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Unkoolman
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Date Posted:25/08/2006 8:44 PMCopy HTML

As long as the following rules are kept then I am sure we'll all survive long and propsperous times on this forum.  A lot of us have been guilty of breaking these from time to time.  Let's try not to do that again shall we?

Here are the rules for this forum:

 

1.    Anyone one can read and post, but please adhere to the following rules. For the time being, posts will be delayed until approved, due to serial rule breakers.

 

2.    Approval of posts is not currently required, but the moderator reserves the right to move, censor, delete and edit posts (with written notices).

 

3.    Keep all threads in the relevant rooms or they will be moved.

 

4.    Don't make any poster's identity known including your own for any reason or speculate publicly (Divulge your identity at your own risk).

 

5.    No evangelism or proselytizing (preaching).

 

6.    Absolutely no names or identifying information when revealing personal information about individuals.

 

7.    No personal attacks against other posters. Keep it civil.

 

8.    If you ignore the warnings I give as moderator then you will be banned.

 

9.    Christians please note that non-Christians frequent the board and are just as welcome here as you...and vice versa.  This is an ex-Revivalist board and not a 'Christian' or 'ex-Christian' board.  Respect where others are at.

 

10.  Use the STUFF category for ramblings, personal differences and carry on.  Keep it out of the main rooms.

 

11.  Do not use multiple aliases.  Choose one and stick with it.  Some have used multiple aliases to reply to their own posts and support their point of view, etc.

 

12.  Anyone intentionally posting false or misleading material or masquerading as other posters will be banned.

Unkoolmail

"As man is, so is his God; And thus is God, oft strangely odd" - Goethe

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds." - Bob Marley
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #51
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 2:26 PMCopy HTML

Reply to: Avenger dude

     ahh, so the afterlife is the same as this life...!

No... there'll be golden roads to keep polished and pearly gates to clean, but we'll have magic powers to do all that, so that's cool. And the others will be given special bodies that can take pain but not need feeding.

     so these are our choices, are they...? hmmm... which one should i choose?and choosing the lesser of two evils is called a choice in the afterlife too?

Well, at least we'll have our memories of better times to remember, unless they get wiped.. but what would be the good of that.. there'd be nothing to feel sorry and tormented over. But what the fuck would punishment be good for if nothing was to be learnt from it. Can the Wazza/RevivalBlood types not see that logic... sigh...

     i just wish we could choose to die!!! you know, become worm food... gee, it was so much simpler before we started fearing death! now it doesn't even exist! we still have eternity left!!! do we have to be conscious to experience hell? can we equate consciousness to life in any way? if so, does this mean i can just do nothing and still have eternal life? maybe a painful one, but at least we have experience.

Yep, no one dies... eveyone gets eternal life.. it just happens to be better for some than others. For most Christians in their point of view, even good ol' Steve Irwin will be tormented for years for wasting so much time looking after the environment rather than reading the word and preaching the good news.

     i wonder if those going to the pearly gates will be able to cope with the change.

They don't like change do they. It'll be so good for them up there.. sneering away at the ones who should've listened to them all along. Yeah, like we were gonna go with Ned Flanders.. even Homer looks smart next to him.

 

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 4:04 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[biggirl]%*'`@
Hi Guys,
I'm really enjoying this thread, and I'm sure theres alot of people who are reading it. I spent about 20 years in RF/Rci, and never felt any real joy or peace about Jesus. I always believed in a God who created the earth - obvious to me, and when I first believed in Jesus it was an amazing thing. However , when I was taught about hell, and the tongues doctrine, I felt the whole burden of hell, and all the human race who would end up there.
So, to examine the scriptures, and open my mind to concepts such as universalism, and lack of hell, suddenly the whole point of Jesus coming and dying once for all makes sense. I actually 'get it' now. Concepts like the 'good news', and 'free gift' now make sense. Jesus died for us, we don't have to be punished for eternity, otherwise his death is in vain. God will destroy the sin, not the sinner.
Every denomination will be able to prove their point of view from the Bible. I now believe it is an imperfect book. I used to think each word had a numerical value, and the whole thing was infallible (like my RF Pastor !!!!) Tongues doctrine led to an insular life, a selfish self-saved doctrine. If you know christians by their fruits, they are definately not christians.
I will now choose to follow Jesus' example for positive reasons, not out of blackmail!


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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 6:47 PMCopy HTML

Hi Guys, I'm really enjoying this thread, and I'm sure theres alot of people who are reading it.

Hi Biggirl , thanks for posting. It's nice to know there actually others out there peeking in once in a while. Good to see some people brave enough to put their beliefs out there to face a little scrutiny... although I don't blame some for keeping 'mum' on the subject. The players can be a bit harsh. 

I spent about 20 years in RF/Rci, and never felt any real joy or peace about Jesus. I always believed in a God who created the earth - obvious to me, and when I first believed in Jesus it was an amazing thing. However , when I was taught about hell, and the tongues doctrine, I felt the whole burden of hell, and all the human race who would end up there.

Although I spend some energy entertaining the idea of evolution and etc. I too can't and probably won't ever write off the idea of an intelligent creator, ie God. I feel much better off for keeping an open mind on both camps though. Getting a perspective from different angles is simply looking at the same thing but in different ways. I think far too many people get lazy and simply stop thinking and settle into wherever they're at.

So, to examine the scriptures, and open my mind to concepts such as universalism, and lack of hell, suddenly the whole point of Jesus coming and dying once for all makes sense. I actually 'get it' now. Concepts like the 'good news', and 'free gift' now make sense.

Yes, I think the concept of Jesus is much more sovreign under that light.

Jesus died for us, we don't have to be punished for eternity, otherwise his death is in vain. God will destroy the sin, not the sinner.

That concept confuses me no end, but...  we'd be certainly limiting the temporal death of Jesus if we believed that his sacrifice was only good enough to save a sliver of humanity. Hmm, we'll start a new thread topic if anyone wants to run with this one!

Every denomination will be able to prove their point of view from the Bible. I now believe it is an imperfect book. I used to think each word had a numerical value, and the whole thing was infallible (like my RF Pastor !!!!)

They only have to twist and turn a few words to do that hey? I'm almost ashamed to admit I still hold a candle for bible numerics. Putting the gemetria (numerical word value) aside, I have to say that a symbolic number system is evident to me... I'm sure the bible text went through an autistic translator at some stage because I've read some stuff lately on autism that blows my mind. There's a guy recently who has a shade of colour memorised for every number up to approximately 10 000! If you ask him to add any numbers together he will know exactly what hue would be mixed from the combination... wow!

Tongues doctrine led to an insular life, a selfish self-saved doctrine. If you know christians by their fruits, they are definately not christians.

The tongues doctrine is certainly their folly and without doubt leads to a very spiritually selfish mindset.. too right! But, I'm sure there are a lot of genuine people in their ranks that show love and nice fruity traits. Many of them deserve the right to take ownership of the Christian title. Heck, I can take on the christian lable if I want to. I know what you're saying though... an ability to gargle without water does not a christian make.

I will now choose to follow Jesus' example for positive reasons, not out of blackmail!

I am not afraid of any god in the universe who would send me or any other man or woman to hell. If there were such a being, he would not be a god; he would be a devil. -- Clarence Darrow

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 8:52 PMCopy HTML

I agree.  It is WAY easier to believe in a God that is graceful and compassionate enough to deal with us compassionately and gracefully.  The hardliners will say that is because we are wanting to sin and all that other hardliner stuff.  But if God really is good and all powerful, then Hell sounds like a really nasty thing for him to invent. 

"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.  His mercy never comes to an end."  That does not sound at all like a God who would invent and send people to Hell.  Hang on, let me rewrite it...  "The punishment of the Lord never ceases.  His justice is never satisfied."  Now that sounds more like the God I knew in church.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 11:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revivals Blood

Ok Wazza, I appreciate that you're over the Aimoo thing... the ex-cult aspect of it I assume, but surely you're not over discussing the word of God you hold so dear? I also appreciate that my mini-essay on hell was a tad long for some... therefore, I'll break it down for you, seeing as though it can be so hard for many to scroll back and read more than 4 paragraphs at a time.. even with bullet points (sound arrogant? forgive me... you're scripturally honor bound to do so.. and you've done incredible well so far - pmsl). 

