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LoveBombedOut
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Date Posted:19/02/2011 12:57 AMCopy HTML

This is off the topic completely, but is it just me, or does any woman out there ever wish she was a gay man?.... Cos I sure as hell do.... that was my thought for the day.... I'm so sick of being a STRAIGHT WOMAN!!!


In fact, I've known this for a long time... I'm actually a gay man trapped in a woman's body, not even joking... who the f*ck am I?? Hmmmm... there is definitely no such thing as fixed gender, fixed sexuality, fixed identity... at least not in my realm of existence, b*tch! ... Calm down... it's all going to be OK.....just be a straight female for the rest of your life and you'll be OK.....no.... I want to be a gay man in a straight female's body. Is that too much to ask? I don't like how society says a woman should be such and such ... and if you're a woman who wants to be a gay man, you're somehow "MENTALLY ILL"....If I told my future employer that I'm a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body, do you think they'll give me a job? NO! That's the kind of world we live in, people. 

Why is it that I can only have relationships with straight men, huh? No gay man is going to want to be in a relationship with a straight female... and no straight man is going to want to be in a relationship with a gay man trapped in straight female's body. And I definitely do NOT want to be in a relationship with no FEMALE.

I think there needs to be a reassessment of gender/sexuality categories... straight man, gay man, straight female, gay female, transgendered gay man, transgendered gay female... but what about us gay men trapped in straight female bodies, or those lesbians trapped in straight male bodies? Huh?..... Oh my gosh.... I should just make life easier for myself and just accept my heterosexuality and female gender identity.

Maybe I'll only be able to be in a relationship with a lesbian in a straight man's body... I don't want to be with a bisexual man because I'm not 100% bisexual. I'm more like 99% liking men and 1% liking females.... but only for the cuddles.

WHY is it such a taboo to talk about this?

I had a friend who was a gay man trapped in a masculine female's body (people always mistook her for a transexual) , and she got so much abuse her whole life that she had serious gender identity problems. She died this year... but do you know what was one of the last things she said to me?... she said, "I just want to be comfortable in my gender, the gender that I supposedly am, i.e. female"... and do you know what I said to her?... I said "girl, you are a female, don't care what those haters tell you, we are all people, and we're all different, no one fits into the "ideal" norm for their gender. People try to be super masculine or super feminine, but no one really is"

She was an amazing woman, and like me, she was a gay man trapped in a straight female body. And she never got her head round that. But you know what, I am NOT going to let it get me down like she did. You know what, this world is full of narrow minded idiots who think the personality of a person is totally in line with how they look on the outside. Yes, I look female. Yes, I am treated like a female... but I sh*t you not, I've got more balls than most of those men out there who think they can hate on anyone who's different. 

All you haters, you need to open your eyes. Thank you. 

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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:19/02/2011 7:29 AMCopy HTML

Whoa!

I can only say that people of different orientation/sexuality/whatever are deserving of our compassion along with everyone else!  Bigotry and intolerance of all kinds is most unfortunate, and people with those attitudes need to awaken.

There is a gay guy I have as a friend on facebook.  He has been on the forum here.  I used to know him from years ago when he was a young man, and I didn't know he was gay.  I can see the difficulties he has faced, as he left the RF some time back, and has strong Christian beliefs.  He has had a struggle reconciling his beliefs and identity with attitudes from people in the church, but I think he has found a group of Christians who have been very supportive.

Seeing people's faults and differences (or rather, not seeing past them) is a kind of blindness.  Its sad but many religious communities seem to foster such attitudes.


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
LoveBombedOut Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:19/02/2011 2:17 PMCopy HTML

 What I really don't understand is how can different religions condemn homosexuality when people are clearly born gay, it's a biological thing, not a choice... I've heard, "oh, God only condemns sex between men or between women, not homosexuality itself", but that seems equally unfair. It's like putting a starving man in front of a big pile of hamburgers and expecting him to not reach out and take a bite, then condemning him if he does.

In the past, when I used to believe in the Bible, although I had no disdain for gays, I loosely accepted that homosexuality was an aberration, an error, a symptom of some sort of deep rooted psychological trauma, but I was clearly an idiot for thinking that way, because it's been scientifically proven that gay men are biologically different than straight men, and likewise for lesbians. 

