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| Title: Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) | |
| Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Revival Churches > The Revival Fellowship (TRF) Discussion | Go to subcategory： |
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Uncoolman
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Date Posted：12/07/2008 2:21 AMCopy HTML Quotes from Darryl William's talk on the shunning of ex-members
*Click link below to listen to the original recording. "People have left us... how dare they leave us. Now they have this wonderful chance to start afresh, and they can't get it right either, supposedly." "We don't go to their weddings, we don't have them at our weddings... we don't have anything more to do with them, otherwise we're being unscriptural. We have family members that have left; we sometimes have to have them back at our house. We don't have their friends though, we don't have their church members, we don't have to invite them back to our houses." "I'm not saying that we're the best, although I think we are. This is a fellowship second to none." "Don't see them, don't invite them, break your friendships, finish your relationships, it's all over now." "If they have a baby, good luck to them, but it has nothing to do with you anymore." "If they have a wedding, good luck to them, but don't go to it, if you get an invitation, refuse it. You might have been best friends - you have nothing more to do with them" - Melbourne 'Pastor' Darryl Williams Click here to listen to "Darryl-Williams---Dont-go-to-their-weddings" |
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MothandRust
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#1
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：12/07/2008 12:32 PMCopy HTML 'Pastor' Darryl
Williams (of Revival Fellowship) gives the shunning orders!
*Video annotation should read 1998 The quotes were from the infamous Adelaide Revival Fellowship meeting at the Vogue (15/2/98), in which 'pastor', Darryl Williams, says some controversial things.
Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
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shiningdown
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#2
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：19/07/2008 8:19 AMCopy HTML My husband and I are the very people who Daryl was speaking about at this particular talk. We had stopped going to the RF in Janurary, but we were invited to (and happily went) to a good friend of mine's daughter's 1st birthday party. We must have been naive, but we wondered why there was some sort of tension there when we walked in. Then it finally happened - a big blow up hapened between my friend, her brother and his wife (who happened to be Daryls daughter). They said that they had to leave because WE were there! It was horrid and my friends daughter's birthday was ruined. Had we known or predicted what would have happened we would never have gone. Needless to say - the next day Daryl gave his now famous 'talk' and my poor parents (who still attended the RF at the time) had to sit through and endure the whole meeting knowing full well what he was actually referring to. It still blows me away to this day!!! |
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olgreyhair
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#3
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：23/07/2008 12:07 AMCopy HTML Its a long time since i have been called a poor parent
especially by a daughter ( and great mother ) as ( beauty) full as mine LUV U heaps dad |
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shiningdown
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#4
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：23/07/2008 8:39 AMCopy HTML Awww shucks!! Must have been the wonderful parents that I had growing up, who made me who I am today. Love, apprecite and miss you heaps xxxx
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Tarquin the Magnificent
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#5
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：23/07/2008 11:53 PMCopy HTML Honestly, what awful ranting and raving, quite unbelievable. How on earth do people put up with this kind of stuff? Fear I suppose.
