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Date Posted:11/02/2011 4:33 AMCopy HTML

Ian - you say you are a minister of the Word but not of the Church, but how can this be?The two are not mutually exclusive. An ordained church minister is a Minister of the Word. You say you have 'authority to preach and teach', but who gives you this authority if not a church?Yourself?Having a theology degree does not make anyone a minister of God's word. No lay-person can be a minister of God's word, because he is not ordained.So explain where your authority to 'preach and teach' comes from?Yourself?
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:26/01/2011 6:33 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Guest. Re conversation at this thread

I'm not too sure who you were responding to, but there are several points that I'm hoping you would clarify for me.

To cut things short our relationship got very intimate and I was removed from RCI when they found out. This was a very difficult time for me as I did not believe I had done anything but had just fallen in love and would have got engaged and married my girl friend at some stage if given the guidance and opportunity. Are you suggesting that you didn't understand why being sexually 'intimate' with a girl whom you weren't married to was wrong, Scripturally?

I have moved on and in a great marriage now (as Christ still blesses us) but things could have been different if RCI followed the scriptures rather than condemnation. Okay, but could you please highlight which Scriptures you believe the RCI should have followed in your circumstance?

After reading your Post I also agree and see how the “Church” should have handled the situation. Guidance into an engagement and marriage was the answer and not rules and regulations that divide and separate. Again, could you please point out for me which Scriptures support this approach? The way RCI handles the situation caused me and all involved such grief. Do you think that your own actions might have been responsible for causing you grief as well, or does all the blame rest with the 'church'? My only hope and contentment was in the Word of God (as I see the scriptures the same as you do), in that maybe RCI had got it wrong (as they labelled me a “fornicator”) and that they followed the rule of man rather the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Sure. But which Scriptures support your POV over and against the RCI's?

Blessings, Ian



Have I walked in to a forum that supports RCI?

You sound more like an apologist for them Ian.

Very weird.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:26/01/2011 9:03 PMCopy HTML

Having observed the way that some ex-members are treated on here, I am truly disturbed.

A certain person who has set himself up as the authority is not treating many of you in the way I'd expect from a forum that is supposed to be 'supportive' of ex-members.

I believe that many of you are criticised for things that actually happened to you as a result of being in that cult, which is wrong.

The focus a certain person brings to this forum is on the behaviour of the ex-members, and not on the cult itself, which is also wrong.

I'd like to highlight the fact that these groups are cults and there are many good cultwatch websites out there which can give you objective information about cults and which will not try to demoralise you even more than you may be already.

The Cultwatch website based in New Zealand seems like one of these. It states:

'Our dislike is for the various cult systems and organisations, but not for cult members themselves.  Therefore we recommend that you never treat a cult member unkindly. Instead, encourage them to research their group independently: help them to discover the other side of the story' 

I think the person who I'm referring to should consider this, as in, 'please consider'.

https://www.howcultswork.com


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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:26/01/2011 9:56 PMCopy HTML

Oh Eric, since you and your friend Ian, whom you support so intensively, are so well-versed and scripturally minded, then I do defer most humbly to your magnificent opinion, oh most holier than thou.

Many people have posted things on this forum about terrible things that have happened to them because of their involvement with these cults. And in almost every case they are berated by Ian for what should have done to avoid being treated like that, how unscriptural their behaviour was in the first place and how ill-informed they are about almost everything.

Now, that is just not acceptable.

It is a form of spiritual abuse.

And all this from a former RCI pastor himself! Incredible.

The same techniques, but just a different context.

I'm so sickened by the things I've read here.

Theology is available to EVERYONE, you only have to open a Bible and read the thing.

There you will find everything you need to know.

Jesus didn't talk in fancy, fluffed-up language.

He spoke normally, in ways we could all identify with.

Goodbye oh Most Magnificents.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:26/01/2011 10:32 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, AN&S.

I thought you'd packed your bongoes and left town? Anyway, as usual I've opted to combine all of your posts, and provide just the one response.

Have I walked in to a forum that supports RCI? To answer that questions requires an answer to this question: how good are your comprehension skills? You sound more like an apologist for them Ian. Why? Because I pointed out that a person was responsible for his own mistakes? Very weird. 'Fair' is weird in your universe?

Wow, Ian. Your reply to this guest is bordering on the spiritually abusive. Because he doesn't know Greek then he must listen to your answer? Are you for real? You should probably spend a little time reading through the entire thread, to acquaint yourself with the contours of the discussion. Much of that fellow's misunderstanding results from him failing to accept that his definition of the Greek word translated by the KJV as 'fornication', is wrong. And if you think my response is bordering on being 'spiritually abusive', then you must be a very delicate thing. You appear to be completely overlooking the entirely valid points that this Guest has made in favour of impressing everyone with your own knowledge of an ancient tongue. Please, list for me all of those 'entirely valid points' that you found so convincing, as I'll be honest, I can't recall a single one that fits the description.

How very legalistic and pharisaical. One reason the Reformation began was because people were fed up with the Church assuming authority over them by not allowing Bibles to be read in their own languages. Telling this person that unless he believes your interpretation of the Greek and everything else you say about this matter, then he doesn't think properly in theological terms is just wrong. Actually, and in the true spirit of the Reformation, our friend is perfectly capable of picking up a decent Greek lexicon (e.d. Bauer, Abbott-Smith, LSJ, etc) and looking up the word πορνεία for himself. Were he to do so, then he would soon discover that his interpretation of the word's meaning is wrong, and that what I've explained isn't my interpretation, but the word's actual definition. Next, sharing the benefits of my theological education is no more 'priestcraft' than is a doctor sharing the benefits of a medical education, 'witchcraft'. Third, how is what I've done 'legalistic' or 'pharisaical'. Do you even understand what these words conote? Or are they just the standard 'throw-away' epithets you apply to people whose opinions you disagree with? (we both know the answer to this question already, eh?)

A supportive environment, really? And truly.

Guest - the points Ian appears to have overlooked. Yes, a supposed church like these claim to be has absolutely no right in assuming authority over individuals and the relationships that they form with other people in that group/church, unless of course that relationship is destructive or abusive to one or other of the individuals concerned, then the church should deal with and/or possibly expel the wrongdoer. According to Scripture a Christian church (noting that the RCI doesn't meet the requirements to be considered one) has the responsibility to suspend fellowship from an unrepentant sinner (see 1 Corinthians 5:11 for an example germane to this discussion).

A matter of a boy meets girl should be dealt with by the individuals concerned and the parents, if they are still of that kind of age. According to whom? Jesus? Paul? You?

It seems that you perhaps regret the possibilities that a life with this other person in your former church may have given you. It can't be easy to think that such people and their authoritarianism got in the way of what could have been a very happy and loving relationship for you. But this surely highlights the destructive capacities of these kind of cults and how they are capable of hurting and controlling people in ways that are entirely unrelated to Scripture and how God would have a church behave. And yet our friend didn't seek to re-establish and further the former relationship when he came of age. Why is that, do you think?

I'd like to emphasis, despite certain others input here, that the problems lie with this cult and NOT you. I think you're going to need to provide more than just your opinion to be convincing to anyone who rates Scripture as the standard guide to Christian behaviour. To begin with, and as I pointed out previously, the RCI is completely wrong holding to a policy which permanently excludes 'fornicators' like 'Guest' from fellowship. They were not wrong, however, in (1) refusing to condone his behaviour; (2) refusing to allow it to continue; and (3) refusing to marry the couple given their ages. On the flipside 'Guest' is himself in the wrong in (1) attempting to avoid any personal responsibility for his sinning; (2) in doing so failing to repent of his sin; and (3) in his faulty understanding of the biblical, historical and Christian position of what constitutes a marriage.

I'm glad that you are happily married now. And I hope you are in a much better church. Having observed the way that some ex-members are treated on here, I am truly disturbed. A certain person who has set himself up as the authority is not treating many of you in the way I'd expect from a forum that is supposed to be 'supportive' of ex-members. Given that 'certain person' provides informed commentary and advice from a consciously Christian, rather than from a humanist perspective, I'm surprised that you're surprised. What were you expecting? Complete and unqualified agreement with any statement from any person who disagrees with any action undertaken by any of the Revivalist sects? If so, then you are even more naive than I previously thought.