It seems that these attitudes people have against gays stem, at least partly, from religion. Now... how can any religion claim that homosexuality is morally wrong when (a) these people are consenting adults and (b) they're not hurting anyone else or disrupting society in any way, they just want the freedom to be themselves. I can understand why religions condemn such things as lies, murder, adultery, because these things hurt people. But how does homosexuality actually deviate from the axiom, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

I think religion can sometimes be a positive thing for the individual who chooses to follow such path, and that's their free choice to live their life a certain way. But to expect others to also follow that path "for their own good" even if it clearly isn't for their own good, or to dismiss people who do not want to follow that path as being "blind", is just wrong. 

I think religion fosters a fear of being oneself, a fear of deviating from the accepted "norm", a fear of what's different. It almost seems to be a denial of exploring ones personality, in order to feel safe and accepted within ones religious community. 

I mean, if I ever wanted to shave all my hair off, get facial piercings and wear a pink feather boa to church, how do you think I'd be viewed? If they knew me, they'd be shocked and think I was attention seeking. If they didn't know me, they'd look at me with pity, thinking "oh, poor lost soul, she clearly needs the Lord"... And it's this attitude that "if you look presentable on the outside, you're a better person on the inside" that I really despise. 

I think we should all embrace our inner freak :-)
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:19/02/2011 4:03 PMCopy HTML

See below.  smiley12
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
prezy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:19/02/2011 9:55 PMCopy HTML

Hi LoveBombedOut. I have found a couple of holes in your line of thought re: homosexulity. By saying its OK because thats the way they are born could also apply to those whos sexual preference is children. It is harder for them to change than a homosexual. Same could be said about violent people. Also that its scientific fact that they are different. There have been studies that have different findings. My understanding is the most expensive US study found it was a form of mental illness. The report has been hushed because if homosexuality is an illness that means a cure is possible and that is just way too politically incorrect for the current social view regardless of how acurate the findings are! Food for thought anyway, and thanks for sharing your opinions.
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Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:19/02/2011 11:00 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Rob.

Homosexuality was identified as a psychological disorder, with an identifiable psychopathology, in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Volume(s) 1 (DSM I), 2 (DSM II), and 3 (DSM III), published by the prestigious American Psychiatric Association. The classification was eventually removed when the DSM IV was produced (in 1994). In other words, for decades homosexuality was considered, and treated, as a 'disorder' rather than as a part of the 'natural order'. Note that this position was propagated by psychologists and psychiatrists the world over, and not simply by 'loony right-wing fundamentalist Christians'.

(In introducing this information I'm not attempting to promote one view over competing views. I'm simply pointing out a 'scientific' fact that often goes completely unnoticed or unconsidered in discussions of this sort.)

The subject of 'gender identity' as opposed to 'sexual identity' can often be a perilous one for discussion, as it tends to polarise people into one of two opposing camps. Important from my own perspective, Christian orthodoxy makes a distinction between homophilia (attraction to someone of one's own sex) and homosexuality (the physical act of consummating the attraction). The former isn't condemned by Scripture as being sinful, whilst the latter clearly is. Moral absolutes.

Now before anyone accuses me of being 'homophobic' an important caveat: I have several gay and transgender friends and acquaintances, people who have been good friends of mine for years.

Good morning, LBO.

What I really don't understand is how can different religions condemn homosexuality when people are clearly born gay, it's a biological thing, not a choice... According to whom? I've heard, "oh, God only condemns sex between men or between women, not homosexuality itself", but that seems equally unfair. It's like putting a starving man in front of a big pile of hamburgers and expecting him to not reach out and take a bite, then condemning him if he does. It's actually no different to putting a heterosexual man (or woman) in front of people of the opposite sex and expecting him/her to control his/her sexual appetites. You might even be interested to discover that Paedophilia apologists have been arguing along precisely the same lines as you've just promoted for homosexuality. They've been saying, 'hang on, I was born this way', and 'for me to act differently is to act against nature', etc.

In the past, when I used to believe in the Bible, although I had no disdain for gays, I loosely accepted that homosexuality was an aberration, an error, a symptom of some sort of deep rooted psychological trauma, but I was clearly an idiot for thinking that way, because it's been scientifically proven that gay men are biologically different than straight men, and likewise for lesbians. Actually, you'll find that it hasn't been 'scientifically proven' at all. What has been established is that gay men often display similar brain patterns to heterosexual women, and lesbians similar patterns to heterosexual men. No 'gay gene' has yet been identified, and no 'biological difference' conclusively established.

