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Sea Urchin
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Date Posted:07/01/2009 1:51 AMCopy HTML


As the topic title suggests, there is some confusion (and NOT only in my mind it seems) over whether we are 'once saved, always saved' or whether we can 'lose our salvation'. 

The discussion began in the Chatbox with Ian asking me the question - and then offering the answer that 'once saved always saved'.  I don't want to copy & paste the whole convo here, so would suggest that, if anyone is interested they read through the convo which began in the afternoon of Tues 6th Jan.

I'm still struggling with the concept that (eg) even though a believer (one who accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour) walks with Christ for a time and then 'backslides' eventually denying Jesus as their saviour, can still be saved.  I just don't see how this can be! 

Last night I read Matthew 7:21-23 where "not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". It appears that even those who ARE believers, still may not be 'saved' if they are not doing the Father's will.

(thanks again Ian for 'making me think' you know how hard it is for me, ha ha)

Other people have made comments in the chatbox also and it seems that I'm not the ONLY one confused - so some further clarification would be beneficial as well as input from others.

Urchin
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 2:15 AMCopy HTML

Urchles,

Methinks you not only don't understand the issue theologically, but you've also misrepresented my position in what you've written.

As the topic title suggests, there is some confusion (and NOT only in my mind it seems) over whether we are 'once saved, always saved' or whether we can 'lose our salvation'.
Two points: first it isn't a case of 'once saved, always saved'. The issue, rather, is 'if saved, then saved'. The second point follows on from the first. If saved, then how could one possibly become 'un-saved'? Can you or I undo the work of the cross? Personally, I don't think so.

The discussion began in the Chatbox with Ian asking me the question - and then offering the answer that 'once saved always saved'. Actually, 'no' I didn't. "Once saved, always saved" is a parody of my position. My position is that which appears, above.

I'm still struggling with the concept that (eg) even though a believer (one who accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour) walks with Christ for a time and then 'backslides' eventually denying Jesus as their saviour, can still be saved.  I just don't see how this can be! And I doubt that I could've been much plainer in what I stated at the 'Chatbox'. Backsliding is a T-E-M-P-O-R-A-R-Y occurrence in the life and walk of the (saved) believer. If a person denies Christ, then a person clearly isn't a Christian; consequently, such a one isn't saved. And I'd suggest that you can't 'see' how all this 'works' (boom, boom) because you fellowship in a denomination that, ultimately, teaches salvation through human striving, and not salvation by God's grace alone (sola gratia), through faith alone (sola fides), in Christ alone (solus Christus), as revealed by Scripture alone (sola scriptura), to the glory of God alone (soli Deo gloria). These represent the five so-called 'solas' of the Reformation. Consequently, they underpin what it is to be a Protestant Christian. Are you a Protestant Christian, Urch. Or are you something else?

Last night I read Matthew 7:21-23 where "not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". It appears that even those who ARE believers, still may not be 'saved' if they are not doing the Father's will. That particular passage has nothing to do with saved believers. It has to do with those who believe themselves righteous by virtue of 'signs' and 'miracles'. Does any of this sound familiar?

Other people have made comments in the chatbox also and it seems that I'm not the ONLY one confused - so some further clarification would be beneficial as well as input from others. Well, you're all former Revivalists, are you not, with Pentecostal leanings? Consequently you've all been raised on a heterodox diet of semi-Pelagianism: you might outwardly confess salvation by grace, but if you don't do certain behaviours, then you think you can forfeit what you once had. In short, 'bah! Humbug!'.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 3:23 AMCopy HTML

Urchles,

Methinks you not only don't understand the issue theologically, but you've also misrepresented my position in what you've written.

Urch: Correct, I don't understand the issue theologically but I certainly did not intend to misrepresent your position and aplogise if I have done so.

As the topic title suggests, there is some confusion (and NOT only in my mind it seems) over whether we are 'once saved, always saved' or whether we can 'lose our salvation'.

Two points: first it isn't a case of 'once saved, always saved'. The issue, rather, is 'if saved, then saved'. The second point follows on from the first. If saved, then how could one possibly become 'un-saved'? Can you or I undo the work of the cross? Personally, I don't think so.

Urch: OK " íf saved, then saved" it is then! Could one not become 'unsaved' by (at some later stage since becoming saved)  denying what Christ did on the cross? THIS is the whole crux of the matter for me - surely their salvation is forfeited at this point?

The discussion began in the Chatbox with Ian asking me the question - and then offering the answer that 'once saved always saved'.

Actually, 'no' I didn't. "Once saved, always saved" is a parody of my position. My position is that which appears, above.

