Hi there.  Welcome to our little shindig.  I hope you find something beneficial here.

I am really sorry to hear of your upbringing in the GRC.  It sounds really awful.  I bet you had a lot to work through with all that.  I guess it's a fairly common story though.  I was lucky in that I didn't have parents in the group even though I was a teenager when I joined.  Can you believe I was a teen and voluntarily went to meetings?  LOL!!  I guess I have always been a sucker for punishment.

Finally a while back I left. For a while I was so thirsty for anything that would offer spirituality so I eagerly ate up everything - I opened myself whole-heartedly to other christians and churches, I even got involved in Vineyard.

Why do you say, 'I even got involved in Vineyard'?  I remember they were much more of a graceful kind of group.  I am sure they taught a different salvation message to the GRC, but were they really that bad?  Funny enough, Brett and Sabrina also got involved with Vineyard.  Were you ever involved with Brett and/or Sabrina after they left the GRC?

I went to all the bible studies, Christian concerts - anything you can imagine. Such a sudden freedom leaves one confused, but I felt so spiritually free and at peace, and I continued to pray and read the bible.

But once I started becoming slack in prayer, I started down a decline. I began drinking a lot, and getting very involved with non-christian people and their lives, and the local rock scene. I wasn't happy and I knew it wasn't right.

That's interesting.  While you were praying and 'walking right' then you really seemed to get a lot out of 'other churches'.  But when you stopped praying and all that then you not only backslid but became more critical of these other groups. 

Another point I find troubling is that you state that getting involved with non-Xian people and their lives is somehow wrong.  I am sorry, but that is a very GRC attitude.  In fact, many healthy churches (ie non-cultic ones) encourage people to maintain relationships with family and old friends.  They even encourage you to have non-Xian friends so you don't lose touch with the world we live in and become too immersed in a Xian sub-culture.  I challenge you to find me one verse in the Bible that teaches NOT to be involved with non-Xians.  Again, I am troubled and somewhat concerned for you friend.  You sound like you have left the GRC but the GRC hasn't quite left you.  Please don't take offence at that.  I am just worried for you.

Now I'm happy to say I'm on my feet again, more than recovered, and thirsty for only the pure word of God. Thru mistakes, revelations, prayer and the simple fact that absolute truth never changes I realised that while most of the other churches I'd gotten involved in did some, most things right, it never sat quite well that after someone simply said a verbal prayer, they were 'saved'. 

And yet, you got a lot out of those other churches initially.  Do you think it is at all possible that as you 'backslid' you began to feel REALLY guilty and in that guilt you naturally went back to what used to relieve you of the guilt?  That is, back into the GRC mentality.  You see, it is entirely possible that as you began to feel guilty, your cult mindset kicked into overdrive.  This is because the cult mindset, guilt, manipulation, etc all go hand in hand.  Of course, I am only speculating about all this.  But you see, it is entirely possible that you swung from one extreme to another and back to the first one again.  It was CS Lewis who said that fear of one extreme will often drive us into the arms of another.  Perhaps you were afraid of where you were heading with your newfound freedom and so retreated back into what you knew and what you felt secure in...the GRC teachings, even if you never returned to the GRC.  You sold your freedom for a sense of security.  Maybe...maybe not.  But something for you to ponder all the same.

I know the Bible never changes and neither does the need for ABSOLUTE total salvation, by being baptised in full immersion by water, recieving the Holy Spirit and KNOWING you have by speaking in tongues.

I was a Xian for a long time.  And while I am no longer one, I do know that the Bible does not teach what you are preaching here.  Sure, you can string a series of verses together to make it appear that the Bible teaches what you say it does, but the truth is that it doesn't.  I may have my problems with my former faith and you may well discard all I have to say based on the fact that I am not a Xian anymore, but I do know my Bible very well.  And it doesn't teach the RCI salvation message.  And neither has any group or denomination right throughout history until the United Pentecostal Church (also recognised as a destructive cult) began to teach it early last century along with a non-Trinitarian view of the Godhead.  If you believe that Xianity and the Bible are true then at least have the intelligence to preach what the Bible says.

