There was mention of a news item recently to the effect that a lesbian couple bringing up a boy child that the boy wanted to have his penis removed to be just like his “Parents”
There is some talk of allowing this to take place and are administering hormone treatment to effect change to female.
What sort of a role model is this for kids that same sex marriages are allowed?

Poor kids won’t know which way to turn when they grow up (pun intended)

Hi Ian,

Does not surprise me either, this Government doesn’t seem to be answerable to any one these days
they just go ahead and get what they want no matter the right or wrong of it.

I did my own small survey here in Geelong asking people whether they approved of same sex marriage. Out of the eighty I asked,
only four agreed and five didn’t care.

Where is the 57% in favour of it, according to these lobbyists?

I know it may not be much of an indication but one would have thought a higher number for it out of
the eighty.

Maybe I should ask in other Cities and Towns.

Ralph.

Hi Dog

Ralph, what was your reason for conducting this survey? Just a personal exercise out of my own interest 

How did you frame the question? In the light of the publicity on the subject I just ask the question; “How do you feel about Gay marriage?”  

And how did you choose/find the demographic in which to conduct your survey? I asked people from all walks, on the streets and in the cafés

Not such a big deal, hey?

Be well,

Ralph.

PS I was surprised Geelong must be pretty straight. Lol.

There have been discussions before on this forum, about homosexuality, fornication, adultery etc. (from the Churches’ POV) and a question comes to mind at what point does one actually become ‘party’ to these offences.

A conversation with an acquaintance, at a coffee shop a couple of days ago, on the current issue of ‘gay marriage’, led to him jumping out of his chair and leaving in anger.

Heaven knows, I must have hit a nerve when I suggested that homosexuality, like any thing we do, is of our own choosing and/or decision.

His reply was that one is ‘born’ homosexual and it is nobody else’s business.

Refuting this, I quoted, “that one could say then pedophiles, criminals etc are born that way” (or similar). Oops! I sure was talking to a wrong person on this subject.

As has been discussed, fornication etc is not such until a physical act has taken place; can two people of the same sex still have the same desires and cares, and live together in a “marriage” situation but refrain from penetration (male) and not be considered as homosexual etc.?

And of females; at what point be considered as such?

Ralph,

Contrary to what Dog apparently promotes, I believe the issue is everyone's business given that the gay lobby is seeking to redefine what marriage involves. It is, then, as much a (practical) social issue as it is a (theoretical) theological one.

From a strictly practical standpoint, should the current Australian government pander to the Greens further and broaden the definition of 'marriage' to bring homosexual unions into the pale, I doubt I'd lose a wink's sleep. After all abortion on demand has been a fact of life in this country for years, so why not homosexual marriage? From a theological perspective, homosexuality is clearly numbered among Scripture's taboo acts. Therein it is described as something that runs contrary to (a) God's plan for humankind, and (b) his established natural order. As such, homosexual marriage can never be the practice of Christians, despite the fact that it may be socially accepted (or even legal) in the wider community. The moral and ethical standards that apply to followers of Christ have always been higher than that which applies to society more generally.

Dog made a very valid point in his rejoinder to you, and I thank him for doing so. Christians often seem to be predisposed towards judging others, and then by standards that simply don't apply to non-Christians! Consider, Jesus hung out with the socially dispossessed and marginalised. He ate with prostitutes, drunkards and the ritually 'unclean' of his day. Consequently, I reckon that were he still physically walking the earth now, he'd likely as not be ministering to those the 'religious' of our time denigrate, including homosexuals! This begs the obvious question: why don't more of the people who claim to be following in his footsteps do the same?!

Moving on ...

As I've opined elsewhere on this forum, homosexuality involves a physical act. It's the physical act which is expressly condemned, and so homosexuality should be distinguished from homophilia (i.e. same sex attraction). The former is sinful, the latter isn't. Practically, a homosexual can't enter into God's covenant of marriage if his/her partner is of the same sex; consequently, such a person must be prepared for a life of celibacy should he or she wish to follow Christ. In this respect a homosexual is no different to an unmarried heterosexual. When a homosexual seeks to be numbered in Christian community, his/her sexuality becomes the business of the Church just as it does for the heterosexual. Equality for all :)

Blessings,

Ian

Dog

OK, firstly I wasn’t judging anyone. The word is quite explicit that homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, unbelievers… will not enter the kingdom of God. I didn’t write the bible, regardless of what you and I might think the truth doesn’t change. I didn’t say anything about anyone being right or wrong, that is judging. . Everyone has a choice to believe or not to believe. Jesus teaching of ‘non-judgment’ is quite clear as is the teaching of right and wrong in God’s eyes.

The changing of the idea of morals in society is much more prevalent than what they were years ago and is becoming so removed from what the word of God wills for us. 

I believe we all at some stage in our walk on this earth do see “what its like” to live the world through their windows by our own experiences but no, we do not have to judge others based on our own experiences but by the word of God.

The chap in question chose to ‘chide’ our conversation when I touched on the point he obviously had personal issues with.

Basically Ralph... I'd suggest what they do is none of our business.  Why do you feel the need to "consider" them one way or another, other than a fellow human being, like you and me?I believe it is our business, when the very idea of well proven fundamentals of marriage and good morals etc that shape our society are seriously threatened by misinformed and ignorant people.

Dog,

You seem to be portraying me as some sort of self righteous twitt. Far be it from me to think I am better than anybody else.