I sometimes wonder if people who can say things like that make the people closest to them unhappy. I remember some RF wives who were not treated very well by their "oversight" husbands, but they take it. I guess they feel it goes with the territory. All very sad. |
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MothandRust
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#6
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：26/07/2008 12:07 AMCopy HTML Reply to shiningdown My husband and I are the very people who Daryl was speaking about at this particular talk. We had stopped going to the RF in Janurary, but we were invited to (and happily went) to a good friend of mine's daughter's 1st birthday party. We must have been naive, but we wondered why there was some sort of tension there when we walked in. Then it finally happened - a big blow up hapened between my friend, her brother and his wife (who happened to be Daryls daughter). They said that they had to leave because WE were there! It was horrid and my friends daughter's birthday was ruined. Had we known or predicted what would have happened we would never have gone. Needless to say - the next day Daryl gave his now famous 'talk' and my poor parents (who still attended the RF at the time) had to sit through and endure the whole meeting knowing full well what he was actually referring to. It still blows me away to this day!!!  Hi, thanks for responding. I'm curious to know whether Williams has since apologised for spewing this dispicable diatribe ten years ago. I wonder if he heard the recording again now would feel an absolute idiot for preaching such vile or would he nod and smile like an idiot saying 'amen'all the way? I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt and hope that he cringes whenever he remembers being as soulless as this. The hate and fear you can hear in his voice is surely something RF try to avoid now isn't it? When I heard this recording I assumed it was RCIers talking about the members that left their ranks and their new doctrine of unforgiveness, but I was surprised (and not surprised also) that it came from a preacher from RF. I know this sort of violent 'shunning' isn't so vigorously yelled at other Revival Fellowship assemblies, and I bet many would argue that this sort of shunning is discouraged nowadays. The recording was only ten years ago and I remember being the sort of person who would have agreed with his views on how to treat people who left our church, or cult, or whatever the hey you want to call it. Even if this isn't spat from the pulpits anymore, you know it's sitting there quietly under the surface. It's mellowed now but the groundwork has been laid. "If they're not with us they either should be or never were. If they choose not to come back then keep subtley hinting to them that they are missed..." and then not so subtley suggest the world is ending soon so they better change their minds quick. The Revivalists (like countless other churches) truly believe that their slack-jawed hackneyed interpretation of bible text and home written fellowship rules are the closest thing to what they believe the church originators (and God) would have their lives and meetings run. To leave their fold should obviously be an action that deserves pity, prayer and a dose of distain. Such a belief set will keep them labelled as a sect because they willfully choose to bring discord to family and friends that quite rightly choose to leave their faux fold. So I would be interested in knowing if an apology was forthcoming from DW. Did he repent publically or does he still exist as a leader of people with this perverse mindset at his core? Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
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olgreyhair
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#7
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：27/07/2008 8:57 AMCopy HTML I am surprised that this talk has emerged after 10 years
I doubt whether Daryl has apologised for the talk, because probably 95% of people hearing it thought that it was a great Ra Ra talk ( go on give it to them Daryl ) See thats why a lot of people stay at the RF out of fear of A) they will lose their salvation if they leave and B) They will lose all their friends and if you have been an attendee for a number of years then in the main they are all the friends they have |
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Ex_Member
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#8
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：18/11/2008 11:03 AMCopy HTML Yes Darryl WIlliams is still a Pastor in the RF in Melbourne and yes he still preaches the same thing. Just before I left late last year the last talk I heard from Pastor L in adelaide was "Delete people who have left from your Myspace". so messed up. |
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Uncoolman
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#9
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：15/05/2010 6:34 AMCopy HTML gustasmaximus
