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worriedmum
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Date Posted:15/09/2007 2:03 PMCopy HTML

?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />I am currently reading New Testament, as recommended by many including my own son.How do I understand this?Jesus did not let a man to bury his father. He said, "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead." (Mathew 8.22) I reckon, it was not very nice, as he did not let the man to mourn over his fathers' dead body. What sort of phenomenological language is that? Should we all follow Christ then? A lot of people actually do so already in all sorts of Bible based cults.Is this what it means to be a true Christian?Then he drowned a herd of pigs, obviously including two possessed men. (M 8.32) If we follow the Christ, it looks like we should say goodbye to our already underfunded mental health care.Considering the other Jesus' miracles I do believe them in the same way as I believe in alien abduction.The worst part of the Bible I think is here. Jesus sends out the 12 apostles to drive out the evil spirits and to heal. Mathew 10.16. I am sending you out like sheep amongst wolves...10.21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me...10.34. Do not suppose that I have come to bring piece to the earth. I did not come to bring piece but the sword."How I am supposed to understand this? Enforced Christianity? Or let's kill people for the common good? This is very disturbing evidence. Against the family values! This is a proclamation of a Crusade against humanity - "...whoever loses their life for my sake will find it" 10.39Amazingly, nothing actually said about how to heal people.I am sorry, but I am feeling stressed right now reading this and I have to stop.Too much analogy with Islam. I would very worried if I was a Muslim, I would be horrified! As I am scared being a free person.
If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #51
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:14/10/2007 2:54 PMCopy HTML

Just happened upon this article in another Aimoo forum today and thought it interesting and relevent to the line of discussion here.

Debunking the Historical Jesus

Believers must grasp at straws to prop up their myth.


Dan Barker
Photo by Brent Nicastro

The question of the historical existence of Jesus has hit the news with the recent, intriguing lawsuit in Italy by Luigi Cascioli, who is suing a priest, Rev. Enrico Righi, over his published assertion that "Jesus did indeed exist." Such a claim, Cascioli says, is a deception, an "abuse of popular belief," which is against Italian law. The lawsuit refreshingly demands that Righi prove that Jesus existed.

In his defense, Righi and an obliging media have trotted out many alleged evidences for Jesus long ago discounted, yet which continue to pepper the credulous writings of conservative religious authors and scholars.

According to the Associated Press, Righi "cited many known observers, including nonChristian ones, who have written about the existence of Jesus, such as the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian source on Christ's existence."

Written around C.E. 95, this paragraph appears in The Antiquities of the Jews:

"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named form him are no t extinct at this day."

If this is the strongest and earliest extrabiblical evidence for the historical Jesus, then the scholarship is on the shakiest grounds. That passage from Josephus has been shown conclusively to be a forgery, and even conservative scholars admit that it has been tampered with. But even were it historical, it dates from more than six decades after the supposed death of Jesus.

The Associated Press chose to omit the fact that scholars have largely discounted the Josephus paragaph as a later interpolation. The passage, although widely quoted by believers today, did not show up in the writings of Josephus until centuries after his death, at the beginning of the fourth century. Thoroughly dishonest church historian Eusebius is credited as the real author. The passage is grossly out of context, a clear hint that it was inserted at a later time.

All scholars agree that Josephus, a Jew who never converted to Christianity, would not have called Jesus "the Christ" or "the truth," so the passage must have been doctored by a later Christian--evidence, by the way, that some early believers were in the habit of altering texts to the advantage of their theological agenda. The phrase "to this day" that appears in the interpolation, reveals it was written at a later time. Everyone agrees there was no "tribe of Christians" during the time of Josephus--Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

If Jesus were truly important to history, then Josephus should have told us something about him. Yet he is completely silent about the supposed miracles and deeds of Jesus. He does not quote Jesus. He adds nothing to the Gospel narratives and tells us nothing that would not have been known by Christians in either the first or fourth centuries. In all of Josephus' voluminous writings, there is nothing about Jesus or Christianity anywhere outside of the tiny paragraph cited so blithely by Associated Press.