If you're going to state that the bible endorses eternal torture then you should be able to back that up. The implications of such a huge eternal existence that derides God's very character deserves such scrutiny. I played devil's advocate to Ian's challenge and made the mistake of affirming a false doctrine thereby giving you fuel for your own fire. These are the two scriptures used by the 'hellfire' club to prove this huge lie. I implore you to read it. I'm actually asking you to look up the scriptures and read them for yourself. I'll put them in bold here to make it easy for you. I can give further information on the context of the first parable if you wish.

The parable of the rich man. Whether the story is literal or parable, the rich man's time in Hades would only be a temporary detention and not an endless one because "death and Hadees will deliver up their occupants". Rev. 20: 13. and Hadees is gonna be destroyed. I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20: 14. Therefore Hades is of temporary duration. The Rich Man was not in a place of endless torment. (more context for this figurative parable is available and easily understandible)

The worm and the fire - Isaiah 66: 24: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." - Again, very figurative and not a scripture to hang the atrocity of eternal hell fire on, especially since it is from the Old Testament where the concept of eternal reward or punishment is NON-existant.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:06/09/2006 1:36 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi



"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercy never comes to an end." Now that sounds more like the God I knew in church.




If you really "knew" Him in the first place, you wouldn't fumbling around like you are now. There is a person who loves you very much - so much that He loves you more than your own wife loves you and He loves you more than you love your own son. In fact you are more precious to Him than your own little boy is to you. What is really needful is for you to enter into that deep place of intimacy with Him before the tme comes when you find that the time of mercy that is available to you has passed and your only choice remaining is a time of judgement..

"...and the sheep hear his voice, and when he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. When he puts forth all of his own, he goes before them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee because they do not know the voice of strangers." John 10: 3-5

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:06/09/2006 2:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous


If you really "knew" Him in the first place, you wouldn't fumbling around like you are now.

Ah yes, the old, "you never really knew him" argument.  What a cop out!  Why can't you just accept that I WAS a Christian and am not one anymore?  Because to do so would threaten your own security as a Christian.  Shit, if people can be very sincere and walk away, then you could too I guess.

There is a person who loves you very much - so much that He loves you more than your own wife loves you and He loves you more than you love your own son. In fact you are more precious to Him than your own little boy is to you.

...and his name is Allah, no Jesus, no Buddha, d'oh!  I have had Muslims say that to me about their faith.  If I come to know Allah then it will all 'make sense' etc.

What is really needful is for you to enter into that deep place of intimacy with Him before the tme comes when you find that the time of mercy that is available to you has passed and your only choice remaining is a time of judgement..

Buzz....WRONG!  Look, I appreciate that you truly believe this shit.  We're all headed to someone's Hell.  But anyway, keep it to yourself ok?  You're not allowed to evangelise on this board.  So, tracts away and back to the discussion at hand.

"...and the sheep hear his voice, and when he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. When he puts forth all of his own, he goes before them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee because they do not know the voice of strangers." John 10: 3-5

You were in the RCs right?  And now you recognise them as being decievers?  And TRUE sheep won't follow a stranger.  But you did...Ooops, looks like you will be with me in the hothouse.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:06/09/2006 7:06 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

You said...

"the tme comes when you find that the time of mercy that is available to you has passed"

The Bible says...

"his mercy never comes to an end. They are new every morning." Lamentations 3:22

Confusing isn't it! Come on, does the Lord's mercy end or not? The bible says it never will. You should try and get your views to match up with scripture 'cause you're just making stuff up and that's just not playing by the bible rules is it? I'm gonna have to go with the bible on this one... sorry anonymous, but your doctrine doesn't hold up.

Yes, he loves you so so so so much.. more than one could love a son. Heh, but you say there's a time coming soon when he'll judge his children (and what? cast them into death?). Heck, I know many mortal parents who have real unconditional love for their children, so much that they'd be merciful even if rejected by them. Your God should be so loving. 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:07/09/2006 4:30 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@
All,

Before anyone thinks to label me as such let me affirm that I'm not a 'universalist' (i.e. all people will make it in the end), neither do I subscribe to the currently popular view here, that 'hell' equals simple spiritual 'destruction' (at least, not as per the 'annihilationist' position). I'm currently preparing a post that will present the various Christian positions on the subject commencing with the early Church Fathers, then moving through the Middle Ages and Reformation periods, and culminating with the views in vogue during late 20th century. What I hope my post will demonstrate, is that there is more than one position that can rightly lay claim to being the 'orthodox' theological view. To be perfectly frank the doctrine of 'hell' rests in that category of theological musings known as adiaphora--that is, no one position is mandatory at the exclusion of all others, and so the subject is open to speculation in line with one's conscience. In other words, one is not saved or damned based on one's theology of 'hell', fundamentalist ragings aside

From my own vantage point as a, bye-and-large, semi-interested spectator; I suppose I've found a couple of things amusing as this thread has unfolded. First is that each of the small number of people who've seen fit to 'pooh-pooh' the reality of 'hell' so far, has sought to do so from a philosophical rather than from a biblical basis. Second, at least one poster here has taken the time and gone to the trouble to actually analyse some of the the primary material; consequently, he no longer seems to be as supportive of the "eternal agony in 'hell-fire' view" that he previously lambasted with some relish. I now wonder whether anyone will prove willing to take the next logical step, and test that 'other' uncritical assumption: that every person ignorant of Jesus Christ is destined for 'hell'?

Cheerio,

Ian
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:07/09/2006 5:41 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Before anyone thinks to label me as such let me affirm that I'm not a 'universalist' (i.e. all people will make it in the end), neither do I subscribe to the currently popular view here, that 'hell' equals simple spiritual 'destruction' (at least, not as per the 'annihilationist' position).

I'm not one for labelling myself. I wouldn't be offended by being called a universalist, but I really haven't pursued the subject deeply enough yet to defend or overly promote the idea. I'll presently bat for their team at this point as it tickles my sense of reason more than others. I would hope that if I ever did make a stand and box myself in to a belief system based on my own opinion, that it could be respected somewhat by others. I was attacked enough by Revivalists for joining more mainstream churches.

I'm currently preparing a post that will present the various Christian positions on the subject commencing with the early Church Fathers, then moving through the Middle Ages and Reformation periods, and culminating with the views in vogue during late 20th century. What I hope my post will demonstrate, is that there is more than one position that can rightly lay claim to being the 'orthodox' theological view.

Sounds interesting Ian, I look forward to it. As long as it's not a 'cut&paste' blah like the one posted just before by the anonymous 'keep it real'. No offense, but I didn't read much of it. I love to read the opinions of others, but am completely bored by sections of Vines copied ad-nauseaum. Seeing this is a discussion, it just has no life of its own. I did notice that it described hell as a place of eternal punishment.. and as we've discussed, the bible doesn't back that up.

To be perfectly frank the doctrine of 'hell' rests in that category of theological musings known as adiaphora--that is, no one position is mandatory at the exclusion of all others, and so the subject is open to speculation in line with one's conscience. In other words, one is not saved or damned based on one's theology of 'hell', fundamentalist ragings aside

Theological musing is fun (adiaphora is great with bourbon)... It certainly tells me a lot about a person when I hear of their opinions of hell.. and it tells me a lot about their ideas on the mind of God. God is a very different person when judged from the differing perspectives of the people who believe in him.

From my own vantage point as a, bye-and-large, semi-interested spectator; I suppose I've found a couple of things amusing as this thread has unfolded. First is that each of the small number of people who've seen fit to 'pooh-pooh' the reality of 'hell' so far, has sought to do so from a philosophical rather than from a biblical basis.

And that's fair enough I suppose for those that don't believe the bible is God's inspired word. It would be silly to hang everything off the bible only if that were the case.

Second, at least one poster here has taken the time and gone to the trouble to actually analyse some of the the primary material; consequently, he no longer seems to be as supportive of the "eternal agony in 'hell-fire' view" that he previously lambasted with some relish.

I'm sure you found that amusing... a seeming flip-flop, but for the umpteenth time, and you can see this from the beginning of the thread, I never have believed in the eternal agony aspect of hell. Not since I was an alterboy in the Catholic church. I was lampooning it... but.. but.. but... I suppose I did believe that there were scriptures the fundamentalist meat-heads use to substantiate it the mythology and I hoped to challenge you to derail it for me. I got impatient and looked into it myself and actually pre-empted (I think) part of the rebuttle I imagined was coming from you. I did come to my own conclusions that there simply isn't enough bible-based evidence to confidently uphold the concept of eternal torment.

