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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:19/04/2011 11:24 AMCopy HTML

Tony,

I notice you hanging around at the moment, so I was wondering how you're getting on answering my two little challenges? In case you'd forgotten, here they are again:

You claim that the Christian position regading God as Trinity is 'clear' to you, so answer the following two simple challenges: (1) describe for me the implications of perichoresis with respect to salvation. And, (2) explain for me the procession of the Spirit, and it's implications for salvation (i.e. Τον Άγιον Πνεύμα στέλνεται από τον Πατέρα μέσω του Υιού).

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:19/04/2011 1:59 PMCopy HTML

Revivalists profess that one doesn’t need to study and gain knowledge from the word but all that is needed is to receive the Holy Spirit and “It” will make valid interpretation and meaning automatically.

 

A knowledge of the nature of the Holy Spirit shows that He does expect us to use our minds, proper interpretative methods, and good study, helps to get the meaning and interpret the bible accurately.

The Holy Spirit functions little involving ‘conscious mental activities’, but more in the area of discerning truth, and most in the area of application. Those that reject gaining knowledge of the truth in scripture have not the Spirit of God and do not apply it in their lives. (sourced from Duvall’s ‘Grasping God’s Word’).

Tony Barton’s approach to scripture falls nothing short of the belief in all Revivalist groups, that having the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues) is all you need because that the HS “will lead you into all truth”.

 

This of course is far from the truth, God and His will for us is already revealed in His holy word and those that do not seek it out but continue with their dilemma (if I may) ‘grieves’ the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:19/04/2011 11:54 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ralph.

Revivalists profess that one doesn’t need to study and gain knowledge from the word but all that is needed is to receive the Holy Spirit and “It” will make valid interpretation and meaning automatically. Indeed they do. However, the salient feature that such Revivalists fail to consider, as always, is c-o-n-t-e-x-t. Jesus' promise that we find recorded in John 16:13, finds it's immediate context in the preceding verse (v. 12). Consequently, this promise made by Christ was to his original disciples, to those men who would establish, lead and grow the Church, some of whom would later be involved in the writing of the New Testament.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (NRSV) Jn 16:12-13.

Our passage reinforces the one delivered earlier, in chapter 14. Again, the context finds Jesus conversing with the closest of his original disciples, and again the 'promise' verse (v. 26) finds its immediate context in the 'qualifing' verse which precedes it (v. 25).

25 “I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. (NRSV) Jn 14:25-26.

At the point in time when individual Revivalists begin to actually take notice of context as they read Scripture, the Tony Bartons of this world will find themselves without a pulpit and an audience. Until then, caveat emptor.

In closing, one of my original lecturers used to say, "responsible biblical interpretation is 95% perspiration and only 5% inspiration. The Holy Spirit isn't a replacement for the hard work needed to 'rightly divide the Word of truth'; his function in our day and age is less about inspiration than application".

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 12:47 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Good morning, Ralph.

Revivalists profess that one doesn’t need to study and gain knowledge from the word but all that is needed is to receive the Holy Spirit and “It” will make valid interpretation and meaning automatically. Indeed they do. However, the salient feature that such Revivalists fail to consider, as always, is c-o-n-t-e-x-t. Jesus' promise that we find recorded in John 16:13, finds it's immediate context in the preceding verse (v. 12). Consequently, it was a promise made to his original disciples and not to the whomsoever who would later follow.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (NRSV) Jn 16:12-13.

Our passage reinforces the one delivered earlier, in chapter 14. Again, the context finds Jesus conversing with the closest of his original disciples, and again the 'promise' verse (v. 26) finds its immediate context in the 'qualifing' verse which precedes it (v. 25).

25 “I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. (NRSV) Jn 14:25-26.

At the point in time when individual Revivalists begin to actually take notice of context as they read Scripture, the Tony Bartons of this world will find themselves without a pulpit and an audience. Until then, caveat emptor.

In closing, one of my original lecturers used to say, "responsible biblical interpretation is 95% perspiration and only 5% inspiration. The Holy Spirit isn't a replacement for the hard work needed to 'rightly divide the Word of truth'; his function in our day and age is less about inspiration than application".

Blessings,

Ian


WOW! We are exact opposites Ian (L.Th., M.Th., Grad Dip Log Mngt & Ass Sys, Dip Voc Ed,)  Surprise Surprise.

I wonder this though, If you were standing there at the trial of Jesus, would you have said "Crucify him" or would you have said "Release him"

I'm sure the impressive learning of the Pharisees made them feel perfectly justified in saying Crucify him.

Do you suppose that the Pharisees were simply evil or could it be that their learning had blinded their eyes to the extent that they didn't realise they were crucifying their God?

Truely sad

Pharisee

MJ
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 1:00 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Jingles.

WOW! We are exact opposites Ian (L.Th., M.Th., Grad Dip Log Mngt & Ass Sys, Dip Voc Ed,)  Surprise Surprise. To begin with, the data on that site was incorrectly entered, and is quite out-of-date now in any case. However, I'm not in the least surprised that you would apparently exult ignorance over learning, heresy over orthodoxy, and that consequently, you're my 'exact opposite' to use your turn of phrase. Given that I'm also quite tall, athletic and good looking, can I assume that you're short, round and brachycephalic by comparison?

I wonder this though, If you were standing there at the trial of Jesus, would you have said "Crucify him" or would you have said "Release him". I don't know, really. But unlike you, at least I would've (a) understood the conversation, and, (b) recognised what was going on. I'm sure the impressive learning of the Pharisees made them feel perfectly justified in saying Crucify him. Their learning? 'Nope'. It was their jealousy that led to certain of their number calling for Jesus' death. You know a little about jealousy yourself, don't you?