The Josephus paragraph mentions that Jesus was foretold by the divine prophets, but he does not tell us who those prophets were or what they said. This is religious propaganda, not history. If Jesus had truly been the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, then Josephus would have been the exact person to confirm it.

And this is the best "historical evidence" for Jesus!

The other phrase from Josephus that Righi and AP cite concerns James, the so-called brother of Jesus, and is likewise flimsy. It says that a man named James was stoned to death, which is not mentioned in the bible. Many scholars believe the "brother of Jesus" phrase is a later interpolation, and that Josephus was referring to a different James, possibly the same James that Paul mentions in Acts, who led a sect in Jerusalem. Contradicting Josephus, Hegesippus wrote a history of Christianity in C.E. 170 saying that James, the brother of Jesus, was killed in a riot, not by sentence of a court.

Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who, in the early second century (112), reported that "Christians were singing a hymn to Christ as to a god." Notice how late this reference is. And notice the absence of the name "Jesus." The passage, if accurate, could have referred to any of the other self-proclaimed "Christs" (messiahs) followed by Jews who thought they had found their anointed one. Pliny's account is not history, since he is only relaying what other people believed. No one doubts that Christianity was in existence by this time. Offering this as proof would be the equivalent of quoting modern Mormons about their beliefs in the historical existence of the Angel Moroni or the miracles of Joseph Smith--doubtless useful for documenting the religious beliefs, but not the actual facts.

Tacitus, another second-century Roman writer who alleged that Christ had been executed by sentence of Pontius Pilate, is likewise cited by Righi. Written some time after C.E. 117, Tacitus' claim is more of the same late, second-hand "history." There is no mention of the name "Jesus," only "the sect known as Christians" living in Rome being persecuted, and "their founder, one Christus." Tacitus claims no first-hand knowledge of Christianity. No historical evidence exists that Nero persecuted Christians--Nero did persecute Jews, so perhaps Tacitus was confused. There was certainly not a "great crowd" of Christians in Rome around C.E. 60, as Tacitus put it, and most damning, the term "Christian" was not even in use in the first century. No one in the second century ever quoted this passage of Tacitus. In fact, it appears almost word-for-word in the fourth-century writings of Sulpicius Severus, where it is mixed with other obvious myths. Citing Tacitus, therefore, is highly suspect and adds virtually nothing to the evidence for a historical Jesus.

Such are the straws believers must grasp in order to prop up their myth.

Historians have no evidence of a historic Jesus dating from the time Jesus supposedly lived, even though many contemporary writers documented the era in great detail. Philo of Alexandria, for example, wrote in depth about early first-century Palestine, naming other self-proclaimed messiahs, yet never once mentioning a man named Jesus. Many other contemporary writers covered that era, yet there is not a single mention of any existence, deeds, or words of a man named Jesus.

Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, in their book The Jesus Mysteries, explain how the myth and legend of Jesus could easily have arisen without a historical founder. The Jesus story was pressed from the same template as other mythical savior-gods who were killed and resurrected, such as Osiris, Dionysus, Mithra, and Attis.

Early Christians agreed that Christianity offered "nothing different" from paganism. Arguing with pagans around C.E. 150, Justin Martyr said: "When we say that the Word, who is the first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." Fourth-century Christian scholar Fermicus, in attempting to establish the uniqueness of Christianity, met at every turn by pagan precedents to the story of Jesus, and in exasperation concluded: "The Devil has his Christs!"

The Gospels are not history; they are religious propaganda, contradictory, exaggerated, and mythical. The earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul, are silent about the man Jesus: Paul, who never met Jesus, fails to mention a single deed or saying of Jesus (except for the ritualistic Last Supper formula), and sometimes contradicts what Jesus supposedly said. To Paul, Jesus was a heavenly disembodied Christ figure, not a man of flesh and blood.