I now wonder whether anyone will prove willing to take the next logical step, and test that 'other' uncritical assumption: that every person ignorant of Jesus Christ is destined for 'hell'?

An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?" --Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek.

Now there's an intriguing teaser for another thread. Gawd... I can see why the anonymous poster thinks I need to enrich my life with other interests... hahaha...

Nice chattin', catch you later.

Moth

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 11:47 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Keep it real man.]%*'`@

.Reply to : MothandRust

All good gifts come from God. The worst thing about Hell is being separated from God. Someone won't meet all their friends in Hell because friendship is a gift from God and they would be removed from God. This to me is the worst part of hell.fficeffice" />

 

We forget how perfect and holy God is and how much he hates sin. If God is infinitely holy then any sin is an infinite offence. God loves justice so the punishment will also be infinite. God is also full of love so he found a way for his Son to take the punishment for our sins so that His justice and love for us could be fully realised.

 

Why does everyone assume that the pagans had a good idea first and then the Christian's copied it?? God was first to create the form and then the pagans (and Satan) copied it and corrupted it.

 

Matt. 11: 23 and Luke 10: 15: And thou, ffice:smarttags" />Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hell (The city was overthrown and desolated... not eternally tormented) [We say the city desolated in the physical but that doesn't mean that the spiritual did not take place also]

Acts 2: 27: Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."  (He died, but his soul was not left in the realms of death, is the meaning.) [That's right. Paul is talking about Jesus here, not just a human being]

Matt. 14: 18 - and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (He was saying that his church can't be destroyed) [Yes, through the power and forgiveness of Jesus, Hell has no power. This power is with the church, or more accuralty, with the individuals that make up the church]

I Cor. 15: 55: O death, where is thy sting[Again, the sting of death is taken away because Jesus defeated death and Hell on the Cross] then check Hos. 14: 14, where the destruction of Hadees is prophesied. It cannot be endless torment. (Ps. 30: 3; II Sam. 22: 5,6). - And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire [so you're assuming that the lake of fire stops burning??]

 

The parable of the rich man

Are we talking Hadees (sheol - the waiting place for the dead to be judged) or Hell, on of the eternal places to hang out after we have been judged?

 

The cretins of this planet suffer real death and moral death

You left one out. What about spiritual death? Real death: the body dies, Moral death: suffering because of our own stupidity, natural consequences, Spiritual death: Hell. You are right that there's a lot of hell on earth because so many people are already spiritually dead but that's peanuts to the real Hell.

 

So there ya go... it's not this fairytale future abyss that is going to be burning forever on writhing worms - hehe...

Again, you're right but you miss the point. Hell (like Heaven) is a spiritual realm so actual fire and physical worms as we know them probably won't exist there. The descriptions in the Bible are to give you an indication that Hell's gonna be bad, just like fire and maggots.

 

Still, if the fire doesn't go out and the worms don't die sounds like a long time suffering to me.

Mark 9:48 where

  " `their worm does not die,

    and the fire is not quenched.'

 

 

There is no mention of punishment after death... Yes there is! Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Paul, Peter and Moses never mentioned it. [Peter may not have mentioned it but he DID write about it J    2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;] [What about Jesus?? He mentioned it the most]

It was never employed by any Christian until Justin and Clement thus used it (A. D. 150) but not in an eternal context.  [I don't really care because I don't follow those people. Whether they got it right or wrong most Christians follow Jesus and he was the one who talked about it the most]

Not only death but Hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. [see above]

"The Christian Church has never held it exclusively till now. It remained quite an open question till the age of Justinian, 530, and significantly enough, as soon as 200 years before that, endless torment for the heathen became a popular theory, purgatory sprang up synchronously by the side of it, as a relief for the conscience and reason of the church." [Whether popular or not, the fact remains. In the same way that the earth sucks whether or not you believe in gravity]

'Gehenna,' means primarily, the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem in which after it had been polluted by Moloch worship, corpses were flung and fires were lit;

[Therefore it was a fitting *example* of what Hell might be like]

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 12:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

I'm currently preparing a post that will present the various Christian positions on the subject commencing with the early Church Fathers, then moving through the Middle Ages and Reformation periods, and culminating with the views in vogue during late 20th century. What I hope my post will demonstrate, is that there is more than one position that can rightly lay claim to being the 'orthodox' theological view.

I look forward to it.  Sounds a like a good read.

First is that each of the small number of people who've seen fit to 'pooh-pooh' the reality of 'hell' so far, has sought to do so from a philosophical rather than from a biblical basis.

Sure, but of course.  When one no longer accepts the Bible as authoritative, the Bible loses its authority. 

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 5:43 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Keep it real Wazza Blood. [by HolyandMothfull]


Common Misconceptions of Hell - (IMO) In Moth's Opinion

You say - The worst thing about Hell is being separated from God. Someone won't meet all their friends in Hell because friendship is a gift from God and they would be removed from God. This to me is the worst part of hell

The bible says - Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hiya Wazza. Will there be some separated from God's love or not? Not even death could do that! Sounds like Paul is covering all his bases so that no readers include a 'but' or an 'if' in there. You're stating to 'Keep it real man' yet we're trying to factualise hell... oh, the irony tickles me a little bit. Well, ok.. I'll canvass a few of your rebuttles and I'll number them, in case anyone wants to discuss in further detail.

We forget how perfect and holy God is and how much he hates sin. If God is infinitely holy then any sin is an infinite offence. God loves justice so the punishment will also be infinite.

1. That makes very little sense at all. Punishment or chastisement from a fair and just god, by definition, should at least fit the crime and there is no point if there is nothing to be learnt or gained from it by the individuals. Would you smack your kids forever and ever for an offence? You'd be a complete dick if you did, even if you were eternally holy. Hmmm?

God is also full of love so he found a way for his Son to take the punishment for our sins so that His justice and love for us could be fully realised.Why does everyone assume that the pagans had a good idea first and then the Christian's copied it?? God was first to create the form and then the pagans (and Satan) copied it and corrupted it.

2. He found a way for his son to take the punishment for us... and yet STILL many will end up in eternal punishment and death?.. sheesh... he should have come up with a better plan! Looks like he didn't find a way after all, and you call that fully realised justice? And.. (3). Umm, because they didn't get the idea from the Old Testament scriptures... you're gonna have to do a bit of unbiased study to get a grip on the history of mythology and who came up with the idea first (I'll cut and paste a list up soon on what the o.t. has to say about hell).

Matt. 11: 23 and Luke 10: 15: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hell (The city was overthrown and desolated... not eternally tormented) [We say the city desolated in the physical but that doesn't mean that the spiritual did not take place also]

4. So, you're going to make some assumptions.. tsk tsk... that's adding to the word my friend. let's stick to what the scripture says or else it's no fun at all. The context of my argument is that hell=death and it's all harmonising well, don'cha think? When playing Monopoly some people takes money on 'Free Parking' or don't buy property on the first round. Many people don't play the game as it's intended to be played according to the rules.

Acts 2: 27: Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."  (He died, but his soul was not left in the realms of death, is the meaning.) [That's right. Paul is talking about Jesus here, not just a human being]

5. Don't stray from the point.. the point I'm arguing is that hell isn't eternal torment. As for Jesus' deity at the time, it's a tricky thing to get a grasp on, but he was human just like us at this stage (that was the whole point - he was in our shoes) or he wouldn't have been able to be tortured and killed... for interests sake, check your scriptures, you'll see he wasn't able to perform a miracle or even simply forgive anyone since he allowed the centaurians to take him.

Matt. 14: 18 - and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (He was saying that his church can't be destroyed) [Yes, through the power and forgiveness of Jesus, Hell has no power. This power is with the church, or more accuralty, with the individuals that make up the church]

6. Thank you for at least admitting some agreement. Remember the context... context is everything.. context, context, context... and the argument I was showing is that hell is simply death and destruction, and it holds true here.

I Cor. 15: 55: O death, where is thy sting[Again, the sting of death is taken away because Jesus defeated death and Hell on the Cross] then check Hos. 14: 14, where the destruction of Hadees is prophesied. It cannot be endless torment. (Ps. 30: 3; II Sam. 22: 5,6). - And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire [so you're assuming that the lake of fire stops burning??]