I believe that many of you are criticised for things that actually happened to you as a result of being in that cult, which is wrong. Actually, 'Guest' is no longer in said Revivalist sect. My criticism, then, has to do with his current beliefs and behaviours. The focus a certain person brings to this forum is on the behaviour of the ex-members, and not on the cult itself, which is also wrong. Two points. First, this 'certain person' is focusing on the current behavour of an ex-member, on one who claims to being Christian, and yet whose current beliefs on the subject are contrary to those described in Scripture. Second, perhaps when you've done as much as this 'certain person' has in critiquing and dismantling the RCI's faulty theology in the public arena, your assessment might have a little more 'puff' behind it. As it is, you 'blew' away any credibility that you might have otherwise enjoyed, ages ago.

I'd like to highlight the fact that these groups are cults and there are many good cultwatch websites out there which can give you objective information about cults and which will not try to demoralise you even more than you may be already.The Cultwatch website based in New Zealand seems like one of these. It states: 'Our dislike is for the various cult systems and organisations, but not for cult members themselves.  Therefore we recommend that you never treat a cult member unkindly. Instead, encourage them to research their group independently: help them to discover the other side of the story'. There are several definitions for the word 'cult'. The one that you think is primary is simply the 'popularist' definition. I don't use the word in that way because: (1) it's misleading; and, (2) it's used as little more than a 'hate' word (like 'moron'). There are better and more appropriate descriptors such as 'sect', 'heresy' and 'aberration', for example. And as for how you believe I should approach certain former members of the various Revivalist sects, well, one could probably write a rather long book on what you don't know about the matter.

I think the person who I'm referring to should consider this, as in, 'please consider'. I think the person you were referring to considers every post that's made here; further, that he assesses their merits of each against a fairly comprehensive range of criteria. Likely as not he rejects those that are based on little more than emotion, supposition, faulty reasoning, and/or scriptural, historical and theological ignorance/naivety. And, of course, he makes a very clear distinction in the way that he responds to the 'wilfully' ignorant, as opposed to the 'simply' ignorant.

Goose.

Ian

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:26/01/2011 10:54 PMCopy HTML

A&NS,

Many people have posted things on this forum about terrible things that have happened to them because of their involvement with these cults. And in almost every case they are berated by Ian for what should have done to avoid being treated like that, how unscriptural their behaviour was in the first place and how ill-informed they are about almost everything. Blah, blah, blah. All of my assessments are based on, drawn from, and involve Christian Scripture. As the Bible isn't a controlled book, as it's freely available to all and sundry, and as it forms the normative standard by which all Christian belief, practice and conduct is to be assessed, you marvel that a Christian expects other 'Christians' to share a high view of its worth?

Now, that is just not acceptable. Bollocks. It is a form of spiritual abuse. Bollocks. And all this from a former RCI pastor himself! Incredible. It certainly is incredible, given that I was never an RCI pastor.

The same techniques, but just a different context. Bollocks. I'm so sickened by the things I've read here. Then please feel free to put your head in a toilet, throw up all of that bile, and come back here once your thinking is clear.

Theology is available to EVERYONE, you only have to open a Bible and read the thing. It's that simple, huh? Hang on ... don't Revivalists claim to be doing precisely that? They 'open a Bible and read the thing', and yet they can still come up with all sorts of weird and whacky doctrines, practices and behaviours that no-one else can find described in there. That sort of leaves me thinking there must be more to good 'theology' than what you've just described.

There you will find everything you need to know. I fully agree. Jesus didn't talk in fancy, fluffed-up language. No, he spoke in Aramaic and Greek. But he did use some very fancy rhetorical techniques to get his message across from time to time.

He spoke normally, in ways we could all identify with. Yes he did. But only if we: (1) speak Aramaic and Greek, as I previously mentioned. (2) Live in a first century Jewish culture. (3) Live in Palestine. (4) Undertand the Old Testament intimately in both Hebrew and Greek, etc.

So, are you going to fill the role of 'stalker to the stars' now that Galien has taken a break?

Goodbye oh Most Magnificents. Good bye, silly ignorants (I hope you'll excuse my poor attempt at homophony).

Ian
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:29/01/2011 2:01 AMCopy HTML

Ian - please, remind me once again. Who died and made you God?

You cannot control everything in life, especially not people who disagree with you.

You need to learn and understand this.

And how can you have the gall to even question the definition of cults defined by the https://www.howcultswork.com website?

Are you even better than them now?

You who chooses to uphold these cults on a forum supposed to exist to help ex-members with problems caused by these cults?

Very odd and questionable.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:29/01/2011 2:13 AMCopy HTML

Ian - one more point. Underlining everything you say with a word or passage from scripture is an easy thing to do, if you have all day and night to spend on your computer as you seem to have.

It's also an easy thing to do if you see God as some kind of mathematical formula.

What's harder to do Ian, and you are a case in point, is to relate what the Bible says to human need on a rational basis AND on a basis that is contextual.

Nothing is in context with you. Apart from, of course, in the context of the private war you are fighting.

All you do is fire your machine gun randomly at anyone who you believe is attacking you. This says more about you than anyone.

Goodbye.



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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:29/01/2011 7:22 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

I apologise in advance should this offend you, but if I was seeking scriptural answers to life's greatest questions, then you'd likely be the second to last person that I'd be asking. Put simply you lack credibility, and you're nothing if not persistent in confirming as much each and every time that you post what are your misguided opinions, here. It's particularly unfortunate for someone claiming to being Christian, but you really do give the impression that you simply don't know very much about what the historic Christian Church believes and teaches.

Next, am I to understand that you've chosen to adopt the mantle formerly worn by Galien, that of Ian-fixated serial pest? If you truly are as you present, that is someone who is long on opinion but short on facts, then the role suits you to a 'tee'. As I pointed out to friends recently, the resemblances between the two of you are striking! Finally, I normally don't read 'Christianity Today', but there's an article in it that you probably should read. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/januaryweb-only/heresyisheresy.html

Goose,

Ian

P.S. You've said 'goodbye' before and not followed through with the promise; will you be true to your word this time?
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:30/01/2011 12:44 AMCopy HTML

Ian - you have no right to judge anothers salvation! How dare you? You do this all the time.

The problem here Ian is that you assume that everyone who posts here is somehow deficient in their walk with God and in need of 'rebuke'. But this is a very unhelpful schema to work from.

I am not going to be bullied and demeaned by you. It will not work. You do not intimidate or frighten me.

A good teacher Ian is one who does not assume that those he is to teach are 'empty vessels'. No, Ian, a good teacher is one who works with the knowledge that a 'pupil' has and uses that knowledge to help the pupil arrive at more advanced conclusions about life, in whatever context that refers to.

You speak to people who disagree with your own agenda with such disrespect and rudeness I can hardly believe how many people actually stick around to listen to you.

I think you've got your aims mixed up here Ian.

Is not your aim to tackle false theology? And that is admirable, if it is so, but you have other aims here. These other aims seem to be to 'rebuke' and order those who do not immediately accept your interpretation of their experiences to 'repent'.

Can you not see how that is particularly unhelpful to those who have already experienced being in the environment of a controlling church?

Further, your constant references to 'Galien' is odd. Just shows how paranoid you are.  It is also shows that you seem incapable of accepting that there are other people who have discovered this forum who would dare to disagree with how you treat people.



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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:30/01/2011 3:30 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

There are degrees of ignorance, just as there are degrees of arrogance. But when profound ignorance is coupled with heightened arrogance, and then is promoted in pseudo-Christian 'dress', it beggars belief to assume that people who know better (such as moi) won't choose to comment. It's downright daft, actually.

So let's review.

First, you've clearly taken offense that I've questioned your 'salvation'. Why, exactly? Is it the altogether naive assumption that doing so is 'off-limits' to Christians? If so, then I can only comment that such a view stands at variance to the example provided throughout the New Testament. After all, how can believers preach the Christian Gospel without first making judgments about the spiritual states of those to whom they preach? Such an attitude also causes me to doubt that you properly understand what is inferred in Scripture by the term 'salvation'. Obviously, from my perspective your claim to being 'saved' is quite suspect, given the remarkably 'fleshy' nature of your conduct here over many weeks. After all you readily stand in judgment of others, but you refuse to be judged by others. This, of course, is naught but hypocrisy honed to a very fine edge. Given your decidedly evident lack of biblical and theological knowledge, I'm left thinking that if ever there was a totally 'empty vessel' in need of being filled with sound Christian teaching, it would be you. Might I ask, do you actually attend a Christian Church, somewhere that biblical discipleship in the Word is encouraged and practiced?