There is serious doubt that Jesus ever existed. It is impossible to prove he was a historical figure. It is much more plausible to consider the Jesus character to be the result of myth-making, a human process that is indeed historically documented.

In covering Luigi Cascioli's fascinating lawsuit, the media need to stop acting like a megaphone for religion, and start doing some balanced reporting.

Here are a few references relating to the historical Jesus:

The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "original Jesus" a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy (1999, Three Rivers Press)
Did Jesus Exist? by G. A. Wells (1975, Pemberton)
The Jesus Puzzle: Challenging the existence of an historical Jesus by Earl Doherty (1999,Canadian Humanist Association)
Deconstructing Jesus by Robert Price (2000, Prometheus Books)
The Jesus Legend by G. A. Wells (1996, Open Court)
The Historical Evidence for Jesus by G. A. Wells (1982, Prometheus Books)
Jesus in History and Myth by Joseph R. Hoffman and G. A. Larue (1986, Prometheus Books)
Jesus: Myth or History? by A. Robertson (1949, Watts)
Pagan Christs by J. M. Robertson (1911, London)
The Quest of the Historical Jesus by Albert Schweitzer
The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S (1999, Adventures Unlimited)
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart D. Ehrman (2005, Harper San Francisco)

See also Did Jesus Rise From the Dead? by Dan Barker.

Dan Barker, a former ordained Protestant minister who is now an atheist, has written Losing Faith in Faith, which includes a section on the question of Jesus' historicity. Barker has also widely debated the topic.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wis., is a national association of freethinkers (atheists, agnostics) that has been working since 1978 to keep church and state separate.
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #52
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:15/10/2007 7:14 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

Moth,

And how does this piece advance the discussion? What new theories, what new information is included that would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus?

Eh?

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:16/10/2007 11:14 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : MothandRustMoth,And how does this pieceadvancethe discussion? What new theories, what new information is included that would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus?Eh?Blessings,Ian

Did I say it would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus? Eh? As I said, I just happened upon this article in another Aimoo forum the other day and thought it interesting.

Just a cold cut and paste to ignore or otherwise...

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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:16/10/2007 11:43 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust   Must admit, I enjoyed reading it, not a bad cut and paste at all!!

I am still reading Bishop John Shelby Spong's autobiography.  The title says it all, "Here I Stand."  "My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love & Equality." I only get a few minutes to read each day, so it takes a LONG time to finish a book. Fascinating life, tinged with sorrow. His first wife was seriously mentally ill.

Some people refer to him as a heretic, but he is still a Bishop, albeit retired. Is very open and honest when it comes to Bible "facts". Would love to chat with him or maybe go to one of his lectures if he comes to Australia again.

Has an inquiring, "open" mind and has helped SO many causes and people during his life. Not just in America, but in many countries worldwide.

Believes in gay people being able to take communion, ordination of women, was in the forefront to help bring about desegregated schools in the Southern States of America. Worked for civil rights campaigns both in America and South Africa. At the same time he managed to provide wonderful pastoral care for his parishoners and to raise his three daughters almost single handedly. Set up health centres, educational and sporting facilities that were available to all.

It is a good read!

Cheers,

Glad 

PS, WOW, look at the number of posts you have clocked up. Are you going to celebrate when you get to 2000?


Reply to : DidaktikonReply to : MothandRustMoth,And how does this pieceadvancethe discussion? What new theories, what new information is included that would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus?Eh?Blessings,IanDid I say it would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus? Eh?As I said, I justhappenedupon this article in another Aimoo forum the other day and thought it interesting.Just a cold cut and paste to ignore or otherwise...
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 1:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out

Hi, 'Glad'.

I am still reading Bishop John Shelby Spong's autobiography. The title says it all, "Here I Stand." "My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love & Equality." I only get a few minutes to read each day, so it takes a LONG time to finish a book. Fascinating life, tinged with sorrow. His first wife was seriously mentally ill.