Urch: Again, I apologise that I thought that's what you were saying.

I'm still struggling with the concept that (eg) even though a believer (one who accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour) walks with Christ for a time and then 'backslides' eventually denying Jesus as their saviour, can still be saved.  I just don't see how this can be!

And I doubt that I could've been much plainer in what I stated at the 'Chatbox'. Backsliding is a T-E-M-P-O-R-A-R-Y occurrence in the life and walk of the (saved) believer. If a person denies Christ, then a person clearly isn't a Christian; consequently, such a one isn't saved. And I'd suggest that you can't 'see' how all this 'works' (boom, boom) because you fellowship in a denomination that, ultimately, teaches salvation through human striving, and not salvation by God's grace alone (sola gratia), through faith alone (sola fides), in Christ alone (solus Christus), as revealed by Scripture alone (sola scriptura), to the glory of God alone (soli Deo gloria). These represent the five so-called 'solas' of the Reformation. Consequently, they underpin what it is to be a Protestant Christian. Are you a Protestant Christian, Urch. Or are you something else?

Urch: Well it seems that I'm a Protestant Christian then! I do NOT believe that we are saved by works, by human striving or by anything WE can do apart from what Jesus has already done. I am not trying to be argumentative either, I'm just trying to understand the issue more clearly. You state that Edge Church believe that 'salvation is through human striving' but that is not what's preached nor what I've learnt in several of the Bible study courses I've attended -  but I will clarify further by sitting down with one of the pastors.

Last night I read Matthew 7:21-23 where "not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". It appears that even those who ARE believers, still may not be 'saved' if they are not doing the Father's will.

That particular passage has nothing to do with saved believers. It has to do with those who believe themselves righteous by virtue of 'signs' and 'miracles'. Does any of this sound familiar?

Urch: Those who 'think' they're saved by virtue of what THEY DO may not 'be saved' at all - even though they call Him Lord?
Is that correct?

Other people have made comments in the chatbox also and it seems that I'm not the ONLY one confused - so some further clarification would be beneficial as well as input from others.

Well, you're all former Revivalists, are you not, with Pentecostal leanings? Consequently you've all been raised on a heterodox diet of semi-Pelagianism: you might outwardly confess salvation by grace, but if you don't do certain behaviours, then you think you can forfeit what you once had. In short, 'bah! Humbug!'.

Urch: Yes, all former revivalists including YOU bloke! I can't answer for others re 'pentecostal leanings' and I don't know nothin' bout " heterodox diets of semi-Pelagianism"  (but sounds like a good diet to 'lose weight')

I don't believe that a 'believing Christian' can forfeit what they once had - UNLESS they consciously CHOOSE to turn away from God - and that's the point I'm trying to clarify, people sometimes DO just that.  Can a person turn away from God and STILL expect to be saved - I don't believe so!

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 4:08 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

Could one not become 'unsaved' by (at some later stage since becoming saved)  denying what Christ did on the cross? THIS is the whole crux of the matter for me - surely their salvation is forfeited at this point? Sort answer, 'no'. If God's grace can be resisted, then quite simply, God would not be God. He would cease being the 'Potter', and he would cease being omnipotent.

I do NOT believe that we are saved by works, by human striving or by anything WE can do apart from what Jesus has already done. Sure you do. After all, you're on the record as saying that one can forfeit one's salvation.

You state that Edge Church believe that 'salvation is through human striving' but that is not what's preached nor what I've learnt in several of the Bible study courses I've attended -  but I will clarify further by sitting down with one of the pastors. Just how naive are you? Here's the answer via a question: does the Edge teach that one can lose one's salvation? (i.e. the position that underpins AoG/ACC soteriology. I know this to be the case, as I've had to teach it) If one can lose one's salvation, then one must do things to ensure that such does not occur. In effect, human works and striving.

Those who 'think' they're saved by virtue of what THEY DO may not 'be saved' at all - even though they call Him Lord? Is that correct? 'Yep'. And you know this can be the case, as such was your experience in Revivalism! Yes, all former revivalists including YOU bloke! My former quip was very carefully qualified, girlie: with Pentecostal leanings! Unlike you, I don't have any of those.

I don't believe that a 'believing Christian' can forfeit what they once had - UNLESS they consciously CHOOSE to turn away from God - and that's the point I'm trying to clarify, people sometimes DO just that. Guess what? In spite of what you may believe about the issue, you're wrong. Can a person turn away from God and STILL expect to be saved - I don't believe so! Which is stronger, God's gracious will, or our human rebellion? You decide.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 6:07 AMCopy HTML

In my opinion, once God commits Himself, he doesn't uncommit Himself.
 