Although I find your involvement here to be largely trite and unproductive, responding to your missives provides me with the opportunity to record a series of permanent 'object lessons' in simple Christian apologetics. These might be of some benefit to those Christians who visit here, providing them with examples of how they might engage, and respond, to the nonsense presented by those Revivalists whom they encounter. In point of fact several 'regulars' have made comments of this sort to me over the years.

Repent, goose.

Ian
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:07/02/2011 11:20 PMCopy HTML

Oh yes. I forgot to say, Ian, that ordering people to 'repent' is really not your responsibility.

Only God and the Holy Spirit can minister within a body's soul to convict and/or convince them that whatever behaviour/belief/attitude is not suitable for a Christian.

And only an ordained, respectable and genuine minister of the cloth, whether Catholic, Presbyterian or whatever, has the right to assume the authority to tell someone they should 'repent' and that only after that person has had a long, deep and mutually respectful discussion with said minister who is then in a position to 'advise'. You take the whole 'repent' thing out of context on here.  The assumption of this authority by nutcases and spiritual frauds is the reason why so many people have been damaged by groups like RCI and CAI. Should you not be setting a different example since your aims appear to be so much more admirable? 

I think it's misplaced and ultimately unhelpful for you, Eric and the other people who follow your example to do this.

And - no! It's not Christian. Not in this context.
 
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:10/02/2011 4:14 PMCopy HTML

Ian - I honestly wonder how you can claim to be a proper Minister of God's Word and Church. You are nothing of the sort. I don't know and have never met in all my life any minister of God who is so insulting, derisory and full of false assumptions about those he speaks to.  The superiority you assume for yourself on here is completely at odds with the person of Christ.

You jump in with guns blazing, firing away with things like 'what do you know about the CAI/RCI?' - let me tell you I have experienced and know a lot more about how these fraudsters operate and the horrendous impact they have on some families than you ever will sitting in your little theological ivory tower, condemning those who don't agree with your particular interpretations of Scripture.

And put names to posts? Why do you insist on this? There is anonymity here for a reason. Can you not understand that some people here have suffered extreme trauma at the hands of some of these groups? Yet, you constantly berate and belittle these kind of experiences. You lack the true fruits of a true Christian.

Your theological reasoning against what you call 'Revivalist' doctrine is merely academic - beyond your ability to apply scripture to things, you have nothing except a detestable way of insulting people who don't agree with you.

Are you aware of how appalling your language towards some people on here actually is?

Are you aware of how unfounded most of the assumptions you make about people who disagree with you actually are?

And - Ian. You claim to be an ordained minister. I see no evidence of the fruits of the Spirit in you. So I completely refute the self-appointed role of authoritarian teacher that you assume on here. You have NO authority over others to order them to 'repent' as you do on a constant basis.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who sees you bring the same kind of oppressive and authoritarian personality traits that are so obviously evident amongst so many of your former RCI buddies.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 1:05 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, AN&S.

Oh yes. I forgot to say, Ian, that ordering people to 'repent' is really not your responsibility. Show me a Scripture to support this contention. And then trawl through the New Testament and have a look at what the likes of John the Baptist, the apostle Peter, the evangelists Philip and Stephen through the apostle Paul demonstrated were their views on the matter. Only God and the Holy Spirit can minister within a body's soul to convict and/or convince them that whatever behaviour/belief/attitude is not suitable for a Christian. And God, the Holy Spirit, ordinarily does so through the ministration of Christian believers. In other words, my approach is not only biblical, but is also historically defensible as being the long-standing and ordinary Christian practice.

And only an ordained, respectable and genuine minister of the cloth, whether Catholic, Presbyterian or whatever, has the right to assume the authority to tell someone they should 'repent' and that only after that person has had a long, deep and mutually respectful discussion with said minister who is then in a position to 'advise'. You take the whole 'repent' thing out of context on here. You may be interested to discover that I am ordained as a 'minister of the Word', albeit not a 'minister of the sacrament'. Consequently I am charged to challenge, provoke, upbraid, teach, nuture, convince, convict and correct Christian believers from the Word of God inscripturated. So ...? The assumption of this authority by nutcases and spiritual frauds is the reason why so many people have been damaged by groups like RCI and CAI. First, what do you personally know about groups such as the CAI and the RCI? Remarkably little, I'd wager. Second, the reason that I am here is because of the nonsense that such groups promote. Should you not be setting a different example since your aims appear to be so much more admirable? How I engage with people depends completely on how said people choose to respond when engaged with. To those who are honestly seeking informed answers, I am as soft as 'a dove wrapped in tissue paper'. To the contentious, malicious and wilfully ignorant know-it-alls, my approach is more that of an 'iron fist wrapped in a velvet glove'.

I think it's misplaced and ultimately unhelpful for you, Eric and the other people who follow your example to do this. I'm sure you do, but then again you don't really don't know one way or the other, huh? How many people have you personally helped to leave Revivalism behind, so as to embrace a more orthodox and balanced form of Christianity? I'd wager the answer would be 'none', so you're not exactly the 'expert' to be pontificating on the subject.

And - no! It's not Christian. Not in this context. Au contraire, my ignorant but opinionated friend.

Ian - I honestly wonder how you can claim to be a proper Minister of God's Word and Church. My claim was to being a minister of the Word; I didn't claim to being a minister of the Church (in fact I expressly delineated between the two). You are nothing of the sort. I don't know and have never met in all my life any minister of God who is so insulting, derisory and full of false assumptions about those he speaks to. I'm sure that you haven't. But then again I doubt that you'd often darken the doorway of a Church, or accept the advice of those who know better than you. The superiority you assume for yourself on here is completely at odds with the person of Christ. My 'superiority' to others here, such as it is, is limited to a better and more detailed knowledge of biblical and theological studies, and a better understanding of how such applies to Revivalist dogma. That's it. I will point out, however, that it was you who has claimed to be possessing: (1) a superior intelligence, (2) superior educational qualifications, and (3) superior debating skills. I should be surprised, then, to find you once again playing the hypocrite?

You jump in with guns blazing, firing away with things like 'what do you know about the CAI/RCI?' - let me tell you I have experienced and know a lot more about how these fraudsters operate and the horrendous impact they have on some families than you ever will sitting in your little theological ivory tower, condemning those who don't agree with your particular interpretations of Scripture. First, my guns rarely if ever 'blaze' here, as I'm far too phlegmatic a person to be concerned abouit such shenanigans. There's also the fact that the majority of the 'gunslingers' who try to take me on haven't either the right 'shooting irons', or the right 'shooting skills' to be causing me to seriously use my 'guns' to their full potential. Second, you're actually on the record admitting that you've never been a member of the CAI/RCI. Your involvement was peripheral, not central, and sporadic at best. If you recall you once became very indignant when I assumed that you might have been a member, once. Indignant and offended, no less! Third I can, and do, substantiate all of my interpretations of Scripture, and then often to the n'th degree. Those who are much less capable of backing up their silly novelties really should whine less and study more. Finally, your claim to knowing 'a lot more about how these fraudsters operate' than I do is too silly to warrant a response. You are, in every respect, a 'Jenny come lately' (and we all know what a 'Jenny' is, eh?)

And put names to posts? Why do you insist on this? There is anonymity here for a reason. Indeed. And the 'names' that I put to posts are invariably nom-de-plumes. Anonymity that's sought expressly for the purpose of maliciousness or 'sock-puppetry' just doesn't 'cut-it' with me, and you've been guilty of both misdemeanors, haven't you? Can you not understand that some people here have suffered extreme trauma at the hands of some of these groups? Yet, you constantly berate and belittle these kind of experiences. I neither berate nor belittle these sorts of experiences. What I do, however, is reflect upon such claims and evaluate them against the contexts in which they've been made, and the behaviour of those making the claims. Some people simply don't present as being credible, and I consider you to be in this category. You lack the true fruits of a true Christian. I suppose there are enough 'fruity' Christians roaming the world as it is! I'm more of a 'what-you-see-is-what-you-get' kind of guy. Further, I'm bold enough to claim to having a very 'fruitful' history as a Christian.