7. Are you assuming it doesn't? Remember Hadees is to be destroyed, so the metaphor shows us that the figurative fire consumes... What happens when a fire runs out of fuel.. even a figurative one? Let's think about that word consume... consume. What does that word mean to you? It doesn't say death and hell will be eternally tormented when thrown into the fire. I'll say it again now so I don't have to do another dreary reply.. "consumes"

 The parable of the rich man Are we talking Hadees (sheol - the waiting place for the dead to be judged) or Hell, on of the eternal places to hang out after we have been judged? The cretins of this planet suffer real death and moral death.You left one out. What about spiritual death? Real death: the body dies, Moral death: suffering because of our own stupidity, natural consequences, Spiritual death: Hell. You are right that there's a lot of hell on earth because so many people are already spiritually dead but that's peanuts to the real Hell.

"Real hell" - hey man... keep it real. Gee, the formatting you used in MS Word made a real mess of it hey? (8.) Are you talking about the second death? So... lemme get this right. Of one death (the body) you say ceasement, but of the other death (spirit) you say non-ceasement... come on... be consistant eh? Not overly inconsistant like your Aimoo username (heh, I can talk) You really WANT this whole eternal torment thing to be true, hey? 

9. I'll do a more detailed piece on the rich man parable later to give more context to it if you like...  why not... I live to serve.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 6:30 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Keep it real PopeWazzaBlood. [from RustyandSinful]

Worms, Fear and Angels

Mark 9:48 where `their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Worms:

Jesus was describing a desolation and used the word Gehenna.. obviously he was relating it to the death and destruction they could see plainly in the valley, where the worm and fire consumed bodies. Once again.. DEATH. Jesus was referencing Isaiah 66 (the overthrow of Jerusalem which was soon to come?). "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa. 66: 23, 24.

Such was the use of language at the time the bible was written. Jonah 2:6 says that he was in the deep of the water forever.. but we know that it wasn't actually forever. Geddit? The writers allowed themselves such poetic licences... Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever."  1 Samuel 1:22.  Yet in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." And although not a biblical text, Josephus says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable," even though the temple was destroyed at the time of his writing.

Fear:

There is no mention of punishment after death... Yes there is! Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Ohhh - you should compare that scripture with the one in Matthew and take particular note of the word destroy. Lucky Matthew clarified some things Luke missed eh?

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The most powerful, definitive words in human language are used to describe the destruction in hell, but people still insist that the writers do not really mean what their words express.  "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death"--do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books?

Plus you're assuming punishment here if you don't take the word 'destroy' into account... remember "assuming will make an ass out of u and me". You need to understand here that Jesus was exhorting his disciples to have complete faith in God. The most that men can do is to destroy the body, but God "hath power" to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. It is not said that God would do such a thing. He is able to do it, as it is said (Matt. 3: 9) he is "able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." He didn't raise up the stones and do that, but he is able to, just as he is able to destroy soul and body in Gehenna (hell), while men could only destroy the body there. Fear the might power of God who could if he chose, annihilate man while the worst that men could do would be to destroy the mere animal life. It is a forcible exhortation to trust in God, and has no reference to torment after death. Fear not those who can only torture you-man-but fear God who can annihilate (paraphrased).

Angels:

Paul, Peter and Moses never mentioned it. [Peter may not have mentioned it but he DID write about it J    2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;] [What about Jesus?? He mentioned it the most]

Eternal torment? So the angels were detained for a short time before being put to death in the fires of hell.. again you assume they are being tortured in this figurative account. Jesus did mention it but in the context of death.. not eternal torment.

Ok, if you're actually interested in an opinion outside of your own you'll have to read the next two paragraphs without skimming. I dare you. Warning! - If you subsribe fully in the angel mythology as a literal account, this might not add up for you.

Why did Peter quote it? He was a writer using the same literary devices anyone today would, quoting from the classics to enforce a proposition. Joshua, after a poetical quotation adorning his narrative, says: "Is not this written in the Book of Jasher? Josh. 10: 13 and Jeremiah 48: 45 says: "A fire shall come forth out of Heshbon," quoting from an ancient poet. Peter alludes to this ancient legend to illustrate the certainty of retribution without any intention of teaching the silly notions of angels falling from heaven.

(Now concentrate here) There is this alternative only: either the pagan doctrine is true and the heathen got ahead of inspiration by ascertaining the facts before the authors of the Bible learned it - for it was currently accepted centuries before Christ and is certainly not taught in the Old Testament- or Peter quotes it as Jesus refers to Mammon rhetorically to illustrate the great fact of retribution. If true, how can anyone account for the fact that it is never referred to in the Bible, before or after this once? Besides, these angels are not to be detained always in Tartarus, they are to be released. The language is, "delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." When their judgment comes, they emerge from duress. They only remain in Tartarus "unto judgment." Their imprisonment is not endless so that the language gives no proof of endless punishment even if it be a literal description.

Genenna:

'Gehenna,' means primarily, the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem in which after it had been polluted by Moloch worship, corpses were flung and fires were lit; [Therefore it was a fitting *example* of what Hell might be like]

Yes! WELL DONE! Where the corpses were destroyed and the fires would have went out when the fuel turned to ash. Nothing can be burnt twice.. have you noticed that? They turned to ashes and were consumed by the flame, but not tortured for eternity. What better example of death could Jesus use than the graphic, gory and grisly scene they all knew too well. Btw, do worms actually live forever? 

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 6:49 PMCopy HTML

Weeeee.... I take it back... cut and pasting is fun!

THE BIBLE HELL:

The words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna,
shown to denote a state of temporal duration.
http://tinyurl.com/qu6bz

Hab. 2: 5: "Yea, also because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as Hell and is as death, and cannot be satisfied."

We believe we have recorded every passage in which the word Sheol-Hadees occurs. Suppose the original word stood, and we read Sheol or Hadees in all the passages instead of Hell, would any unbiassed reader regard the word as conveying the idea of a place or state of endless torment after death, such as the English word Hell is so generally supposed to denote? Such a doctrine was never held by the ancient Jews, until after the Babylonish captivity, during which they acquired it of the heathen. All scholars agree that Moses never taught it, and that it is not contained in the Old Testament.

Thus not one of the sixty-four passages containing the only word rendered Hell in the entire Old Testament, teaches any such thought as is commonly supposed to be contained in the English word Hell. It should have stood the proper name of the realm of death, Sheol.

  1. Men in the Bible are said to be in hell, Sheol-Hadees, and in "The lowest hell," while on earth. Deut. 32: 22; Jon. 2: 2; Rev. 6: 8.
  2. Men have been in Hell, Sheol-Hadees, and yet have escaped from it. Ps. 18: 5, 6; II Sam. ; Jon 2: 2; Ps. 116: 3; 86: 12-13. Ps. 30: 3; Rev. 20: 13.
  3. God delivers men from Hell, Sheol-Hadees. I Sam. 2: 6.
  4. All men are to go there. No one can escape the Bible Hell, Sheol-Hadees. Ps. 89: 48.
  5. There can be no evil there for there is no kind of work there. Eccl. 9: 10.
  6. Christ's soul was said to be in Hell, Sheol-Hadees. Acts 2: 27-28.
  7. No one in the Bible ever speaks of Hell, Sheol-Hadees as a place of punishment after death.
  8. It is a way of escape from punishment. Amos 9: 2.
  9. The inhabitants of Hell, Sheol-Hadees are eaten of worms, vanish and are consumed away. Job 7: 9, 21; Ps. 49: 14.
  10. Hell, Sheol-Hadees is a place of rest. Job 17: 16.
  11. It is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. 6: 5; Is. 38: 18; Eccl. 9: 10.
  12. All men will be delivered from this Hell. Hos. 13: 14.
  13. Hell, Sheol-Hadees, will be destroyed. Hos. 13: 14; I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20: 14.

At the time these declarations were made, and universally accepted by the Hebrews, the surrounding nations all held entirely different doctrines. Egypt, Greece, Rome, taught that after death there is a fate in store for the wicked that exactly resembles that taught by so-called orthodox Christians. But the entire Old testament is utterly silent on the subject, teaching nothing of the sort as the sixty-four passages we have quoted show and as the critics of all churches admit. And yet "Moses was learned in all the wisdom in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7: 22) who believed in a world of torment after death. If Moses knew all about this Egyptian doctrine, and did not teach it to his followers, what is the unavoidable inference?