But Sister Urch I would advise you to have a closer look at the CONTEXT of what it means " to enter the Kingdom of God."  - There is a present context and there is a future context and joining it all together is the faithfulness of God.
 
And one day you will say: "thank you Father for being so lovingly kind and patient to someone like little ole me.." 
 
-- So don't fall for that Rev Centre lie that you can forfeit your salvation because it is just that - a lie from the enemy.
 
Have a closer look at the parable of the ninety nine sheep and the one sheep that went astray and carefully note the process that takes place
 
blessings sister
 
Eric
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 6:31 AMCopy HTML

These are the (cut & pasted) views of various denominations on whether salvation can be 'lost'

Assembly of God - Assembly of God Christians believe salvation can be lost. "The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost." AG.org

Baptist - Baptists do not believe salvation can be lost. "All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end." SBC

Lutheran - Lutherans believe salvation can be lost when a believer does not persist in the faith. "... it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us ... A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith ... by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation." LCMS

Methodist - Methodists do believe salvation can be lost. "God accepts my choice ... and continues to reach out to me with the grace of repentance to bring me back to the way of salvation and sanctification." UMC

Presbyterian - With reformed theology at the core of Presbyterian beliefs, the church teaches that a person who truly has been regenerated by God, will remain in God's stead. PCUSA, Reformed.org

Roman Catholic - Catholics do believe salvation can be lost. "The first effect of mortal sin in man is to avert him from his true last end, and deprive his soul of sanctifying grace." CE Final perseverance is a gift from God, but man must cooperate with the gift. CE

Anglican/Episcopalian - "Holy Baptism is full initiation by water and the Holy Spirit into Christ's Body the Church. The bond which God establishes in Baptism is indissoluble." Book of Common Prayers (BCP) 1979, p. 298.

Gosh, I thought it was only 'pentes' that were wrong - it seems that many other denominations are wrong also! 


Anglicans: if baptised by water and the Holy Spirit then the bond which God establishes is indissoluble
Presbyterians: a person who truly has been regenerated by God, will remain in God's stead.
Baptists: All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end."

Catholics: man must cooperate with the gift of final perserverance
Methodists: God accepts our choice but continues to offer the grace of repentance to bring us back to salvation.
Lutherans: possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture warns us ..but may be restored to faith 
AOG: disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost.

Three denominations state that salvation cannot be lost, the Anglicans, Baptists and Presbyterians - two of them (B & P) speak of believers that REMAIN in the faith but doesn't mention those that may turn away as it is presumed that all will remain true believers and endure to the end.

More research to do... Urch

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 6:51 AMCopy HTML

The Presyterian  cut and paste is pretty close to the knuckle ... but instead of "researching" what different denominational positions are and instead try researching some good commentaries. One that might be a little heady for you but neverthelessis worth the read is "The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross " by Leon Morris.

blessings

eric   
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 7:50 AMCopy HTML

Hi Urch,

Just looked in and your post caught my attention.  I'm not fully clear on this one either, but know God does not withdraw salvation.  Just looking at Hebrews 6:2  where Paul speaks of "laying again the foundation of repentance" If a Christian were to lose salvation he/she would have to be regenerated again and again.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) Paul says "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance since they are crucifying once again the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt"

Could Paul be speaking hypothetically here, I wonder.  For those who were TRULY SAVED (God knows the heart) and enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit and the goodness of the word of God and understand the powers of the age to come.  Surely it would not happen!

In Hebrews 10:26-31 though Paul says :-  "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement................How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God...............

God does not withdraw salvation but for the person who rejects the gift a fearful expectation awaits on the day of judgement.

Paul in his epistles seems to refer to salvation as past, present and to come - an ongoing experience to the ultimate salvation at the end. 

Hope you can make something of this.

God Bless

Epi
 
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 10:31 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

You need to (1) learn how to interpret your sources better, and (2) learn your history of Christian doctrine better given that you're wildly off-base and off-track with your cut-and-pastes. Oh, and I didn't limit being wrong on this subject to simply the Pentes, it's that I specifically mentioned Arminian theology being at the root of their error. It's more the case that I focussed on the semi-Pelagian Pentes given that you are one.

By the way, neither the Roman Catholic (which is Augustinian) or Lutheran (which is a modified form of Augustian) churches are Arminian. And, of course, it was Augustine who refuted the heretuc Pelagius, whose ideas lie at the heart of the "saved by human works/striving" nonsense.