It seems that these attitudes people have against gays stem, at least partly, from religion. Now... how can any religion claim that homosexuality is morally wrong when (a) these people are consenting adults and (b) they're not hurting anyone else or disrupting society in any way, they just want the freedom to be themselves. I can understand why religions condemn such things as lies, murder, adultery, because these things hurt people. But how does homosexuality actually deviate from the axiom, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? From a biblical perspective, 'morality' isn't determined or established by human consent. Biblically-speaking, what is 'moral' or 'immoral' is determined by God.

I think religion can sometimes be a positive thing for the individual who chooses to follow such path, and that's their free choice to live their life a certain way. But to expect others to also follow that path "for their own good" even if it clearly isn't for their own good, or to dismiss people who do not want to follow that path as being "blind", is just wrong. Only if the concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' are individually determined. If they are 'moral absolutes', then just the opposite is 'true'.

I think religion fosters a fear of being oneself, a fear of deviating from the accepted "norm", a fear of what's different. It almost seems to be a denial of exploring ones personality, in order to feel safe and accepted within ones religious community. Indeed. Religion practised for its own sake will very often result in such behaviours.

I mean, if I ever wanted to shave all my hair off, get facial piercings and wear a pink feather boa to church, how do you think I'd be viewed? If they knew me, they'd be shocked and think I was attention seeking. If they didn't know me, they'd look at me with pity, thinking "oh, poor lost soul, she clearly needs the Lord"... And it's this attitude that "if you look presentable on the outside, you're a better person on the inside" that I really despise. If this is what you truly believe, then I can only conclude that you've not visited the sorts of churches that I have. There are places where I've preached barefoot to congregations who couldn't give a tuppence for external appearances, and then there are congregations where I've worn the obligatory suit and tie. It's all about context.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 12:44 AMCopy HTML

 Thanks for your replies guys... Interesting thoughts...

Prezy, i'm not sure if you could compare homosexuality with paedophilia... that's a big jump. They're both about sexual preference, but one involves shared consent, and the other is effectively rape and abuse... which I think we would all agree is wrong. 

And Ian, your views are always going to be different to my views because we have different underlying assumptions. I know that from a Biblical perspective, morality isn't about human consent... there are moral absolutes, set by God... but unless I have evidence that God gave inspiration to the authors of the Bible, then I can't know if these moral laws really are absolutes, and not just man's ideas.

The thing about a heterosexual man controlling his appetite is different to a gay man controlling his appetite, because according to the Bible, gays must never have sex, whereas heterosexuals can have as much sex as they want within marriage. There's a big difference in what God is asking: (a) don't have sex ever, or (b) only have sex within marriage. 


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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 1:18 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, LBO.

Prezy, i'm not sure if you could compare homosexuality with paedophilia... that's a big jump. They're both about sexual preference, but one involves shared consent, and the other is effectively rape and abuse... which I think we would all agree is wrong. Nope. Sex with children under the age of consent, i.e. 16 years in this country, is classed as paedophilia, so it's not always about pre-pubescent children. And there are quite a few reported cases each year of girls, and boys, consenting to having sexual relations with adults. Whilst this is qualified as 'Statuatory Rape', is it 'abuse' if the victim doesn't feel abused? The fact is it's wrong because our culture defines it legally as being wrong. In other words, it's 'o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-e-l-y' wrong, even if the minor believes it to be 's-u-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-e-l-y' right. And what abut those cases, thankfully rare, when consenting adults engage in incest? I suppose my point is that when you start down the 'slippery slope' of 'acceptablising' one or another form of aberrant sexual behaviour, you will inevitably encounter all sorts of philosophical 'relativities'.

In any case I think one important factor that stands behind your views is the Western penchant for individualism (i.e. it's all about 'me', or 'you' rather than being primarily about 'us'). Consequently, I think you've altogether neglected to consider the corporate responsibilities that each person in a given society has for the other members of that society and after all, the elevation of 'individualism' is a very, very recent sociological development.

And Ian, your views are always going to be different to my views because we have different underlying assumptions. Indeed. My views are based on God's self-revelation to humanity. What yours are based on, I wouldn't hazard to guess. I know that from a Biblical perspective, morality isn't about human consent... there are moral absolutes, set by God... but unless I have evidence that God gave inspiration to the authors of the Bible, then I can't know if these moral laws really are absolutes, and not just man's ideas. Whether or not Scripture is 'divinely inspired' is actually the end of your 'journey into God'. For whatever reason, you're treating it as if were the beginning. But more on this later, and in another thread.