Why did Jesus perform his first recorded miracle in cannan at a "wedding" I DIDNT KNOW REVIVAL CENTRES EXSISTED THEN???...oh thats right he left straight way after makin top quality wine from water and said "goodluck" and had nothing to do with them.......derr........................the Gospel according to Darryl Williams.His family bar his wife have left this cult.Why dont you preach what Jesus taught and not some interpretation maybe the Ku Kux Klan would preach.I sat trough that sermon and i knew this was not the Gospel of Christ.The Devil condems and the Holy Spirit gives encouragement. tiberiusprime I am finally living my life after leaving this cult. I am at last realizing the full potential the God created me for. This is a narrow-minded, cultish, elitist and fear-based "church" I gave 12 years of my life to RCI and then the RFI - elitist, cultish, fear-mongers barttheanorak Why the Jagger lips logo as a matter of interest? I was listening to Sticky Fingers while perusing Aimoo just earlier. SoDammnnHood omg stfu Prizm4 Sounds like The Potters House (aka The Door) 89 10 months ago I grew up in RCI. I was told not to come to my brothers wedding at the RCI. We were friends but I just wasnt invited. I went anyway. I was talking to my mum about some close friends I grew up with, her response was "They are not with us any more". I said "are they dead?" and she said no they just don't go to our church. The RCI breed fear, lies and ungodliness. joanekins123 i was a member of this cult for 3 years,and i felt very brain washed and un happy.but it wasn't until i left that i started living life again. stupid mind fucking anxiety filled political bull shit fuck the r.c.i standinvictory well come to the Revival Fellowship then, because we dont do that. hbb8672 As Christians we're our Brother's Keeper. Every Oversight has the Moral obligation to to preach the truth unto all the world. Be warned of preaching Xenophobia, or any form of intolerance that is not of God. The Lord sought out the tax collectors, adulterers, the unclean that they may be saved. Walk away from your haughtiness, less the Lord shun you at that moment. Be warned, " For you say look at the acts we performed in your name." But The Lord says, " Turn away for I never knew you." abrarm Jesus sacrifice is all about love and His love is for everyone, sinner or saint. We all will go to heaven not because don and don't, not because what we have done, what we do or what we will do, coz from the beginning we all are looser, no one qualified. but because of His mercy and grace we all will go to heaven, believe him and accept him, that is all about.He is my qualification. AMEN keljesusgirl This is SO true- I used to go to Revival- and thank God I dont anymore- I was dumped by my best friends because I left...and when I hear this it upsets me and disgusts me because I know my friends wouldnt have treated me like this if they hadnt been brainwashed to the max by this cult. Jesus would NOT want them to shun people that leave. They aim to make people that leave- feel isolated, loneley and deserted- in the hope they will go back to the cult. It iscruel and evil what they do. dudeis You left the Lord your friends stayed with the lord. We dont aim to make you feel isolated, lonely and deserted what you feel is YOU left the Lord which is the Life. Pastor darrly is one of the true pastors! Your friends did the right thing. Bobdeondkiller Jciscoming, you are a sad deluded fuck! drooblemeister This group is scary! Not because they speak in tongues (I do), but because this is all they are concerned with. Also problematic is there end-times and 'us vs them' mentality, making themselves to be martyrs when they are not. This is a cult! They do not recognize that the majority of believers throughout history did not pray in tongues but, like everyone who confesses Jesus as Lord, had the Holy Spirit. stand in victory Jesus also said many will be called but few will be chosen when the last trumpet sounds... follow Christ not the croud. clayman502 wow, would you listen to yourselves. Isnt the first thing we all should worry about is being a good testimony? Instead of pointing fingers all the time..... this is in the past people. MOVE ON ezzie (ha ha)... says the person who also watched this clip, and found the time to point their own finger at the people on here who've commented... and also commenting on it your self! very nobel, you are! pirateblaggard This is Noel Hollins, my group is the one true church even though i broke with Longfield, obey the ministry sinners. ezzie Both Revival Fellowship and Revival Centers are way out of line! Who posted this?.. you just cut n pasted the same bits throughout the whole thing. (this pastor sounds raving mad)!!! Kaylen your a break away group yourself ask longfield |
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MothandRust
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#10
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：14/09/2010 10:05 AMCopy HTML A Tribute to Mr Williams
Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
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Uncoolman
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#11
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：17/09/2010 6:50 AMCopy HTML Just a pity you left out the Antiochus Epiphanes rubbish!
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Uncoolman
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#12
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：19/09/2010 3:12 PMCopy HTML I was shunned by people in the RF before I had even left. My dad was a pastor and left the fellowship; I immediately noticed that all my friends from other assemblies stopped contacting me (I was in a smaller assembly). When I saw them at camp I questionned them and they told me they had been instructed not to contact anyone from my fellowship. I was so hurt. I had been going through such a difficult time with the huge change of my parents leaving the fellowship and the support of my 'brothers and sisters' would have helped so much. The oversight obviously felt my feelowship should be quarantined to ensure no 'poison' spread to other assemblies.