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:08/09/2006 10:31 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[What the ...?]%*'`@

Hi everyone,, I have always thought that In order for no more pain to exist,
there can be no eternal hell existing either. 
We should thank God every day that His plan will finally
bring an end to suffering.  I think Satan will not even be here to cause
pain, and God promises that His new kingdom will not even
contain a shadow of a pain.

"And God shall
wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more
death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any
more pain:  for the former things are passed away."  Revelation
21:4.

can't see where an eternal  hell fits into this

anon


 


 

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:09/09/2006 2:34 AMCopy HTML

maybe some people agree with the jesuits?

"Rejecting arguments that science and technology have made the concept of hell obsolete, the July 16 issue of an authoritative Jesuit journal said that hell exists and is eternal, but it is man himself who chooses to be damned by rejecting God."

"It is misleading, even if the popular imagination represents hell that way, to think that God, by means of demons, inflicts fearful torments on the damned like that of fire," the editorial said.

"hell exists, but not as a place"
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:09/09/2006 3:24 AMCopy HTML

does anyone know much about 'the kingdom of god on earth'?

i remember interpreting the message with this as the aim, yet i cannot readily find scriptures that are so clear with that.

here is just one sample article to do with this topic, to give you an idea:

http://www.discipleship.net/kog1.htm

i'm thinking along the lines of:

there are polarised forces in the world (the spiritual battle on high [high up in the people-hierarchy]) which can either create 'heaven on earth' or 'hell on earth'.

many people already experience this hell due to circumstances beyond their control, and the rulers of the earth are in a kind of heaven already.

but the writings and ramblings come from people with enough luxury to contemplate existence and strive for heaven (improvement, even unto perfection) and fear (flea from and/or prevent) hell (hellish conditions, the worst occurences they have heard of or imagined).

at best, heaven is equality, or everyone being happy and hell is a wasteland on earth as a result of a nuclear holocaust or total chaos, for example.

so heaven and hell can be sort of prophesies which everybody is capable of imagining. future conditions: paradise or danger?

i think most humans want safety, yet are troubled by the many scary signs around the world.

but i'm seeing some good signs too (yes, i am one of those lucky people not suffering badly right now): the 'blurring of borders' (and/or globalisation) might result in thinking that is not so 'black and white'(?), well at least for those not commited to one mode of thought til death do them part.

anyway, hows about it? hell is a future world that is the opposite of ideal?

paradoxically, certain mentalities (claiming to be good) could be contributing to hell on earth more than heaven on earth and it might be because they are focusing too much on 'other-worldly' things.

the word 'impractical' comes to mind.

i always think about how jesus hung out with pimps, hoes and thieves.

but then again, i refuse to use the bible as a primary source, so i rely on my memory and experiences in everyday life.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:11/09/2006 5:21 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[keep it real man.]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

The words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna,
shown to denote a state of temporal duration.

  1. Isaiah 33:14 (Whole Chapter)
    The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

  2. Matthew 18:8 (Whole Chapter)
    Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

  3. Matthew 25:41 (Whole Chapter)
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

 

Look man, I'm not trying to win and to prove you wrong, I have really enjoyed looking into your veiw point (beleive it or not!lol) But nothing you have said really sits right. ( with me anyway hehe ) The word everlasting in the bible means just that, EVERLASTING.

There are those who try and tell us that the Greek word "aionios" translated in the above verse's as "everlasting" means only an indefinite periode of time, and does not mean "endless" or "eternal." This word occurs about 70 times in the new Testament, and should mean the same in each verse its used. The word which is used to decribe the punishment of the wicked is also applied to the "everlasting" life  which believers posses(matt19v16), to the salvation and redemption in which they rejoice(heb9v12), to the glory to which they look forward(2nd Cor5v1), and to the inheritance which they expect to enjoy(Heb9v15),  So if your to maintain that the word "everlasting" does not mean everlasting when applied to the punishment of the wicked, what security have that it means everlasting when appled to the life, blessedness, and glory of the redeemed? What right has anyone to single out seven verse's from the seventy in which the greek word "aionios" is used, and say that in those seven it does not mean everlasting, but in all the rest it does? None Whatever!

 

 

"IF anything less than eternal punishment be due to sin, what need was there of an infinite sacrifice to give deliverance from the punishment?

Did Jesus shed his precious blood to deliver us from the consequences of our guilt, if those consequences be only temporary?

Grant us the truth of an infinite sacrifice, and we argue from that the truth of eternal punishhment." C.H.M

 

 

 

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:11/09/2006 5:57 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : keep it real man. [Thanks for keeping the game goin' Revival BashedBlood]

Look man, I'm not trying to win and to prove you wrong, I have really enjoyed looking into your veiw point (beleive it or not!lol) But nothing you have said really sits right.

Nothing I have said sits right? Not one thing? Well you have been trying to prove me wrong... but that's ok. All part of a healthy debate. It'd be boring if we all took the same side, and hardly a fully fleshed out discussion. Glad to see you've been opening your mind up to new ideas though, even if it goes against everything you believe. If only more Revivalists allowed themselves the same opportunities to look outside of their paradigms.

I'd have hoped that at least one thing might have seemed reasonable to you, but it's of little consequence really. The stakes are high for you though I think, and such unthinkable atrocities at the hand of God on disbelievers, due to his inaction/creation should warrant incredible urgency. If I believed such a thing I'd be running down every street screaming. But a God that created mankind only to allow much of it to endure eternal torment certainly doesn't sit right with me - no wonder the mainstream Christian is ridiculed. The concept I have of God puts him in much more harmony with the bible (i.m.o) and shows him to be quite gracious and forgiving.


Everlasting - aionios (does it mean 'eternal'?)

The Greek word aionios, of which eternal is a translation, does not mean without end, but means age lasting or indefinite but limited duration. If the writers of the New Testament had wanted to communicate that suffering in hell would be without end, they could have used the Greek word aidios (which means perpetual), but they didn't. Give 'em some credit eh?

What right has anyone to single out seven verse's from the seventy in which the greek word "aionios" is used, and say that in those seven it does not mean everlasting, but in all the rest it does? None Whatever!

There's every right if you're trying to unwind this ol' contradiction. This sounds a lot like trying to show someone that tongues isn't a necessity for salvation (cheap punch, I know). They grab onto a few verses and completely disregard countless others. I'll ask you a question from my previous text: Was Job in the waters forever? Nope...

I liked the simple point brought up before: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

There cannot be both! You can't have both! There's either no more crying or pain or there is... your interpretation has God with a split personality. Revelation 21 only makes sense if you take the blinkers off the eternal only 'aionios' everlasting interpretation. You'd have to cut that verse out otherwise, and let's not go chopping up the good book so hastily eh? Sigh... Believe some verses and ignore others. Your God is a bit nasty I think... and that whole 'infinite sacrifice balances out eternal punishment' codswollop... it's a moot point, eh strawman (lol)? Shouldn't the sacrifice be even more powerful than the wages of sin?... Who's more powerful... God or the sin of man? Wow, for an infinite God, you sure do limit him and his grace.

I'll see your cut&paste and raise it (wordy though they might be):

1. One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. (www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/barclay/barclay.htm)

2. There are other New Testament texts which people traditionally refer to and say these demonstrate "eternal punishment." A primary example is II Thessalonians 1:9. However, our English Bibles translate the Greek word "aion" or "aionios" as "eternal" or "everlasting" punishment in this text, but this Greek adjective also means: "age-enduring" or "pertaining to an age" or "long ages" and does not necessarily imply "endlessness" in all cases. (For an example of where this word is not translated as "eternal," see Romans 16:25 where it is usually translated as "long ages.") It seems in this case our presuppositions have driven our translations. Additionally, there are other, arguably better Greek words which imply "of endless duration" which are not being used here.  (http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Universalism.htm)

I will say again that Scripture does NOT support the existence of an eternal hell. Even if I do have to say again that Ian is right... and that I was wrong. Still looking forward to your hell study, Ian.. don't rush it though. Puh-lenty of time... heck, we've got until hell freezes over.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:11/09/2006 7:54 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : keep it real man [Anonymous]

Everlasting (Part 2) - is devouring the same thing as everlasting?