The thing about a heterosexual man controlling his appetite is different to a gay man controlling his appetite, because according to the Bible, gays must never have sex, whereas heterosexuals can have as much sex as they want within marriage. And that's the important qualifier: 'within marriage'. According to Christian Scripture sexual union has always been limited to the marriage covenant, and then from the very beginning. And biblically-speaking marriage can only be a union between (1) a man, (2) a woman, and (3) God. There's a big difference in what God is asking: (a) don't have sex ever, or (b) only have sex within marriage. Philosophically the concept is no different to God saying, 'you can't ever just decide to kill another human being at your own whim and will.' In other words, (a) unlawful killing is always wrong, but (b) lawful killing isn't necessarily wrong.' The objective underpinnings to these moral questions is that it is God who determines what is morally acceptable; God who sets the rules.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 2:58 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Ian for clarifying my points. You said mostly what I was trying to say! A mate of mine who is a Christian was sharing a house with another Christian man that was a homosexual. He never practised sex and Im sure the Lord will bless him mightely for his abstanace. We all have things we need to do or not do and it wont always be easy, but it will always be easier than what Jesus did for us.
Thank you again Ian.
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Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 3:17 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Rob.

You're most welcome.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 4:20 AMCopy HTML

 What the hell was god thinking? He had nothing better to do then make people homosexual and tall and black and white and left handed and red heads and poor and rick and powerless and powerful and fat and women and men and other. Why does god do all this and still think that he can tell us who each one of us is and how to live?

There is a great desire to control other people more than we are able to control ourselves. There is some justification to be found some where be it from books or group think or just the five monkeys one banana/

How do we come to think that we are right and they are  wrong? How do we think that this is right and that is wrong?
There are almost seven billion people on this world and each one believe that they and the way they think and act must be the correct way and this is the way that you should  also act. Yes there are many exemptions. But it's still one against the rest till god returns.....or not. There is still no real proof that there is a god and there is less proof that he will return. But you can think this all you want as long as you leave others along to believe what they want to.
Live and let live.  And if you have a problem with that it's your problem. It's bad enough that most people are sheeple to the powers that be that we at the bottom must do the bidding of these powers and fight amongst ourselves.
I would say that we should all walk like Egyptian but in the end that country will be still in the hands of the powerful.
Live life as if this is the only one you have.  

http://www.naturalnews.com/high-fructose_corn_syrup.html. 


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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:20/02/2011 4:28 AMCopy HTML

*Sigh*

Still spruiking your nonsense, I see. I was hoping you were spent with your 'fluoride in Geelong's water' piece. But now I note that you're focusing your 'significant' intellectual energies towards, ummm ... corn syrup?!

Better start wrapping that tinfoil around your head a wee bit tighter, my friend, as you're presenting as being a kernel short of a cob!

Goose.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:21/02/2011 1:29 PMCopy HTML

Your comments Ian,

Philosophically the concept is no different to God saying, 'you can't ever just decide to kill another human being at your own whim and will.' In other words, (a) unlawful killing is always wrong, but (b) lawful killing isn't necessarily wrong.' The objective underpinnings to these moral questions is that it is God who determines what is morally acceptable;

So Ian, how then do you define 'lawful killing'?  Seems to suggest its deemed ok if man's laws or governing bodies say so.  So this over-rides God's commandment not to kill?

And then, have you considered that in many cultures today, 'fornication' is not illegal.  So then does this make it 'lawful fornication'?



Dog
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:21/02/2011 1:45 PMCopy HTML

Reply to prezy

 We all have things we need to do or not do and it wont always be easy, but it will always be easier than what Jesus did for us.


How is what Jesus did (die on a cross, only to come back to life 3 days later) harder than spending a lifetime as a gay person?

I don't agree when Christians say, "what anyone goes through can never be as hard as what Jesus went through for us". Firstly, if the Bible is correct, then Jesus *chose* to go through what he did, and he knew that he was going to rise from the dead. Some sacrifice! I don't think anyone would mind "laying down their life" if they knew they'd come back from the dead a few days later.

On the other hand, gays don't choose to go through life being gay, nor do they choose the inevitable suffering that such state can cause.

Christians seem to find it so handy to say "But Jesus went through much worse than any of us"... utter rubbish.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:21/02/2011 1:47 PMCopy HTML

 the above guest reply to Prezy was me, i forgot to log in
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:21/02/2011 1:57 PMCopy HTML

Dog, once more.