For me, this was another huge piece of evidence that RF is in general more about sticking to the letter of the law than about LOVE. |
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Uncoolman
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#13
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：20/09/2010 2:18 AMCopy HTML Hi Guest,
As a matter of personal interest, would you mind if I inquired of how long ago you actually left the RF?? Was it recent or some time ago ?? I am in the process of dealing with a number of folk who have left the old RF I was once a part of 17 years ago and I keep getting the story "everything has changed since then." And "we are softer now and more lenient".. But I have serious doubts that this is really the truth of the current situation of the present circumstances of current RF membership. To put it bluntly, tradition never evaporates that easily, especially when it comes to rules such as shunning. Blessings Meta |
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prezy
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#14
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：20/09/2010 2:19 AMCopy HTML Reply to guest:
Quote:For me, this was another huge piece of evidence that RF is in general more about sticking to the letter of the law than about LOVE. I suggest you read Galatians 5:22-23 ¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Epios
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#15
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：03/10/2010 8:00 AMCopy HTML Reply to Guest I was shunned by people in the RF before I had even left. My dad was a pastor and left the fellowship; I immediately noticed that all my friends from other assemblies stopped contacting me (I was in a smaller assembly). When I saw them at camp I questionned them and they told me they had been instructed not to contact anyone from my fellowship. I was so hurt. I had been going through such a difficult time with the huge change of my parents leaving the fellowship and the support of my 'brothers and sisters' would have helped so much. The oversight obviously felt my feelowship should be quarantined to ensure no 'poison' spread to other assemblies. For me, this was another huge piece of evidence that RF is in general more about sticking to the letter of the law than about LOVE. Hi Guest, The paranoia of the old RCI concerning people who leave and their possible influence on relatives/close friends who remain must still be alive in RF. Ostracising has not always only been confined to those who leave, there have been people within who've spoken of having had the cold shoulder treatment and sometimes it's at the behest of an oversight. Unusual to say the least that oversight should instruct some to cease contact with others in the same church. There would be few who would dare to disobey a directive from the oversight even to offer their support to those desparately in need of their love and friendship, as you were. No comfort that when you approached your friends they explained their strange behaviour as obeying the instruction given them. What a pity the leaders feel the need to act in this way with no regard for those made to feel outcast, no apology for any mistakes made, just an assumption that those who were hurt will get over it quickly and get on with their walk. You were wise to leave. Epi ps The back-up scripture which is often used to substantiate the safeguarding of the flock and doctrine from bad influence is from Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them." |
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Epios
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#16
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：03/10/2010 8:52 AMCopy HTML
Hi Meta, I think a things have changed. They couldn't continue as they were as overlords and I'd say they would have adjusted a few things accordingly. Guideline 10. Members are asked to notify a pastor if they intend being absent from meetings. Private arrangements should not clash with assembly meetings. Relaxing the pressure on people to have to attend every meeting in itself would bring about a feeling of things being softer and more lenient. A good old sense of freedom. They can well afford to lighten up on some things because they will still draw people in and keep them by their authoritative claim of having the true message of salvation, unchanged from the day of Pentecost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Well that is, less the rushing mighty wind, the tongues as of fire and the languages which were understood. Then there's the narrow way toward the eternal hereafter which they and very few others walk as opposed to the broad and wrong way which they say almost all other churches take. The changes they've made must be quite a relief for members. Epi |
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Uncoolman
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#17
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：03/10/2010 10:39 AMCopy HTML Is Darryl Williams Revival Fellowship or Revival Centres International?