Your theological reasoning against what you call 'Revivalist' doctrine is merely academic - beyond your ability to apply scripture to things, you have nothing except a detestable way of insulting people who don't agree with you. Again, another unfounded assessment from an ingorant critic. Are you aware of how appalling your language towards some people on here actually is? Completely. Are you aware of how unfounded most of the assumptions you make about people who disagree with you actually are? I'm aware that my assumptions are much less unfounded, and much more accurate than you presume them to be.

And - Ian. You claim to be an ordained minister. I claimed to be ordained to minister the Word of God, i.e. ordained to preach and teach. I've made no claims to being an ordained Minister so please, do try to adequately comprehend what you read as you read it. I see no evidence of the fruits of the Spirit in you. It's 'fruit' of the Spirit (singular) and not 'fruits' (plural), actually. In any case, as you're clearly spiritually blind, I don't suppose I should be fretting too much at what you claim to be seeing. So I completely refute the self-appointed role of authoritarian teacher that you assume on here. You have NO authority over others to order them to 'repent' as you do on a constant basis. Refute away. The 'authority' that I exercise here is twofold: first, I act as a moderator on this forum as that the owner of this site so appointed me to be. Second, I have the authority to present informed opinions on biblical, theological and Revivalist-specific topics, as that I am an expert in these areas, and I was invited here by the forum owner to do precisely that. People certainly don't have to accept my opinions, but should they choose to argue against them, then it's probably best that they prepare themselves beforehand.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who sees you bring the same kind of oppressive and authoritarian personality traits that are so obviously evident amongst so many of your former RCI buddies. 'Yes'. Apparently there are  four of you.

Goose,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 3:32 AMCopy HTML

Ian - let me just point out the insults you have wagered against me and the things you have falsely assumed about me in your last derogatory response.

1) You said you doubted if I 'ever darkened the doorway of a church'. What exactly do you mean by this? To me it suggests that you think I am somehow of the 'dark side', a kind of evil spirit. Now that to me is spiritually offensive and you have absolutely no understanding of my life and faith on which to base this insult.

The truth is I am a beloved Child of God and I frequently attend church.

2) You said I lack the 'personal experiences' to know about CAI. On what are you basing this? Given that you know nothing about me or my personal life? For your information I HAVE had personal experiences of these malicious people and if you CHOOSE to tell me otherwise, you make yourself look even more of a fool than you actually are.

3) As to the point of never having been a member - yes. I never have been a member but a family member was and I was affected very badly through that. You have no knowledge of what I've been through.

4) You insult me by calling me 'spiritually blind'. Excuse me, but how do you know this? It is you who has no light.

5) You say that when I said I know exactly how these fraudsters in CAI/RCI operate is 'too silly to warrant a response'. Really? Are you telling me that my experiences are 'silly'? Do you know how offensive and insulting that is? Do you know what my experiences have been? On what are you basing this.

6) You bizarrely and falsely state that I have claimed to have more superior intelligence, educational qualifications and debating skills than others on here. This is just a lie. What you are doing here is a technique often employed by people who are emotionally abusive - you turn what I have accused you of around to me. No Ian. It is you who, in almost every post, assumes these things about yourself.

7) Yes, you are not a minister of God's Church. That comes across VERY clearly. You are a loose cannon with a theology degree who thinks because he has a qualification he can lord it over others in an authoritarian fashion. You have not the proper spirit to be a minister of the church. Thank God.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 3:59 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

Ian - let me just point out the insults you have wagered against me and the things you have falsely assumed about me in your last derogatory response. I guess I've started to learn the rules to your game, huh? Why so sad?

1) You said you doubted if I 'ever darkened the doorway of a church'. What exactly do you mean by this? To me it suggests that you think I am somehow of the 'dark side', a kind of evil spirit. Now that to me is spiritually offensive and you have absolutely no understanding of my life and faith on which to base this insult. Are you seriously that obtuse? The expression, 'to darken the door of a church' is a common one, and the connection is completely unlike the inference that you've drawn. The truth is I am a beloved Child of God and I frequently attend church. Oh, I see. This claim from one who earlier stated that she prefers to 'try before she buys' with respect to the subject of sex and marriage? I'm left thinking that the 'walk' doesn't really match the 'talk'.

2) You said I lack the 'personal experiences' to know about CAI. On what are you basing this? Given that you know nothing about me or my personal life? For your information I HAVE had personal experiences of these malicious people and if you CHOOSE to tell me otherwise, you make yourself look even more of a fool than you actually are. That's not what I said at all. Whatever your 'personal experiences' of the CAI are, they were as an o-u-t-s-i-d-e-r; largely mediated through a relative who you claimed was a member of the organisation. That was my point.

3) As to the point of never having been a member - yes. I never have been a member but a family member was and I was affected very badly through that. You have no knowledge of what I've been through. I've a good idea about what you've claimed, though. I've also got a fairly good idea that you haven't anywhere near the first-hand understanding of Revivalism that you present as having, here. Importantly, you have very little idea of my personal experience in the RCI, and of Revivalism generally, and next to no idea of my post-Revivalist ministry. And yet, in spite of these grave deficiencies you believe yourself qualified to say what I am, or are not? Stop playing the hypocrite, and try pouting a little less while you're at it.

4) You insult me by calling me 'spiritually blind'. Excuse me, but how do you know this? It is you who has no light.  I pointed out that you're spiritually blind because that's precisely how you present yourself as being. 'Blind Freddy' would have enough visual acuity to 'see' as much.

5) You say that when I said I know exactly how these fraudsters in CAI/RCI operate is 'too silly to warrant a response'. Really? Are you telling me that my experiences are 'silly'? Do you know how offensive and insulting that is? Do you know what my experiences have been? On what are you basing this. Clearly your reading comprehension skills are even worse than I first feared! What I actually said was, "Finally, your claim to knowing 'a lot more about how these fraudsters operate' than I do is too silly to warrant a response."

6) You bizarrely and falsely state that I have claimed to have more superior intelligence, educational qualifications and debating skills than others on here. This is just a lie. What you are doing here is a technique often employed by people who are emotionally abusive - you turn what I have accused you of around to me. No Ian. It is you who, in almost every post, assumes these things about yourself. You might want to go back and re-read some of your posts from late last year, the same ones that earned you the 'nick', 'Anonymous Namer & Shamer'. Therein you claimed to being (1) smarter than me, to having (2) more and higher academic credentials than me, and (3) to be able to beat me easily at debate. I'd be very happy to provide you with the links to those conversations if you'd like; just say the word.

7) Yes, you are not a minister of God's Church. That comes across VERY clearly. You are a loose cannon with a theology degree who thinks because he has a qualification he can lord it over others in an authoritarian fashion. You have not the proper spirit to be a minister of the church. Thank God. Actually, I'm a 'loose canon' with two and three-quarters theology degrees. By-the-bye, over the years I've been approached by the Baptist, Presbyterian, Assemblies of God and Australian Orthodox with offers of ministerial ordination. I declined, as I'm better suited to my preferred forms of ministry.

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 4:41 AMCopy HTML

Ian - something to consider:

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge: and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.' 1 Corinthians 13:1-2.

Surely I don't need to explain the point, do I?

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 4:47 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

Ian - you say you are a minister of the Word but not of the Church, but how can this be?The two are not mutually exclusive. 'No', and neither are they necessarily inclusive. In your country, for example, a non-priested Anglican can receive a license to preach and teach (known as a licentiate) from the local Bishop. Such a person then is ordained as a minister of the Word, but not a minister of the Sacrament. The same applies in Australia for Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational and Presybeterian churches. An ordained church minister is a Minister of the Word. Clearly. You say you have 'authority to preach and teach', but who gives you this authority if not a church? Yourself? The churches in which I both preach and teach. To date pulpits are open to me in Baptist, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Assemblies of God, Methodist and a few non-aligned, independent fellowships. Having a theology degree does not make anyone a minister of God's word. Obviously, but it is a prerequisite to ordination in all responsible churches. And I just so happen to be one of those people who teach others who are training for Christian ministry. No lay-person can be a minister of God's word, because he is not ordained. Rubbish. Your understanding of what's implied by the term 'ordained' is too narrow, as is your understanding of what's implied by the terms 'clergy' and 'laity'. So explain where your authority to 'preach and teach' comes from? I think I just have.