More study required.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 11:49 AMCopy HTML

And one day you will say: "thank you Father for being so lovingly kind and patient to someone like little ole me.."  - So don't fall for that Rev Centre lie that you can forfeit your salvation because it is just that - a lie from the enemy
    __________________________________________________________
Thanks for your kind words Eric, I'm using very big font for your very old eyes (ha ha)

I thank God each and every day that He is so lovingly kind and patient, gracious and merciful to me. You see though, I don't believe that I can personally forfeit my salvation because it means to much to me - as I said my Father is so good to me why would I not want to please Him in everything I do?  His grace is not to be taken as a licence to do whatever I please, but to please Him.

I understand that if a believer 'sins' 'slips' or 'backslides' that God still saves that person, but what I don't understand is that should a person turn away from God completely they are STILL saved.  That's the bit that I find hard to understand and it seems that many of the various denominations have differing views also.

Yes, I know the parable of the 99 sheep and I know how much our Father loves His precious children but I will do as you suggest and study it more closely.

God bless you Eric,
Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 11:53 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

Actually, there aren't that many opinions in Christendom at all; there are basically two. I do note; however, that in your response to Eric you've appealed, yet again, to the concept that your salvation, ultimately, resides with you. Funny enough, I thought it resided with God.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 11:57 AMCopy HTML

I'm praying for more understanding

God be in my head,
and in my understanding.
God be in mine eyes,
and in my looking.
God be in my mouth,
and in my speaking.
God be in my heart,
and in my thinking.
God be at my end,
and at my departing.

Urch

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 12:41 PMCopy HTML

Oh, and I didn't limit being wrong on this subject to simply the Pentes, it's that I specifically mentioned Arminian theology being at the root of their error. It's more the case that I focussed on the semi-Pelagian Pentes given that you are one. By the way, neither the Roman Catholic (which is Augustinian) or Lutheran (which is a modified form of Augustian) churches are Arminian. And, of course, it was Augustine who refuted the heretuc Pelagius, whose ideas lie at the heart of the "saved by human works/striving" nonsense.
       __________________________________________________________________________________________

Considering I had no idea what the terms 'Arminian, Augustian, semi-Pelagian' mean, thought I'd better read up a little.
(another cut & paste) NOT my views, just a simple c & p for info;

Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought within Protestant Christianity based on the theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609)[1] and his historic followers, the Remonstrants. The doctrines' acceptance stretches through much of mainstream, evangelical Protestantism.

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Arminianism is most accurately used to define those who affirm the original beliefs of Jacobus Arminius himself, but the term can also be understood as an umbrella for a larger grouping of ideas including those of Hugo Grotius, John and Charles Wesley, and others. There are two primary perspectives on how the system is applied in detail: Classical Arminianism, which sees Arminius as its figurehead, and Wesleyan Arminianism, which sees John Wesley as its figurehead. Wesleyan Arminianism is sometimes synonymous with Methodism. In addition, Arminianism is understood by some of its critics to also include Semipelagianism or even Pelagianism, though proponents of both primary perspectives vehemently deny these claims.

Within the broad scope of Church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as rivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over details of the doctrines of divine predestination and salvation

Time to study history for me it seems,

Urch

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 9:46 PMCopy HTML

Urch I'd be asking Ian if he can recommend or refer you to a good Bible College where you can learn by distance and at your own pace in a program that best fits your lifestyle..

... and 2009 is about to get underway.

blessings

Eric
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:07/01/2009 9:56 PMCopy HTML

ps:

It appears someone with the name "saint" is having a go at Sea Urch about the person of the Holy Ghost.  Well "saint" if you would like to discuss the matter, you are welcome to start a new thread if you think you are up to it..

blessings

Eric
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:08/01/2009 12:03 AMCopy HTML

The issue is that a regenerate person can't lose his/her salvation, irrespective of personal striving or the lack thereof. ("If we are believing and walking by faith in Jesus, how can we lose our salvation?")

 I was going to edit (howbeit the ‘action’ box doesn’t function again) and write it as “We can’t lose our salvation when it is not ours to lose; it is of God, a gift to us”.

   ______________________________________________________________________________

Yes Brolgs, I understand that we cannot lose our salvation IF as you said 'we ARE believing and walking by faith in Jesus'.  The point I struggle with is that EVEN IF we turn away from God we are still saved -do you see the difference?

Guess it's just too big for this little urchin brain to understand! Just have to keep asking the Lord to help me to understand.

Urch 

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 6:29 AMCopy HTML

I thank God each and every day that He is so lovingly kind and patient, gracious and merciful to me. You see though, I don't believe that I can personally forfeit my salvation because it means to much to me - as I said my Father is so good to me why would I not want to please Him in everything I do?