I have brought friends along to these other churches, and they were told they were christians after praying when i knew for a FACT that certain friend of mine (whom i lived with) was still confused and not at all impacted or changed. Only after I've seen people recieve the Holy Spirit have I really seen them transformed. I had a friend going to a certain Christian church for months believing he was a Christian while at the time he was still smoking pot, sleeping around etc! (He's not the only one. Others lie thru their teeth etc.)But since recieving the Spirit there has been a definite change in him. It's so sad to see so many people led astray by the belief that going to heaven is so 'easy' and that it 'works' for everyone.

You're making very little sense here.  So it is only the baptism in the Spirit that changes people's lives?  You need to get out more.  There are millions of Xians out there who have never spoken in tongues and don't smoke, drink or screw around.  They pray, read their Bibles, attend church regularly, are missionaries, Bible teachers, pastors, loving parents, etc.  I KNOW some of these people personally.  At the same time I KNOW people who speak in tongues who drink, smoke and screw around.  Some did so while in the Revival Centres.  Your 'examples' are only isolated incidents and not truly representative of the 'norm'.  I am not trying to defend a certian branch of Xianity here, but I can't stand by and watch you spout off and tar every other non-tongue-talking Xian with one brush.  We could both present 'cases' of people from both sides of the tongues experience who live both 'good and 'bad' Xian lives.

The RC's were majorly wrong but at least they take seriously the choice to follow Jesus and truly do so (at least in the way that they know.)

Hang on.  On the one hand you criticise the RCs when you disagree with them and then laud them when it suits you.  Let's break down your argument a little.  Here we have Tony, Lloyd, Noel, John, etc etc and they all speak in tongues and teach the necessity to do so but they also run cults.  Stop and look at Noel Hollins.  You saw his behaviour with your own eyes.  The guy runs a cult, destroys people's lives and and now you say he takes the choice to follow Jesus seriously?  Methinks not.  Did you know that Jesus spoke more about the abuse of religious power more than he did about sexual immorality?  Take the time to read up on that one in your Bible.  You will find I am telling the truth.  It was to the Pharisees that Jesus used his most harsh language, not the sinners.  This is what made Jesus so appealing to his followers.  He stood up to people JUST LIKE NOEL AND LLOYD and welcomed the sinners.  He got involved with and in the lives of the (then) non-believers.  This is something that still impresses me about Jesus.  And this is what got him killed.  You sound more like the Pharisees than Jesus ever did. 

Selah...

On another note before i begin I do not raise myself up as spiritually superior over anyone.

Bullshit.  You only say that because that is exactly how you sound and you know it.  You are putting down all these other churches and even lauding Noel and his way of doing things.  You have LONG way to go my friend.  A LONG way to go.

I'm well aware of my weaknesses. But I notice a trend with those leaving the RC's. I do not say this is the case for all, but from what I've been hearing, it seems pretty common that those who've left become so overwhelmed with sudden freedom, as if released from years of captivity in a dark cage and suddenly become exposed to light, that they completely go the wrong way away from God.

What?  They walk into the light and lose their way?  Your metephormakes no sense.  I agree that that many people leave the RCs and go too far with their freedom to the point of being self destructive.  But this is not the only response at all.  Many ex-RCs go into other churches and live very good 'Xian lives' and never do what you did.  It is only the ones that go way off the beam that make any noise.  And of course, these people are gossiped about in RC churches as it reinforces (in their minds) their reasons for staying in the RCs.  And some of the stories you hear are not even true.  Poor Brett and Sabrina were said to be crazy and such by the GRC people after they left.  Who knows what else was said about them.  I know ex-RCI people who left, deny the RC doctrine and pastor churches and all that.  And what about me?  I may be a heathen but I am well educated, love my wife (and never cheat on her), drink moderately, run a successful growing ESL business in China, am well liked by my peers, and the self praise could go on...  My point is, not everyone who leaves your way of thinking goes to shit.  Some people get on just fine and dandy without the RC crap in their lives.  You should try it.  Actually, something tells me you might just want to.  It's not intuition or anything, because I KNOW you're not happy with that way of life.  No one is.  No one.

I've heard ex-members are saying Jesus is not God, the bible is not God's word, some have become completely immoral etc.