Ian - something to consider: 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge: and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.' 1 Corinthians 13:1-2. Surely I don't need to explain the point, do I? Do you honestly believe yourself up to the task of exegeting Scripture for me? However, I reckon I probably would need to explain to you what's implied by the term 'charity'. I just don't think you 'get' it.

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 6:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

AN&S,

 'No', and neither are they necessarily inclusive. In your country, for example, a non-priested Anglican can receive a license to preach and teach (known as a licentiate) from the local Bishop. Such a person then is ordained as a minister of the Word, but not a minister of the Sacrament. The same applies in Australia for Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational and Presybeterian churches.

Hi Ian,

Can a baccalaureate be granted an LTh ??

Blessings

Eric

ps taking a break this semester for elective surgery purposes but will back into next semester..
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 7:48 PMCopy HTML

Ian - I really do wonder what churches you preach in and why they actually allow you to.

Are they aware of the side of your personality that you indulge on this forum?

Do they know that you are nothing but a bully of ex-members of 'Revivalism'?

Do they know how insulting, accusing and judgemental you are to some people here?

I seriously doubt what you claim about preaching in churches. When was the last time you did so?

And Ian - once again you imply that I have no understanding of Scripture when I quoted from 1Cor 13. Do you not realise how abusive that is? That is not the reaction of a proper Minister of the Word. You have not the correct attitude to claim any moral or spiritual authority.

Why are you so blind to your own awful behaviour, attitude and tone?

It is my full belief that you are NOT of the right mind or spirit to teach or assume authority over others in this regard, particularly on this forum.

Even if you do preach in some churches - this does not give you the status of an ordained minister. You have no right to trick people into believing that you have more status than you actually do when it comes to teaching the Word of God, which is what I believe that you do - deceive.

When do you actually preach? Because you appear to spend most of your time on here, every minute of every day, answering the posts who you decide not to like with your various insults and derisory tone.

Nobody Christian on here, Ian, is duty-bound to listen to you. Rather, they should listen to their own church, if it is a true Christian church, and are quite free to disagree with you. Yet, you claim otherwise.

This forum should not be about YOU Ian. It is supposed to be a forum to HELP ex-members and affected families.

It is NOT supposed to be about you and your pathetic inclination to bully and badger people into believing your own particular interpretations of scripture whether those people be Christian, Atheists, ex-members or whatever.

You set an incredibly bad example of a Christian to the unsaved on here.



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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 8:01 PMCopy HTML

Ian - you ask in your mocking tone if I am up to 'exegeting Scripture' for you. The mark of egocentric narcissist is to use words that are unusual. Why not just say 'interpret'? And, I am most certainly 'up to the task' of Scriptural interpretation. As Christians, we are ALL called to interpret Scripture - this is not confined to ministers, of which you are not even one.

And that is why it is so unacceptable that you challenge many people on here who quote Scripture, just because you 'know' them, or because you think they are an ex-Revivalist, or because you tell them they are not Christian.

Are you the only one here who is able to interpret and quote from the Word of God? How dare you say so!

When I said only ordained people can minister God's Word, I meant to preach and teach in the manner that you assume for yourself on this forum. Yet now I know why I had such a bad instinct about you and your mocking, derisory tone, because there's no other way to explain it. You are not even a minister.

You could be any Tom, Dick or Harry, couldn't you?

And, I know full well that many churches who are not quite 'with it' will allow all sorts of wackos to preach, if in fact that is what you actually do.

Do not mock my capacity to interpret Scripture. It is cruel and should not happen on a forum such as this. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'cruel'? Or are you so detached from the normal forms of human interaction that the little world you've created for yourself on here is your norm?

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 8:20 PMCopy HTML

Let me interpret some Scripture for you:

'Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him'. 1 Cor:1-2.

'Verily I say unto you, except yet be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea'. Matt18:3-6 


Jesus Christ himself said that his mission from God was to:

'preach the gospel to the poor....heal the brokenhearted...preach deliverence to the captives...recover the sight of the blind...and set at liberty them that are bruised.'  Luke 4:18

I don't see much of that in your self-appointed ministry here.

Finally:

'A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.' Luke 6:45

Need is actually interpret or is it not yet self-evident?
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:11/02/2011 11:39 PMCopy HTML

Ian - tired of me yet? No?

Let me offer you one more Scriptural interpretation for your edification - the most important of them all, in fact, but silly me, I forgot the first time. So here it is:

'And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceiving not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.' Luke 6: 41-42

Note how I do not IMPOSE my own interpretation onto God's Word but I let the interpretation speak for itself by simply presenting you with the truth of what the Gospel teaches. It's really rather simple. Shame you have to complicate things so much.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 12:29 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest
Ian - tired of me yet? No?

Let me offer you one more Scriptural interpretation for your edification - the most important of them all, in fact, but silly me, I forgot the first time. So here it is:

'And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceiving not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.' Luke 6: 41-42

Note how I do not IMPOSE my own interpretation onto God's Word but I let the interpretation speak for itself by simply presenting you with the truth of what the Gospel teaches. It's really rather simple. Shame you have to complicate things so much.


You really do have “kangaroos jumping about in the top paddock”.

What one reads from your post here is that you are directing this scripture as a problem some people have on here. Well, if you wish to ‘proof-text’ scripture, one can point the finger also at which you are guilty of;

Judging Others

 Luke 6:

   37 “Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

 39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

That also speaks for itself.

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 3:44 AMCopy HTML

AN&S, still at it I see.

Ian - I really do wonder what churches you preach in and why they actually allow you to. I described the sorts of churches that provide me with a pulpit in my last post. Why they do so probably has to do with the fact that I preach reasonably well (I'm also a 'known quantity', you see). Are they aware of the side of your personality that you indulge on this forum? Would that be the side of my personality that wins souls to the Kingdom of God, or that side of my personality that refutes and confounds heretics? Do they know that you are nothing but a bully of ex-members of 'Revivalism'? Ah, yes. The 'bully' charge, yet again.

Do they know how insulting, accusing and judgemental you are to some people here? The only people who would fall into that category would be (1) the heretics, (2) the maladjusted, (3) the anti-social, and (4) the self-righteous. I seriously doubt what you claim about preaching in churches. Based on what, exactly? Your omniscience? When was the last time you did so? Four weeks ago, when I had a weekend free. And Ian - once again you imply that I have no understanding of Scripture when I quoted from 1Cor 13. Do you not realise how abusive that is? 'Abusive', is it? So it's apparently 'abuse' to point out that interpreting Scripture isn't your strong suit? I thought it was telling the truth. That is not the reaction of a proper Minister of the Word. You have not the correct attitude to claim any moral or spiritual authority. First, who are you to stand in judgment of what is, or isn't, the 'reaction of a proper Minister of the Word'? Second, I've claimed neither moral nor spiritual authority; the only authority that I have claimed relates to: (1) my role on this forum, (2) my understanding of biblical and theological studies, and (3) how such interacts with Revivalist dogma. Consequently you probably should try reading what I write before you go accusing me of nonsense.

Why are you so blind to your own awful behaviour, attitude and tone? My behaviouris 'awful' to you because you're apparently blind to your own ignorance, arrogance and maliciousness. My attitude reflects the fact that you speak through your hat; my tone is dismissive because that's what your views warrant. It is my full belief that you are NOT of the right mind or spirit to teach or assume authority over others in this regard, particularly on this forum. What you believe is clearly wrong, then. Even if you do preach in some churches - this does not give you the status of an ordained minister. You have no right to trick people into believing that you have more status than you actually do when it comes to teaching the Word of God, which is what I believe that you do - deceive. Whom have I supposedly 'tricked' into believing that I have more 'status' than I do? People like you? People who clearly can't comprehend simple English as they read it? Let me repeat, I ... very ... clearly ... spelled ... out ... that ... I ... am ... ordained ... to ... minister ... the ... Word ... of ... God ... but ... not ... the ... Sacrament. There. Was that written slowly enough for you to keep up with?

When do you actually preach? Because you appear to spend most of your time on here, every minute of every day, answering the posts who you decide not to like with your various insults and derisory tone. The time that I actually spend 'here' amounts to about two hours a day, off-and-on. I leave the internet connection 'open', and I engage sporadically, but only when the mood takes me. This, you see, is one of my ministries.