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Uncoolman
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#18
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：03/10/2010 6:58 PMCopy HTML Reply to Guest Is Darryl Williams Revival Fellowship or Revival Centres International? Revival Fellowship, although Revival Centres pretty much endorses every thing he says, from what I have experienced since leaving. Especially when folk rang up 6 months after we had left saying that they hadn't seen us around (it took them that long to realise we had left, and they were actually "friends") You tell them, then you get the old "O well all the best for the future take care", which is RCI for "get lost your not one of us now you back slider , The dog returns to its vomit, and those that went out from us are not us, and all the other misquoted and out of context scripture they use etc etc, They take this pretentiously moral high ground and not have anything to do with you because their "in the church doing it the only way". How do I know all this, because I was one of them sadly and did exactly that, especially in 1995. But God has mercy on the misled who come to repentance. Both organisations are pretty much two peas in a pod apart from the morals dilemma that caused the split in 1995. |
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Epios
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#19
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：04/10/2010 1:46 AMCopy HTML Hi I'm_out,
Do you know if RCI still hold to the same morals policy that Lloyd introduced in 1995? These rigid rules can and I'm sure are broken and more likely by those at the top when it involves family, relatives or best friends. As for the 'others' well there'll be a way round it if they do sin morally and wish to remain RCIers, they would just have to keep quiet about it, don't reveal, mum's the word. I doubt this policy would have stamped out immorality, just added another dimention to it, cover up. In RCI Williams was a very aggressive speaker, even quite scary. I just listened again to his '98 RF talk and he hasn't changed one bit. That same feeling of fear at just listening to his wild bumptious manner is still there. Epi |
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Uncoolman
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#20
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：04/10/2010 5:40 AMCopy HTML Hi Epios, I’ve been out of there at least 6 years now, so I don’t know of the specifics, but I’m pretty sure what you have written is pretty close to what happens, one can only speculate, But your dead right about the only real thing its done is to send the those who have slipped up, simply underground, and doesn't really solve anything. Once folk had a chance of redemption, now its all hidden in fear and guilt and keeping quite or else they would never be able to come back and risk being ostracised from the family and friends. I really only know about what Alf has written. I recently looked up the fundamental scriptures they use to justify kicking someone out in the "MESSAGE bible", (this is included in many of the on-line bibles). About the Incestuous Man. in 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 2, this sheds some interesting light, I have heard other Pastors quote from it in the US so I thought Id look it up, see what you think. 2 Corinthians 2 ( The Message ) 5 Now, regarding the one who started all this — the person in question who caused all this pain — I want you to know that I am not the one injured in this as much as, with a few exceptions, all of you. So I don't want to come down too hard. 6 What the majority of you agreed to as punishment is punishment enough. 7 Now is the time to forgive this man and help him back on his feet. If all you do is pour on the guilt, you could very well drown him in it. 8 My counsel now is to pour on the love. 9 The focus of my letter wasn't on punishing the offender but on getting you to take responsibility for the health of the church. 10 So if you forgive him, I forgive him. Don't think I'm carrying around a list of personal grudges. The fact is that I'm joining in with your forgiveness, as Christ is with us, guiding us. 11 After all, we don't want to unwittingly give Satan an opening for yet more mischief — we're not oblivious to his sly ways!
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Mr_Jingles
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#21
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 3:00 AMCopy HTML Ditto, I find that is often the case with so many Revivalist undersight LOL
Perhaps someone should buy them all a few mirrors so they can have a look at themselves. mj |
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Epios
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#22
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 5:30 AMCopy HTML Hi I'm_out,
Thanks for your reply and scriptures from The Message. I find The Message a good companion to use when studying scripture. The apparent ongoing unchecked immorality required immediate discipline by removal of the man from the Corinthian Church. The Corinthians did follow Paul's instruction (although according to what I've read a lot went on between the two letters) and the person was brought to rependance. In 2 Corinthians 2 : 5 - 11 Paul writes that "the man who caused the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me" has to be forgiven. "Most of you opposed him and that was punishment enough" so they were to forgive, him reaffirm love for him and comfort him. To enforce undue punishment would not serve any good purpose but cause grief and discouragement to the repentant person. Very clear instruction on what to do in a reconciling community. A strong point seems to be made that Christians are never free to withold forgiveness upon repentance. I think the mark of a good church, which is the expression of Christ to the world, would have to have the qualities of love, forgiveness, acceptance, reconcilliation, restoration, comfort etc etc and in good supply. They are non existent in churches which would banish people for life. Regarding your last paragraph about verse 11 this is just my own opinion but I think this situation had become a mess and had given Paul much heartache. The continued (undue) alienation of this person had caused division and strife and given a good opportunity for Satan to step in and cause complete havoc, so the church coming together in unity to forgive was urgent. I wonder if Paul referred again to that situation in 2 Corinthians 7 : 6 - 12 when he writes about Godly sorrow:- "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation." Perhaps the salvation process would be what was meant here. Maybe some groups don't fully understand Godly sorrow, repentance, acknowledgement of sin and confession to God, reconcilliation and the process of salvation. God Bless Epi |
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Didaktikon
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#23
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 10:08 AMCopy HTML Out et Epi.