Yes, and sadly Bishop Spong is, himself, spiritually ill

Some people refer to him as a heretic, but he is still a Bishop, albeit retired. Is very open and honest when it comes to Bible "facts". Would love to chat with him or maybe go to one of his lectures if he comes to Australia again.

First, understand that Spong is a heretic (he denies outright the deity of Christ); it simply isn't a case of "some people referring to him as one". Second, I think it was J.I. Packer who once said (of Spong): "...the Church has need of its gadflies, but such isn't the role of her bishops", or words to that effect. Third, trust me, Spong is anything but honest when it comes to representing biblical facts. His positions have been so 'whacky' that even the radical 'Jesus Seminar' held him at arm's length for a while! Finally, I've met and listened the man in the 'flesh', so to speak (when he last visited Australia). I found him to be anything but convincing when attempting to dialogue with trained theologians. He's strictly a 'popularist' man, and at his best when playing to the biases of the biblically illiterate, and theologically naive.

Has an inquiring, "open" mind and has helped SO many causes and people during his life. Not just in America, but in many countries worldwide.

You think Spong harbours an 'open' mind, eh?

Believes in gay people being able to take communion, ordination of women, was in the forefront to help bring about desegregated schools in the Southern States of America. Worked for civil rights campaigns both in America and South Africa. At the same time he managed to provide wonderful pastoral care for his parishoners and to raise his three daughters almost single handedly. Set up health centres, educational and sporting facilities that were available to all.

Yes, and in spite of all of the above (well, at least most of it, at any rate), he has singularly failed to properly represent the biblical message on the falleness of humanity, and of our desperate need for a Redeemer. In short, not only has Spong failed to live up to his ordination vows--he has actively and knowingly campaigned against them! That he continues to wear the purple in spite of this, lays bear his character, and makes mockery of his calling

It is a good read!

Like all of Spong's books, it is certainly well written! However, clearly you and I differ in what we believe it is which constitutes a 'good read'!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #56
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 1:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

Mothman,

Did I say it would somehow cause the balance to shift against the authenticity of the historical Jesus? Eh? As I said, I just happened upon this article in another Aimoo forum the other day and thought it interesting.

I'm sure you did Perhaps I would have found it marginally interesting myself, had it contained something, anything of substance.

Just a cold cut and paste to ignore or otherwise...

Yes, and an absolute waste of the minute or that it took you to 'cut-and-paste' it, and the thirty seconds that it took me to read it! Time which, I'm sorry to say, I'll never get back

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 7:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon  GOTCHA!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Glad

Anyone interested: The progressive heretical thoughts of this man who HAS done so much good over the years can be found on his website,

www.johnshelbyspong.com

I don't necessarily agree, I just enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

 


Reply to : Glad-to be outHi, 'Glad'.I am still reading Bishop John Shelby Spong's autobiography. The title says it all, "Here I Stand." "My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love & Equality." I only get a few minutes to read each day, so it takes a LONG time to finish a book. Fascinating life, tinged with sorrow. His first wife was seriously mentally ill.Yes, and sadly Bishop Spong is, himself,spirituallyillSome people refer to him as a heretic, but he is still a Bishop, albeit retired. Is very open and honest when it comes to Bible "facts". Would love to chat with him or maybe go to one of his lectures if he comes to Australia again.First, understand that Spongisa heretic (he denies outright the deity of Christ
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 10:56 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : Glad-to be outHi, 'Glad'.I am still reading Bishop John Shelby Spong's autobiography. The title says it all, "Here I Stand." "My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love & Equality." I only get a few minutes to read each day, so it takes a LONG time to finish a book. Fascinating life, tinged with sorrow. His first wife was seriously mentally ill.Yes, and sadly Bishop Spong is, himself,spirituallyillSome people refer to him as a heretic, but he is still a Bishop, albeit retired. Is very open and honest when it comes to Bible "facts". Would love to chat with him or maybe go to one of his lectures if he comes to Australia again.First, understand that Spongisa heretic (he denies outright the deity of Christ

He's strictly a 'popularist' man, and at his best when playing to the biases of the biblically illiterate, and theologically naive

 
Thats odd, I never heard of him visiting any Revivalist groups whilst here

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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 2:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out



Anyone interested: Theprogressive heretical thoughts of this man who HAS done so much good over the years can be found on his website,www.johnshelbyspong.comI don't necessarily agree, I just enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.