Yes Sister Urch. just one point before I disappear for a while. You have answered your question with "because it means too much to me" ....

and it was Jesus that put the value in your subjective statement in the first place.

Let's go back to the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve sinned and the narrative states: "And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the Garden. (Gen 3:8 ESV). But see Sister, A & E knew the presence of God and they were in fear of God for many reasons. One reason would be their accountability for their sin.

But when we come to the cross, the need for fear is gone with Jesus bearing that due accountability for us on our undeserving behalf. It becomes a case of God is now wooing us to come to Him through Jesus and He reveals His irresistible love which becomes and is so unconditional ( agape) drawing us just to Him. If you like, Jesus has now become your lover and you now live just to know His love.. Now sister if you had not know that Agape of His, you would walk away but now that His agape has been revealed to you, you are irresistibly being drawn just to be in His presence.

And in my opinion that is our prime role in our stewardship of the Gospel. To allow that irresistable love of God flowing from the cross to reach and touch the lives of others through our lives...

blessings

Eric

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 11:56 AMCopy HTML

And in my opinion that is our prime role in our stewardship of the Gospel. To allow that irresistable love of God flowing from the cross to reach and touch the lives of others through our lives...
     _______________________________________________________

Eric,
Amen to the above statement - you're such an inspiration on this forum! And yes, I understand about Jesus being the lover of my soul. Believe me it astounds and humbles me and the tears flow when I think of the relationship I'm now able to have with Him after neglecting Him for so many years previously.

I'd really like to state that I DO NOT believe that a Christian 'loses' their salvation because of sinning/backsliding etc - after all who of us do not commit sins? Whilst they may not be big 'sins' necessarily, sin is sin. I know that I've been guilty of not placing my total trust in God at times - leaning instead to 'my own understanding' and this is as much a sin as stealing/adultery or whatever.

The thing I don't understand (and I obviously need to learn more about grace) is when a Christian STOPS being a believer and turns his back on God - he remains saved. That's what I struggle to accept, as much as I'd like to be able to. But I will continue pressing in with prayer and reading scriptures and I'm sure that it will be revealed to me in time. I've researched an awful lot of information about the two opposing views.  

Perhaps that's what's 'so amazing about grace' - that no matter how far we fall, it's never too far from our loving Father's arms.

God bless you Eric

Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 12:41 PMCopy HTML

"In the hopes of promoting greater thought and eventual discussion, let me suggest this: Hebrews 10:26-31 teaches the REALITY of judgment for apostasizing Christians, which will take place at the judgment seat of Christ, but it does not teach the FINALITY of judgment which is hell. In short, the judgment faced by the Christian will result in a loss of REWARD, but not in a loss of SALVATION. Put another way, the very same fire (i.e. judgment) that will TEST believers will CONSUME unbelievers. Getting a proper handle on this passage requires that one understands the intent of the OT passages quoted and alluded to."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Oh dear, after now reading the whole of chapter 10 I am really confused!  Of course I don't have the knowledge to properly understand the  passages, but it appears to me (this is where I may be misunderstanding) that a believer can have been saved then turned away and thereby 'trampled on the Son of God'. 

NLT Verse 26 '..if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins'
Verse 35 'So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. remember the great reward it brings you. 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will received all that He has promised.'
Verse 38 ' And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away. 39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.'

Does this mean that ONLY the faithful will be saved - that some will 'lose' their salvation by turning away? Or do they remain 'saved' but have to face the wrath/punishment of the living God? 

Have I misunderstood what Ian has been saying all along regarding ' IF saved, then saved'.  Is it ONLY those that ARE saved that remain saved, but those that turn away from God are not or have never BEEN saved? These verses, particularly v38 seems to indicate that only the faithful will be saved and those who turn away from God, go to their own destruction ('lose' their salvation?) Quesions, questions!

As I said, I may be (and most likely AM) still missing the point by the proverbial mile!

Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:11/01/2009 1:40 AMCopy HTML

For Sister Urch.

Here is a beautiful link that definitely will uplift you.

Misty Edwards


enjoy


Blessings Eric..

.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:27/01/2009 12:18 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Eric for that beautiful song, and here's one for you (if I inserted the link correctly, that is!)

http://www.imeem.com/christomlin/music/pb8ytPz7/chris_tomlin_i_will_rise/


God bless, Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:27/01/2009 4:41 AMCopy HTML

 Hello Urch,

My 2c worth...