A word of caution, if I may? I'm not at all convinced that the man mentioned by Paul in his second letter to the church at Corinth is the "incestuous" man of First Corinthians. As the standard commentaries indicate, there are very good reasons why exegetes over the centuries have doubted the connection. Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Uncoolman
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#24
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 10:24 AMCopy HTML Reply to Didaktikon Out et Epi. A word of caution, if I may? I'm not at all convinced that the man mentioned by Paul in his second letter to the church at Corinth is the "incestuous" man of First Corinthians. As the standard commentaries indicate, there are very good reasons why exegetes over the centuries have doubted the connection. Blessings, Ian ... me too !! Meta |
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Uncoolman
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#25
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 12:11 PMCopy HTML This was a subject I looked into years ago, the message I got out of the passages was that the Corinithian assembly was being ostricised for their lack of morality by condoning the actions of this/these person/s. It was the church members that actually repented. The character mentioned in the second letter may have been of a different event of that time.
Ralph |
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Uncoolman
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#26
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 12:51 PMCopy HTML Further to that; given the nature of letters and that they are understandable to whom they are written to (Dr Robert Stein, BTI), I would conclude it is the same person mentioned. But that's just my opinion.
Ralph |
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Epios
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#27
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 1:40 PMCopy HTML Ian and all,
Yes I know commentaries differ. Most cross reference to each other. One of my commentaries refers to an incident that occurred during an earlier visit by Paul promptly sent a 'severe letter' condemning the behaviour of one man who caused the trouble and who was disciplined. Verse 6 of 2 Corinthians 2 refers to forgiving the repentent person. It seemed a bit sketchy as some commentaries referred to the 'severe letter' having been lost or that it was incorporated into 2 Corinthians, probably chapter 7. Most commentaries seem to make a connection to 1 Corinthians 5. Epi |
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Uncoolman
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#28
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 7:58 PMCopy HTML I don’t know what any of you think of the Mathew Henry commentary whether it's credible or not? but this is what he says about this chapter, http://www.windyplace.com/bible/mhc/mhc.htm2 Corinthians Chapter 2Reasons for the apostle not coming to 1-4 The apostle desired to have a cheerful meeting with them; and he had written in confidence of their doing what was to their benefit and his comfort; and that therefore they would be glad to remove every cause of disquiet from him. We should always give pain unwillingly, even when duty requires that it must be given. 5-11 The apostle desires them to receive the person who had done wrong, again into their communion; for he was aware of his fault, and much afflicted under his punishment. Even sorrow for sin should not unfit for other duties, and drive to despair. Not only was there danger last Satan should get advantage, by tempting the penitent to hard thoughts of God and religion, and so drive him to despair; but against the churches and the ministers of |
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Didaktikon
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#29
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：05/10/2010 11:26 PMCopy HTML To Epi et Ralph.
