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mf doom
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Date Posted:16/08/2005 8:58 PMCopy HTML

Define Christian. what do you think a christian is, just so i know whether i am one or not...?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:24/08/2005 7:20 AMCopy HTML

i might just be one then... unless we need to go into what heaven is (there was a definition chat about hell, so why not).

i usually avoid labelling any abstract concept definitely, these days, but to me heaven is basically a comfortable place... usually incorporating state of mind.

that would probably co-incide with your definition of a christian, which probably assumes the kingdom of heaven exists. although the revivalist have it existing too, but on another plane. you know, when they say your name is written in the lambs(?) book of life. like a parallel kingdom. but you probably don't get to experience it until you die physically or the world ends...
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:26/08/2005 1:42 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude

...or the world ends...
Speaking of that, now that we know the universe is such a big place, does the end of the world actually mean the end of the earth or of the universe?  No matter what we do to our little planet, we will have little to no impact on the state of the universe.  So what impact will 'the end of the world' have in the big picture?  Not much at alll I reckon.
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/08/2005 11:28 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude

i might just be one then... unless we need to go into what heaven is (there was a definition chat about hell, so why not).i usually avoid labelling any abstract concept definitely, these days, but to me heaven is basically a comfortable place... usually incorporating state of mind.that would probably co-incide with your definition of a christian, which probably assumes the kingdom of heaven exists. although the revivalist have it existing too, but on another plane. you know, when they say your name is written in the lambs(?) book of life. like a parallel kingdom. but you probably don't get to experience it until you die physically or the world ends...

At great risk of having this post either deleted or being heavily censored by " Pastor Wrongfield" - I reply to your post.

If you follow the gospel narratives very closely, you will noticed that the  prime objective of all that  Jesus ever preached about was "His Kingdom".... and many times  Jesus used the the words "Heaven" and "God " synonymously.. Jesus either used the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" or "Kingdom of God" in general meaning  the same thing.. Looking into greek meanings, the word "Kingdom" can also mean "Realm" so  you could also say  "The realm of God"... Jesus also stated that "God is a Spirit" so you could also state that "Kingdom of Heaven" equates to the "Realm of the Holy Spirit"...  for a little prooftext I quote from Luke 17:21

"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Paul also makes mention " the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."  So while Jesus is yet to return, in the meantime we ie the followers of Jesus are told to occupy His Kingdom until He comes or returns...  The Key to the Kingdom of Heaven is knowing Jesus Himself since Jesus is also God and this is possible through the agency of The Holy Spirit ..

and as far as Mr Jonah's post I can only add that the "end of the world" is really more correctly referring to an "end of the age" or more likely in my opinion, the end of the world or age as we know it...

Anon civilian 

 

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:30/08/2005 8:22 PMCopy HTML

yeah, i like the parables about the kingdom of god, when it is being likened unto things like mustard seeds and all that. it is all very cryptic and it appeared (when i used to read about it) that it was something you only got (got as in joke, 'get' it, too) if you had it. like the cryptic descriptions could only be decyphered by the chosen few meek people on a spiritual plane. and i used to get it when i was stoned. i used to also understand mental illness and how churches and television worked when i was stoned.

hard to explain, of course.

about the end of the world... good point. i guess it meant the world as we know it. because if the planet exploded, nothing beyond it would matter to all the dead people anyway. it was written at a time when the thought of migrating to mars was not considered.

it's really great that people can have a relationship with jesus, a character in the bible. i would understand it more if it was described more along the lines of his ideals inspiring a comforting and motivational dialogue in one's head. i think some of the jargon of christianity leads others to think they are weird because not enough people try to come up with the most effective descriptions possible for experiences. talking about communicating truth.

some people find it easier to rely on descriptions that are ready-made and passed on, which is understandable when it comes to spiritual things. i mean, you have and undescribable experience and someone says.... 'yeah, that is this'. and you go '... yeah yeah eXACTLY!' and settle for the existing jargon.

if anyone can understand me, you might agree that is hard for someone who is no longer doing this and relying on faith and belief for understanding... rather trying to use logic to map everything in the world and put it all into perspective... it's hard to grasp concepts like spirit, realm, kingdom, christian.... without wanting to break it all down to it's smaller parts (which i think is getting closer to the truth... or at least greater understanding of it). it's like i no longer have the christian attitude of 'i'm sure it all makes sense, i don't need to question any more, the lord's got it in his hands, it's all good, i'm saved'... the kind of ignorance we all need to survive, but in extreme doses.

now it's like, 'ok, if you really do have all the answers, can't you just spit it out?' just say it. how hard is it to talk and make sense to people who are not of the same mind as you... well as you can see, i might be failing here myself, but i'm sure you can pick up bits and pieces of sentences here which are saying ' self-labelled christians' biggest enemy can be themselves for not improving the way in which they could be more convincing'.

if it really is a matter of life and death, isn't there some way of 'converting' (pun) ancient script and spiritual experiences/concepts into a useful tool in this day and age?

whether it is the end of the world or the kingdom of god, i find it admirable that people can claim to understand and agree with these concepts. maybe part of this understanding is made possible only through being humble and a bit trusting (a little bit ignorat?). i must admit, life was a lot more simple for me back then when i had this mentality, although now, i really understand the concept of mental growth and that it might be the opposite of growth in ignorance (which is where i would be if i continued to create that ideal dream world).

well, i'm sounding really bad... and no, i haven't been stoned for a long time... maybe i should just end like this:

how can a christian become a non-christian? is there any evidence against 'once a christian, always a christian?'. is it only a label give to us by ourselves or member of a church and therefore can be voided by one of these sources saying 'i'm/you're no longer a christian'?

is it possible for a christian to grow as a christian, so fast that he 'outgrows' the christians around him? (not ness. talking about myself) maybe the christians around him are at the level of christians in the new testament.

is it possible that the christian concepts and parables are so cryptic and open to interpretation that a christian can be very different to a typical christian and still, somehow be within the parameters of 'christian'. or could be living by the concepts of jesus christ?

if you read this, thanks and well done. if you reply, the same but even more!
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:30/08/2005 8:59 PMCopy HTML

and i must go on a bit, just to put it into perspective...

the thing that interests me was the fact that jesus was once a jew. if he was the son of god, it's sad that most of the jewish church did not believe it. and that his followers were apostles (an ardent early supporter of a cause or reform; "an apostle of revolution").

also, when the dude comes up to him and says 'good master' and he replies with 'i'm not good, none but the father are good' and when he says (regarding healing) 'ye are gods, greater things than this shall ye do'.

is it because he was half human?

it appears that more glorification than necessary (even according to the one being glorified) is being placed on jesus of nazareth. is this not idolatry of a kind? an abstract golden calf?

the attractive thing about christianity and christ is 'the cause' and the undercurrent against stagnant and redundant laws and rigid, self-righteous authority. it's romantic etc.

then we come to the point of labelling people as 'christians'. some people might support jesus or understand him more and not really fit into this description.

as we have learnt with the revival centres, it's easy to get trapped in one way of looking at things and not realise that it's bigger than we thing - christianity. and the big one... the size of god (if 'he' exists) . it will never fit anyone's description/definition and by the way people talk, it appears some people will never comprehend this.

in all the different views and letters and opinions, somewhere along the line i'm sure there are a lot of christians being made to feel like they are not. at the same time, a lot of christians might just be living a foolish existence, only because they claim to know what's going on.

socrartes said 'the only fact that i'm aware of is that of my own ignorance' and i find it hard to see a more truthful caonfession or a better starting point for belief.

i must say that i used to believe that intelectualising things could be dangerous and devilish, but looking back, i think that might have been part of my 'ignorance maintenance'.

to end on another question to ponder... was jesus ever really a jew? if so, when he become a non-jew?

thanks again


if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:20/01/2006 8:16 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude



and i must go on a bit, just to put it into perspective...the thing that interests me was the fact that jesus was once a jew. if he was the son of god, it's sad that most of the jewish church did not believe it. and that his followers were apostles (an ardent early supporter of a cause or reform; "an apostle of revolution").also, when the dude comes up to him and says 'good master' and he replies with 'i'm not good, none but the father are good' and when he says (regarding healing) 'ye are gods, greater things than this shall ye do'.is it because he was half human?it appears that more glorification than necessary (even according to the one being glorified) is being placed on jesus of nazareth. is this not idolatry of a kind? an abstract golden calf?the attractive thing about christianity and christ is 'the cause' and the undercurrent agai



You,ve answered your own question Your not a Christian.
Your post shows no understanding of the Son of God very little respect for who He is.
Very little understanding of the Scriptures.

So your not a Christian and that ok not a lot of people are.
Its probably too hard and the need for respect and humility is beyound most.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:20/01/2006 9:20 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

You,ve answered your own question Your not a Christian.
Your post shows no understanding of the Son of God very little respect for who He is.
Very little understanding of the Scriptures.

So your not a Christian and that ok not a lot of people are.
Its probably too hard and the need for respect and humility is beyound most.

I say beware of anyone who says they have understanding of the Son of God, let alone scriptures. Questions were asked and you made no attempt to answer them except to call avenger ingorant. This is a forum for discussion - contibuting to a discussion means much more than calling someone ignorant and then not saying anything to show your point of view.

You also suggest that christians are cornering the market on respect and humility. Ahhh, the incredible arrogance of bible believers who puff themselves up when they cough up this stuff. If you are a christian then you are not displaying the very attributes that you believe defines one.

Respect and humility... "remember the beam in your own eye, eh?"