Hi, Glad to be out!
I've read quite a few of Bishop Spongs books, and at the moment am reading "Jesus for the non religious" which is his latest book, published this year. its a very interesting perspective on the whole thing.
"Rescuing the bible from fundamentalism" is a good read as well. I'll check the website out, thanks
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 3:32 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

I'm sure you didPerhaps I would have found it marginally interesting myself, had it contained something,anything of substance.

Yeah, things can be interesting when they have substance, but I'm also a fan of the insubstantial. Of course you're not and that is why you missed out on Harry Potter (my recommended reading) Well, maybe I'll make sure further cut and pastes are submitted as Youtubes... I know you won't waste your time with anything submitted in that medium - heh.

Just a cold cut and paste to ignore or otherwise...

Yes, and an absolute waste of the minute or that it took you to 'cut-and-paste' it, and the thirty seconds that it took me to read it! Time which, I'm sorry to say, I'llneverget backBlessings,I

Not as much of a waste of time as the minutes I'm spending resonding to the response about the post being a waste of your time, but that's my choice to do so, I suppose.

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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:03 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out

Hi, 'Glad'.

Well, I'm not sure that you 'got' me, but it sounds as if Spong 'got' you

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:05 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

'Mothster',

Not as much of a waste of time as the minutes I'm spending resonding to the response about the post being a waste of your time, but that's my choice to do so, I suppose.

Indeed it is!

Blessings again,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:11 PMCopy HTML

Didi,

I'm half way through Fee and the section on the person of the Holy Spirit was so fantastic. Having a page of verbs dedicated to the person with the relative scripture was great. I shared it with my wife and she said it was best thing she had heard in 12 months.

I also picked up a 'John Piper' book today, any comment on the guy.

FG

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : big girl  Thanks, I'll look them up. Will make sure that I get a copy of "Rescueing The Bible From Fundamentalism."

If you are from Melbourne, there is a fantastic Op shop that sells excellent books. It is almost opposite Buddah's Belly coffee shop in Chapel Street, Dandenong Road endish. The Op shop is associated with some religion or other and has a wide range of books, most as new  for a pittance. My John Spong book was about $2.00 AU.

Oh and BB's has the best smoked salmon bagels and the coffee is excellent. Both worth a lookin if you are in the area.

Cheers,

Glad


Hi, Glad to be out!I've read quite a few of Bishop Spongs books, and at the moment am reading "Jesus for the non religious" which is his latest book, published this year. its a very interesting perspective on the whole thing."Rescuing the bible from fundamentalism" is a good read as well. I'll check the website out, thanks
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:22 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Frankie,

I'm half way through Fee and the section on the person of the Holy Spirit was so fantastic. Having a page of verbs dedicated to the person with the relative scripture was great. I shared it with my wife and she said it was best thing she had heard in 12 months.

There you go

I also picked up a 'John Piper' book today, any comment on the guy.

Piper is a Reformed pastor who has a profound grasp of theology (he has an earned Doctor of Theology degree), which he applies to the life of the average Christian in relation with the church. He's well worth reading, though you may find some of what he has to say unpalatable (he's no great supporter of much of the Pentecostal nonsense).

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Hey again, 'Glad'.

My John Spong book was about $2.00 AU.

Geez! You were 'ripped off'!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:31 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon  I knew you would disapprove of the post. I admit to smiling, just a little bit, as I was writing it. I don't think he has got me, I just think that he has done a lot of constructive helpful things that have enriched all manner of people's lives. He has met people on the world stage that I admire and has an understanding of mental illness that makes him vulnerable, and I can relate to his situation.