Philosophically the concept is no different to God saying, 'you can't ever just decide to kill another human being at your own whim and will.' In other words, (a) unlawful killing is always wrong, but (b) lawful killing isn't necessarily wrong.' The objective underpinnings to these moral questions is that it is God who determines what is morally acceptable;

So Ian, how then do you define 'lawful killing'? The taking of human life that is sanctioned by the State, and which doesn't serve personal ends. Seems to suggest its deemed ok if man's laws or governing bodies say so. 'Yep', that's what 'lawful' basically means. So this over-rides God's commandment not to kill? Not in the slightest, as God didn't say, 'thou shalt not kill'. What he said was, 'thou shalt not murder', which is materially different. Our Western laws, bye-and-large, dervive from the Decalogue. So too does our basic definition for what it is that constitutes 'murder'.

In my profession there are times and circumstances when I might lawfully kill another human being. However, should I unlawfully take another person's life, then I would expect to be tried for murder.

And then, have you considered that in many cultures today, 'fornication' is not illegal.  So then does this make it 'lawful fornication'? The point that I believe you've missed is a simple one: a government may pass a law which is binding upon a Christian believer legally, but which in spite of this may be morally unacceptable. A Christian would then seek to follow the guidance of Scripture, which informs us to act according to the 'higher' standard. Ergo, whilst 'fornication' may be legally permissable to all, it remains morally forbidden as an option to the Christian.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:21/02/2011 2:00 PMCopy HTML

LBO,

The salient feature that you've neglected to consider is this: in going to the cross, Jesus took upon himself our sin. Sinless God bore the sins of the world! Spending a lifetime as a gay man is trivial to the extreme, by way of comparison.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 3:00 AMCopy HTML


How is what Jesus did (die on a cross, only to come back to life 3 days later) harder than spending a lifetime as a gay person?

I don't agree when Christians say, "what anyone goes through can never be as hard as what Jesus went through for us". Firstly, if the Bible is correct, then Jesus *chose* to go through what he did, and he knew that he was going to rise from the dead. Some sacrifice! I don't think anyone would mind "laying down their life" if they knew they'd come back from the dead a few days later.

On the other hand, gays don't choose to go through life being gay, nor do they choose the inevitable suffering that such state can cause.

Christians seem to find it so handy to say "But Jesus went through much worse than any of us"... utter rubbish.

Hey LBO,

D'ya mind if I ask how long you were with RF?  I shouldn't be but I'm rather surprised at your very great lack of scriptural understanding about Jesus' sacrificial death.  Most Revivalists though don't fully appreciate, or don't think much about Jesus life, death and resurrection.  If asked, many (pastors included) would say Jesus died so that we could have the Spirit, being marked off as saved saints when tongues are evidenced.

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?  My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus cry of distress reveals how deeply he felt his separation from God as He took upon himself the punishment for the sins of all mankind.   No wonder darkness fell on the whole land before His death.   

Epi


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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 10:31 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

LBO,

The salient feature that you've neglected to consider is this: in going to the cross, Jesus took upon himself our sin. Sinless God bore the sins of the world! Spending a lifetime as a gay man is trivial to the extreme, by way of comparison.

Blessings, Ian


Yeah, but really... 'big deal'. He seemed to cope with bearing the sins. I mean, it stressed him out heaps, for sure, but it didn't kill him... until he let the mob whip and crucify him. Obviously people have suffered more and longer, and for less chivalrous reasons as Jesus'. I've no yard stick for the pain and hassle taking on all the 'naughty' sins that we were all so guilty of. Is it like Superman when he flies around the world and gets uber-stressed because he can hear all the crimes happening, but gets frustrated because he can't help out everyone?

Of course, Jesus is 'true', apparently, but Jesus could fix all the 'sin' problems, by this mysterious sacrifice and sin-bearing, which lasted a few days. Yeah, my ignorance is definitely showing, and I'm sure there are a dozen books that could be recommended to clear my naive views on the subject. On the surface though, it certainly IS a mystery. Sinless god became a sinner for a short period of time, and then undid it, and suffered for us when he would probably have 'rathered' be sunning himself on a beach in some better universe he'd created previously.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 11:30 AMCopy HTML

Mothy,
I think your view runs along the lines of my post on the 'What makes you believe the Bible is the Word of God' thread similar in part to what I was trying to express. Some things are really hard to comprehend. What are the 'mechanics' of the "nether world" will remain a mystery perhaps forever, well when it comes down to human understanding i.e.
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 11:45 AMCopy HTML

Pete,

The salient feature that you've neglected to consider is this: in going to the cross, Jesus took upon himself our sin. Sinless God bore the sins of the world! Spending a lifetime as a gay man is trivial to the extreme, by way of comparison.