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:21/01/2006 8:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous



You,ve answered your own question Your not a Christian.
Your post shows no understanding of the Son of God very little respect for who He is.
Very little understanding of the Scriptures.

So your not a Christian and that ok not a lot of people are.
Its probably too hard and the need for respect and humility is beyound most.





cool, cool. would you mind substantiating this healthy expression?

come on, you're doing well, get it all out.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:21/01/2006 8:34 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



I say beware of anyone who says they have understanding of the Son of God, let alone scriptures. Questions were asked and you made no attempt to answer them except to call avenger ingorant. This is a forum for discussion - contibuting to a discussion means much more than calling someone ignorant and then not saying anything to show your point of view.

You also suggest that christians are cornering the market on respect and humility. Ahhh, the incredible arrogance of bible believers who puff themselves up when they cough up this stuff. If you are a christian then you are not displaying the very attributes that you believe defines one.

Respect and humility... "remember the beam in your own eye, eh?"





oath bro. these people are funny. if they are serious.

its almost boring now, ripping them to shreds.

but hey, their idol leads them into masochism, so why should i let them drag me into sadism?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 7:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude



oath bro. these people





Ripping to shreds ????
I thought this was a Christian Forum maybe not .

These people ?
MMM... If you do not Fear God why bother hassling those who would.
The Bible says turn from evil and follow the ways of Jesus. If you do not want to do so why rubbish those who try to.
Cheap cracks and cheap posts are so mundain and boring.

I believe it was people like you that Cruxfied Jesus ....I may be wrong but thats how I read it.
Mockers scoffers last days so boring
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 11:36 AMCopy HTML

Revivals. The message shared vigorously between them is:We are right and everyone else is wrong! So there.

First and foremost is their doctrine of salvation... I'm sure we're all familiar with their lust in pursuing the idea of eternal safety aligned with the moment of glossolalia (speaking in tongues), when one has truly received the Holy Spirit. This must be coupled, of course, with an ongoing time and life of sinful admission and the act of placing one's body completely underwater.

As we've found out, after leaving that strangling church system, there are many many variants of this salvation formula according to different slants, all depending on a myriad of beliefs and semantic arguments. All of which are too tiring to label and decipher... but hardly any of which are as convoluted as the 'simple' salvation doctrine presented by the Revival body of churches.

The fun part has been unraveling just what else the Revivals said was so. Now, in retrospection, there were some crazy ideas that were and still are heralded as the divine truth built onto their house that was thought to have been built on the rock of the one true salvation doctrine. But how far down the rabbit hole can we go? What else is bunk out in Christendom... sure there are some that say to seatbelt the baby in when you toss out the bathwater. I think I'll do the smart thing and actually take out the baby first.

Christians say (in all their differing varieties) that they are divinely provoked by the word, but as we've seen in various threads... there's more than one way of looking at various issues. Here are some christian topics, put your favourites into your shopping trolley and have a look at what flavour christian you may be.

These are all popular across the board and the numbers of believers don't dictate the truth behind the matters... in my opinion.

Four views on Revelation: Preterist, idealist, classical dispensationalist and progressive.

Three views of the Millenium:Pre,Amil., and post

Three views on the Rapture:Pre-tribulation; Mid-tribulation; and post-tribulation

Four views on hell:Literal, metaphorical, conditional, purgatorial

Four Eternal security (once saved always saved?): Calvinism, Mod Calv, Reformed Arminianism, and wesleyan Armin... blah

Three views of the miracle gifts: Cessationist, Open but cautious, and pentecostal/charasmatics

Creation and evolution:Young earth, old earth, and theistic

Other issues that divide and confuse the Christian community. It's easy to make up a list of doctrines and say this is this and that's all there is to it, but then we have a yoke... and heaps of shackles:

Women in the ministry- sigh... some women seem to welcome being labeled inferior because the bible tells them so.

Divorce and remarriage- What is biblical and what is practical?

God's mercy- Love your enemies... but exterminate the Canaanites

Church government: Episcopaliainaism, plural elder, presby, and singe elder - pffft

Unity indeed. Then there's worship styles, witnessing demands and beliefs, church growth to divide and conquer, messianic jew views, aplogetics, the laws, sanctification and lately, new agism and pluralism... andone partridge in a pair tree. Have I missed anything? Tick all your boxes, discover your fruits and gifts and find out which recipe makes a holy fruitcake out of you.

If I was going to label myself with any of them I would be a Preteristconditionaloldearthianuniversalist.
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 1:36 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



Reply to : AnonymousThank you you,ve made my pointThat's a childish rebuttle. What sort of people crucified Jesus... why, wasn't it conspired by the high and mighty religious nuts... ?





Actually it was the Romans not wanting to upset the religious leaders.
However the crowd ;the every day Jews the non believers those that were sinners like you and me were the ones who wanted Jesus cruxified.
If He came today you and those like you would act the same way.
This is no so childish a rebuttle i think.
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 1:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Mr J



Reply to : AnonymousRipping to shreds ????I thought this was a Christian Forum maybe not .These people ?MMM... If you do not Fear God why bother I believe it was people like you that Cruxfied Jesus ....I may be wrong but thats how I read it.What an accusation! Are you for real? Pull your head in moron!





Well said Mr J.
Simple and stupid with no substance
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 2:27 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Actually it was the Romans not wanting to upset the religious leaders. If He came today you and those like you would act the same way.
This is no so childish a rebuttle i think.

Hmmm, so nice of you to insinuate that I would try to crucify Jesus if he came today, that's so sweet of you. Jerk. Honestly, you have problems.

So who really crucified the Son of God?... here's a whodunnit for you.

The suspects:

  1. (political) Romans not wanting to upset the religious & Pilate broke their law by allowing his death
  2. (Gentiles) Luke 18:31-32 31: He will be handed over to the Gentiles
  3. (Religious) The religious conspiring to do away with him for rocking the boat
  4. (Friend) Judas for money - some think it was too force his mighty hand to act... blah
  5. (Family) His dad set him up to die to balance up the sin ratio debt
  6. (business) Big business carpenters trying to knock off opposition

Matt 26:3-4
3
Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him

First, who killed Jesus is irrelevant. If you're a devout Christian, Jesus would tell you not to blame but to forgive. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, you'd have no route to salvation. So in a way you should be thanking those who executed him, not blaming them.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 2:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



Reply to : AnonymousActually it was the Romans not wanting to upset the religious leaders. If He came today you and those like you would act the same way.This is no so childish a rebuttle i think.Hmmm, so nice of you to insinuate that I would try to crucify Jesus if he came today, that's sosweet of you. Jerk. Honestly, you have problems.So who really crucified the Son of God?... here's a whodunnit for you.The suspectspolitical) Romans not wanting to upset the religious & Pilate broke their law by allowinghis death(Gentiles) Luke 18:31-32 31: He will be handed over to theGentiles(Religious) The religious conspiring to do away with him for rocking the boat(Friend) Judas for





Actually Pilate was the law. the Jews no longer were "allowed" to order capitol punishment. "the Scepture had been removed"

We are told to forgive those that seek forgiveness as many times as they ask us.
We are not blaming anyone for Jesus's death just stating the facts sinners killed him.
Unrepentant sinners are not forgiven.....Except in their own minds.

Your whodunnit is simple ......not accurate but simple...!

You seem very intollerant of critisism.....nice language at times...most times.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 3:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : The Prophet

Hi Prophet, thanks for the feedback and engaging conversation.

We are told to forgive those that seek forgiveness as many times as they ask us.

As a christian, do you only believe you should forgive people who ask for forgiveness? 70x7, if asked. I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting. I often forgive friends who don't ask for forgiveness. Sometimes they show it in act and not in words. But even if it's not, I try not to hold grudges.

We are not blaming anyone for Jesus's death just stating the facts sinners killed him.

so, everyone then? Well, there's the answer to the whodunnit... and what i was sort of meaning by the 'simple' post.

Unrepentant sinners are not forgiven.....Except in their own minds.

So that is akin to blasphemy then? do you have to repent of every single sin or does Jesus get the picture with a blanket prayer. I suppose when someone repents they are washed clean but only until the next blemish.. confusing to me.

You seem very intollerant of critisism.....nice language at times...most times.

Yeah, sometimes lol.

 

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 6:13 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



Reply to : The ProphetHi Prophet, thanks for the feedback and engaging conversation.We are told to forgive those that seek forgiveness as many times as they ask us.As a christian, do you only believe you should forgive people who ask for forgiveness? 70x7, if asked.I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting. I often forgive friends who don't ask for forgiveness. Sometimes they show it in act and not in words. But even if it's not, I try not to hold grudges.We are not blaming anyone for Jesus's death just stating the facts sinners killed him.so, everyone then? Well, there's the answer to the whodunnit... and what i was sort of meaning by the 'simple' post.




Hi H&S

We need to ..forgive , ALL who give us a hard time .Keeps the bitterness from coming in.Not easy to do at times.
Unrepentant sinners,do not want forgiveness therefore none is given,you dont get if you dont ask. Humility and a recognition of ones sin is required.
We are told to come to the cross to seek forgiveness. Sure the price has been paid but you need to go ask. Its conditional upon your attitude.
"Needs Advice" says God still loves me ?I read sinners create a barrrier between a Holy and Righteous God. Darkness and Light cannot exist together.

No its not like Blasphemy of the H.S. re; Jesus, work through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Some one said Christians sin by mistake they may fall into sin. Others dive into and wallow in sin and enjoy it. Christians ask repeatedly to be forgiven for their stupidity or what ever caused them to sin.
Others pander to the flesh and enjoy sin and are not sorry.

Its all free will choice.