Reply to : keep it real man. [Anonymous]Reply to : MothandRustThe words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna,shown to denote a state of temporal duration.Isaiah 33:14(Whole Chapter)The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouringfire? who among us shall dwell witheverlastingburnings?Opps I thought I had all New Tverse's.

Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah speaks of "everlasting burnings" in his prophecy but, in the same breath, calls it a "devouring" fire. And he specifically says no one can dwell or live there. No eternal torment here... sorry!

And again we have the word that seems to defy the logic of ignorant modern day linguists - "devouring"... like "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death" -- I ask again, do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books? It contradicts the word everlasting, unless you realise the word pertains to an indefinite time rather than an infinite time.

You (wazzaReal) said, "The word everlasting in the bible means just that, EVERLASTING". But I would argure that this simplistic mistranslation contradicts just about everything that's been discussed so far... especially when we're comparing them to other words used in the same context, eg. devouring, destroying, consuming, burning up, death etc. Consider the following:

Can this word "aion" be consistently translated one way and make sense without bringing about contradictions in the Bible? The answer is yes! Uh-huh uh-huh... Can this word be consistently translated with words that indicate "eternity?" The answer is no! Nup... 'fraid not. Let's see how the Bible would read if we translated this word "aion" into eternity in some passages where it appears. We would get some of the following kinds of reading:

"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of eternity (aionios)." (2 Tim. 1:9) There can be no time before "eternity."
"According to the revelation of the mystery hidden for eternity (aionios) past." (Rom. 16:25) If it was hidden in eternity, it can never happen... geddit? Gottit? Good. next... 
"Who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil eternity (aion)." (Gal. 1:4)
"The harvest is the end of this eternity (aion)." (Matt. 13:39) What then, another eternity?
"Who tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming eternity (aion)." (Heb. 6:5) [There is only one eternity, not past and future ones.]

As one can see, when we translated this word consistently with eternity, the scriptures make no sense at all.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:11/09/2006 10:25 PMCopy HTML

You all have some very good points. 

But the thing is...  HELL DOESN'T EXIST.  It's a tool of fear used by the religious establishments of various religions and stages throughout history.

And if it does exist, lets hope it is the Muslim Hell so I can see the looks on all your faces when we go there.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:13/09/2006 7:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : kEEP IT REAL MOTHY [Anonymous]

Reply to : MothandRustThere cannot be both! You can't have both! There's either no more crying or pain or there is... your interpretation has God with a split personality. Revelation 21 only makes sense if you take the blinkers off theeternal only'aionios' everlasting interpretation. You'd have tocut that verse out otherwise, and let's not go chopping up the good book so hastily eh?Sigh... Believe some verses and ignore others. Your God is a bit nasty I think... and that whole 'infinite sacrificebalances outeternal punishment' codswollop... it's a moot point, eh strawman (lol)? Shouldn't the sacrifice be even more powerful than the wages of sin?... Who's more powerful... God orthe sin of man? Wow, for an infinite God, you sure do
Yes. No.
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41, 46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

Mark 9:43-48
... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:22-24
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

John 5:28-29
The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Psalm 1:4-6
The ungodly ... are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. ... The ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 34:16
The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psalm 37:1-2
Fret not thyself because of evildoers.... For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Psalm 37:20
The wicked shall perish.

Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living.

Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more.

Proverbs 24:20
The candle of the wicked shall be put out.

Obadaih 16
They shall be as though they had not been.

Romans 6:21
The end of those things is death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

2 Corinthians 2:15
In them that are saved, and in them that perish.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.

Philippians 3:18-19
The enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
Then sudden destruction cometh upon them.

James 1:15
Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

James 5:20
He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death.
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:13/09/2006 8:04 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : kEEP IT REAL MOTHY [Anonymous]Reply to : MothandRustThere cannot be both! You can't have both! There's either no more crying or pain or there is... your interpretation has God with a split personality. Revelation 21 only makes sense if you take the blinkers off theeternal only'aionios' everlasting interpretation. You'd have tocut that verse out otherwise, and let's not go chopping up the good book so hastily eh?Sigh... Believe some verses and ignore others. Your God is a bit nasty I think... and that whole 'infinite sacrificebalances outeternal punishment' codswollop... it's a moot point, eh strawman (lol)? Shouldn't the sacrifice be even more powerful than the wages of sin?... Who's more powerful... God orthe sin of man? Wow, for an infinite God, you sure do

What does the Bible say about Hell? Here are a few sample verses.

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Matthew 23:15

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 23:33

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Luke 16:23

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment... 2 Peter 2:4

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:13/09/2006 11:04 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revival Blood.

Man now your starting to sound like a morman! lolFrom my understanding of the New T, hell is something real, your interpretation of Rev 21 is only human logic, and nothing of the Holy Ghost. But I for give you brother. LOL!

Just because a particular religion is heretical to you doesn't mean you should discredit everything they believe. I've found various topics in Mormonish, Jw, 7DA, Catholicism, buddhism, to have some sound views on various issues.

Revelation 21 man... human logic??? nothing of the holy ghost???... for pete's sake man. Can you hear yourself? If there was any value in any bible promises at all then you would have to put at least some hope into the words of Rev 21. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4. (how do your super holy ghost powers interpret Rev 21:4?)

Dont fobb it off, that scripture has to stay in place... it's not playing by the rules to pretend it isn't there. Your'e writing Rev 21 off as invalid due to human logic but in the same breath your advocating eternal torment? Sheesh...

What does the Bible say about Hell? Here are a few sample verses.

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22

My hypothesis is that hell is simply death. We have already covered these scriptures in previous posts. Let's try and address the comments already posted.

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

Already discussed this scripture, you didn't reply to it. Better than thrown into hell where we see it as described as a consuming fire. The figurative fire may not go out.. but whatever gets thrown in is consumed. Do you know what consumes means? Do you really expect people to gouge out an eye? Don't you see this as figurative? How many church members are hacking off body parts? Stupid ones maybe. I have heard of it happening.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Note the word destroy (get a dictionary)

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Matthew 23:15 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 23:33

Hell = Death, not eternal torture. There are no scriptures to validify your archaic mythological beliefs of eternal pharisee... they are the beliefs of the Pharisee.

In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Luke 16:23

We covered this parable. But I said I'll post more details later. There are many aspects of this parable that don't allign up and that'll be made very obvious soon. Hell (as already discussed) will be thrown into the consuming fire anyway.. so not a permanent eternity.. according to the scriptures.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment... 2 Peter 2:4

Already discussed this scripture, you didn't reply. Eternal torment? So the angels were detained for a short time before being put to death in the fires of hell.. again you assume (remember the word assume?) they are being tortured in this figurative account. Jesus did mention it but in the context of death.. not eternal torment.

If we're gonna just quote scriptures at each other and not put any commentry into them, then I can play that game. You're not even prepared to attach your name to them. It's easy to be a follower and hope in an eternal hell for those that disagree with you. You've made little attempt at all to rebut my arguments with anything in the spirit of a critical debate. Just smugly standing by an old idea isn't doing it justice. Anyone can cut and paste scriptures and hope that someone will intepret them with the same hate-filled appreciation that you have of god. If you would like to continue trying to push your GRC/Fundamentalist views on hell then at least pay me the respect of discussing the issues I have brought up, (one at a time) start with the following concerning the word aionios:

"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of eternity (aionios)." (2 Tim. 1:9) There can be no time before "eternity."
"According to the revelation of the mystery hidden for eternity (aionios) past." (Rom. 16:25) If it was hidden in eternity, it can never happen... geddit? Gottit? Good. next... 
"Who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil eternity (aion)." (Gal. 1:4)
"The harvest is the end of this eternity (aion)." (Matt. 13:39) What then, another eternity?
"Who tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming eternity (aion)." (Heb. 6:5) [There is only one eternity, not past and future ones.]

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:15/09/2006 5:27 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4. (how do your super holy ghost powers interpret Rev 21:4?)

Holy Ghost powers, lol nice one. You crack up! 

Of course the bible does'nt deny the reality of pain and death, muder, suffering, but it does give us assurance that the day is coming, by the grace of God when for the believer these things will no longer exist.