Yeah, but really... 'big deal'. He seemed to cope with bearing the sins. I mean, it stressed him out heaps, for sure, but it didn't kill him... until he let the mob whip and crucify him. Obviously people have suffered more and longer, and for less chivalrous reasons as Jesus'. I've no yard stick for the pain and hassle taking on all the 'naughty' sins that we were all so guilty of. Is it like Superman when he flies around the world and gets uber-stressed because he can hear all the crimes happening, but gets frustrated because he can't help out everyone? I understand that it's your way to be irreverent when dealing with the gravest of issues. However, very occasionally you tread quite close to overstepping the mark.

Of course, Jesus is 'true', apparently, but Jesus could fix all the 'sin' problems, by this mysterious sacrifice and sin-bearing, which lasted a few days. Yeah, my ignorance is definitely showing, and I'm sure there are a dozen books that could be recommended to clear my naive views on the subject. On the surface though, it certainly IS a mystery. Sinless god became a sinner for a short period of time, and then undid it, and suffered for us when he would probably have 'rathered' be sunning himself on a beach in some better universe he'd created previously. If Jesus isn't 'true', then life is largely purposeless: you will live, you may even suffer a bit before you die, and then you moulder away in the grave until noone remembers that you ever existed. But if Jesus is 'true', then to be perfectly frank, I think you probably have considerably more to worry about, my friend.

Ian
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 12:35 PMCopy HTML

Well that clears up all my confusion.

I've just rephrased the same questions and statements I've made many times before on the forum and off, and I've never got an answer other than, 'It just is, OK!'. If it came down to blind faith in the inconceivable then one may as well pick any religion to believe in. If by overstepping the mark means I've offended you by my candid thoughts then I apologise for making light of your beliefs. If by overstepping the mark you fear that I'm tempting Mr God to send some serious electricity my way, then I'll have to admit that I'm not really worried because I'm not entirely sure that he works like that, if he exists. I honestly don't know, although I lean in favour of such a belief, but I don't feel as though I should start going to church and getting married in order to make 'him' happy and not kill me when I die. This brain is all I've got to work with, and ironically it'd be the one he gave me that fails to grasp what I should be doing and believing.

And if I lived my life worrying about all the 'ifs'... If China attacks... if there'll be an earthquake... if there's a Jesus... if there's this god or the other... then I would be sitting in a bunker with foil on my head. If Jesus isn't true then life was what it was, a handing of the baton to the next generation, then I'll die happy knowing I did the best I could. If Jesus is true and I didn't jump through the correct hoops in order to trigger his salvation from sin scheme for me, then I'll have to live in eternal hell marveling at the craziness of the whole thing.

I still think Christianity is neat and all. It's just not a logical thing unless you prescribe to certain beliefs.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 2:38 PMCopy HTML

 Oh goddamit... I feel like I'm outside the principal's office about to get a reprimand... and yes, that still actually happens to me at work.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:22/02/2011 10:23 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Pete.

I've just rephrased the same questions and statements I've made many times before on the forum and off, and I've never got an answer other than, 'It just is, OK!'. I seriously doubt that I've ever responded to your honest inquries in such a flippant way. If it came down to blind faith in the inconceivable then one may as well pick any religion to believe in. True. If it came down to 'blind' faith, then one religion is as good as another. However, when what's required is faith that's both informed by the facts and is 'reasonable' according to logical criteria, Christianity must clearly be the religion of choice. If by overstepping the mark means I've offended you by my candid thoughts then I apologise for making light of your beliefs. If by overstepping the mark you fear that I'm tempting Mr God to send some serious electricity my way, then I'll have to admit that I'm not really worried because I'm not entirely sure that he works like that, if he exists. The cynic in me suggests that, instead of continuing to promote the facade of agnosticism on the issue of God, perhaps you should acknowledge that you made your choice on the matter years ago? I honestly don't know, although I lean in favour of such a belief, but I don't feel as though I should start going to church and getting married in order to make 'him' happy and not kill me when I die. That's naught but a 'cop out', bloke. If the Christian God is 'true', and assuming for the moment that Scripture accurately reflects and records his will, then it simply won't do for you to say, 'I honestly don't know what he requires of me'. The 'plea of ignorance' is one option that simply isn't available to you. 