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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:23/01/2006 10:23 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Well said Mr J.Simple and stupid with no substance

"For God so loved the world that he...made this place called Hell and if you go there then you're on fire forever and you can't ever stop it.  And there is wheeping ans gnashing of teeth and eternal torment...forverer and ever....  It makes Auscwitz look like Disneyland.  God made it, not the devil.  Everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will go there and even some people who do believe in Jesus because they got the doctrines wrong...especially the Mormons and stuff.  Yeah, that's how much God loves the world!"  - John 3:16 + some paraphrasing of other verses.

Ok, I will pull out of this room.  I shouldn't even be here.  If anyone needs me then I'll be in the NOT Christian Room eternally separated from God.

 

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:25/01/2006 11:28 PMCopy HTML

'the bible says this, the bible says that'

when are you going to realise this is the main problem.

what about what YOU say, what do YOU think. impossible, right? when you base your whole life around the bible. you have probably forgotten who you are and forgotten what you really think.

i mean, yeah, the moral teachings of the bible...  i mean, they are almost obvious in this day and age. eg. the benefits of forgiving or whatever. yet, we still find people debating the real meanings, arguing over its ambiguity and the diversity of interpretations. its probably been over-analysed. in the meantime, the big wheel keeps on turning. life goes on.

ok, i'll bet you 4,456 dollars that the lord aint coming back. i mean, has he come back yet? how many times did you predict when he might do so. how many times did you use is imminent return as motivation to stay good and work out your salvation? did you ever think that the world would still exist in the year 2006?

well, i guess i don't have any choice but to bet my life on it.

if he does return, i get some sort of punishment right? some sort of pain. some sort of affliction, torment, discomfort or whatever...

so i guess, unless i mend my ways and repent again and realise 'how stupid of me, these churches were right all along', i'm betting my life on the fact that your saviour aint gonna show up.

 

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:26/01/2006 2:09 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude

in the meantime, the big wheel keeps on turning. life goes on.ok, i'll bet you 4,456 dollars that the lord aint coming back. i mean, has he come back yet?
Wow!  You are fulfilling prophecy, Avenger!
 
2Peter3:   3 First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire. 4 This will be their argument: "Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created."
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth up from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the world with a mighty flood. 7 And God has also commanded that the heavens and the earth will be consumed by fire on the day of judgment, when ungodly people will perish.
8 But you must not forget, dear friends, that a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and everything in them will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be exposed to judgment.*
11 Since everything around us is going to melt away, what holy, godly lives you should be living! 12 You should look forward to that day and hurry it along-the day when God will set the heavens on fire and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world where everyone is right with God.
14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to live a pure and blameless life. And be at peace with God.
 
The reason the Lord is waiting to return is so that as many as possible can be saved -
15 And remember, the Lord is waiting so that people have time to be saved.
 
Lord, please turn those hearts who have hardened, into the soft soil that is willing to receive Your word.  Open their eyes to Your truth (not RCI), that You created the world; that Your rule is:  the person who sins must die; that we all have sinned; that Jesus came and lived the perfect life we could not live and died in our place (took our punishment) and that just by trusting that Jesus' death paid the penalty for us - we are saved!  nothing we do of ourselves.  Jesus has done everything necessary for everyone to be saved - our part is just realizing we are sinners, being sorry for that and trusting that Jesus paid the penalty (death) for us - He took our place.  Thank You Jesus! 
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:26/01/2006 8:18 PMCopy HTML

well, very nice post. i actually couldn't remember that passage, especially the appropriate verse 4.

nice to see you have unshakeable faith and a certain positivity.

unfortunately, i did deliberately forget that god created the heavens and the earth.

i experienced one of these shifts in paradigms. i think it's the only way we can help facillitate this utopia of equality that many revolutionaries including jesus tried to promote. my self-righteousness was extreme and so was my shift away from it. but it has been the most educational part of my life (my walk), moving from 'we are right' to 'it is possible that someone else is'.

in the process i started to see passages like the one you quoted as inbuilt defence mechanisms. and i like them for what they are. empowering people (underdogs, even) to stay strong despite the weather. these writers were great at anticipating the type of arguments that would be used against them and equipped their followers well. i just wish i had some sort of compilation of authors encouraging me in my own struggle.

good faith seems to be a good thing. especially when there are things about this world that bring you down, and in my understanding, good faith (in general) is what jesus promoted. in fact, i have a little good faith (despite how i come accross), for instance in the fact that i believe jesus was a man. he is actually just a character as we have not met him (you know the sense i mean) or have access to video footage.

and my main point is that faith would be irrelevant/non-existent/unnecessary if people KNEW they were right. if they knew everything. if there really was 'evidence' or 'proof' (realistic types).
you know, hebrews 11 etc. the attitudes that some 'christians' is scary and tantamount to a passive-aggressive (sometimes not even passive) version of jihad.

i understand that for generations the world has been about conflict, nationalism and football teams, but maybe this is the type of thing we have to get over in a globalising world.

whatever the case, however nice the christian in question is, is seems that they cannot help but be dogmatic in their approach. fine, i've been there, but they must also accpt that this means they cannot really enter any rational/logical discussions in such a way, and of course, they cannot expect others to be persuaded by their scriptures. - to see the same things they do. to consider their scriptures as evidence or even relevant.

i am sympathetic to the christian faith in general. but i feel it is flawed and i'm willing to argue extremely against it, until people start to recognise what's really going on.

by any means necessary.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:26/01/2006 9:57 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : stuff

This is the christian room and as a guest here I'll try to show some decorum for the posters. This is however a thread that questions the definition of christianity so... I haven't shaken the label completely for various reasons that are my own. On the other hand, I wouldn't call myself a christian because of the Ned Flanders stereotype that goes with it.


Avenger dude: well, i guess i don't have any choice but to bet my life on it. if he does return, i get some sort of punishment right? some sort of pain. some sort of affliction, torment, discomfort or whatever...

Yeah, the body that was left behind on earth will be given back to you with all nerve endings fully functioning and ready for a certain amout of time of excruciating pain and torture. I'm not sure how long that will be seeing time is measured by the movement of celestial bodies which will no longer be in existence.. dunno. The very notion of hell is a perfect reason to suspect that the mainstream christian has a completely wrong take on the bible.


Avenger dude: ok, i'll bet you 4,456 dollars that the lord aint coming back. i mean, has he come back yet? how many times did you predict when he might do so. how many times did you use is imminent return as motivation to stay good and work out your salvation? did you ever think that the world would still exist in the year 2006?

Yah, it ain't necessarily so. A preterist view of Revelation sees the prophesies describing the events of 70 A.D.  I find many christians find it hard to operate without the 'urgency' factor. It's always been a well used sales tactic to buy the car quickly before the other interested parties call.


Love - our part is just realizing we are sinners, being sorry for that and trusting that Jesus paid the penalty (death) for us - He took our place. Thank You Jesus!


Why on earth should we be sorry for being born the way he created us. Bang, we're born sinful... now say you're sorry and I won't kill you or punish you forever. And he didn't pay the full penalty... he didn't die for long... three days later he was walking around like nothing happened. I don't get that. If the result of our sin was eternal death and he only got 3 days of it then it's hardly a fair swap, hardly taking our place. What? were we only going to get three days of death if he didn't take our place?...

He took our punishment (Three days of death?) I'm open to discussion on this because I'm interested in a christian's thoughts on it.


The reason the Lord is waiting to return is so that as many as possible can be saved

That's a lame excuse. It doesn't fit. If he came back in 5 minutes there would be many people who could have been saved... many kids who just ticked over into 'an age of understanding'... if he came back in 5 years it'd be the same story. Could it be possible that the world won't end as christians think it? We already know that the Tim Lahaye 'Left behind' theory is utter crap.

 

 

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:26/01/2006 10:14 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



Yeah, the body that was left behind on earth will be given back to you with all nerve endings fully functioning and ready for a certain amout of time. I'm not sure how long that will be seeing time is measured by the movement of celestial bodies which will no longer be in existence.. dunno.





interesting. i have some dead nerve endings in my arm and i was wondering if those will be restored too. and i have a few scars which i don't like. i mean, i want to look my best.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 12:50 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful


Why on earth should we be sorry for being born the way he created us. Bang, we're born sinful... now say you're sorry and I won't kill you or punish you forever. And he didn't pay the full penalty... he didn't die for long... three days later he was walking around like nothing happened. I don't get that. If the result of our sin was eternal death and he only got 3 days of it then it's hardly a fair swap, hardly taking our place. What? were we only going to get three days of death if he didn't take our place?...

He took our punishment (Three days of death?) I'm open to discussion on this because I'm interested in a christian's thoughts on it.


H&S - It is all about FreeChoice.  We have kids, knowing they will disobey us, but overall expecting they will love us and respect us.  Some kids choose to kill their parents.  That is their free choice.  God made us, knowing we would sin, but allowing us ONE way to be with Him forever.  We are free to choose His way, or our own way.  If we choose His way we have heaven for eternity.  If we choose our own way, we are rejecting Him and will spend eternity away from Him.  Hell is the absence of God - all the evil is free to be done without God stopping any of it.  He made us, He calls the shots.  We are just made from the dust of the earth and really have no right to tell God anything.  I love God for all the wonderful things He has given and choose to believe Him and His rule for salvation.  When we stand before Him after our deaths - the only thing that will matter is if we trusted that Jesus took the death we deserved.  Everything else means nothing if we don't have Jesus' blood covering our sins.  If we didn't have free choice we would just be robots and incapable of love. 