So what's worse?  Abusing yourself or abusing others?  Staying in the RCs makes you a co-conspirator to all that goes on in there, even to the point of shunning your own children.  I would have another read of the Gospels if I were you and ask yourself who would Jesus hang out with?  Noel or or your rock and roll 'ex-friends'?  And what's to say that people who don't share your version of the truth are wrong anyway?  You've been wrong before.  Jesus told you to look for the fruit, not a statement of faith.  And again, leaving the church doesn't mean you become 'immoral'.  As a matter of fact, I think what Noel does is far more 'immoral' than any sexual act ever could be.

Just leaving one wrong church doesn't change the fact that the Bible is very clear on what is truth, what is moral, what is right. If you say you are a Christian you are certainly expected to keep the precepts of the word as to holy behaviour.

You, my friend, have it all wrong.  Holy behaviour is more about mercy than sacrifice.  Jesus said that one by the way.  It's about how you treat others, not about whether you smoke or drink or not.

I've had a lot of interaction not only with him, but also with the pastors of Adelaide, Sydney, Mooloolaba, Ballarat, Warnambool and have been to the RC's in Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines etc.

It sounds like ti.  And to use Snakechick's analogy, it seems you have been 'pickled' by their vinegar.  I think you need to deprogramme youself a lot more before you start telling other people what's right and wrong or how to live.

There is life after the RC's. But such a 'foodchain' of spiritual abuse should not be allowed to continue. Neither should the downward plunge into sin.

I agree with you but would change the word 'sin' for 'self destructive behaviour (of course I would, I am not a Xian anymore).  But it sounds to me that while you feel confident, you need to look at yourself before judging others and other churches.

That is all I have to say and I probably won't be back.

Okie dokie.  Nice to meet you anyway. 

Hey, did you see the way I argued using the Bible?  And yet, not a verse reference anywhere.  I was a real Bible slingier in my day I tell you.  Ah, such a waste.  Imgaine if I had spent all that time studying medicine insyead of religion.  I could be saving lives in Africa by now.  Ah, such a waste. 

Its weird how many ex-members still hold their black and white view of the world. I know I do. But I had it before I went near an RCI. Many of the ppl I was in fellowship with left and went feral, something I could never understand. These were the ones who shunned me when I was kicked out for telling the pastor he was unloving. One of them was smoking 70 cones a day for five years in fellowship, and using brothels until he got caught, and still would not look me in the face. However, I have enough going on in my own life to be worrying about what other ppl are up to. Jesus loved everyone regardless of their behaviour and I feel I should too.

I thought we were all in fellowship together because we loved God, and each other. Even after 11 years out I still have not got a handle what was going on in that place. I still cant understand whether they loved God like I did or they didn't. I didn't grow up in the fellowship so had a fairly self destructive past which I wish I never had. Then to see a whole crop of adults in their thirties having the youth they missed out on in self destructive ways in front of their children was something I will never understand or condone.

I still love God and have been in a church for 10 years, which I stopped going to six months ago. I am burnt out with the whole church thing. I am sick of the politics and the bullshit. Churches seem to be run like businesses now and that makes me ill. I haven't been to church for 6 months, and I have had one phone call. I realise that no one cares about me any more than they did in the RCI. Are there any churches who know what real love is? I have always thought love is the basis of Christianity. Am I missing something?

I still follow the word of God, don't trust Christians any more, feel ripped off by my Christian experience (by ppl). I still suffer from depression and have not been healed by God. I am always accused by Christians of doing something wrong to cause my own sufferieng but no one can tell me what it is or how to fix it. All I want is for ppl to care about me as much as I do about them. Is that really too much to ask?

Merry, people like this are still caught up in Lloyd and Noel's interpretation of the Bible (except for BI) and NOTHING more than that.  No matter how you slice it, they are a product of the RCs and may be for a long time.  Have a look at the RFs, CAi and any number of small independant ex-RC churches out there.  yes, they do exist.  They long ago left Lloyd but the carry on as if he was still calling the shots.  Pray for them and better yet, pray that they don't continue to damage others as they have been damaged.