I read ALL your stuff as well!

I know there is a comeback here about at what cost to their "walk, salvation" if you believe that he is a heretic or whatever, but he has dealt with LIFE. Something a lot of religious leaders, pastors, priests, and ministers seem to have little understanding of.

He wears the purple because he is entitled too. They haven't defrocked him, yet.

Check out the bookstore mentioned to "Big Girl" in the post above, it has some books that you would find interesting as well.

Cheers,

Glad


Reply to : Glad-to be outHi, 'Glad'.Well, I'm not sure that you 'got' me, but it sounds as if Spong 'got' youBlessings,Ian
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:35 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : DidaktikonHey again, 'Glad'.My John Spong book was about $2.00 AU.Geez! You were 'ripped off'!Blessings,Ian
I knew you wouldn't miss it...when I first read that, I actually 'heard' you say it!! You're so predictable  
For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest.... Isa 62:1
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:35 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon   LUV YA DIDI !!!!! As I was writing that, I knew I shouldn't have put it in ( the price).  YOU don't disappoint!!!

Cheers,

Glad


Reply to : DidaktikonHey again, 'Glad'.My John Spong book was about $2.00 AU.Geez! You were 'ripped off'!Blessings,Ian
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:35 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon


Piper is a Reformed pastor who has a profound grasp of theology (he has an earned Doctor of Theology degree), which he applies to the life of the average Christian in relation with the church. He's well worth reading, though you may find some of what he has to say unpalatable (he's no great supporter of much of the Pentecostal nonsense).

To what nonsense do you refer? there seems to be plenty from where I stand.

With Fee being as penecostal as he is, are these 2 authors on the same page?

Secondly, I got read some stuff on Cyprian. He cracked it for a mention in Fee's book (re no salvation outside the church). Just wondering why you suggested Cyprian as apposed to Ignatius for me to look at?


FG

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:44 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out

Hi once more, 'Glad'.

I knew you would disapprove of the post.

Well now, you don't need my approval to post your thoughts

I admit to smiling, just a little bit, as I was writing it. I don't think he has got me, I just think that he has done a lot of constructive helpful things that have enriched all manner of people's lives. He has met people on the world stage that I admire and has an understanding of mental illness that makes him vulnerable, and I can relate to his situation.

Sure.

I read ALL your stuff as well!

Okay.

I know there is a comeback here about at what cost to their "walk, salvation" if you believe that he is a heretic or whatever, but he has dealt with LIFE.

'Nope'. I'm not really interested in any of that stuff. My concern relates to one's ability to properly discern John Shelby Spong

Something a lot of religious leaders, pastors, priests, and ministers seem to have little understanding of.

No doubt. But from where I sit, I don't see the possibility that Spong has somehow positively 'dealt' with 'Life' thereby balances out, or in anyway 'levels the scales' with respect to the other 'stuff'.

He wears the purple because he is entitled too. They haven't defrocked him, yet.

If he wishes to be identified as being a senior representative of the Anglican Church, which he clearly does, hence his wearing the purple; then he should faithfully represent what the Anglican Church believes and teaches, as is signified by the aforesaid purple. But he doesn't. Spong wears the purple because it provides him with credibility. A currency which he lacks with respect to theological sophistication. What does this suggest about his character, eh?

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 4:49 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Francis,

To what nonsense do you refer? there seems to be plenty from where I stand.

Yes, some of it, however, you currently believe

With Fee being as penecostal as he is, are these 2 authors on the same page?

I'd put matters this way: they agree on far more than they disagree.

Secondly, I got read some stuff on Cyprian. He cracked it for a mention in Fee's book (re no salvation outside the church). Just wondering why you suggested Cyprian as apposed to Ignatius for me to look at?

'Balance', nothing more

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 6:00 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon  Still luv ya didi, even if you are a bit anal sometimes. Not enough hugs today?