If you hurt your spouse, or the person you love most on this earth, would you say sorry for hurting you?  How much more should we say sorry to the God who created us and gives us all we have?  It is our choice to be humble, realizing we are nothing - or be proud (like satan) and think we are something.  All sin comes from pride.  Lord, please open the hearts and minds of those who read this, soften their hearts to turn to Jesus (God), to choose His way - to accept His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sin - as it is the only way to salvation.  John 3:16 For God so loved the world (that includes you), that He gave His only Son that whoever (that includes you) believes (trusts) in Him SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE!  Lord, may many trust in You even now!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

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$%*'`[Love]%*'`@

Reply to : H & S Reply to : HolyandSinfulWhy on earth should we be sorry for being born the way he created us. Bang, we're born sinful... now say you're sorry and I won't kill you or punish you forever. And he didn't pay the full penalty... he didn't die for long... three days later he was walking around like nothing happened. I don't get that. If the result of our sin was eternal death and he only got 3 days of it then it's hardly a fair swap, hardly taking our place. What? were we only going to get three days of death if he didn't take our place?...He took our punishment (Three days of death?) I'm open to discussion on this because I'm interested in a christian's thoughts on it.H&S- It is all about FreeChoice. We


It is not about tongues!  tongues does not save anyone.  Alien worshippers speak in tongues, many false religions speak in tongues.   If tongues is an "angelic language" then satan speaks in tongues - because he is an angel - he is the most beautiful angel God created.  Tongues is not proof of salvation.  Tongues is not proof of anything.  Anyone can go "Ba, ra, she, Ko, Ta, ma, kro, Te........"  Anyone can fake it.  If you are faking it, It is fake!  Don't let Revival Centres tell you it is true.  Revival Centres are 100% wrong!  Tongues are in the Bible - but nowhere does God say "you must speak in tongues to be saved".  It is not there.  No where does God say "If you speak in tongues, you will be saved".  It is not there.  Tongues do not save you!   Please, anyone reading this, do not trust in tongues to save you.  God says "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins."  It breaks my heart to hear Revival Centre testimonies like "I didn't believe in God, but I got baptized and spoke in tongues, so I'm saved".  You are not saved if you don't believe in God!  You are not saved if you don't trust Jesus' death alone to pay for your sins completely!

Also, It is unscriptural to baptize anyone who is not saved!  In the Bible - Baptism is only for people who are already saved!  Baptism does not save you either.  Pastors should only baptize those who are already saved!

If you stand before God after your death and He asks "Why should I let you in to heaven?"  What would you say?  If you say "Because I speak in tongues"  you will not get in!  Tongues does not save you, never has, never will.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 9:15 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude



yeah, i like the parables about the kingdom of god, when it is being likened unto things like mustard seeds and all that. it is all very cryptic and it appeared (when i used to read about it) that it was something you only got (got as in joke, 'get' it, too) if you had it. like the cryptic descriptions could only be decyphered by the chosen few meek people on a spiritual plane. and i used to get it when i was stoned. i used to also understand mental illness and how churches and television worked when i was stoned.hard to explain, of course.about the end of the world... good point. i guess it meant the world as we know it. because if the planet exploded, nothing beyond it would matter to all the dead people anyway. it was written at a time when the thought of migrating to mars was not considered.it's really great that people can have a relationship with jesus



I read your post with interest. I too suffer the same dilemma. To me, the end of the world means when you pass out of this life, that is time on this Earth for 70 or 80 years or whatever. Of course we consider the destruction of the Earth as catastrophic for mankind as we know it and on a cosmological scale, it would be a very tiny event compared to events that regularly occur in our universe.

But to me, spirituality has little to do with physical events including physical death. Most of us know jacksh.. about the spiritual world but I do know that it is likely that it is not restricted by time or space.

I haven't the answers either but for me, living now day to day knowing that my Creator cares for His creation whatever that means satisfies my soul. This is something I cannot explain because it has no physical boundaries. I just know! We are all very busy looking for answers which I believe aren't there. Putting people into boxes simplifies things for the human carnal mind because it reduces the number of variables one has to deal with. The human mind is not capable of conceiving anything particularly large or small let alone without any dimensions at all.

I am thankful for my 17 years in the RCI as it has awoken me out of my uncaring attitude towards my existence here on earth. But also thankfully, I have moved on to greater things.

I believe God has an answer for everything and it is totally up to Him to judge the individual, not a self appointed group of people in some organisation. How many posts have I read where the poster says "I am not judgmental in any way but others shouln't be doing this or that because....etc". Jesus saw right through this when he talked about the beam in the eye. We are responsible for our own walk and salvation, not anyone elses.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 10:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]

Lord, please open the hearts and minds of those who read this, soften their hearts to turn to Jesus (God), to choose His way - to accept His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sin - as it is the only way to salvation.  John 3:16 For God so loved the world (that includes you), that He gave His only Son that whoever (that includes you) believes (trusts) in Him SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE!  Lord, may many trust in You even now!

Even now!

Funny when people pray in text... I wonder when God checks these forums for prayers? Nice post re tongues, that would have been good in one of the other threads... it looked as if you were directing it at me though... preaching to the converted there. I still think it's a funny belief to think that the torture and temportal death of an extension of God atones the sin of approximately 12 billion people who were unwittingly born into a sinful dirty existence, but only for those that say they're sincerely sorry for being born into it. I've went to church weekly for 34 years and it still sounds wacky.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 11:06 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]Lord, please open the hearts and minds of those who read this, soften their hearts to turn to Jesus (God), to choose His way - to accept His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sin - as it is the only way to salvation. John 3:16 For God so loved the world (that includes you), that He gave His only Son that whoever (that includes you) believes (trusts) in Him SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE! Lord, may many trust in You even now!Even now!Funny when people pray in text... I wonder when God checks these forums for prayers? Nice post re tongues, that would have been good in one of the other threads... it looked as if you were directing it at me though... preaching to the converted there. I still think it's a

Hi H&S!

I was directing the prayer and posts (especially about tongues) to any who would possibly read the post ever!  Not you specifically, please don't take it as anything against you.  My heart goes out to you for having gone through the torture for all those years. 

I was thinking about your questions, and it reminded me of a story about a farmer.  It was a freezing winter night.  There were birds beating themselves silly trying to get in his windows towards the light/warmth.  He tried to go open the barn door, scatter bread crumbs and go outside to show them the way in, but none of those ways helped; they just worked them up more.  He thought, "if only I could become one of them and lead them to the barn where it would be warm and safe - saving their lives."  Then he realized, that is what Jesus had done for us.  Jesus (God) left the riches and glory of heaven to become one of us to lead us to heaven.  God wants us to be with Him, but our selfishness causes us to choose our own way.  Just as if the farmer could become a bird and tell the other birds to follow him to the barn - some would follow to salvation, some would choose to keep beating themselves against the windows to their death.  It is up to us to choose.  That is all God asks us - choose His way - to salvation.  We don't have to get all twisted up in questions about why this or why that.  Just answer....if you really, deep down in your heart... want to be saved..... If you do...   God is always waiting for you to come to Him with His arms wide open, He loves you.  If you don't want to be saved....that is your choice.... God will never force anyone to be saved....He will let you keep banging yourself against the window.  It is your choice....   

Just like ...if you love someone....if you forced them to marry you....they would not be there out of love for you.  There would be no love for you in their hearts.   You would want them to marry you because they chose to, because they wanted to, because they really loved you.  God is the same.  He wants us to love Him, but He can't force us to love Him - trying to force love is impossible - it is no love at all.  Real love is allowing the other to choose to love you or not.  If they choose to love you, then you have a relationship.  If they reject you, choosing not to love you, then you don't have a relationship.  Do you want a relationship with God?  Choose to love Him.  He already loves you!

We were born sinful.  That is just the way it is.  We can't change it.  There is no point banging our head against the window pain of our sinfulness.  Let's look for the way out....God's love, Jesus' death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins, thank You Jesus!  May Your love fill many hearts today and always, softening them and turning them to You - the only way of Salvation!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 4:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]

My heart goes out to you for having gone through the torture for all those years.

It didn't really feel like torture until about 15 years into it... there were more fun times than bad but after a while the realisation set in that we were living in a fools paradise where our free thought and life was being sucked away. Actually it did become torturous... sort of like Chinese water torture. Every time we sang Jehovah Jirah or listened to another talk it was like another drop of water to the head that slowly started to drive me insane... hence my insanity... lol

There were birds beating themselves silly trying to get in his windows towards the light/warmth.  "if only I could become one of them and lead them to the barn where it would be warm and safe - saving their lives."  Just as if the farmer could become a bird and tell the other birds to follow him to the barn - some would follow to salvation, some would choose to keep beating themselves against the windows to their death.

I get the idea that the farmer would want to turn into a chook to show them the way. It's the bit where the farmer let's the birds peck him to death so that they could live forever that confuses me.

It is up to us to choose.  That is all God asks us - choose His way - to salvation.  We don't have to get all twisted up in questions about why this or why that.

Ask, knock, study... We were given a brain to ask questions and it's a proven fact that it's the best way to learn. I doubt God would want us to take it all in without questions about this or that. He's not a cult leader after all. Part of being childlike is to ask questions.

Just like ...if you love someone....if you forced them to marry you....they would not be there out of love for you. Real love is allowing the other to choose to love you or not.  If they choose to love you, then you have a relationship.  If they reject you, choosing not to love you, then you don't have a relationship.  Do you want a relationship with God?  Choose to love Him.  He already loves you!