Do you suppose that the Pharisees were simply evil or could it be that their learning had blinded their eyes to the extent that they didn't realise they were crucifying their God? I suppose the question could be turned on its head to ask, "is it your lack of learning that causes Revivalists to be blind to what Scripture presents about God; consequently you choose to ignore him in preference for 'tongues'?"

Truely sad. Which? Your spelling or your ignorance?

“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?" Proverbs 1:22

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 2:06 AMCopy HTML

Dont waste your time Mr Jingles. You will never get anything through his cement cranium. He knows everything.
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 2:09 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ian

To begin with, the data on that site was incorrectly entered, and is quite out-of-date now in any case. However, I'm not in the least surprised that you would apparently exult ignorance over learning, heresy over orthodoxy, and that consequently, you're my 'exact opposite' to use your turn of phrase. Given that I'm also quite tall, athletic and good looking, can I assume that you're short, round and brachycephalic by comparison?

You forgot Humble and Modest! LOL

I don't know, really. But unlike you, at least I would've (a) understood the conversation, and, (b) recognised what was going on.

Your first three words in your response were the most accurate you've posted to date. "I Don't Know"
BTW I understand exactly what Jesus was and is doing. The evidence will be evidenced by and in the light of his return.

Their learning? 'Nope'. It was their jealousy that led to certain of their number calling for Jesus' death. You know a little about jealousy yourself, don't you?

"Nope" I'm very happy right where I am....at Jesus feet. No need for jealousy there.

I suppose the question could be turned on its head to ask, "is it your lack of learning that causes Revivalists to be blind to what Scripture presents about God; consequently you choose to ignore him in preference for 'tongues'?"

Again "Nope" you have no idea about "The Faith" none.  As the Pharisees were in Jesus time, so you are today.

As I said before...Truely Sad!

Pharisee

MJ
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 2:11 AMCopy HTML

Guest,

Dont waste your time Mr Jingles. You will never get anything through his cement cranium. He knows everything. Which sets me apart, I suppose, from those (like you) who clearly know nothing.

"The wise lay up knowledge, but the babbling of a fool brings ruin near." Proverbs 10:14

Hoo, roo.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 2:20 AMCopy HTML

Jingles, once more.

You forgot Humble and Modest! LOL. Nah, I didn't forget it. Modesty prevented me from commenting on my humility.

I don't know, really. But unlike you, at least I would've (a) understood the conversation, and, (b) recognised what was going on. Your first three words in your response were the most accurate you've posted to date. "I Don't Know". Hmmm. I confess that I'm a little troubled how greatly you struggle with making sense of the inter-relationship that exists between words, context and meaning. Perhaps I should simply respond to you with untethered, meanlingless words like: 'oranges', 'digitise' and 'wheelbarrow' in future? BTW I understand exactly what Jesus was and is doing. The evidence will be evidenced by and in the light of his return. Ah, do you think? Do you believe one must wait for the Parousia to perceive the 'evidence' of Jesus' mission? I don't, but then again, I know Scripture better than you.

Their learning? 'Nope'. It was their jealousy that led to certain of their number calling for Jesus' death. You know a little about jealousy yourself, don't you? "Nope" I'm very happy right where I am....at Jesus feet. No need for jealousy there. Then why do you still struggle with feelings of inadequacy, so?

I suppose the question could be turned on its head to ask, "is it your lack of learning that causes Revivalists to be blind to what Scripture presents about God; consequently you choose to ignore him in preference for 'tongues'?" Again "Nope" you have no idea about "The Faith" none. Would that be the faith that was 'delivered once and for all to the saints'? Or the 'faith' of Revivalism? As the Pharisees were in Jesus time, so you are today. Oh? Were they tall, athletic and good looking too?

As I said before...Truely Sad! Indeed it is as 'truly' doesn't have an 'e'.

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but those who hate to be rebuked are stupid." Proverbs 12:1

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:To Tony Barton/Luke735/GWM/Demetrius/Demetrius Diotriphes/Mothman's Ghost, yadda, yadda

Date Posted:20/04/2011 3:40 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

σας ευχαριστώ αδερφό μου

 

Jingles,

 

One might say that c-o-n-t-e-x-t is a bit over empathized here by Ian but it does hold the key to unlocking the correct meaning of scripture, even to the most simple of persons that desire correct knowledge of God’s will on earth and His dealings with us. It also leads us to a place of the intended way of worship and how to walk correctly as one that has entered his kingdom.
 
 

Shortly after I came to Revival and was told I had received the Holy Spirit, because I “spoke in tongues” I found myself zealously going about witnessing to people that I had found the Lord and that the bible had become an “open book”. I would read any scripture and interpret it as I thought it meant, thus believing it was the HS that was working in me giving me the power to witness, when those that questioned me, I would give an answer straight way even without thinking about it first. (wow!, what a “miracle”)

 

It has been about four years now since I had woken up that this was not the way God intended his word to be used and walked away from Revival and learnt how to read and study the bible. I don’t have any degrees or such but I soon discovered it is not some magical inner working of the spirit that assures me I have the Holy Spirit but the revelation, through knowledge that is gained by studying and correct reading of the bible (‘context’) as the Spirit leads one to the truth.

 

There are many different reasons why people have left and escaped the clutches of Revivalism, a lot have been deeply scarred by the spiritual abuse (and physical) and no longer want anymore to with God or religion, and rightly so I guess, but others, as myself, have sought out the “way” of the bible and enjoying the fruit of it.

By way of note; your ignorance about the Pharisees shows.

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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