As always, "context is king". The situation that prompted Paul's "second" letter to the church of Corinth was different in a good many respects from what prompted his first epistle (certainly in overall tone). Consequently it's extremely important to read the letter in its entirety in order to adequately grasp the context. The person who Paul seems to have in mind in 2 Corinthians is one who challenged his authority as an apostle. Most commentaries seem to make a connection to 1 Corinthians 5. I own seventeen commentaries on the Corinthian epistles, and I can assure you that "most" do not support the connection between our passage and 1 Corinthians 5 at all. Several of the older "devotional" commentaries (such as Matthew Henry) apparently drew the analogy; however, I struggled to find any "technical" (i.e. exegetical) commentary that did. In fact the only such work that I could identify was written by P.E. Hughes in 1962 for the NICNT series. This volume was subsequently replaced by Paul Barnett's edition in 1997, which, tellingly, finds his predecessor's exegesis quite unsatisfying at this point. To Out, To be honest, I don't use Matthew Henry at all. To begin with, it's more of a "devotional" commentary than a "technical" one, which means that it's less concerned about a rigorous exegesis of the text than it is with giving Christians a nurturing "buzz". Second, Henry's commentary was a product of its time, and that time fell between 200 to 300 years ago (in writing and editing)! Basing one's understanding of Scripture solely on helps this old is somewhat analogous to basing one's knowledge of the Bible text solely on the KJV! Plenty of water has passed under the bridge in the past few centuries, and our knowledge of the c-o-n-t-e-x-t-s that underpins letters such as 2 Corinthians has increased significantly in the interim. And now to the point. The RCI has made a fundamental error is in denying the reconciliation of certain "defaulters" to fellowship upon their repentance; Longfield's position demonstrating a clearly deficient understanding of the biblical teachings of sin, grace and restoration. However, the issue doesn't hinge on the establishing of a very tenuous link between 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 2. No dogma should ever be construed from just the one verse or passage, especially given the wealth of material that dovetails doctrinally throughout the breadth of Christian Scripture. The Bible speaks volumes on the subjects of right and wrong, on morality, on sin and restoration. If one is to craft a truly biblical theology on the consequences of sexual sin, then one needs to develop a truly biblical understanding of it. This can only be achieved by a careful, intentional and detailed study addressing Genesis through Revelation. Picking-and-choosing (i.e. "proof-texting") what passages one is prepared to accept will inevitably lead to an ad hoc and incorrect appreciation of the issues, and will invariably misconstrue the positions of the individual biblical authors. Briefly reflecting on every quirky "doctrine" believed, taught and promoted by Revivalism will demonstrate as much in spades! I'd like to close this rejoinder by offering the following advice: there are very many good (and reasonably priced) exegetical commentaries available to Christians nowadays, and a believer should have access to at least one commentary on each book of the Bible that's pitched at a level appropriate to his/her education, competence and requirements. "Devotional" commentaries certainly have their place, but they should be reasonably up-to-date and they should never be used in isolation from the more rigorous aids. Do yourselves a favour and invest a little in your learning. I've provided a few recommendations on resources elsewhere on this forum for those who are interested. Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Epios
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#30
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：06/10/2010 2:49 AMCopy HTML
Ian, Thanks. I will look up that list of (reasonably priced) exegetical commentaries you provided here. Just one query and I don't refer to serious wilful offenders here. Before 1995 Revival Church discipline had required the immediate removal from fellowship of moral offenders (regardless of to what degree ie touching and also those who smoked, drank, disagreed etc etc) for whatever time the paster/s decided upon. They were very proud of their cut and dryed approach and held it above other churches who they said were "wishy washy" in their approach to such things. I'm uncertain of the GRC but RF continued on in this way but might not be as rigid and quick to expel now. The old RCI procedure for returning was to have to phone the pastor every week for at least 6 weeks, sometimes longer, to convince him of repentance and their strong desire to return. Removing someone from fellowship is a drastic action. It imo really shouldn't become an ongoing regular solution for all problems in the Church as it did in the Revivalist church as I knew it. It places a lot of control in the hands of (Revivalist) pastors and seems to remove compassion for who sin, need help, but have nowhere to go for help for fear of being "put out" of fellowship. We are afterall all sinners, pastors included. On your knowledge of scripture do you think Revival Churches were/are out of line on this? God Bless. Epi |
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Didaktikon
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#31
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：06/10/2010 4:23 AMCopy HTML Hi, Epi.