The problem is that some believe that if one chooses not to love him... or are ignorant to his love, then that the same God who already loves you will kill you or even worse send you into eternal punishment. If I let you know that if you didn't choose to marry me then I would kill you and torture you with fire for billions of endless years.

but He can't force us to love Him - trying to force love is impossible - it is no love at all.

Threatening to kill and torture someone if you don't love them is forcing love. I'm sure you would agree.

We were born sinful.  That is just the way it is.  We can't change it.  There is no point banging our head against the window pain of our sinfulness.

I was a good baby. I was hardly capable of thought. I had no control over my bowels, it was embarrasing having to get my nappies changed all the time. I wasn't sinful... I'm not going for that one nor am I going to bang my head against any windows. As I got older I made many inappropriate choices that you could say were sinful... Even now!

I hope you're not offended by this conversation. It'd be silly to come into an ex-cult forum and try to convert people who have spent their lives pouring through the bible and allowing themselves to go along with the doctrines people have fished out of the bible. I think it's a good book and has some nice stuff to say. It's nice to consider the beliefs of others.. fascinating really. We're all very familiar with your beliefs and feel free to keep them going in this room as long as your not closed to friendly debate. What Revival affiliation were you involved with? Khulman's?

 

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:27/01/2006 8:51 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : exReadBiblist



But to me, spirituality has little to do with physical events including physical death. Most of us know jacksh.. about the spiritual world but I do know that it is likely that it is not restricted by time or space.





well, i generally tend to agree with this, but only at times when i give it enough thought. most of the time i'm trying to deny such a thing as 'the spiritual world'.




I haven't the answers either but for me, living now day to day knowing that my Creator cares for His creation whatever that means satisfies my soul. This is something I cannot explain because it has no physical boundaries. I just know!





interesting, because it reminds me of when i used to argue strongly for the faith (and even RCI doctrine). every now and then i would be able to drag my uncle and father into an 'intellectual discussion about religion'. and these normally unreligious people came out with the same conclusion. something along the lines of hoping that the creator cares about his creation. praying that god is a 'safe' god. but i can't help but consider the suffering people (i know it is a clich?to mention 'why does god let bad things happen?', but)... it seems that we are in a luxurious position to actually contemplate these things. nevertheless, if creation was intentional and credit was due to one particular entity, i also hope that this entity has the ability to maintain it and keep it as safe as possible. i hope it cares.





I believe God has an answer for everything





well, if we were really made in his image, i'm sure he does!

i guess we have no choice but to be ignorant. yes, we label and categorise for the sake of comprehension. but with time, we can start to 'loosen the boxes', whatever i mean by that. for intance... now we can say that we don't know the gender of god therefore we don't have to refer to 'him' as 'him'. then again, if you are in an organisation where everyone uses the same terminology all the time, it would be hard to escape this. nonetheless i think it must have some effect psychologically... god may become male in one's imagination.


if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:28/01/2006 3:53 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful


I am not offended at all.  As I said before, my heart does go out to you. 

One quick response - we are born sinful.  Babies are the most selfish creatures - just thinking about themseves -  feed me, change me, entertain me....hmmmm sounds like some people we know 

Anyway.  Put a bunch of toys in the room...and if there are two kids - they will almost always fight over just one of them.  and if the other goes to play with a different toy - the other kid will try to get that toy away from him, too.  They usually want the biggest piece, and have no problem with biting, kicking, scratching, etc. to get their way.    sounds like some other people we know 

You make some good points...I will need God's wisdom to answer.  Talk to you soon.  I do love hearing from you.  May God be at work in our hearts, providing His wisdom, showing His truth and love.....

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:28/01/2006 4:39 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful


Another quick thought - God does not want us to be apart from Him.  The Bible says He wants everyone to be saved.  But we have a choice.  He is not causing us harm.  Our choice is what causes us harm. 

Just as if you tell your child - don't touch the stove, if you touch it, it will hurt you.  They have a choice.  If they trust you, they will not touch it and they will be saved from hurt.  If they choose not to believe you, they will touch the stove and not be saved.  They will jurt for a long time.  You, as the parent, did not do the hurting of them, yet you gave them a choice; Just as God does not do the hurting of us, we have the choice.  As in this life, our choices have consequences, so do our eternal choices.  That does not mean God is doing anything mean.  He can't.  God is perfectly loving and perfectly just. 

A judge who just let everyone go, would not be just, would not be fair.  Many would be in an uproar if all the murderers were just let go.  They chose to murder, they chose to be punished.  God is our judge.  He is just.  His rules are:  believe in Jesus' death as paying the price for your sins and be saved or don't believe and don't be saved.  Don't touch the stove, or touch the stove.  The choice is yours.  God has told us the outcome of our choices.  We have no one to blame but ourselves for the choice we make.  We decide our eternal destiny by the choice we make. 

Choose Jesus!  He is the only way!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:28/01/2006 9:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]

Babies are the mostselfish creatures - just thinking about themseves - feed me, change me, entertain me....hmmmm sounds like some people we knowAnyway.

It's called survival. Babies don't have the abililty to think about other people yet. They have to develop into that. At that age they must think about feeding me becasue they can't do it themselves. They depend on the parent. They depend on us to entertain them because they are forming bonds and again, can't entertain themselves. That's not sin... that's far from sin. That's natural growth and dependency that god designed into the package.

Sure as they get older they will need to learn how to shake off the self thoughts and share but it is a natural development from survival to co-dependancy. Not sin... but I suppose you can call this development sin if you like. The instinct to protect what is our... toys, food, etc... is a natural and healthy one. Again, as we learn and develop, hopefully we learn how important it is to live morally, ethically and friendly with the people around us... (taking on more of the attributes that Jesus preached).


Just as if you tell your child - don't touch the stove, if you touch it, it will hurt you. They have a choice. If they trust you, they will not touch it and they will be saved from hurt. If they choose not to believe you, they will touch the stove and not be saved. They will jurt for a long time.

This is a good point, and as a teacher, I see the actual value in the kids who touch the stove. Our god given curiousity and freedom of choice allows us to experience things for ourselves. The kids who touch the stove learn a lesson... They remember well the natural consequences. Their hand heals after a short period of pain and they are wiser for it.

Put the christian scenario in place... If you touch the stove (and are not saved, as you say) then you are thrown into hell and hurt for a very long time.. eternity? You will never learn because the punishment will never stop.


A judge who just let everyone go, would not be just, would not be fair. Many would be in an uproar if all the murderers were just let go. His rules are:  believe in Jesus' death as paying the price for your sins and be saved or don't believe and don't be saved. 

Yeah, God's not THAT forgiving now is he. We certainly don't want to share heaven with murderers and used-car salesmen. Though christians through the ages have put in an effort to spread their doctrine many people did not get the opportunity to hear about Jesus... will they get in on a loophole?

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:29/01/2006 8:34 AMCopy HTML

no offence by any of the following:

do people work for the love of it or to 'feed me', 'entertain me'?

and how about this huge example of childish behaviour;

'SAVE ME'

... and i will do whatever is required of me.

i think people should considering redesigning their kitchens (even though i'm all for learning through experience).

i mean, that money we earn, after we've finished feeding and entertaining 'me', could be used to protect the ones we love. put as much danger out of reach. put some locks on the stove knobs. make the stove higher. educate the kid on the principles of heating food and that some things are hot. whatever, but do something more clever than saying 'obey me', 'trust me, i know what i'm doing/saying'. especially if you recognise the natural human drive to rebel (of course, the essence of free will).

just like the tree of knowledge of good and evil. and who should know more about his creation that the creator? who can predict the future, if not 'God'?

i'm enjoying (not necessarily by choice) eating of the tree of good and evil. the snake was right... you really do start to come to grips with the ideas of 'gods'.

but, i guess, if you would rather shut up and obey, so be it... i guess it is almost a choice, although you would be too scared to do otherwise... and you have been told/advised/asked to obey, so i guess there is not much choice in that.

like i hinted at in my last post, there are reasons why we believe and in what we believe.

along the way, we also start to believe in the little things that have been added or 'clarified' by other people (scribes, etc.) who fill in the gaps with the most sensible thing they could come up with using the knowledge/science/information/education available at the time.

if i can refer back to the example i used, do you believe that god is male? or masculine even.

also, if anyone knows which word is used in the genesis creation myth for 'god', could you please tell us if the original was the plural form? i think it was something like elohim. let US make man in OUR image.

all these little differences can really make a difference to how you treat the bible. and then, how you see yourself as a christian.

are you supporting the views of christ or the discourse of christianity?

jesus did to 'jewdom' what some of us are doing to christendom. are we so bad? are we so wrong? are we not christ like. was he not a revolutionary? was he not a jewish man? are you going to saolve all your problems with magic and rely on fantastic apologies such as immacualte conception?

if you really cannot survive without it. if you need a constant 'saving' in your life, of course, i cannot say this is wrong, because it is helping you, filling in a void, making you happier. i'm all for that.

i have been through a phase in my life where it did fit and work for a while. it was there at the right time and i guess nothing better was on offer. in my ubringing, it offered a great framework/worldview/belief system as a foundation for life and developing my own. which, as illustrated in pinocchio is a lot more fulfilling and 'real'.

there seems to be a fear to be original and individual. this is considered selfishness, whereas i cannot see anything more selfish that the pursuit to save one's self.

then having the audacity to tell others that it is the only right way. it's nice to want to save people from hell, but you must remember that they might not believe in hell either.

the idea of spreading the good news is like the act of civilising the world. the white european made it his burden to educate other races, taming the savages, even though the savages arguably had a more complex and sofisticated cuture, a culture that was stolen. killed.

ok... dramatic, politically extreme, but this is the way in which the gospel is spread. is that love?

i think jesus was interested in truth. and i'm sure the devil is all about deception. so why not be on full alert?

i love innocent people and i guess, ideally, i would like to be a noble pastor and protect people's innocence, providing a sanctuary for them. but what happens when they are confronted by the big bad world?

bringing it back to the child/parent analogy, if you love your children, would you not want to prepare and equip them for the world? have we not all witnessed the effect of over-sheltering? have we not seen how extremely good christians make extremely evil worldy people? have we not noticed that some of the most drug-""ed kids come from rich families or brady-bunch families?

the prophets of old made predictions according to trends and signs that were around them.

why should we shut up, just becuase the last few prophets claimed to be the last ones? and i would argue that they didn't even say that in the first place. i have to trust the devil.

and on that note, before i become a cult-leader, i will get back to my homework. thanks to all those who bothered to stick with it.

cheers.

