have then you wouldn't have said that.

Of course I have Merry.  Of course I have.  Please don't dismiss my experience as invalid simply because I interpret it differently to you.  Once upon a time I experienced all you described and interpreted it just as you do now.  I felt the sensations of peace and the 'presesnce of God' as we called it.  The emotional release and all that went along with it.  I was even heavily involved in the Toronto Blessing/Rodney Howard-Browne 'manifestations' and got 'hit by the power of God' and all that entailed too.  I don't care how easily you dismiss me, I have experienced it Merry.  And now I realise that it is emotional manipulation using music, etc.  One must be open to it to be sure, but the worship leaders encourage being 'open to it' don't they?

You underestimate the Word of God if you think it's merely the music that makes it spiritual.

I thinik it is about more than the music.  It is also about the right frame of mind, the suggestions of the worship leaders, the openness and expectation of those involved.

And...my anecdote up there is ONE of the times that I felt that I was spiritually in God's presence. There's been other times. When I was miscarrying my 4th child where I dropped everything and immersed myself in worship...yes the music helped me but it was the words that set me free. I was no longer afraid of losing my baby. "I will be happy with whatever Lord". If I lost the baby, I knew I would be okay. If my baby lived I knew I would be okay.

I am glad to hear that it got you through a difficult time.  It's amazing what faith can do huh?  But again, that doesn't mean the music is as 'spiritual' as you may think it is.  Sorry, but it simply isn't the case.

Sorry if I waffle on LOL But there's 4 posts above mine that I needed to address. You may not believe what I believe and that's okay. I guess you dont' believe it because you haven't experienced it yourself.

No Merry.  Explain it anyway you want, but I have experienced it and I know it is emotionalism and a manipulation of the emotions mostly through the use of music, but other things too as I have mentioned above.  Sometimes it happened at church, sometimes at homegroup, sometimes in my room by myself.  Music was a common denominator every time.

But hey, it's your belief and just because I held it and don't hold it anymore doesn't make it any less of a viable belief system FOR YOU.  I don't want to scare you away from this forum.  But you know how you feel about Revivalists who believe their stuff and you feel you have woken up to the flaws of all that?  Well, I feel that same way towards them and also towards you in your belief system.  I feel I have woken up to it all and find it lacking...just as I do the RCI beliefs.

Just a couple of comments if I may in regards to spirituality and music.

I don't know who here are musicians but I have made a study of the effects music has on the human pysche. In my humble opinion, the first thing to understand is that the human mind and all that goes with it, is carnal and that our senses of sight, sound, touch, taste and smell (there may well be others) simply provide the signals from our physical environment and surroundings via our consciousness and thoughts to who we are (spirit or ego). In other words, in the natural, we live in our minds. Our spirit is who we are, our being, life force whatever you imagine it to be, there are few words in the English language that describes it accurately.

Our emotions too are clearly carnal and are of the natural mind but I believe are based on spiritual concepts.  It seems that scripture often refers to things both in heaven and on earth (spiritual and natural) and we are told that Jesus experienced them. Even God changed His mind on the odd occassion and certainly got angry and so on...

The effects of music is a very difficult subject to understand and it is highly unlikely anyone will ever understand why it affects us the way it does. The sound of a major chord (fundamental, 3rd and 5th) often brings on the feeling of positiveness while a minor chord in the same key (fundamental, flattened 3rd and 5th) has a soothing or even saddening effect. Marketeers know that playing particular type of music in a department store may alter customer's moods and buying habits. Some people may even buy a product that they may otherwise not have, had the music been different or non existant.

I don't see any difference in an assembly environment. As a chorus leader, I was often advised to 'rev up' the choruses before the afternoon talk. To me, I often thought that it reminded me of the good old sing-a-long that used to be held in music halls during world war 2 as a way of encouraging people to keep up their 'spirits' (I wasn't born then but my parents had told me). We also know that armies used musicians, often in the front line, as a way of stirring up soldier's emotions into a fighting mood and to scare the living shit out the enemy. So it goes on...

Music is a very powerful mood altering mechanism. An interesting point for me was that the words or lyrics often didn't play a significant role in the mood change as much as the music itself did. I remember many incidences where the words sung by certain folk were changed into something less meaningful or edifying without anyone feeling less excited. ('I will make you viscious old men', etc etc..)

I guess the point in all of this is that music (and even other sense altering processes) may strongly affect our natural mood, but I don't believe it changes anything spiritually. It may even tempt the flesh to do something it shouldn't or vice versa, but eventually, the spirit will have the final say. I am not advocating we should not have music in our lives, I for one love all forms of music (except C&W) and during a trial, it can help you through another day (like a drug) but we should be careful it doesn't hoodwink us into believing in something that we otherwise wouldn't. Its affects are also greatly amplified in an assembly or crowd environment and in certain circumstances, may even change the way we feel about certain issues momentarily (such as accepting something we are told in a talk). Sooner or later, when reality regains it's foothold and the problem or trial we are facing still has not gone away, it must still be dealt with without emotion clouding the issues.

I often thought how would an RCI meeting run without music? My wager is that very few would be attracted to it and the cold hard raw facts of spirituality may have a totally different meaning for those who do. Your relationship with God should be intimate and between you and God only and be free from any influences from the outside. (By all means go to the department store to buy what you need but when you are there, don't be tricked into buying what others would like you to spend your hard earned money on). The fact is, it will always come back down to the trial of your faith.