Nobody Christian on here, Ian, is duty-bound to listen to you. Rather, they should listen to their own church, if it is a true Christian church, and are quite free to disagree with you. Yet, you claim otherwise. And when have I claimed what you charge me with? Point me to examples, please.

This forum should not be about YOU Ian. It is supposed to be a forum to HELP ex-members and affected families. Which is what I do, rather well, and quite successfully. However, it's people like YOU who try to make this forum about ME, capiche? It is NOT supposed to be about you and your pathetic inclination to bully and badger people into believing your own particular interpretations of scripture whether those people be Christian, Atheists, ex-members or whatever. Then stop making it about me, m'kay? You set an incredibly bad example of a Christian to the unsaved on here. The majority of the 'unsaved' who visit here are likely to be Revivalists or recently ex-Revivalists. The variety of the 'unsaved' that you represent, that is outsiders to Revivalism, are the exception rather than the norm. In any case, my 'strike-rate' at converting the 'unsaved' into the 'saved' is pretty darn good, so I rest content in what I achieve through my efforts at this forum.

Ian - you ask in your mocking tone if I am up to 'exegeting Scripture' for you. The mark of egocentric narcissist is to use words that are unusual. Why not just say 'interpret'? Well, obviously I have to concede to you when it comes to narcissism, but part of my role in educating people is to expand their minds, including in the areas of English grammar and vocabulary. And, I am most certainly 'up to the task' of Scriptural interpretation. Bollocks. As Christians, we are ALL called to interpret Scripture - this is not confined to ministers, of which you are not even one. The interpretation of Scripture is confined to the Church corporately, and not to individuals, whether you or me. I've briefly introduced you to the role that I play in this august body; it's easy enough to guess at the role that you would most likely play. And that is why it is so unacceptable that you challenge many people on here who quote Scripture, just because you 'know' them, or because you think they are an ex-Revivalist, or because you tell them they are not Christian. I challenge people who deign quote Scripture, to properly understand what it is that they quote, to do so responsibly; rather than continuing to read their own opinions into the same. Are you the only one here who is able to interpret and quote from the Word of God? 'Nope', but 'hands-down' I'm the most capable at doing so. How dare you say so! I'm sorry, but it was you who dared to say so, and not I. I guess it all boils down to having a proper understanding of the truth. I do, you don't, 'The End'.

When I said only ordained people can minister God's Word, I meant to preach and teach in the manner that you assume for yourself on this forum. Yet now I know why I had such a bad instinct about you and your mocking, derisory tone, because there's no other way to explain it. You are not even a minister. *Sigh*, you just won't listen, will you? You could be any Tom, Dick or Harry, couldn't you? But I'm not, as I'm not predisposed towards playing at the sort of deceptive anonymity games that you seem partial to.  

And, I know full well that many churches who are not quite 'with it' will allow all sorts of wackos to preach, if in fact that is what you actually do. There is no 'if', m'dear. I can't speak for yours, but in my country, there aren't very many Baptist, Presbyterian, Congregational or Methodist churches (for example) that open their pulpits to theological 'whackos'. My biblical positions sit very comfortably within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, which is probably why I'm accepted by believers spanning the gamut of the Christian faith.

Do not mock my capacity to interpret Scripture. It is cruel and should not happen on a forum such as this. I've met five year olds having a greater capacity to interpret Scripture than you've displayed, so get over yourself. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'cruel'? Do you understand the meaning of the words, 'self-absorbed'? Or are you so detached from the normal forms of human interaction that the little world you've created for yourself on here is your norm? To be perfectly frank, your 'feelings' really aren't my concern. As a moderator here, it's your behaviour and your attitude towards others that interests me. And let me be brutally honest, such is quite offensive to the nose.

(I snipped your further pointless descents into eisegesis)

Repent of your hubris.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 3:48 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

Can a baccalaureate be granted an LTh?? In Europe a Licentiate in Theology (LTh) is more-or-less equivalent to a Bachelor of Theology degree. It's an assessed award that's granted to people who don't have a Bachelor of Arts degree (i.e. a 'first' degree). Those who are BA's are awarded a Bachelor of Divinity degree instead (which is a 'second degree').  If what you meant to ask me was, 'is it possible for a baccalaureate to be granted a preaching licentiate?', then 'yes', most certainly. Each denomination has its own requirements, but the sort of training that you received through your BTh would be well regarded. However, you'd probably need additional qualifications in homiletics before the license was awarded.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 3:56 AMCopy HTML

Might I suggest you take a deep breath, and as a starting point consider that you *may* have some lumber impeding your own vision. For example, if you'd done some research into what Ian's posted here, you would have realised that Ian's reference to "exegeting Scripture" is likely a specific reference to dealing with the "twin horizons" of Scripture.

Further might I suggest a little reflection on the various models of human communication. Unless one is "brain dead" one can't help but interpret. The question for Christians reading Scripture then becomes, "How close is my interpretation to God's interpretation?".  
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 4:02 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

Ian - tired of me yet? No? 'No'. At best I find you amusing, not tiring. However, it's pretty obvious that a few others find your nonsense a tad tedious.

Let me offer you one more Scriptural interpretation for your edification - the most important of them all, in fact, but silly me, I forgot the first time. So here it is:

'And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceiving not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.' Luke 6: 41-42. Hooray! Review our previous discussions and you'll find that I brought this passage to your attention some time ago (it speaks to the subject of your H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y, you see).

Note how I do not IMPOSE my own interpretation onto God's Word but I let the interpretation speak for itself by simply presenting you with the truth of what the Gospel teaches. It's really rather simple. Shame you have to complicate things so much. I see. So interpretation isn't necessary, simply quoting a passage is all that's necessary? I'd love to hear your thoughts on Revelation chapter 20 some time! Anyway, you being all naive and 'simplistic' is not the same as you presenting something 'simple'. Go back and discover the contexts that underpins the wisdom that Luke sort to impart in this example of paraenesis.

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 4:07 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

'sought'

smiley15


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 4:16 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Dog.

'sought'. As the Romans are so fond of saying, mea culpa. Making the occasional spelling mistake invariably happens, from time-to-time, as I type. This time around I think I'll leave the mistake, 'as is', to demonstrate that I am 'hooman' after all.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 11:48 AMCopy HTML

 Yeah

It's always exciting when I find the rare spelling or punctuation mistake in Ian's writing. Sometimes I think he throws one in every few months just to check if we're still reading or not.
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:12/02/2011 9:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Hi, Eric.

Can a baccalaureate be granted an LTh?? In Europe a Licentiate in Theology (LTh) is more-or-less equivalent to a Bachelor of Theology degree. It's an assessed award that's granted to people who don't have a Bachelor of Arts degree (i.e. a 'first' degree). Those who are BA's are awarded a Bachelor of Divinity degree instead (which is a 'second degree').  If what you meant to ask me was, 'is it possible for a baccalaureate to be granted a preaching licentiate?', then 'yes', most certainly. Each denomination has its own requirements, but the sort of training that you received through your BTh would be well regarded. However, you'd probably need additional qualifications in homiletics before the license was awarded.

Blessings,

Ian

Hi Ian,

Cop this Koorong

I have to drop over to Springwood tomorrow so shall have a look.. After nearly a couple of decades of interacting with you on various forae etc, I have learned not to just accept any good sounding theory but I am open to a good argument. I at the moment prefer Timothy because the author appears Jewish. It was written to a Jewish audience and it was written from Italy. Two decades ago your favourite quoted word was "objectivity" but today it is the "g" word :-))  So I shall tread lightly and get back to you...



blessings

Eric 
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 2:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Let me interpret some Scripture for you:

'Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him'. 1 Cor:1-2.

'Verily I say unto you, except yet be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea'. Matt18:3-6 


Jesus Christ himself said that his mission from God was to:

'preach the gospel to the poor....heal the brokenhearted...preach deliverence to the captives...recover the sight of the blind...and set at liberty them that are bruised.'  Luke 4:18

I don't see much of that in your self-appointed ministry here.

Finally:

'A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.' Luke 6:45

Need is actually interpret or is it not yet self-evident?

It is one thing to quote endless scripture. Any goose can do that and I see is a typical RF prooftext approach being applied in your endless quotes.

But Biblical interpretation requires something else. It requires skill and also it requires understanding of the text being presented and it also requires an appropriate methodology to unpack the text being presented.