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:30/01/2006 1:15 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful


 

Hi H&S!

Heaven will be full of people who were murders, etc.....but who realized what they did was wrong and turned to Jesus for salvation. 

I can't help but repeat myself.  We all have a choice. Even people who have never heard about Jesus have a conscience that tells them there is right and wrong.  They see the world God created to show us there must be a Creator.  As people choose to accept God's truth, God leads them in more truth.  (A true story of a boy in the middle of nowhere - seeing the older tribesmen making "gods" out of stone and wood and worshipping them - saying those are "gods" that are made by men, they can do nothing, i want to know and worship the God that made the men.  God sent a missionary to that remote tiny village to speak His Gospel to that boy - and that boy was saved.) That is just the way God made it.  If people choose to reject God's truth that is revealed to them, they don't receive more truth. God is completely just and gives us opportunities to be saved.  If people reject God's message, they are rejecting God's free gift of salvation.  When they die, He will not force them to be with Him for eternity.  They rejected Him on earth, they will receive what they chose for eternity - eternal separation from Him.  As I said before, that is what hell is - eternal separation from God.  If we reject Him on earth, He will not force us to be with Him for eternity.  It is our choice.   

May God fill those reading this with His wisdom and grace, may He soften their hearts to receive His Truth - that many may spend eternity with Him. 

John 3:16  For God so loved the world (that includes you), that He GAVE (free gift for us) His only Son (God in the flesh), that whoever (that includes you) believes (trusts) in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life (saved FOREVER - everlasting life is EVERLASTING - can't lose it).

No tongues, no baptism, just our heart reaching out to Jesus! 

There is a great chasm, separation between man and God - the bridge to get to God is Jesus!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:30/01/2006 5:36 AMCopy HTML

so i guess i am in hell and i guess the only punishment involved is not knowing it. geez, i feel sorry for the christians who are manic depressive or are being tortured somewhere. i wish they had a piece of the peace of hell that passes all understanding that i am experiencing.

anyway...

i stumbled across a 'lost page' of the bible (no, it wasn't the page that says 'the bible is complete' on it). anyway, it claims another road to salvation and it is one that if you continue to follow, it will lead you deeper into the truth.

it states(and i quote):

"if you click on the following link and locate the definition of just one word you don't understand, you shall surely be lead deeper into the truth. the more unknown words you discover, the closer to the light wilt thou be-est":

http://crc.sa.utoronto.ca/articles/Regimes.html

i'm not sure if it works, because i'm always a bit weary to submit to the biblical writers, but i'm sure if you believe it to work that it will... or send you into a hell... which you will probably never notice, which equates to (ignorance is) bliss, which equates to heaven, meaning heaven IS hell, which confirms that the devil IS deceptive.

just a bit of whacky fun.

with a pinch of salt, enjoy!
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:30/01/2006 6:05 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]



Reply to : HolyandSinfulHi H&S!Heaven will be full of people who were murders, etc.....but who realized what they did was wrong and turned to Jesus for salvation.I can't help but repeat myself. We all havea choice. Even people who have never heard about Jesus have a conscience that tells them there is right and wrong. They see the world God created to show us there must be a Creator. As people choose to accept God's truth, God leads them in more truth. (A true story of a boy in the middle of nowhere - seeing the older tribesmen making "gods" out of stone and wood and worshipping them - saying those are "gods" that are made by men, theycan donothing, i want





As I see Scripture, God first softens the heart of an unbeliever.
He is then able to hear the Word of God.
The Law is the mirror that shows man his true nature.And the end result of his life time of sin.
The Gospel of Forgiveness can then be offered to those that are truly sorry for their sins against God.

Contrition repentence forgiveness = Born Again
Grace from God. GRACE + NOTHING No signs no acts just Grace
However after , a born again one may speak in tongues and recieve other gifts and is commanded to be baptised.

What say you ?


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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:31/01/2006 3:42 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : The Prophet

As I see Scripture, God first softens the heart of an unbeliever.He is then

I believe salvation is available to ALL - God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall never perish but have eternal life!

It is so hard for me to comprehend those that argue against God's way of salvation - it is a Free Gift! Take it!  Free Eternal Life!   Yes, we are born in sin.  But that is Adam's fault - he choose to disobey God and filled the human race with sin....When God looked at all He created He said "It is Good!"  So God did not create man in sin.  It is also satan's fault.  God created lucifer the most beautiful angel ever, to have a high leadership place in His Kingdom; but lucifer became proud and wanted to be God, wanted to be worshipped.  Man chose to believe satan over God.  All our sin comes from our Pride - thinking our ways, our thoughts are higher than God's.  God is the King of the Universe.  We are made from the dust and unworthy.  That's just the way it is.  He is the Potter, we are the clay.  He made us.  He makes the rules.  We choose to follow Him or not. 

I believe baptism is only for saved people, so it must be done after salvation.  It is the first step of obedience in our walk with Christ.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:31/01/2006 4:08 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude

no offence by any of the followingo people work for the love of it or to 'feed me', 'entertain me'?and how about this huge example of childish behaviour;'SAVE ME'... and i will do whatever is required of me.i think people should considering redesigning their kitchens (even though i'm all for learning through experience).i mean, that money we earn, after we've finished feeding and entertaining 'me', could be used to protect the ones we love. put as much danger out of reach. put some locks on the stove knobs. make the stove higher. educate the kid on the principles of heating food and that some things are hot. whatever, but do something more clever than saying 'obey me', 'trust me, i know what i'm doing/saying'. especially if you recognise the natural human drive to rebel (of course, the essence of free will).just like

Hi avenger dude!

No offence taken.  I love to have you here!

Since you seem to reject God, the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, salvation by faith in Christ's atoning death, etc... I would would like to hear what your thoughts are on eternal things.

To me - the heavens declare the glory of God - just as one would not expect a 747 to appear after a tornado rips through a junk yard, one would not expect an explosion to create a beautiful, round, ordered, organized world where animals have instincts, plants have cycles, seasons...People have DNA that has more information than huge computers can contiain, people have emotional capabilities - to love, to reason, to have compassion....

If you see a watch, you know there must be a watch maker.  You would not think that some chemicals collided and became a watch.  Our world and human beings are millions of times more complex than a watch, how much more they show the hand of a creator!

Prophecies on Jesus Christ:

    There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of them made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ.

   The odds of only 40 of them being fulfilled by Jesus is... not just one in one trillion,  but the statistical experts claim that  the mathematical probability of this coming to pass is less than one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros  (Dr. Peter S. Ruckman). Prophecies of the Old Testament Fulfilled in Jesus.  

God - who knows all - wrote the Bible through His Holy Spirit through over 40 men over 1500 years - God wrote the prophecies and fulfilled them!  There is more evidence for Jesus Christ being the Messiah than for the other historical figures at that time.  The facts are impossible to dismiss. 

Looking forward to hearing from you!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:31/01/2006 9:03 AMCopy HTML

hmmm, well, you've kinda caught me off guard. firstly, the attention. thanks. it's like suddenly putting the mic in front of me and saying 'now talk'. like, if i ever become a 'public figure', i would probably not run my mouth as freely as i do on this forum and with friends.

excuses aside, it's disclaimer time:

i don't really (meaning deep down) 'reject' the things you mentioned. that's too strong to be true.

maybe it's 'totality' that i'm against at the moment. the fact is, i'm still busy trying to work out what i'm trying to work out. the reason christianity seems to cop it from me, is probably because i feel i have a right to. because i am part of it and it, a part of me... for eternity, or at least alzheimers. i guess this must mean that i'm still bitter? or at least masochistic?

the strange thing is, i'm starting to find that this part of my identity is not unique, through my studies of cultural theory. in fact, it is an old phenomenon found on a global scale in a thing called post modernism.

well, basically, it started with modernism... in the 'enlightenment' or the age of reason,

"that period of about 100 years, from the mid-seventeenth to the mid- eighteenth century, when a new faith arose in the power of reason to improve human society... the 'enlightenment 'project' is the fostering of this belief that a break with tradition, blind habit, and slavish obedience to religious precepts and prohibitions, coupled with the application of logic by the disinterested individual, can bring about a solution to the problems of society"
(beginning theory, barry, 2002)

i suppose this is boring to you, but it is applicable to me. i mean, the people taking these steps (and it must have happened in large numbers) must have been brave. or there was good reason.

others like me, may possibly still be arguing on your side if we or someone we loved wasn't put out, or didn't witness something that was completely inapropriate.

i keep wanting to go deeper, but don't want to bore you or myself, so i'll keep trying to bring it back to your post.