Scripturally to expel a person from the community of believers was the most severe form of Church discipline available, as it was to "bind in heaven that which was bound on earth" (see the thrust of Matthew 18:15-19, and reflect on the serious implications of this passage). A very brief history lesson might be useful. During the 1st century to embrace Christianity as a Jew was to deny one's place in the covenant of Israel, and so to be numbered among the goyim - without God and therefore without hope. Israel was a corporate entity; identification with the community is what circumcision effected, expulsion from the community placed one under the "ban". During the early 3rd century, Church Fathers such as Cyprian and Novatian had to deal with the vexed question: what to do with the lapsi, believers who had caved-in to persecution, denying their Lord and faith. Naturally, apostates were expelled from the Church and in the understanding of the time, they had no hope of salvation as a result. But could they be restored? Perhaps, should they be restored? These were the sorts of theological discussions that took place, and which had very practical implications for the lives of believers everywhere. Moving on. I've written volumes on the subject of "lone Christians" in my various debates with certain others on this forum over the years. But I think it worthwhile to restate, here, my understanding that according to Scripture, whether Old Testament or New, there's no such thing as the "lone Jew/Christian". To be separate from Israel/the Church is to be separated from her Lord and God. If I might build on Paul's body analogy in 1 Corinthians, how can an organ that is cut off from the body continue to live? This being the case, just how carefully (and prayerfully) should the Church approach the issue of dis-fellowshiping someone? I'd suggest, very carefully indeed. It's not a matter to undertake lightly, and it's certainly not a matter that anyone should boast about: "Look how tough we are! We don't tolerate any wishy-washy, lovey-dovey nonsense here!" Our ultimate authority remains our ultimate example: Jesus Christ. In both word and deed Jesus' message was one of seeking out the lost "sheep" in order to restore it to the safety of the "flock". Christ differed from the Rabbinic Judaism of his day in discounting altogether the punitive nature of community discipline, stressing instead its restorative character. To Jesus redemption was everything! It should come as no surprise for you to discover that, in my opinion, Revivalist pastors are as wrong in their (mis)understanding of Church discipline as they are in their (mis)understanding of the Gospel! Being thoroughgoing legalists they have no concept whatsoever of grace, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, reconciliation or restoration. To them, these are mere words. To Jesus and to his Church; however, they are words offering life and hope! Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Uncoolman
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#32
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：06/10/2010 8:40 AMCopy HTML Reply to Epios Ian and all, Yes I know commentaries differ. Most cross reference to each other. One of my commentaries refers to an incident that occurred during an earlier visit by Paul promptly sent a 'severe letter' condemning the behaviour of one man who caused the trouble and who was disciplined. Verse 6 of 2 Corinthians 2 refers to forgiving the repentent person. It seemed a bit sketchy as some commentaries referred to the 'severe letter' having been lost or that it was incorporated into 2 Corinthians, probably chapter 7. Most commentaries seem to make a connection to 1 Corinthians 5. Epi Epios, if you are interested and if you can stand up to the Greek text a little (Well you do sound a capable and I think you'll be OK), I would be happy to scan the relevant pages from Murray Harris's Commentary (The New International Greek Testament Commentary pages 222 - 229.) and email it to you as a PDF file. But do bear in mind that 1) the offense is not named and 2) the offender is not named either. But being bashed with incompetent homiletic wannabees whose only accepted translation is the KJV, anyone can fall for those wrongful conclusions of the incestuous offender in 1 Corinthians. blessings Eric |
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Epios
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：07/10/2010 2:52 AMCopy HTML Ian, Thanks for your reply. It was very clear. I was discussing that subject with someone just recently and I will print it out for them to read. The longer articles from Please Consider which have been offered have been knocked back but anything short and concise has been accepted. Even disgruntled Revivalists worry that they might be reading something un Revival....and which has been given them by someone who is ex Revival. Epi |
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Epios
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Re：Darryl Williams encourages shunning (Audio - '98) Date Posted：07/10/2010 2:56 AMCopy HTML Meta, Thank you for your offer. I'm not so sure that I would be capable. I think I'll purchase one of the recommended commentaries next time I'm in Koorong instead. God Bless Epi |