So I would like to challenge you to go ahead and unpack all the prooftexts that you have copied word for word out of your King James Bible and explain to all of us through a good methodology how each one of your texts applies to Ian.

And if you are going to use Ian as your target then you need to have some basis of understanding of what Ian's personal character is really like in substance. Otherwise you have buckley's chance of applying the personality of  Ian in the light of interpretable scripture. After all a subjective impression doesn't really match the quota...

Eric..

.
 

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 3:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to MothandRust

 Yeah

It's always exciting when I find the rare spelling or punctuation mistake in Ian's writing. Sometimes I think he throws one in every few months just to check if we're still reading or not.

 I gave up reading Lord Ian's posts a while ago. He reminds me of a mange junk yard dog that yapping all the time,  So you toss him a bone and yank his chain and rattle the fence just for fun. Beware of rabies.

Now if you want information that will change your life please watch this Geelong Water You Tube called Fire Water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SMKemanUQ8

You will note that most people who start to watch this don't finish watching the whole thing.
This says a lot about people as they are to into instant gratification and not information even if it will save their live.

Kind of like listening to god I guess.

Naa just kidding....there is not god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SMKemanUQ8

DON'T DRINK GEELONG WATER!!!
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 5:52 AMCopy HTML

Guest,

I gave up reading Lord Ian's posts a while ago. That's okay; I gave up reading conspiracy sites a couple of decades ago, so each to his/her own. Kind of like listening to god I guess. Naa just kidding....there is not god. 'There is not god?' Hmmm, okay, but there are English grammars in the world beyond kindergarten. I commend you to a study of one or two.

In closing, I'm betting that you wear a helmet made of tinfoil so the aliens can't read your thoughts, don't you?

Goose.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 7:12 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Guest,

I gave up reading Lord Ian's posts a while ago. That's okay; I gave up reading conspiracy sites a couple of decades ago, so each to his/her own. Kind of like listening to god I guess. Naa just kidding....there is not god. 'There is not god?' Hmmm, okay, but there are English grammars in the world beyond kindegarten. I commend you to a study of one or two.

In closing, I'm betting that you wear a helmet made of tinfoil so the alien's can't read your thoughts, don't you?


You meant kindergarten?

... and keep a check on the apostrophe use when pluralising aliens.

LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist. Two typos in one post from you... in reply to a possible typo. This is champagne proofreading.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 8:02 AMCopy HTML

Hiya, Pete.

Maybe I've taken to 'salting' my posts to keep the plebs amused?  Mwahahahahaaaaa ...

Blessings, bro'.

Ian

P.S. Oderint dum metuant!
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 11:12 PMCopy HTML

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp3wJjzrrhE

most people are morons and more than willing to be followers and not think for themselves.

For them they have ian. For the rest here is more information that you can use in Geelong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp3wJjzrrhE

If you watch this you tube you will know more than the sheep.
This site now is just the hard core Jesus Christ followers who would never want the truth.

As far as spelling and grammar I never did car for that as anyone who attacks how something is said and not what is said with out looking into it themselves is like attacking Gandhi for being a drinker of his own urine and being short and half naked instead of being the anti Christian freedom fighter trying to toss out one groups of masters for another. But who the hell thinks he was all that and an ice cream cone.


I think ian should have his own web site for his followers. He sure seen to think of himself most than just anti herbie and friends.

But enough about ian and more about those wishing to leave the grc.   
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:14/02/2011 11:59 PMCopy HTML

Guest 37#,

 

……most people are morons and more than willing to be followers and not think for themselves.

For them they have Ian…

 

Would you please expand on this comment? I for one contribute it to Ian's knowledge and teaching as more able to think for myself than ever before.

 

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:15/02/2011 1:18 AMCopy HTML

Goose, oops, I mean 'Guest'.

most people are morons and more than willing to be followers and not think for themselves. 'Yes', and such unthinking morons are those who usually place more stock in alarmist 'YouTube' videos than the facts warrant. For them they have ian. For the rest here is more information that you can use in Geelong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp3wJjzrrhE

If you watch this you tube you will know more than the sheep. You're right, anyone who watches and believes that nonsense will become a cow. And we all know that cows are dumber than sheep by several orders of magnitude. This site now is just the hard core Jesus Christ followers who would never want the truth. Perhaps if the 'hard core' loonies were able to intelligently refute the 'hard core' Jesus people, things might be different.

As far as spelling and grammar I never did car for that as anyone who attacks how something is said and not what is said with out looking into it themselves is like attacking Gandhi for being a drinker of his own urine and being short and half naked instead of being the anti Christian freedom fighter trying to toss out one groups of masters for another. But who the hell thinks he was all that and an ice cream cone. Well, mildly amusing as I've found your spelling and grammar to be, absolutely hysterical to the very ('hard') core are your views on reality.

I think ian should have his own web site for his followers. He sure seen to think of himself most than just anti herbie and friends. Let's be honest for a moment, shall we? Your penchant for spruiking conspiracies, ad infinitum, hardly seems to be doing very much to: (a) destabilise 'Herbie', or (b) assist any former GRC people to attain some sort of 'reality equilibrium'. To be honest, I'm not really sure of the significance that you've apparently found between water fluoridisation and the GRC, so perhaps you should start your own website given how 'off-topic' your missives are? But if you do so, you might want to sort out the spelling and grammar stuff first. Selling your 'interesting' views will be hard enough; harder still if presented by someone writing in crayon.  

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:15/02/2011 10:26 PMCopy HTML

Obviously Ian your interpretations are so warped to your own mental schema that you have no sense of the objective.

So both you and your little Gofers have accused and assumed that I:

1) Am not Christian

2) Don't understand the Bible

3) Am a Revivalist

And - how did you all come to these conclusions?

Ian - you are so completely deluded and obsessed with tackling your 'Revivalist' dogma that you can't see clearly.

You even denigrate Scripture when it is presented to you as something you should address in your own 'ministry' here as you can't seem to believe that you might actually be wrong in your attitudes and derogatory manner with certain people on here.

You obviously have no measure of humility to examine your own part in why so many people cannot bear you and your derision.

Let me explain - you are a fake. You are a bully. You are a power-hungry megalomaniac. You are a sociopath.

Shall I go on?

I am so very glad that you find being verbally and psychologically abusive to a woman who alledged to have been sexually assaulted by members of a CAI church a long time ago so funny.

Now maybe in your country and in your little ex-Revivalist-mentality world that is an acceptable way for a man to behave who purports to be in a position of Christian authority, but in the real, normal world, that would be completely unacceptable and considered as absolutely vile and not at all Christian - the opposite in fact.

I repeat, in any other arena your views and the treatment I have received on here would be considered as absolutely vile and totally misogynist.

You seem incapable of understanding that - preferring to portray me as some kind of deceitful, un-Christian, ex-Revivalist who has a personal grudge against you - to the point of thinking I was called 'Galien'.

How utterly bizarre you are.

I seriously hope that your perceptions come more fully in line with reality because with the supposed authority you presume to 'preach and teach', I find it very worrying that you have been so completely flawed in your interactions with me.

It goes without saying that the Scripture I suggested you take on board for yourself is definitely what you should at least try to understand. Take the plank out your own eye first, then you can see clearly to remove anybody else's.
 
From my original 'Spirit in the Sky' post, which was supposed to be a one-off cathartic exercise, I have repeatedly been subject to such mocking, bullying and frankly attempted humilation and denigration of my post that it is beyond my understanding how you can be so ill-mannered, callous and brutish without showing any sense of regret at any of the lies you have presumed from my posts.

It is no wonder you have people like 'Galien' and 'Luke' and 'Tracey' and the others whom you believed me to have been in your egotistical, paranoid sense of persecution.

Get over yourself and find yourself a heart before you hurt more ex-members, family members etc of these foul cults that destroy lives in the name of a Christian God.

That should be your priority - not being personally abusive and insulting to those who post here who can't stand your self-opinionated, self-righteous, Pharaisaical approach to 'preaching and teaching'.



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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:15/02/2011 10:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon
Hiya, Pete.

Maybe I've taken to 'salting' my posts to keep the plebs amused?  Mwahahahahaaaaa ...

Blessings, bro'.

Ian

P.S. Oderint dum metuant!


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 14/02/2011 2:18 AM)
Or maybe just some age spots starting to show.