the things you have written... it could be my mood, but i don't really have anything to say about them except that they are very interesting facts, i've heard (and used) the likes of them before, it's great to hear some arguments coming from you and other discourse than strictly biblical... and , unless i really made it my life's goal to disprove them (people can probably disprove anything these days) i don't really want to or think i can. some of these are great mysteries and things that keep us wondering, studying, or (for some) just trusting.

in reference to prophesies, though, although the figures are huge, this can also work in favour of my usual stance. i think i believe that the more people believe in a prophesy/prediction/idea/ideology (etc. etc.), and the more of them there are, then the likelihood of them coming to pass is increased.

isn't it amazing how the jews themselves, on the whole did not even believe jesus was the messiah?

i find it sad sometimes. especially if he is/was.

anyway, to wrap it up, there is a play called 'waiting for Godot'. there is so much to be said about it, but one of the interesting, positive and applicable points is that the characters engage in 'language games' with each other. (post-modernists agree that language games are all we have). each character speaks his version of the truth in a different context. eg. one might be more philosophically inclined, so his/her proposition and it's validity is only valid in the 'philosophical game'. [i should have just copied this in chunks from the book].

so you have a few people speaking from different points of view, speaking the truth in their own way. (a very simplified version)

post-modernists agree these 'games' are self-validating, without a trancendent reality behind them; they also provide us with the social identity we seek.

but two of the characters are looking for something deeper, and yet another highlights how it is the play between their words, which constitutes their social bond rather than any agreed-upon meaning.

i found it to be like the members of this forum. socially bonding, not reliant on agreement.

of course we can read into the play in many ways, but this is one which i found interesting. it goes further... maybe worth discussing one day... to do with what happens after you leave a 'totalising' 'metadiscourse' like 'christianity'. some are nostalgic about the lost wholedness of the past (modernists?) and others are not (post-modernists).

so if this language that i'm using is boring, irrelevant or even pretentious, its just the language i'm using to express myself and make sense of things, similar to your terminology and yours. and i understand.

ETERNITY... hmmm... we can discuss this together... i'll go first:

well, eternity or not(armageddon), i will probably die, unless they find a cure for death by then.
i just had to face that fact. gulp.

ok, i am no scientist, but i think the universe is considered to be constantly expanding. but they also say it started with a bang, but i think the former should imply that it was always happening before the bang. because maybe if there is a sudden beginning, there must be an end. but this is still human thinking in a universal context. then, even claiming there is a universe might imply that i'm a universalist and then why should i fight against totalities? so i guess it all comes down to start wars. then eistein says it's all relative, so he is implying some sort of duality? but duality coincides with singularity, because singularity creates duality, just because of the whole idea of 'us' means that there is a 'them'. then we get into binary opposites. so maybe we should start with the

ARBITRARY NATURE OF THE SIGN - if you haven't read about it, you could google this phrase if i have spelt it right.

ok, normally i would delete a post like this and leave the highlights... but i'm gonna post it for a while. when you see 'message edited', it means the shame has caught up with me.
but basically, to answer your questions... i don't really have a clue, but it's nice to chat.

i originally asked about christianity, because some christians use my methods to stimulate chat, which bothered me at first, but now i guess, deserves thanks.

narcissism is an interesting word

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:31/01/2006 3:33 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]



Reply to : The ProphetAs I see Scripture, God first softens the heart of an unbeliever.He is thenI believe salvation is available to ALL - God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall never perish but have eternal life!It is so hard for me to comprehend those that argue against God's way of salvation - it is a Free Gift! Take it! Free Eternal Life! Yes, we are born in sin. But that is Adam's fault - he choose to disobey God and filled the human race with sin....When God looked at all He created He said "It is Good!" So God did not create man in sin. It is also satan's fault. God created lucifer the most beautiful angel ever, to have a high leadership place in H





Hi,
Seems to be pointless casting pearls before, as they will trample it underfoot, intentionally or not,its meaningless unless a softening of the heart occurs first.
I like the mirror of the Law to reflect sin.Brings contition
I tend to believe from years of reflection those that are anti God who come from the RCI/RF groups were probably not "saved " in the first place. The Rev. gospel is not sound or even full.Jesus said those that are given me by the Father will never be lost or fall away.
I think its the story of the parable of the sower and the seed 4 types only one type really makes it.
This makes sense in light of the attitude of some ex members.
Which is good and bad news for ex rev members.
Good news for those that want to start again and have a real look at the things of God.
Bad news for those that are anti God they are innoculated against the Gospel as viv a vis some of the posts here reflect and will probably never be interested.
We can blame the Rev. groups for that situation

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:31/01/2006 8:42 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Prophet:

Seems to be pointless casting pearls before, as they will trample it underfoot

Say it... 'swine'... that's the bit you missed out... 'swine'.. let it out!

I tend to believe from years of reflection those that are anti God who come from the RCI/RF groups were probably not "saved " in the first place.

I'm really not sure who's more judgement about one's salvation, you or the Revival churches. I think, from a christian point of view, that it's a very dicey game to start running around and judging who is and isn't 'probably' saved. People who are saved don't get a halo.. they don't get a flame above their heads... they don't all speak in tongues (that's for sure). I'd be even wary judging people by their fruits because only God truly knows their hearts and he certainly wouldn't judge anyone by what they say in their on-line persona. The Revs thought they had it down pat and that is their downfall.

Bad news for those that are anti God they are innoculated against the Gospel as viv a vis some of the posts here reflect and will probably never be interested.

Prophet and Love - Good christian, bad christian... the names say it all. 'Love"... as your name suggests, I see a lot of compassion and genuine stuff from you. It's nice to discuss things with you here in the 'christian' room. Prophet (O.T. style), your name... all I sense from you is judgement and condemnation, expounding the word as if you're the oracle and keeper of the truth.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:01/02/2006 2:13 AMCopy HTML

didn't think i'd say it, but the revs aren't that bad at first. i mean, i think they encourage you to read the bible closely in your personal time and more than just the popular stuff. even if they don't mean to. i mean, we can't always completely blame them. although, yeah, they are pretty messed up.

well, you seem to think there is no point discussing (yeah, i see my pearls as pearls too - the point you always seem to miss), but hey, maybe there's something drawing us back to reply. for instance you get to display your lovely poetry etc.

then, if we all agree that preaching skills are useless on people as adament as yourself, i guess i'll sum up my side of this post for now. and, obviously get carried away in the process afterwards.

i'm part christian for one reason or the other, as part of a hyphenated/hybrid identity.

jesus was not a christian.

i might be fighting the real christian war for christ against men using his name for religious purposes. men organising the idolatory of his name. remember, jesus said he was not good.

his father may have been a roman soldier and the immaculate conception a way of hiding this affair/rape.

jesus's real name (reportedly) was Jeshua ben Yousef/Yeshua ben Yusuf and later Jeshu Hamashiac.

etc. etc.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:01/02/2006 6:02 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude

hmmm, well, you've kinda caught me off guard. firstly, the attention. thanks. it's like suddenly putting the mic in front of me and saying 'now talk'. like, if i ever become a 'public figure', i would probably not run my mouth as freely as i do on this forum and with friends.excuses aside, it's disclaimer time:i don't really (meaning deep down) 'reject' the things you mentioned. that's too strong to be true.maybe it's 'totality' that i'm against at the moment. the fact is, i'm still busy trying to work out what i'm trying to work out. the reason christianity seems to cop it from me, is probably because i feel i have a right to. because i am part of it and it, a part of me... for eternity, or at least alzheimers. i guess this must mean that i'm still bitter? or at least masochistic?the strange thing is, i'm starting to find that this part of my id

 

Thank you for your honesty!!!!

It was great hearing from you - don't edit!

I was never in RCI/RF etc....  but my sister, her husband and their 2 young girls are in - they have been in for almost 15 years.  We have tried to share in love how they are soooooooo wrong, but they just believe we are persecuting them when we do this, thus reinforcing their brainwashing.  This website has been so wonderful to open my eyes to what is going on.  I had questions about it from the start - but through this website i have seen the truth about it.  Thank you for whoever is keeping it going!  Thank you and may God bless you richly!

Avenger dude - please think about what happens after we die.  This earth can not be all there is.  We have souls, emotions, that lead us to search for eternal answers.  There is an eternity to spend - with or without God.  We choose now who we will spend eternity with.  If we think about the distance from the earth to the sun as eternity - then our life on earth is not even one inch.  Think about it - eternity - forever.  Where will you spend "forever"?  May God soften your heart, show you His truth, draw you to Him and comfort you.  I am sorry for all the harm this horrible organization has done to you.  Don't lump "christianity" in with them.  They are not Christians - they don't even know what Christian means.  They say Christian means "annointed one" - thus making themselves the annointed ones = gods.  Christian is a FOLLOWER of Christ (so, as you say, Jesus was not a Christian ) But Jesus ALONE is the Christ (the annointed one)!  He is the Messiah, He is our Savior - He is love!  Look to Him - never to man or "religion".

One point from your post - just because many people believe something - does not make it true.  Many thought Hitler would be the ruler of the earth....not!  Many hope for their team to win the finals - 1/2 of them are always wrong.  Only God could have made all of those prophecies happen!  He made them happen to give us proof that Jesus is the Savior of the world!  We have proof - if we choose to argue it away - we have no excuse when we stand before God.  Please, consider this 

My heart is going out to you Avenger dude - I will keep you in my prayers.

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

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$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : The Prophet

Hi,Seems to be pointless

I agree with you that many, if not most, in these cults are not saved.  One testimony said "I did not believe in God, but went forward to be baptized, and came out of the water speaking in tongues.  I was saved!"  What?  That is not salvation.  No mention of Jesus atoning death on the cross, no mention of realizing their sin and turning from it.  The saddest part was her daughter was dying, then right before she died, she spoke in tongues - so they think they will be in heaven together. Tongues is not salvation!  It is all about Jesus - alone!  Only Jesus!  Jesus living in us when we accept He died the death we deserve for our sins......