Jude v 6,7

" and the angles which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in EVERLASTING ( AIDIOS! ) chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

7- Even as Sodom and Go-morrha and the citys about them in LIKE manner, giving themselves over to forication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an Examble suffering the vengeance of eternal fire "

So to me its very clear and plain to see Jude giving us an example of hell. And also using  Sodom and Go-morrha as an examble and symbolic of divine judgment executed by fire.  In this verse Jude was adressing a prblem with some false teachers in the church that where getting into very sinful acts. So Jude was saying that their fate of (Sodom and Go-morrha)   is a foretaste  of the fate of professing believers who do not persevere in rightousness.

"IF anything less than eternal punishment be due to sin, what need was there of an infinite sacrifice to give deliverance from the punishment?

Did Jesus shed his precious blood to deliver us from the consequences of our guilt, if those consequences be only temporary?

Grant us the truth of an infinite sacrifice, and we argue from that the truth of eternal punishhment." C.H.M

 

Such was the deepest love of God that a way was made to save us from the eternal punishment through Jesus. Look Moth  I dont like the idea of eternal suffering anymore than you do.

My only hope is what Jesus did for me. And that i will embrace with all my heart.

Kind regards Moth

RB

 

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:15/09/2006 9:50 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revivals Blood

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4. (how do your super holy ghost powers interpret Rev 21:4?)

Holy Ghost powers, lol nice one. You crack up!  Of course the bible does'nt deny the reality of pain and death, muder, suffering, but it does give us assurance that the day is coming, by the grace of God when for the believer these things will no longer exist.

But the suffering will continue to exist, won't they?.. according to your interpretation!   Come on, they will exist or they won't exist? Scripture says one thing and you say another! But I do see where you're going, you're trying to say that the scripture pertains to your version of believers only... I like it how you added the words "for the believer" in there. Such little additions are a bit naughty hey? That's a very us verses them sort of argument... see 1Tim 4:10: "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."  - another thread for where that goes...

Jude v 6,7" and the angles which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in EVERLASTING ( AIDIOS! ) chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

Angles? Were they bent? (ha sorry, cheap shot) Reserved in chains unto the judgement day. As we've seen in my previous few posts, these everlasting words can have indefinite definitions. Here in Jude he expressly limits the duration by stating that it is only unto a certain date. We understand that the imprisonment will terminate at the time of judgement. What happens after judgement? Answer = death... (as we've seen in countless other scriptures that I've shown you).

7- Even as Sodom and Go-morrha and the citys about them in LIKE manner, giving themselves over to forication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an Examble suffering the vengeance of eternal fire "

Yes, very good model for my hypothesis. I was hoping you'd bring it up. In like manner? Sodoma and Gothamcity were destroyed in the fire, notice that? and the earth salted. If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example of your hell. The cities, however, were completely desolated. The effects of the fire are eternal... the torment isn't. Sodom & Goanna weren't slowly roasted over a barbie for eternity. Remember those words? Destroyed... consumed... blah blah blah

"IF anything less than eternal punishment be due to sin, what need was there of an infinite sacrifice to give deliverance from the punishment?

You hang a lot off this guy's quote... Animals have four legs, a table has four legs... therefore a table is an animal. NUP. The guy's quote is illogical... eternal punishment would be equal to eternal sin, not sacrifice.. but sin is finite and not eternal therefore his logic is furtherly refutable... confused? read it again.

Such was the deepest love of God that a way was made to save us from the eternal punishment through Jesus. Look Moth  I dont like the idea of eternal suffering anymore than you do. My only hope is what Jesus did for me. And that i will embrace with all my heart.

The infinite sacrifice of Jesus wasn't so infinite then hey?... perhaps if he'd of sacrificed himself for more than three days he might have done better? it wasn't enough to have victory over death and hell it seems.. hmmm... or was it? It was supposed to be... according to the bible.

The beginning of the bible: He said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal torment. The ending of the bible: no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4 (yes again, seeing we're gonna flog the horse).

You're holding your own Wazza... and you're certainly not being patronising or arrogant like me. I admire that... you are dodging most of my points though and I'll list them later for you.

MothMonster

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 12:44 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

If the writers of the New Testament had wanted to communicate that suffering in hell would be without end, they could have used the Greek word aidios (which means perpetual),

And thats just the greek word Jude was using as a type and examble of the future judgement.

 

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 2:08 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revivals Blood

Reply to : MothandRustIf the writers of the New Testament had wanted to communicate that suffering in hell would be without end, they could have used the Greek wordaidios(which means perpetual),And thats just the greek word Jude was using asa type andexamble of the future judgement.

Here in Jude he expressly limits the duration by stating that it is only unto a certain date. You can't be eternal until the 20th of December or whatever. We understand that the imprisonment will terminate at the time of judgement. Ya gotta read the whole scripture dude and put it into context.

Oh and by the way... the verse in Revelation. You have both added your own words to it while changing others... naughty.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: (you add here "for believers only")  for the former things are passed away... behold I make all things new (you change all to some)" Revelation 21:4-5.

In a private message, you tell me that your arguments (of which you haven't given many, nor refuted many of mine) are all correct simply because 90% of the christian world agrees with you (lol) - did you do a quick survey of them all last night?.. pmsl. Doesn't make you right, not by a longshot. Ahhh, the wonders of statistics! Most of them would argue who would be included in the term christianity in the first place. Can you show me the evidence of this 90%, or did your pastor tell you that?

Sad that many xtians would believe in eternal torment when 99.5% of scriptures on the subject relate hell to death and destruction and consumation and etc... of course it it easy to find safety in numbers and be accepted by your loving hell-preaching friends rather than actually opening your eyes to scriptures and challenging the norm of the many. I understand that. Lucky some studious christians did challenge their beliefs in the time of Roman Catholic rule or Revival doctrine.

You really really want the non-believers to burn in eternal torment don't you? It seems to turn you on and get you very passionate.. so much in fact that you will interpret and twist the very few scriptures that seem to suggest it.

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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 2:30 PMCopy HTML

(A cut and paste.. some paraphrasing, but my own words would not do it justice - Moth) Unfortunately for the eternal torture preaching Christians, Jesus was careful to limit the phrase... pandering to the well known mythology that was used by the pharisee at the time. I've underline and put in red the key information here.

AIDIOS.



AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED.

 There is but one Greek word beside ai?ios rendered everlasting, and applied to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."

  Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where ai?ios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of ai?ios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the ai?ion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?

   1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the ai?ion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by ai?ios, indefinitely long.

   2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by ai?ion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the reservation in chains will cease, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.

  The pharisees of the day promoted a punishment mythology that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, he discipline, resulting in reformation.

That said, Revival Blood, there is a loophole in your theory and it is now up to the individual to decide whether they want to fully believe the Bible's own precise words or not. Don't take the words "unto the judgement" out and thereby hack it to pieces as you've done with Rev 21.

Regards Mothman

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 2:49 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

(If the writers of the New Testament had wanted to communicate that suffering in hell would be without end, they could have used the Greek word aidios (which means perpetual),

And thats just the greek word Jude was using as a type and examble of the future judgement.

 

You can twist the verse's as much as you like moth, hell! you can even make  them mean whatever you like, you have one way of looking at it, but that is far from the truth of it.  The Bible speaks of it as a place to be avoided. And thats enough for me to believe, not because a pastor, or a church or what ever % of the christain world  says so,  but becase within me, and my faith in Christ's teachings,  I beleive it to be so. If Jesus warned us of this place, and that it was a place to be avoided, well then I except it to be true. I think I will stick with the words of Christ rather than beleiving teachers who regard the bible as a book of error. 

Thats all from me on the subject, been good chating. Not thats its been a real nice subject though, and no, I'm far from a GRC hell fire man!!  lmao!

cya!

RB

 

 

"I think it's fair to suggest that 'hell' is so bad that it's completely beyond comprehension. Perhaps it's for this very reason that there is the imagery we find in the parable of Lazarus " 

-Ian

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #82
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 3:07 PMCopy HTML

Conclusion?

Are we getting to the end of this yet? I try to keep my word count down... just can't.

You can twist the verse's as much as you like moth, hell! you can even make  them mean whatever you like, you have one way of looking at it, but that is far from the truth of it. 