Oh dear, after now reading the whole of chapter 10 I am really confused!  Of course I don't have the knowledge to properly understand the  passages, but it appears to me (this is where I may be misunderstanding) that a believer can have been saved then turned away and thereby 'trampled on the Son of God'. 

NLT Verse 26 '..if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins'
Verse 35 'So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. remember the great reward it brings you. 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will received all that He has promised.'
Verse 38 ' And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away. 39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.'

Does this mean that ONLY the faithful will be saved - that some will 'lose' their salvation by turning away? Or do they remain 'saved' but have to face the wrath/punishment of the living God? 
------------------
Urch, I beleive that the saved are saved, and the saved are faithful.  And the saved will also give an account of themselves.  Those that are saved cannot fully turn away - as the grace of God is irresistable.
-------------------

Have I misunderstood what Ian has been saying all along regarding ' IF saved, then saved'.  Is it ONLY those that ARE saved that remain saved, but those that turn away from God are not or have never BEEN saved?
---------
Pretty close to the Mark.  
--------

 These verses, particularly v38 seems to indicate that only the faithful will be saved and those who turn away from God, go to their own destruction ('lose' their salvation?) Quesions, questions!

---------------------
Well - if you lose your reward - that is reasonable destructing.


As I said, I may be (and most likely AM) still missing the point by the proverbial mile!

--------
You just seem to be stuck on the ones that turn away.  They are either saved or never have been, regardless of works or lack thereof.

Best regards,

Paul.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:27/01/2009 5:50 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Paul for taking the time to respond.

You said that "those that are saved cannot fully turn away - as the grace of God is irresistable".

OK, so everyone who comes to the Lord 'remains' in the Lord even if they turn away?

Also you said "You just seem to be stuck on the ones that turn away.  They are either saved or never have been, regardless of works or lack thereof".

I'm 'stuck' on this because if one believes that 'once saved always saved' then this means that EVEN IF a person turns away from God they're still saved. However, I see scriptures that indicate that this is not the case though. And I also see lots of exhortation to remain in the faith and to continue to the end etc
Verse 38 indicates that some WILL turn away?

Anyway, thanks for trying to help Paul

God bless, Urch

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:27/01/2009 10:06 PMCopy HTML

 Hello again Urch',

I was thinking about your question again on my drive home from work yesterday and thought I would have another go...

Here is what you state to be your problem:

I'm still struggling with the concept that (eg) even though a believer (one who accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour) walks with Christ for a time and then 'backslides' eventually denying Jesus as their saviour, can still be saved.  I just don't see how this can be!


Now - you have created this person above.  Let's call him Billy.

Now let's say that unsaved Billy represents being a Goat, and a saved Billy represents being a Sheep.  Billy needs to be either a goat or a sheep, ok?

Because you seem to have created Billy half sheep and half goat; ie, was saved but became unsaved.   We all know that there is no such an animal as a half sheep and half goat. 

So although there are many people out there that claim to be christians, they are either sheep or goats.  Saved or unsaved.

So Billy either attended church for a while but never came to saving faith ( probably because he was a pente) and therefore as he had no root in faith to endure any further RCI nonsense, left,  or Billy IS saved and has left the pente's to worship at a proper church.

Does that help?

Best regards Paul.




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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:28/01/2009 2:12 AMCopy HTML

 Hello Brolgs,

I appreciate what you have said, but I do have one question in regards to that.

Do you think that the salvation that that particulat scripture refers to is salvation from his circumstace or salvation of his soul?

Regards MrK.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:28/01/2009 1:36 PMCopy HTML

Once again, we see the bible demonstrated to be as clear as mud, with Christians collective heads spinning with the confusing and contradictory scriptures that you use to base your faith upon.

IF there is any substance in the christian faith at all, I can think of nothing in man's long history that is as misrepresented and misunderstood as Jesus and the bible.  And God is supposed to NOT be the author of confusion!


Dog.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:28/01/2009 8:39 PMCopy HTML

Dog,

Ho hum. It's funny how you keep maintaining that Scripture is "about as clear as mud", from your perspective, and yet for someone like me, it's "as clear as crystal". I'll ask you again: why is that, do you think? Might it have something to do with the fact that you haven't bothered gaining the skills and knowledge needed to bridge the various 'gulfs' that result from the fact of two thousand years separation between then and now (i.e. historical, cultural, linguistic, social factors, etc), whereas I have?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 1:12 AMCopy HTML

Now - you have created this person above.  Let's call him Billy. Now let's say that unsaved Billy represents being a Goat, and a saved Billy represents being a Sheep.  Billy needs to be either a goat or a sheep, ok? Because you seem to have created Billy half sheep and half goat; ie, was saved but became unsaved.   We all know that there is no such an animal as a half sheep and half goat.  So although there are many people out there that claim to be christians, they are either sheep or goats.  Saved or unsaved.
So Billy either attended church for a while but never came to saving faith ( probably because he was a pente) and therefore as he had no root in faith to endure any further RCI nonsense, left,  or Billy IS saved and has left the pente's to worship at a proper church. Does that help?
          ____________________________________________________________________________________

Hello Paul, does the above explanation help - sorry but no it doesn't!