I think most in these cults are trusting "tongues" and not God.  Tongues will never save them.  Jesus said "I am THE way" - not tongues. 

It is very sad that so many are following the lie of satan.   Satan's favorite place is in a "church", twisting scripture just enough so people think they are saved, so they don't look to be saved anymore, but they really aren't saved.  Most of the "religions" in the world are this way.

Yes, the law is only the mirror to show us how sinful we are.  The law cannot save.   The Bible actually says those who, after hearing the gospel, fall back to trusting the law for salvation, are following the doctrines of demons!  Wow - that is my sister.  I have told her the gospel, yet she chooses to trust the RCI belief that you must keep certain "laws" to be saved - no adultery or you are lost FOREVER.  She is trusting herself to be saved - she can never save herself.  Our righteousness is filthy rags - worthless before our Holy God!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:01/02/2006 6:16 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : HolyandSinful

Reply to Prophet:Seems to be pointless casting pearls before, as they will trample it underfootSay it... 'swine'... that's the bit you missed out... 'swine'.. let it out!I tend to believe from years of reflection those that are anti God who come from the RCI/RF groups were probably not "saved " in the first place.I'm really not sure who's more judgement about one's salvation, you or the Revival churches. I think, from a christian point of view, that it's a very dicey game to start running around and judging who is and isn't 'probably' saved. People who are saved don't get a halo.. they don't get a flame above their heads... they don't all speak in tongues (that's for sure). I'd be even wary judgin

H&S

Thank you for your kind words.  God has given me a  heart of love - thank You Lord.  Before i was saved, all i cared about myself - and it has taken me a lot of growing to change.  We don't change the moment we are saved, it is a process - i think of it like peeling an onion - layers of sin God shows us, the close we get to Him. 

But love must get tough sometimes.  Love cares about the eternity of people and will speak the truth - even if others don't agree with it. 

A person who does not care where others will spend eternity - really does not love them at all.  Eternity - is forever and ever - this life is only a speck compared to eternity.  It is so important to KNOW where we will spend eternity - and we can KNOW FOR SURE WHERE WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY! 

The Bible says 1 John 5: 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

You can know for sure that you have eternal life!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:01/02/2006 6:48 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]



Thank you for your honesty!!!!

It was great hearing from you - don't edit!

Avenger dude - please think about what happens after we die. This earth can not be all there is. We have souls, emotions, that lead us to search for eternal answers. There is an eternity to spend - with or without God. We choose now who we will spend eternity with.

May God soften your heart, show you His truth, draw you to Him and comfort you. I am sorry for all the harm this horrible organization has done to you. Don't lump "christianity" in with them. They are not Christians - they don't even know what Christian means. They say Christian means "annointed one" - thus making themselves the annointed ones = gods. Christian is a FOLLOWER of Christ (so, as you say, Jesus was not a Christian ) But Jesus ALONE is the Christ (the annointed one)! He is the Messiah, He is our Savior - He is love! Look to Him - never to man or "religion".

One point from your post - just because many people believe something - does not make it true. Many thought Hitler would be the ruler of the earth....not! Many hope for their team to win the finals - 1/2 of them are always wrong. Only God could have made all of those prophecies happen! He made them happen to give us proof that Jesus is the Savior of the world! We have proof - if we choose to argue it away - we have no excuse when we stand before God. Please, consider this

My heart is going out to you Avenger dude - I will keep you in my prayers.





aw, now stop it, you're making me blush!
as you can see, being in here for a while IS making me soft.

about after we die... thought about it night and day since i was about 4 years old. hence, the ease at which i took to religion. i see a strong connection between fear of death and religion. and its the most natural thing in my opinion, for people who hated the thought of being separated from loved ones or were in a state of existential awe and hated to leave life all together.

your vision of eternity and life after death is beautifully romantic and it took me a while to get over those thoughts. i guess i wasn't saying they were wrong, but i dared to explore 'what if we DO just become worm food?'. the things that get in the way are these chemical combinations that produce emotions and thoughts and give us the impression we have a soul. there is a sort of denial of death. (these are my opinion, let me remind you). those who are at luxury to enjoy life and love hate the thought of death. we want to live forever. and its beautiful; tragically so.

the promise of eternal life. beautiful or the ultimate product? probably both. and MAYBE possible.
but the price? worth the risk of not recieving the promise? 'oh, but its god doing the promising'... again, beautiful, or well plotted out? or well plotted out to provide people with comfort and hope and joy? im soft enough at the moment to suggest the latter and say that this IS beautiful.

you mention the devil's paradise in church... in my theorising, i have come to the same conclusions, but took it a step further to include the 'history of the church' i mentioned earlier.
this includes pollution and dilution of scripture all along the way, despite the defence mechanisms of claims of purity, which cannot actually prevent these phenomena (even if they can provide more comfort etc.). in the church, the devil can mess with us through enforced 'bad' or 'crafty' interpretation. but considering the devil has almost always existed and his favourite place is the church for a certain reason, i don't put it past him to have affected the previous interpretations and documentation of the words and acts of jesus. ok... the defence mechanisms of authors being inspired by god... well, buy it if you want. i guess its about trust and believe, but so were the revs.

thus, when i was on the fringe of being in/out of church (or at least rci) and still in 'christianity' (as you are at the moment) i decided that the only trustworthy parts of the bible were the parables of jesus, and that the were parables for that reason: that the purity in meaning/message would be preserved - would stand the test of time and pollution/dilution along the way. this was the time in my life when i was saved in my opinon. i think you are saved when you are looking for something (comfort, for instance) and you find it. in the parables, i heard what i wanted/needed to hear at the time and this gave me strength to go on, not only to leave the rci's but christianity as i previously knew it. and even though i don't go to church or through any of the motions/rituals etc., the 'body of christ', to me, is an extremely open, lenient, unconditional and personal phenomenon. you don't have to do anything... even think about it. the comfort is so deep in the subconscious that religion as we know it has already played its path. the job has been done. the victory won. i have entered the sabbath (to use familiar phrases to christian) and at the moment, there is nothing anyone can say to make me doubt that. although i do tend to float in empathy sometimes. it's fun to relate.

now here i am, blessed to be blessed, in this big, (not always) beautiful world, which god has created, with people who he has created, and partaking in the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. if i remember correctly, this is the route we have to take, due to the original sin and loss of ignorance (bliss/eden/heaven etc). so my motto came to incorporate the clich? 'you only live once', or at least once in this form, right?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:01/02/2006 6:54 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Love [Anonymous]



Thank you for your kind words. God has given me a heart of love - thank You Lord.





just out of curiosity... (genuine, and this is open to any one in the same position)

when you have 'natural highs', nice phases, lovey moments, moments of spiritual enlightenment, etc. in your life, do you also necessarily have low points that correspond?

if so, these 'waves' kind of disappeared from my life as i developed my own (as such) belief system/identity etc. i found, i made myself stable. my mental health is better than it has ever been.

anyone have any comments about this? i consider it a real blessing.
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:02/02/2006 2:38 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude
 

Thank you again Avenger dude!  You have put a lot of thought behind everything.  Thank you for opening up.  I love that we are able to just talk about everything.

If there was a time in your past when you did trust alone in Jesus' death on the cross as taking the death you deserved (for salvation) - admitting your sin and being sorry to God for it - then you are ETERNALLY saved.  I pray this is the case.

One quick point:  God says in Heb 9:22 "In fact, we can say that according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified by sprinkling with blood. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins."

All the sacrifices of the Old Testament foreshadowed Jesus ultimate, perfect sacrifice - the shedding of His perfect blood to cover our sins.

Are your sins covered by Jesus' blood?  If not, there is no forgiveness.  If yes, then you are forgiven.  I don't understand how it works.  I just know that we were made from the dirt, by God - He calls the shots - It is His way alone that saves.  May you have the forgiveness granted by God by the shed blood of Jesus!

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Re:Define Christian. What do you think a christian is?.. Just so I know whether I am one or not.

Date Posted:02/02/2006 2:45 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Love]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude

just out of curiosity... (genuine, and this is open to any one in the same position)when you have 'natural highs', nice phases, lovey moments, moments of spiritual enlightenment, etc. in your life, do you also necessarily have low points that correspond?if so, these 'waves' kind of disappeared from my life as i developed my own (as such) belief system/identity etc. i found, i made myself stable. my mental health is better than it has ever been.anyone have any comments about this? i consider it a real blessing.

The love God has given me for other people, i don't consider to be a high.  But there have been times, alone with God, when He has filled me with His love - it is the most incredible experience i have ever had - more intense than anything - i never wanted it to end. 

I do have "down" times - but many wonderful servants of God did also in the Bible - especially after a spiritual victory.  My down times aren't that down - it's just a kind of draggy feeling - not being "up on the mountain top". 

My heart does ache for those who refuse to accept God's truth, who refuse to accept that God is the Boss over our lives, no matter what we think.  He gives us every breath we take, each heartbeat - and He can take them away anytime He wants.   He keeps the universe in motion, orchestrating so many wonderful things for us daily - sunrises and sunsets, beautiful oceans and beaches to enjoy, lakes and streams, animals to enjoy as pets, flowers, trees, children to love and be loved - wonderful variety of delicious food to eat - eyes to see everything, ears to hear - beautiful music - arms to hug - hearts to love.....so much more....thank You Lord!

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