Reply to : Galien

I know I talk a lot on here these days.  It's because I am on holidays and am stuck at home with my inlaws who, while great people, speak very little English.  This forum is my ONLY English social interaction aside from my visits to my wife in hospital.  So please forgive my numerous posts.  But one good thing is that my Chinese is getting heaps better while here.

Its weird how many ex-members still hold their black and white view of the world. I know I do. But I had it before I went near an RCI.

That is one thing I have REALLY had to deal with.  I was looking for black and white answers after leaving the Church and found very few.  This left me in a state of ongoing anxiety because I was so used to having answers for almost everything, or at least ways of dealing with the uncertainties of life.  Upon leaving I was confronted with so much chaos.  It really was taxing emotionally.  I could tell you that there were no black and whites anymore, but I still craved them.  I see many ex-Xians on the bopards I frequent who have gone the atheist route and seem to have become fundamentalist atheists.  It really is just another kind of fundamentalism and so it satisfies that craving, but I feel it also stunts emotinal healing and growth.  That's not to say that atheism is the evil, rather that fundamnetalist attitudes are. 

I still believe in God.  Is he Xian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, etc?  Yes and no.  He/She/It is none of these and yet all of these.  I think God is above and within all these man-made constructs which attempt to explain and touch divinity.  Tell me that doesn't sound like a wishy washy mess?  I am sure it does.  And that wishy washy-ness is exactly what causes me anxiety (less so than before though).  But I have no alternative than to wade into this chaos of belief and search for the divine.  I certianly cannot retunr to a fundamentalist mindset, even of a different flavour.  I know it's flaws and restrictions all to well to ever become a fundamentalist of any kind ever again (touch wood).

So Galien, I understand your need and desire for a B&W mentality.  I share it, like an addict wanting 'one more taste' of a drug that he knows is only killing him.  So I refuse to go back to it.  That is not to say that I will never return to a Xian faith.  I mean, I probably won't but never say never right?  Many have lost faith intelligently and then later returned to a more mature, non-fundy faith.  NT scholar Marcus Borg is one of those (his books are well written and had some great things to say, but are not where I am at...yet).  The man could run rings around me in regards to the Theology and Philosophy, so who am I to scoff at him?  But I tell you what, fundy Xians would label him anti-Christ.  But I remind myself verbally often (yes, I talk to myself) to not crave B&W answers as I will only be dissapointed.  And any I find are probably a flawed illusion.

I thought we were all in fellowship together because we loved God, and each other. Even after 11 years out I still have not got a handle what was going on in that place. I still cant understand whether they loved God like I did or they didn't.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  It's their journey.  I think you will never have an answer to that one.  As you said, its not about you anyway.

I didn't grow up in the fellowship so had a fairly self destructive past which I wish I never had. Then to see a whole crop of adults in their thirties having the youth they missed out on in self destructive ways in front of their children was something I will never understand or condone.

So maybe for some, this self destructive road is a part of healthy growth?  Maybe some need it for a time to teach them about their oiwn mortality and the fruits of such a lifestyle.  I know I did.  I think a lot of the wisdom I have now is because of all the crap I have gone through, most of it by my own choosing.  One thing is sure, rules and regulations only work for a time before people shirk them off and do things their own way anyway.  This is why the membership time for MOST Revivalists is limited.   Let's face it, there are for more ex-RC members than current ones.  The RC hard-line doesnt maintain members but drives them out.  This is why the RCs have never grown as big as other Pentecostal denominations who are far more moderate.  Anyway, I am rambling...

I still love God

Believe it or not, I love God too.  I was pondering that the other day and thought to myself, "I still love God."  Maybe that is because I am not ready to truly face the chaos or maybe it is because he is really there.  That's why I like Merry.  She let's God be there for her and doesn't seem to think God demands much of her.  That's a good way to see God I reckon.  If he is so big and immense then what could I offer him anyway? 

and have been in a church for 10 years, which I stopped going to six months ago. I am burnt out with the whole church thing. I am sick of the politics and the bullshit. Churches seem to be run like businesses now and that makes me ill. I haven't been to church for 6 months, and I have had one phone call. I realise that no one cares about me any more than they did in the RCI. Are there any churches who know what real love is? I have always thought love is the basis of Christianity. Am I missing something?