This brain is all I've got to work with, and ironically it'd be the one he gave me that fails to grasp what I should be doing and believing. It's not your brain that's preventing you from 'doing' and 'believing' as you should. It's your ego (and perhaps the odd appendage or two). You know perfectly well what God requires; you're just not prepared to do it at this point.

And if I lived my life worrying about all the 'ifs'... If China attacks... if there'll be an earthquake... if there's a Jesus... if there's this god or the other... then I would be sitting in a bunker with foil on my head. If Jesus isn't true then life was what it was, a handing of the baton to the next generation, then I'll die happy knowing I did the best I could. Do you honestly believe you've done the 'best' that you could? If Jesus is true and I didn't jump through the correct hoops in order to trigger his salvation from sin scheme for me, then I'll have to live in eternal hell marveling at the craziness of the whole thing. I'm fairly confident that when you stand before him to face his judgment, Jesus will remind you that consequences follow from choices, just as 'night' follows 'day'.

I still think Christianity is neat and all. It's just not a logical thing unless you prescribe to certain beliefs. Then I reckon we clearly understand something different to be inferred by the word 'logical'.

Blessings, dude.

Ian
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 12:32 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Epios



Hey LBO,

D'ya mind if I ask how long you were with RF?  I shouldn't be but I'm rather surprised at your very great lack of scriptural understanding about Jesus' sacrificial death.  Most Revivalists though don't fully appreciate, or don't think much about Jesus life, death and resurrection.  If asked, many (pastors included) would say Jesus died so that we could have the Spirit, being marked off as saved saints when tongues are evidenced.

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?  My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus cry of distress reveals how deeply he felt his separation from God as He took upon himself the punishment for the sins of all mankind.   No wonder darkness fell on the whole land before His death.   

Epi



Epios, 

i was only in the RF for a few years. Prior to that, I was attending a mixture of churches for several years, so I know the difference between how the RF view Jesus' sacrificial death compared to the orthodox view. I'm not reeling off the beliefs of any church, I'm sharing the way I personally see it. 

Jesus felt the separation from God. Big whoop! If the Bible is true and Jesus is part of the Godhead, then  he would have known this from the start. If Jesus is God, then this would be part of his plan, the way He chose to design the universe. If so, then he can't complain when it comes to the crunch and he has to go through with it. 

If God didn't want to have to die for the sins of mankind, if it was so terrible an experience, he should have designed the universe differently, so that he wouldn't have had to go through that. I mean, after all, he can do anything, right? 




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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 12:55 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, LBO.

I thought I'd introduce my 'own two bob's worth' into your conversation with Epi.

Jesus felt the separation from God. Big whoop! A very big 'whoop' indeed, actually, when you understand Trinitarian theology. But what Jesus 'felt', however, was so much more than simply 'separation' from God, his Father. What he experienced on the cross was God's wrath directed towards him personally. Abandonment. Despair. Humiliation. Uncertainty. If the Bible is true and Jesus is part of the Godhead, then he would have known this from the start. I think it would be helpful for you to review Paul's letter to the Philippians (my favourite book of Scripture), and what it has to say about Jesus 'emptying' himself in embracing human form. Whilst there are a few 'kenotic' theories doing the 'rounds', they hold in common that Jesus elected to forgo certain attributes of his deity, one of them being omniscience. If Jesus is God, then this would be part of his plan, the way He chose to design the universe. Indeed it was. However, God becoming incarnate in reality, rather than simply positing about it in theory, would no doubt have been an 'eye-opening' experience for him. And I doubt it would've been an altogether pleasant experience, certainly not towards the end. If so, then he can't complain when it comes to the crunch and he has to go through with it. But he didn't complain (see Acts 8:32). As Paul wrote, 'he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross' (Phlippians 2:8).

If God didn't want to have to die for the sins of mankind, if it was so terrible an experience, he should have designed the universe differently, so that he wouldn't have had to go through that. I mean, after all, he can do anything, right? Except to be untrue to his nature. God elected to create us with the capacity to choose. With choice comes consequences, and not simply for us.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 1:24 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Indeed it was. However, God becoming incarnate in reality, rather than simply positing about it in theory, would no doubt have been an 'eye-opening' experience for him.

So there is a virtual side to God that even to him there was an “unknown”?