Billy is just Billy, neither goat nor sheep to start with. Let me see if I understand this correctly then;

1) Billy comes to a saving faith in a 'proper' church - cos apparently that's the only way that poor old Billy can get saved,  doesn't matter how much he loves Jesus and lives for Him, unless he's in a 'proper' (which I take it means Anglican/Catholic/Baptist/Presb etc) church he's NOT SAVED?  Hope you can back that up with scripture for me?)

2) Billy is in the 'proper' church so all is going well, he is saved and walking with God for 10 years.

3) 'Silly' Billy gives in to temptation to have a love affair with the pastor's wife and they move in together (just a random example).

4) But it's all OK cos Billy is saved and he cannot 'forfeit' or lose his salvation? He decides that he wants to continue living with her and of course justifies it all in his own mind (as people do) so they go to another 'proper' church to fellowship. But it's all OK cos he cannot lose his salvation so he remains saved. And after all, he's not a pente, he's in another 'proper' church so it's all OK.

5) The only explanation is that Silly Billy was NEVER saved?

Therefore how does anyone KNOW 100% that they ARE saved when they may make bad decisions at some stage in the future and turn away from God?   hmmm....

Urch

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 1:30 AMCopy HTML

So Billy either attended church for a while but never came to saving faith ( probably because he was a pente) and therefore as he had no root in faith to endure any further RCI nonsense, left,  or Billy IS saved and has left the pente's to worship at a proper church.
  __________________________________________________________________________________________

So just to clarify then Paul,

1) a 'pente' cannot come to saving faith
2) a 'pente' can only come to saving faith if he 'leaves a pente church and worships at a proper church'

Kinda reminds me of many of the talks heard here in RF Adelaide ' we can only guarantee your salvation IF you remain in fellowship' (meaning, in Revival) 

Do you get my point?

Urch

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 1:35 AMCopy HTML

Urch, Consider this, the man in 1Cor. 5:1-5. Why was he handed to Satan? Ralph
           _______________________________________________________________________

Brolgs, why would you ask me?  Paul is asking you the question, not me.
"Do you think that the salvation that that particulat scripture refers to is salvation from his circumstace or salvation of his soul?"

Urch

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 2:35 AMCopy HTML

 Hello Urchin,

That comment on my last paragraph was meant as a joke, not to be taken too seriously - I'm sorry if you didn't find it that way.

For the record I do not think that all Pentes are unsaved. 

Your question:
"Therefore how does anyone KNOW 100% that they ARE saved when they may make bad decisions at some stage in the future and turn away from God?   hmmm...."

The same way that someone knows they are saved to begin with.  If they make bad decisions, it will be of a temporary set back but they are forgiven.  Do you think that some people in your examples should not be forgiven and continue their walk even if they did make a big mistake?

Regards Paul.







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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 3:04 AMCopy HTML

I know that God forgives and I know that Jesus took ALL of our sins upon Himself on the cross (including those we haven't even committed yet).  But (if we continue using our example) if Billy continued on in his sin (and justified his actions to himself) and chose to continue going to church, is he still saved?  Or is he 'forfeiting' his salvation by deliberately continuing sinning etc?

NLT Verse 26 '..if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins'

So what does verse 26 mean then?

And I apologise for my sarcasm about your comments re 'pente' and 'proper' churches etc. I've been made to feel (by a certain member) as though I'm not really a Christian at all because I choose to fellowship in a 'pig-sty' (a 'non-approved' church) so I guess I was a little touchy. Sorry about that!

Cheers, Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 3:07 AMCopy HTML

Paul, to clarify further, is an 'unrepentant' Billy still saved or only if he repents? Is he saved regardless of any of his actions or sins? Does he still have salvation but have less 'rewards'? 
Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 3:47 AMCopy HTML

Hello Urch'

"I know that God forgives and I know that Jesus took ALL of our sins upon Himself on the cross (including those we haven't even committed yet).  But (if we continue using our example) if Billy continued on in his sin (and justified his actions to himself) and chose to continue going to church, is he still saved?  Or is he 'forfeiting' his salvation by deliberately continuing sinning etc?"