There is always more than one way of looking at anything, and you are entitled to believe any truth you like. Many do. Can you help me find the verses I twisted though? That would be helpful. I didn't add the word 'unto' to Jude... it was already there... and I didn't hack up Revelation 21 like you did. Thank you once again for obliging in my crazy way-out theory that God is good enough to create a civilisation where most of it doesn't end up living in an endless existance of torment... haha.. would hate to see that God play Sims 2... haha... anyway, let's continue.

"I think it's fair to suggest that 'hell' is so bad that it's completely beyond comprehension. Perhaps it's for this very reason that there is the imagery we find in the parable of Lazarus and Dives? - Ian"

I don't deny Ian's statement when using the bible as the only source of information. It is certainly a period of time and punishment one would wish to avoid if they believed in the infallibility of the book. But I do not see the bible explicitly or conclusively saying it will be an eternal state of punishment... nope, nowhere... check back through the thread.

Degrees of hell?

I can see the concept of degrees of punishment for finite periods. Rev 20:13-14 says that the occupants of hell will be judged according to their works before hell itself is cast into the lake of fire (that's the second death)

The big bouncy bible teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.). Look those up if you like... says things like more tolerable for some than others... rewards according to works... especially read Luke 12:47-48!! Still doesn't seem very fair but at least it reads that the punishment is metered out rather than eternally tormented.

Unless you can refute any of my scriptural arguements to do so... And remember such refutations must be made without changing/adding/deleting the bible words.. or by backing up your arguement by telling me that 90% of the guys behind you say it's so.

The Bible speaks of it as a place to be avoided. And thats enough for me to believe, not because a pastor, or a church or what ever % of the christain world  says so,  but becase within me, and my faith in Christ's teachings,  I beleive it to be so. If Jesus warned us of this place, and that it was a place to be avoided, well then I except it to be true.  I think I will stick with the words of Christ rather than beleiving teachers who regard the bible as a book of error. 

You regard me as a teacher. Flattered... I certainly recommend you sticking to the words of Christ - it does sound like a place to be avoided... even if it is only temporal. Oh and universalists are far from thinking the bible is a book of error. But some do.. so do some christians. I myself was playing by the rules and ONLY using scripture itself as a source. Not Dante's inferno or "Bill and Ted's Bogus adventure"... if you do want to look at the idea of the bible being a book of error though, we can look into the many contradictions already discussed in other threads.


Other wacky subjects 90% of Christians follow blindly (I'd love to explore in other threads):

  • Seven day creation (young earth vs old earth)
  • Creation vs Evolution
  • The Rapture? (Does the bible say the good or bad will be left behind)
  • World Wide Flood? or localised flooding?
  • Universalism view on salvation compared to Mainstream (stuff the Revivalist view... over that - haha)
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:16/09/2006 5:43 PMCopy HTML

Something to ponder (scriptural tossing aside)

Allow me to continue:

If "Jesus Christ Holy Spirit God" creates and sustains all things then he either does or allows everything that is done in heaven or on earth. If countless helpless human beings are being tortured, then Jesus is doing it. (take that in for a second... ok, continue) Satan may have brought suffering and death to the whole human race in some views. However, if eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, Jesus will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life. That'd be really nice of him eh?

If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom many love, praise, and worship, that man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

Hmmm... Seriously... that has got to make you think outside the box... if you believe such a thing.

As I've said before, the belief of such a loving deity allowing this heinous existance wipes God of all believability and credibility. Dunno who wrote much of this article, but it's a bloody good read...


Abraham's bosom

As promised, here's the low-down on the parable (cut and paste ):

'And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; and in Hell (Hadees) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16: 22, 23.

If this is a literal history of the after-death experiences of two people, then the good are carried about in Abraham's bosom; and the wicked are actually roasted in fire, crying out for water to cool their tongues. If it be history, then the good are obliged to hear the appeals of the damned forever! And they are so close to each other that they can chat across the gulf. pfftt... what a joke.

IT IS A PARABLE

The story is not fact but fiction: in other words, a parable. In Judges 9, we read,

"The trees went forth, on a time, to anoint a king over them, and they said to the olive tree, reign thou over us."

This language is positive, and yet it describes something that never could have occurred. All fables, parables, and other fictitious accounts which are related to illustrate important truths. It is obviously a parable and not a real history because of the circumstances of it, namely, the rich man lifting up his eyes in Hell and seeing Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

"To them who regard the narrative a reality it must stand as an unanswerable argument for the purgatory of the papists."

Jewis mythology - The Jews have a book, written during the Babylonish Captivity, entitled Gemara Babylonicum, containing doctrines entertained by Pagans concerning the future state not recognized by the followers of Moses. They were not obtained from the Bible, for the Old Testament contains nothing resembling them. They were among those traditions which Jesus condemned when he told the Scribes and Pharisees, "Ye make the word of God of none effect through your traditions," and when he said to his disciples, "Beware of the leaven, or doctrine of the Pharisees."

Jesus seized the imagery of this story, not to endorse its truth, but to convey a moral to his hearers; and the Scribes and Pharisees to whom he addressed this and the five preceding stories, felt- as we shall see-the force of its application to them.

DOES NOT TEACH ENDLESS TORMENT

But if it were a literal history, nothing could be gained for the terrible doctrine of endless torment. It would oblige us to believe in literal fire after death but there is not a word to show that such fire would never go out. We have heard it claimed that the punishment of the rich man must be endless, because there was gulf (chasm, chasma) fixed so that those who desired to could not cross it. But were this a literal account, it would not follow that the gulf would last always. For is it not written that the time is coming when:

"every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hiss shall be made low?" Isa. 30: 4. When every valley is exalted what becomes of the great gulf?

If the account be a history it must not break the promise of "The restitution of all things spoken by the mouth of all God's holy prophets since the world began." There is not a word intimating that the rich man's torment was never to cease. So the doctrine of endless misery is after all, not in the least taught here.

THE TEACHING OF THE PARABLE

But what does the parable teach? The brief, graphic descriptions given by Jesus, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation on the one hand and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.

The rich man died and was buried. Abraham is called the father of the faithful, and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles would accept Christianity and become Christian nations. What is meant by the torment of the rich man? The misery of those proud men, when soon after their land was captured and their city and temple possessed by barbarians.

The before mentioned quotes are not from Universalists, but from those who accepted the doctrine of eternal punishment, but who were forced to confess that this parable has no reference to that subject. The rich man or the Jews were and are in the same Hell in which David was when he said:

"The pains of Hell (Hadees) got hold on me, I found trouble and sorrow," and "thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Hell." Not in endless wo in the future world, but in misery and suffering in this.

HADEES IS TEMPORARY

But is this a final condition? No. In brief terms, then we may say that this is a fictitious story or parable describing the fate in this world of the Jewish and Gentile people of our Savior's times, and has not the slightest reference to the world after death, nor to the fate of mankind in that world.

Let the reader observe that the rich man, being in Hadees, was in a place of temporary detention only. Whether this be a literal story or a parable, his confinement is not to be an endless one. This is demonstrated in a two-fold manner:

1. Death and Hadees will deliver up their occupants. Rev. 20: 13.

2. Hadees is to be destroyed. I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20: 14.

Therefore Hadees is of temporary duration. The Rich Man was not in a place of endless torment. "Whatever the state of either the righteous or the wicked may be, whilst in Hadees, that state will certainly cease, and be exchanged for another at the general resurrection." Thus the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Primarily, literally, Hadees is death, the grave, and figuratively, it is destruction. It is in this world, and is to end. The last time it is referred to (Rev. 20: 14) as well as in other instances (Hosea 13: 14; I Cor. 15: 55), its destruction is positively announced.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:12/11/2006 8:57 PMCopy HTML

Hell  was one of my biggest hurdles. It would greatly help you to read through the OT. The first five books are enough to get you scratching your head and asking..."This supposedly takes place over a thousand and some odd years. Where are the warnings of such a place to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, MOSES, Aaron, the Israelites? Where is there a promise of an eternity in heaven as well?" There is not one reference to eternal hell in almost the ENTIRE Old Testament.

You can then see the bible for what it truly is...a story that grows and adds tidbits here and there from other religions.

Hell was taught by the Zoroastrism religion which came before Judaism and Christianity. In their version of hell the "sinners" are purified by its fires and then allowed to enter heaven after 12 months.

The best way to overcome the fear of a possible hell is to study your way out of it. You the good head on your shoulders and do indeed lean on YOUR understanding through logic and reason.
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