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 2:24 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

Indeed it was. However, God becoming incarnate in reality, rather than simply positing about it in theory, would no doubt have been an 'eye-opening' experience for him. So there is a virtual side to God that even to him there was an “unknown”? 'Unknown' is probably too strong a word to describe the experience of God 'becoming flesh'. Consider the following, by way of an altogether imperfect analogy: I suppose what Jesus experienced would be akin to you or me suddenly being able to fly unaided. We might be able to imagine the physical sensation that accompanies flight, but the actual experience would no doubt be a little different. I know this is true for my initial foray into free-fall parachuting. I certainly understood the theory, and by virtue of ground-training I was practised in the mechanics, but I can assure you that the sensation I experienced in stepping off the ramp of the DHC4 for the very first time was greater than I anticipated.

Now posit a limitless God embracing limited human flesh; 'experiencing' our frailities, passions and appetites.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 3:42 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

An excellent analogy (yours).  Yes, I can relate to that also, my experience taking possession of the controls of the aircraft and actually taking off and flying for the very first time after hours simulating with a chair, of all things, in the lounge room.

Imagine actually meeting Him face to face when that time arrives, "Now posit limited human flesh embracing a limitless God" Though hopefully it won’t be limited by then.

 

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 10:14 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Epios, 

i was only in the RF for a few years. Prior to that, I was attending a mixture of churches for several years, so I know the difference between how the RF view Jesus' sacrificial death compared to the orthodox view. I'm not reeling off the beliefs of any church, I'm sharing the way I personally see it. 


LBO,

Good that your RF exposure wasn't for too long and that you are able to see the difference.

You really have to begin at Genesis, Exodus etc etc and God's covenant relationship with his people Israel, but to cut a long story short the gospel of John 1 : 1 - 18 gives an overview, especially verses 10 - 14  :-


"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him the world did not recognise him.  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.  Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, born of God."  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.  We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."  (NIV)

Jesus ministry didn't end with his crucifiction; the risen Christ continues to illuninate the minds of those who call him Lord. His people remember his love and commemorate, celebrate and give thanks (Eucharisteo) and will continue to do so until his return.

Epi


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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 10:45 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Hi, Ralph.

Now posit a limitless God embracing limited human flesh; 'experiencing' our frailities, passions and appetites.

Blessings, Ian

Are you talking only about the time on the cross, when he 'experienced' being in a human body? 'Cause for the most part he was in a human body, but able to walk on water, generate wine from water and many other not-human feats. Did his 'super powers' (excuse the comic book analogy again) not help him? Did his omnipotence not give him any ability to know what it would have felt like before jumping off the plane?'. Was the man-god taken aback? did something surprise him?
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 10:47 AMCopy HTML

 You can feel free to take these as the rhetorical questions of a mad man btw.
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Re:Are you a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body?

Date Posted:23/02/2011 11:31 AMCopy HTML

Pete,

Are you talking only about the time on the cross, when he 'experienced' being in a human body? Given that Jesus was about 36 years old when he was crucified, clearly the answer to your question is 'no'. He became incarnate to identify with those whom he came to save; consequently, he truly lived a human life: struggles, highs, lows and all, but then without sinning. 'Cause for the most part he was in a human body, but able to walk on water, generate wine from water and many other not-human feats. Did his 'super powers' (excuse the comic book analogy again) not help him? Jesus worked miracles through the power given him to do so by the Father, as when incarnate, the second Person of the Trinity subjected himself to Divine limitation. This is why he could state, for example, that he didn't know the timing of his Second Coming, but the Father only. Importantly, and to respond to your final comment, I doubt that you'd be able to find a single reference to a miracle in the New Testament, that Jesus performed for his own benefit (prior to his resurrection). What he did, he did for others. Did his omnipotence not give him any ability to know what it would have felt like before jumping off the plane?'. 'No'. As I mentioned in an earlier post, in 'taking on the form of a servant' Christ temporarily (i.e. for 36 years out of eternity) set aside attributes rightfully his, such as omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. Any revelation given him was given by his Father. Was the man-god taken aback? did something surprise him? I imagine the psychic shock that he faced when he became the bearer of all human sin surprised him. I imagine the physical shock that he experienced when whipped and then crucified also surprised him. I imagine that he was taken aback when deserted by his friends, denied by Peter and scorned by Israel.

You might like to consider that knowing that something is going to happen doesn't lessen the personal shock when that thing does happen.

You can feel free to take these as the rhetorical questions of a mad man btw. Mad? 'No', I don't think so.

Blessings,

Ian
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