Read my original post, the question was ‘at what point does one become ………..?’ 

Ian provided a reasonable answer on the matter.

I go along with what you are saying, howbeit, as Talmid said, “you seem to be ‘disingenuous’ in your concept of grace”.

Let’s not forget, God gave the Law to mankind to reveal that which is contrary to his plan of creation. A ‘school master’, if you like, to show man he is a sinner and sin will only lead to trouble and death.

Jesus and the cross of course is the only hope now for mankind.

By pointing out to people what is and isn’t according to scripture is not judging or putting a person down, but ensuring they have a chance for a better life and future. What ever their choice is, so be it.

Back to Gay Marriage, I have a right to speak up and object. I don’t wish to have people in government pushing their personal agendas into legislation. Next thing the schools will have to be promoting this as part of the curriculum.

Isn’t it enough what is being taught to kids today, things that are detrimental and destroying the true and good values that this society was built on. This just adds to the weight of parents and families that do care.

Good afternoon, Dog.

To reinforce what Talmid's already pointed out, given what you've written I really don't think you properly understand what's at the heart of the Christian concept of grace. Furthermore, you may have forgotten that God himself labels people, and then divides them into one of two broad camps: (1) those who are righteous; and, (2) those who are unrighteous. You've added a third category into the mix, but it's one which you skate perilously close to the edge of y'self: the self-righteous ;)

Blessings,

Ian

Mmm,

Considering the whole of this conversation, bottom line then; it is ok to allow for non-Christian Gays to marry as long as they accept it cannot be an ordinance of God.  Hope this government realises that.

I’m glad I am a Christian.

Ian

I do like your last sentence ..... You don't think we're supposed to do the whole 'salt' and 'light' bit? 

Standing up and being counted even and especially in times of persecution?

Chips

⁹ And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, ¹⁰ so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, ¹¹ filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

About not judging.

“The Bible says that Christians should not judge the morality nor the behaviour of others”.

This always comes from those supporting things like same-sex marriage.

Luke 6:37 is often quoted.

This is true, but taken out of context.

If we look further, we find Jesus did not relieve us of the need for discerning right and wrong.

Christians are not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously (Matt 7:1-5) but it does not preclude another person's basic character and we evaluate between good and bad people (sexual immorality in this case). Not a case of judging but pointing out the wrong and showing which direction to go. for ones own good.

Teaching about the Kingdom, of course, should be given in accordance with the learners spiritual capacity (V6).

Sadly,people don't realise that God is 'sovereign' and it is he that judges good and evil.

The bible is written and instruction is given for our own good, in this life and that to come.

Ralph

Hi Mothy,

I don't know what is your point here, whether they are homosexual or not?

If one wishes to express their sexuality outside of marriage (ie one man and one women only) by having a sexual relationship, be it same-sex, adultery, another's spouse or whatever, is a SIN and will not go away unpunished.

What is written and my own experience, there is always a negative response having gone against that law set down by God, whether it is immediate or in time, there is always a reaction to it.

Old testament law, if broken, had an immediate punishment dished out to those that sinned.

In the New Testament that law is no longer imputed toward those that believe in Christ and repent of their actions. The “law is written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit” and do not continue in sin.

This does not apply to those of unbelief and continue in their activities as those that “Live by the law, will be judged by the law” and held in store at final judgement. Notwithstanding the negative impact of it now.

I see the whole narrative of the bible is showing us God put down the law(moral) for our own well being and good, in this life and that to come.

Going against it we reap the consequences.

Grace and peace

Ralph.

PS God puts much importance on sexual immorality: Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body........ 1Corinthians 6:12-18 

Hi Mothy,

Slavery is an interesting topic. Simple answer from me, I believe is immoral in oppressing fellow mankind. The other side of the coin is of course ”slavery to Christ” and how Christianity justified it in the past. Lots of reading to do on that. Thank God slavery is illegal today.

Let me say my of point of view (Noetic structure “recognises the differing degrees of certainty, firmness, and conviction w/ which people hold their beliefs”), comes from reading, listening and excepting those that have done much more research and learning in languages (eg Ian's knowledge of the Kione creek), philosophy, different themes of bible studies and so forth, notwithstanding my own experiences on my religious journey.

There is much mystery in this life that is beyond human comprehension and understanding, we can only accept it, or not, by reason and logic.

We can define 'sin' as really as breaking of a rule set down by our creator. God gave ‘Adam and Eve’ only one rule and that was not to eat of the tree of good and evil (whatever that means) but they broke that rule, thus sin and evil comes into the picture. Mankind became separated from having a relationship with God.

It is a tragedy what happened today with the school event, brings us to morals, sin and evil. All three interact.

We question why there are tragedies and disasters. God seems to get the blame any way.

Two types of evil exist; moral evil, the troubles that man brings upon himself by wrongful deeds and natural evil (gratuitous evil), disasters like earth quakes, weather patterns, tsunamis, etc., which sometimes termed “acts of God.”

One can easily determine what is the moral evil that is brought about by man’s wrongful actions himself and suffers the consequence, but the question of natural evil why it happens or for what good reason does it happen is much more complex.

From a Christian POV, God allows these things to happen to bring about either a greater good or destroy a greater evil.

I believe only from the bible (Sola Scriptura) can a satisfactory conclusion be decided, but one has to believe first.

Ralph.

(sourced from N T Wright, Bill Mounce and bible)