With regard to the Anglican Church and Spong faithfully representing it, the Anglican Church is a huge diverse religious group , they encourage and are not afraid of diversity, and if they were so unhappy with John Spong, they could excommunicate him.

The beauty of this forum is that, we can ALL have an opinion and input, even if some people think it is rubbish and they will never make up the time that they have spent reading posts. It's not rocket science, if someone doesn't like a thread or post, YA DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!!. As for approval, the thing is I don't want or crave your approval, I just want to know  "who died and put you IN CHARGE of the forum?"

Sometimes it's nice to just prattle on and not have your post dissected each time. (Realise I am leaving myself wide open here.)

We do learn from EACH OTHER on the Forum. Even the most innocuous post can be a pearl of wisdom to someone.

Cheers,

Glad

 


Reply to : Glad-to be outHi once more, 'Glad'.I knew you would disapprove of the post.Well now, you don'tneedmy approval to post your thoughtsI admit to smiling, just a little bit, as I was writing it. I don't think he has got me, I just think that he has done a lot of constructive helpful things that have enriched all manner of people's lives. He has met people on the world stage that I admire and has an understanding of mental illness that makes him vulnerable, and I can relate to his situation.Sure.I read ALL your stuff as well!Okay.I know there is a comeback here about at what cost to their "walk, salvation" if you believe that he is a heretic or whatever, but he has dealt with LIFE.


"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 6:23 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out

Reply to : DidaktikonStill luv ya didi, even if you are a bit anal sometimes. Not enough hugs today?With regard to the Anglican Church and Spong faithfully representing it, the Anglican Church is a huge diverse religious group,theyencourage and are not afraid of diversity,and if they were so unhappy with John Spong, they could excommunicate him.The beauty of this forum is that, we can ALL have an opinion and input, even if some people think it is rubbish and they will never make up the time that they have spent reading posts. It's not rocket science, if someone doesn't like a thread or post, YA DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!!.As for approval, the thing is I don't want or crave your approval, I just want to know

Reply to : Didaktikon  Still luv ya didi, even if you are a bit anal sometimes. Not enough hugs today?

 

Glad didi dont do hugs didnt you know lol

 

Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #75
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 7:48 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Glad-to be out

Hi, 'Glad'.

Still luv ya didi, even if you are a bit anal sometimes. Not enough hugs today?

Ha!

With regard to the Anglican Church and Spong faithfully representing it, the Anglican Church is a huge diverse religious group , they encourage and are not afraid of diversity, and if they were so unhappy with John Spong, they could excommunicate him.

Wow! I guess I wouldn't have known that the Anglican Church was diverse had you not told me But seriously, do you understand the content of the vows taken for the Anglican priesthood? Or taken upon elevation to the episcopate? Further, have you heard of the thirty-nine articles? Spong does, and yet he has chosen to rebel against, and undermine them. Anglican diversity doesn't extend quite that far

The beauty of this forum is that, we can ALL have an opinion and input, even if some people think it is rubbish and they will never make up the time that they have spent reading posts.

Sure. But not ALL opinions are created equal, nor are all of them based on the facts of a given matter

It's not rocket science, if someone doesn't like a thread or post, YA DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!!

Sure. But if you do decide to post something, expect engagement.

As for approval, the thing is I don't want or crave your approval, I just want to know "who died and put you IN CHARGE of the forum?"

No-one But who appointed you to be the person who decides what I can, or can not, post?

Sometimes it's nice to just prattle on and not have your post dissected each time. (Realise I am leaving myself wide open here.)

Scroll back up and re-read my comment about 'engagement'

We do learn from EACH OTHER on the Forum. Even the most innocuous post can be a pearl of wisdom to someone.

No doubt. "One person's trash is another person's treasure", and all that!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Recommended reading No1 The Bible

Date Posted:17/10/2007 9:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon    "G'night Johnboy , I'm off to bed to read a bit more SPONG!"

Cheers,

Glad


Still luv ya didi, even if you are a bit anal sometimes. Not enough hugs today?


"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
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