Reply to : Merry Menagerie

Cool Merry. 

I reckon we should just leave this topic alone.  Not because it is heated or anything but because we both are sincere and convinced of our thoughts and points of view and that is the way it will stay I am sure.  Besides, this is a former Revivalist forum anyway right? 

I do appreciate your openess to discuss this stuff and I certainly appreciate the way you shared some very personal stuff.  It takes courage to do that and I admire you for it.  Keep smilingIII

TROY

Reply to Merry Menagerie:

Please do not misunderstand me. God deals with each and everyone of us in the way best for both us and God at that time and it is not up to anyone else to deny the way God chooses to do so. I have had considerable healings and miracles in my own life, sometimes where music is around, sometimes not. My carnal mind often says impossible, but when I have totally relied on faith, then the miracle seems to happen. I am always overjoyed when I hear of a sister or brother gaining victory no matter how large or small it may seem.

What I am saying is the the carnal mind (which is affected by music) is against the spirit of God. Rom: Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Perhaps the mind of our spirit is soothed but the healing comes from God, irrespective of our surroundings or circumstances.

During a training course I once attended, I was taught that it is almost impossible to predict what one man may or may not do, but it is far easier to predict what 100 men will do. In other words, you can pretty well tell what a mob or gathering of people will do because they are often affected by the others around them. Some people become very brave and outspoken in a crowd but not so, one on one. (Have you witnessed to a group of people and found that despite rejection of what you are saying, one person will seek you out separately to find out more without subjecting himself to peer pressure - Remember Nicodemus?)

I have been in assembly meetings where individuals have been hyped up by the music, singing and the excitment it creates (and not just in the RCI). To me, this is not a spiritual experience but a very carnal one. The excitment often causes people who would otherwise be non chalant or bordering on a quiet siesta, to become more exhuberant and agreeable to what is being said, however, taken to the extreme as it has happened in the past, often results in mass hysteria that has on the odd occassion, killed people literally as a result.

Words also may be meaningful but I have had years of beating my head against the wall at the RCI because the words used in a particular chorus or song are considered unacceptable. What a load of rot! They are always open to misinterpretation. Unfortunately, the person who considers them unacceptable himself has had due to his own experiences, some preconcieved notion of the meaning of the words and have conjured up in his mind something he considers to be not of God. Words may give you confidence, you can read the scriptures till the cows come home but until you exercise faith, you cannot please God.

Prayers are answered by God because He 'hears' or is open to your prayer spiritually and if you are faithful and believing in your heart, then He is able to work. As I am unfamiliar with the term turning to Jesus, I assume this what you are referring to.

I'm just saying that you underestimate the Word of God, whether it be put to music or not...to change lives and to bring spiritual fullfillment. And you underestimate how the the songs played at a church service could bring on the Holy Spirit. To compare it to shopping center music shows, that that's all you have experienced.

Perhaps you are right and I am missing something here. How be it though, I NEVER underestimate the Word of God. The Word of God IS God, always has been and will always BE. It is not to be confused with man's languages or words. I have many times experienced its awesome power in my life. I agree I have never experienced how songs played at a church (assembly) can bring on the Holy Spirit. As a musician, I have been playing Gospel music for over 15 years both in the assembly and in outside public performances. I have seen it bring happiness, laughter, excitment, foottapping even crying etc etc, but I have NEVER ever seen it bring on the Holy Spirit. To me, this particular experience is very intimate and is between the individual and God only.

I referred to shopping centre music purely as one example but the effect of music on peoples moods is well understood and used considerably by all sorts of people who wish to manipulate other unsuspecting souls into doing something they otherwise may be reluctant to do. Maybe I am wrong but it is what I have experienced personally first hand, not just what I have read about. Only God knows the real truth..

Talk about flogging a dead horse... geesh...

Music is but one way in which one may worship. If that is your particular style... go for it. I do it for about one hour out of 168. I spoke to some members of the Salvation Army today. They were very interesting to explore things with. Apart from the tamborines and uniforms I could really appreciate them. Service to those in need seems to be their major outreach (instrumental bands notwithstanding).

The New Testament offers little in the way of musical instruction. If it was such an integral part of bringing on the Holy Spirit (like a snake charmer might lure a cobra out of a basket) I'm sure Paul would have given some major emphasis.

I did start a thread a short while ago that focused on music and worship. I would really encourage posters to contibute under such headings to make the site more easily navigated by new users.

The purpose of this forum (in my appreciation) is two-fold:

1. Somewhere for ex-revs to let off steam
2. and MOSTLY to set up some alternative ideas for Revivalers who may be exploring

To help the latter purpose and to keep threads reader friendly, appealing to the audience we would love to get the attention of, I try to consider the following:

1. Breaking text up into paragraphs.
2. Bullet points
3. Not too much 'in-house' arguing for the sake of continuing a conversation.
4. Avoid repeating a rebuttle ad-nauseum to 'win' an argument
5. Keeping on topic
6. Don't dismiss a good post because it delves into heavy philosophy that may be over one's head
7. Don't be paranoid into thinking that replies are personal attacks

But hey, rules are their aint no rules... just good netiquette. I am always thinking about the fresh ex-revival member who may be perusing this site. I am conscious to the picture being presented to them. I want them to use this site as a way of finding answers to the questions that may be niggling at them. I hope that they feel free to ask, post and join in, and not feel that the threads are dominated by a few attention seeking individuals such as myself. Sometimes, a few words are better than a lot.