I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:15/02/2011 11:08 PMCopy HTML

Eric, I find it hard to believe you are for real, but I see who your teacher is and I am extremely worried. So, only Eric and only Ian can understand the Scriptures on here, eh? Is that right? And unless I apply an 'methodology' to my interpretation  it stands for nothing, is that right? Well, sorry to inform you of this, Eric, but it is you who is completely wrong.

Here is a brief exposition of the Scriptures I suggested Ian pay attention to, since you are unable to see clearly because you are so obviously blinded by Ian's un-godly light.

1) The Bible teaches that knowledge 'puffs up' when it overrides commonsense. This is quite simple and plain to observe from the text. Ian is as big a puff as you are likely to find in someone who calls himself a Christian.

2) Jesus taught that those who prevent, in whatever way, 'little children', i.e. young believers, from coming to know Jesus are in an extremely unenviable position, to say the least. Ian's manner on here is verbally abusive. He bullies and demeans ex-members or those who don't 'understand' Scripture. It is possible that some people have actually ended up further away from God as they were already having been exposed to one of these cults after coming on here and being insulted by Ian. That speaks for itself, no?

3) Jesus' ministry was to 'heal the broken hearted', to preach to the poor, etc, etc. Perhaps Ian should find himself a 'ministry' more in accord with these functions than his current one of mocking and humiliating ex-cult members - and many others.

4) For out of the mouth, the heart speaks. Speaks for itself again, no? How will a 'methodology' help enlighten here? I think it is quite plain that Ian has a lot of work to do, somewhere.

Now take your stupid 'prooftexting' and your stupid 'methodologies' and stick them where the sun don't shine.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:16/02/2011 12:25 AMCopy HTML

PLEASE WATCH THE YOU TUBE

FIRE WATER
 
or not I don't have to drink that crap
our government likes living too much to harm so many people at the same time.
Sure they steal our money and send our kids to die in wars for foreign countries and
they love to control us in though and actions but they have stopped at adding poison to our water supply.

good luck Geelong in getting the fluoride out of your water supply

OHCANADMOVIE.COM
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:16/02/2011 12:33 AMCopy HTML

Biblianut, I do wish far fewer people would misinterpret Jesus' teaching about Judgement. Jesus calls us to Judge and Discern! In the passage you quoted, judgement is more to do with bias, or unfounded prejudice against someone's beliefs, etc. It does NOT mean that you do not discern what is and is not of God.

Let me explain:

'The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied,

'When evening comes, you say, ''it will be fair weather, for the sky is red'', and in the morning, ''Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.'' 

You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah'.

Biblianut - some advice. Discover for yourself the difference between unfounded judgemental bias and judgement as discerning between truth and lies, because it is a very serious error when Christian people teach and believe that we are not to judge per se. That is not true. We must judge, otherwise we become passive wimps, unable to know truth from lies and that is not God's calling for anyone.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:16/02/2011 12:37 AMCopy HTML

The Scripture I quoted from in the above post was Matthew 16.

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:16/02/2011 2:34 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Eric, I find it hard to believe you are for real, but I see who your teacher is and I am extremely worried. So, only Eric and only Ian can understand the Scriptures on here, eh? Is that right? And unless I apply an 'methodology' to my interpretation  it stands for nothing, is that right? Well, sorry to inform you of this, Eric, but it is you who is completely wrong.

Here is a brief exposition of the Scriptures I suggested Ian pay attention to, since you are unable to see clearly because you are so obviously blinded by Ian's un-godly light.

1) The Bible teaches that knowledge 'puffs up' when it overrides commonsense. This is quite simple and plain to observe from the text. Ian is as big a puff as you are likely to find in someone who calls himself a Christian.

2) Jesus taught that those who prevent, in whatever way, 'little children', i.e. young believers, from coming to know Jesus are in an extremely unenviable position, to say the least. Ian's manner on here is verbally abusive. He bullies and demeans ex-members or those who don't 'understand' Scripture. It is possible that some people have actually ended up further away from God as they were already having been exposed to one of these cults after coming on here and being insulted by Ian. That speaks for itself, no?

3) Jesus' ministry was to 'heal the broken hearted', to preach to the poor, etc, etc. Perhaps Ian should find himself a 'ministry' more in accord with these functions than his current one of mocking and humiliating ex-cult members - and many others.

4) For out of the mouth, the heart speaks. Speaks for itself again, no? How will a 'methodology' help enlighten here? I think it is quite plain that Ian has a lot of work to do, somewhere.

Now take your stupid 'prooftexting' and your stupid 'methodologies' and stick them where the sun don't shine.

Your Biblical ignorance is obvious and for your information my teacher IS NOT Ian. My teacher is not singular but plural and who happen to be University professors who hold Masters and Doctorate degrees. I myself am also a baccalaureate and working on my own Masters Degree in theology..

However I find Ian's discourses very enlightening and he is well gifted in bringing and presenting the real truth that is contained  within Holy Writ and is very guarded against the uniformed ignorance that you choose to wallow in. Unfortunately misinformed untrained persons such as yourself are too elevated in your own self pride and are thus are unable to discern truth or receive any instruction. The end result is that ignorant folk like you cause far more harm and hurt.

And finally, how about you growing up.


Eric

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:16/02/2011 6:25 AMCopy HTML

Guest 44#,

You great 'Git,' I was pointing out how your proof-texting was showing  how obviously ignorant you are of scripture. Now you are accusing Eric of the same. 
That spells hypocrite.

PS, you haven't even got the "intestinal fortitude" to put a name to your posts, I wonder why?
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:17/02/2011 1:30 AMCopy HTML

Ian - what planet are you on, exactly? How deluded are you, exactly? Did you also think that the others were 'wooing' you? How big is your ego, exactly?

So now you are attempting to use the technique of accusing me of being 'fixated' with you and trying to 'woo' you in order that I will feel embarrassed and back down.

You are so completely devoid of truth it is absolutely hilarious!

Why on God's earth would I attempt to 'woo' someone like you? Do you actually believe this?

Do you think that all women have some kind of desire to 'woo' you, Ian?

How utterly pathetic. Unlike what you so obviously believe, I have no secret desire to 'woo' you. Everything I say is the truth. So I'll repeat, you are a sociopath, a megalomaniac and completely devoid of normal human emotion - that's just for starters.

And how you have treated me on here is absolutely disgusting. And you actually believe that I have some kind of fancy for you?

You stupid man!

I am reacting to how you have treated me on here and I will not go away until you realise the damage you've done, not just to me but to many others out there.

You need to pay attention to the truth for a change, Ian, and stop believing your own version of events and lies.

And it really is sooooo difficult for you to believe that there could possibly be someone else out there, who has never even met any Lukes, Traceys or Galiens, but who still interprets your abusive behaviour, manners and tone to ex-members in the same way.

You are an utter disgrace.

And the things you said to me in your last post were completely off the wall, such as:

'You deserve what you got'

I'm an 'over-opinionated outsider'

'unhinged'

and AGAIN making light and mocking the horrendous experiences I have suffered because of an perverse group calling themselves CAI/RCI. How DARE YOU?

And whose side are you actually on? It appears to me that what you actually do is to reinforce the abusive behaviour that people have experienced in CAI/RCI and you do a very nice job.

You should be removed from this forum at once - this is blatant abuse.

Thing is Ian, I am a very strong person and do not fear you. I am not intimidated by you.

The sad thing is, others have been, and it's them I'm sorry for.

If I can show even one more person the true side of your character, and it prevents that person from choosing to interact with you because of the possibility that you will insult, mock and humilate them, then great.
 
You need a wake up call.




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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:17/02/2011 1:36 AMCopy HTML

Biblianut - a 'Git' is what you call an old man, and is probably best aimed at someone other than myself.

And, really, how can you dare to tell me that I don't understand and know Scripture?

On what basis do you presume this?

How can you make such a judgemental comment to someone whom you do not even know?

Do you not see how irrational you are?

But you take your lead, and abusive tone, from Ian. Eric included. Gofers.

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Re:Minister of the Word but not of the Church

Date Posted:17/02/2011 2:16 AMCopy HTML

AN&S,

Given your latest long-winded rant, you clearly either don't or can't comprehend what you read (such as the obvious application of the rhetorical feature known as irony). Time to hop down off that very high perch of yours, before you either fall off or are knocked off.

You really are remarkably self-absorbed, aren't you?

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
RCI prophesies
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