Yeah, it hurts.  I am sure you feel abandoned.  But, you left the fold and so you are now on your own.  Welcome to the world (ie the planet, not the Biblical negative concept).

I still follow the word of God, don't trust Christians any more, feel ripped off by my Christian experience (by ppl).

You and me both (except the bit about following the Word of God).  You see man, when you realise it ain't working then it's time to deconstruct it and see why.  It a long, painful process but it's worth it.  Reality is not such a bad place to live.  BUt you know what, the Xian thing isn't all bad, even if it is crap.  I learned a lot from my Xianity and still possess some great values that I learned there.  I learned about grace and self sacrifice from a Baptist church I attended and even more about grace and social justice from a Church of Christ.  All very great values and things worth holding on to.  Sure, the RCs and AOGs made me feel inadequate and destroyed my self esteem and I feel WAY ripped off by that, but I did turn that around later and now have a good life.  I am not suggesting you 'be positive'.  Rather 'be realistic' and balanced.  See the good and hold on to that.  Chuck out the rest.

I still suffer from depression and have not been healed by God. I am always accused by Christians of doing something wrong to cause my own sufferieng but no one can tell me what it is or how to fix it.

That's just their ignorance about the illness.  My parents were just as lacking in compassion to my sister-in-law when she went through a serious deprtessive episode.  AND THEY AREN'T XIANS.  You will face this kind of bullshit from society in general.  You just have to shut them out and get help from where you can truly get it.  If that means non-religious counsellors then so be it.  I actually think they are better at times for Xians as they are outside the Xian box and can see things that Xian counsellors refuse to admit or see.

All I want is for ppl to care about me as much as I do about them. Is that really too much to ask?

I don't think it is too much to ask Galien.  But it is both non-Xians and Xians alike who desire this.  And it takes work to find it.  You can do it.  You really can.

Be good to yourself Galien.  Everything else flows from that.

TROY

Thank you Troy for your kind words. I am not seeing much hope in life for the moment but because of ppl like you obviously there is some somewhere. I will just keep looking for it.

---

Its weird how many ex-members still hold their black and white view of the world. I know I do. But I had it before I went near an RCI. Many of the ppl I was in fellowship with left and went feral, something I could never understand. These were the ones who shunned me when I was kicked out for telling the pastor he was unloving. One of them was smoking 70 cones a day for five years in fellowship, and using brothels until he got caught, and still would not look me in the face. However, I have enough going on in my own life to be worrying about what other ppl are up to. Jesus loved everyone regardless of their behaviour and I feel I should too.I thought we were all in fellowship together because we loved God, and each other. Even after 11 years outI still have not got a handle what was going on in that place. I still cant understand whether they loved God l

---

Dear Galien

I left the 'Adelaide' GRC  4 years ago. I feel the same. No-one was really happy there once you really got to know ppl well (and they told you truthfully) (if they weren't scared of you dobbing them in!) They were probably doing all sorts of things. How would you know??

When I left, I was very confused.and scared and I didnt get one phone call, so much for the "leaving the 99 and going to find the lost sheep" !!

I still have the B & W view of things, but I try not to. It is very difficult to change this way of thinking. I have tried to loosen up for the sake of my children, but it is extremely hard!!

I feel very ripped off also for 19 years of my life wasted, and often wonder what I would be like now without it. I have no self esteem, can't make decisions, have suffered depression and feel sometimes my life is out of control and there is nothing I can do about it,

Because I have now had a couple of different jobs, I have met some ppl who are lovely, but I found it very difficult to maintain friendships.. Anyhow, it does slowly get better I think. The key is probably making changes slowly and forcing yourself to go outside your comfort zone.

Best wishes Galien

Firstly is it legal for u guys to use the rci and rf logos on the site or is that some form of intellectual property theft?

Nevermind about these worldly matters tho. I'm just gona babble a bit now.

I think it's sad when people turn back to that elitist point of view that there is only one right way. In fact Paul himself in Romans reprimands 'those who only eat vegetables' and 'those who eat whatever they like' for criticising each others ways of life. For both do what they believe is right for the glory of God. So in a sense there is nothing wrong with believing speaking in tongues is essential as long as u don't judge the person who doesn't.

I am happy when I see there are so many people that can walk away from the revival churches and find freedom, because THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. There is no freedom in being full of lust and then becoming a slave to ur desires. I've been down that road too after I removed myself from the rci. In the same breath there is no freedom in limiting urself to the values that caused u so much pain (this is especially for vanilla twist - even tho she's never coming back). And really what an insult to God's power.

To u dear Galien, I'm sorry u've had such horrible experiences with churches. I don't know where u've been but there are a lot of awesome places u can go that provide a fantastic support network. I could be wrong but it sounds like u have some deep issues that need ressolving and u must not only for ur spiritual health but also for ur physical and mental health. I'd love to offer u any support I can give. I've often felt angry that I care more bout people than they do bout me and I think part of me getting over it is just accepting that part of what Jesus says is giving as much as u can, in love, and not expecting anything in return. U probably have a better understanding of that love than most Christians. Don't feel down about it. Feel happy that God's given u a special gift that can bring a lot of good. I hope I'm not patronising u coz I don't know ur full story. But I think I know whwere ur coming from. Troy's right u will find it and it's not too much to ask. This world can just be a screwed up place but there are pockets of hope in everything. Don't give up.

Churches certainly do operate as businesses but sometimes u can find the real church hidden in its people and that's truly awesome. Anything run by humans have an element of wrong in it. I prefer dealing with animals to humans.

To those who have lost faith, I hope u guys find the same freedom and joy that I now feel in living by faith. Not so that u can enter the kingdom of God coz I don't think any of us an really understand how that works but becaus eit makes for an awesome existence. I've been lucky enough to have experienced super natural things that have been both evil and good. Thank God they've been mostly good. But after seeing all this I can't deny that God is real and knowing that I want to serve him. But I won't try to convert u guys back coz it's not my business to.

Hojusaram or Troy, u may think that ur bible knowledge is a waste but I found it really impressive and it made me feel a lot better after being made to feel sick after reading what vanilla twist has to say.  (Having said that I'm not angry at Vanilla Twist but I'll keep he/she in my prayers coz I think they've been decieved somewhere along the way.) You may have saved lives with ur words too. So thanks. Good luck with ur chinese. I'm sure u'll pick it up quickly because u seem to be very talented with words.

I myself spoke in tongues at least once truly. I was reading the bible out loud and literally lost all control of my voice and mouth and began to speak in tongues. I don't know if it can really happen any other way. But I suppose it can. I think it's wrong how kids are pressured to speak in tongues and so many get coaxed into it. I couldn't speak in tongues after the first time and was reprimanded for it and told I wasn't 'earnestly seeking the Lord." I then got coaxed into it and I only do it now if I really feel it coming from my soul and not just me feeling like I have to pray like that. I certainly don't believe the way to salvation is through speaking in tongues and neither should anyone that understands the message, from what I can see.

My life has not changed in Christ until now, it wasn't thru the awesome power of speaking in tongues tho maybe it should have been. .Even now, although I endeavour not to 'sin' if I interpret from the bible I know that no matter what I do I am a sinner. And so are all u guys out there. I've been thru the whole black and white rci thing then the self destructive 'sinful' thing and then not believeing in God but living a balanced life now I've got my faith back and I actually feel healthy. I know it doesn't work that way for all u guys. Whatever ur thing is that makes u feel healthy keep with that.

Well I hope I haven't gotten too Jesusy for all u guys. Thanks for the space to speak.

CJ and S1SMN

If having an imaginary friend that explains all the good that happens to you (and an imaginary enemy for the bad) helps you get through the day then go for it.  Whatever works for you.  I know that believing in God is not a reflection of intelligence as many supra-intelligent people have and do believe in the Xian God, so I am not calling you stupid.  Please don't take offence.  But I do feel that Xianity as I experienced it comes at too great a cost to one's self-esteem, emotional growth and maturity, critical reasoning skills and general well-being.  While there are certainly some benefits to believing, I think that in the end it's not as benefical as it first appears.  It just helps you to deal with the now and make sense of the chaos of this existence.  But hey, maybe one day I'll get a burning bush in my backyard and change my tune...again.

Reply to : Calamity Jane

Ditto to you.