NLT Verse 26 '..if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins'

So what does verse 26 mean then?

Urchin, Ian had already explained in the chatbox that this part of scripture is using sarcasm to get the point across.  It should not be then used as a stepping stone to prove the opposite of that point. 


"Paul, to clarify further, is an 'unrepentant' Billy still saved or only if he repents? Is he saved regardless of any of his actions or sins? Does he still have salvation but have less 'rewards'? 
Urch "


Ephesians 2:8-9: "It is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Best regards Paul.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 5:06 AMCopy HTML

Paul, to clarify further, is an 'unrepentant' Billy still saved or only if he repents? Is he saved regardless of any of his actions or sins? Does he still have salvation but have less 'rewards'? 
Urch


Urch, What do you think the answer to that is? brolga
 ________________________________________________________________________________________________

Brolgs, I hate to point out the obvious, but if I KNEW the answer to it, I wouldn't be asking the question. Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 5:18 AMCopy HTML

OK Paul, so whether we repent or not, we are saved.

I'll just have to accept that and not try to think of people who turn away from God as being 'unsaved'.

Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML

Paul, you're quite right - in light of Ephesians 2 we ARE saved by grace. 

So whether we repent or remain unrepentant, we cannot lose that salvation.  I guess that's reassuring for all those who have turned completely away from God as it means that there is absolutely nothing that we can do that can cause us to lose that salvation.

Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 7:07 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

I believe the bottom line is;
Accepting Jesus as our Savior is the basis for salvation, and rejecting our faith in Jesus appears to be a basis for losing our salvation.
Are we walking by faith at the moment we are about to stand before the Lord? when ever that may be.

Ralph

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 12:41 PMCopy HTML

Urch, I believe the bottom line is; Accepting Jesus as our Savior is the basis for salvation, and rejecting our faith in Jesus appears to be a basis for losing our salvation. Are we walking by faith at the moment we are about to stand before the Lord? when ever that may be. Ralph
         ______________________________________________________________________________________

No, apparently not Brolgs - if we are saved by grace (and not of ourselves) it would appear that we can never lose our salvation. So rejecting our faith in Jesus doesn't change that fact. I still haven't quite got it and I'm not 100% convinced that even though a person can 'reject' their faith they still remain saved. But what with both Ian AND Paul stating otherwise, I guess I need to think on it and pray about it still. 

Paul, I was reading the letters to the churches in the Book of Revelation (NLT) and noticed that there were those in the church in Sardis who were told "I know all the things you do and that you have a reputation for being alive - but you are dead.....Your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. v3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first. Hold to it firmly. repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief."  Then we hear about those who have NOT soiled their clothes with evil and they will be found worthy, their names never erased from the Book of Life, announced before my Father and his angels that they are mine.
But what of the others (those that didn't overcome?) - are their names removed from the Book of Life, are they denied before the Father and the angels?  Is the Book of Life a list of those who have 'made it' or does it contain ALL names? 

Urch
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 10:03 PMCopy HTML

 Hello Urch,

I could only give an opinion here as I would need to clear up my understanding ( or lack thereof ) of this particular scripture with my Anglican clergy to be 100% on the issue.  Previously we have stuck to the subject somewhat, and I have already well overdone myself here in this thread with my opinions on how Calvinist view Salvation.  But when the questions of the meaning of blocks of scripture are concerned I am not in the position to give you informed dialogue.  I respect proper theological study too much to cross that line, and respect those who have studied to the required level to be qualified to do so.  For me to go there it at my level of understanding would make a mockery of of that, and would make me like a Pente pastor.

Would you like me to ask my Anglican Clergy of this scripture and report? I would rather you seek out these answers for yourself. 

Best Regards,

Paul.


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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:29/01/2009 11:57 PMCopy HTML

 Hello Again,

From the Chatbox this morning were some very pertinent comments made by Ian.

Didaktikon: Escaped and Shoes. Unfortunately, far too many churches (notable among them being those of the Pente persuasion) make much of emotional appeals, and/or varying degrees of subtle through not-so-subtle manipulation, in order to achieve a 'conversion' 'effect'. Unfortunately, such shallowness invariably has negative effects, given that biblical repentance, based as it is on accurate understanding, rarely takes place under such circumstances. A shallow witness leads to a shallow 'faith' which leads to a shallow life. Consequently, many (if not most) of the people who 'turn' from their Christian 'faith' and become 'apostate', probably were never 'Christian' in the full sense of the word to begin with. Which, as I understand things, is still a topical point for some at the moment. Ian
30 Jan 09, 09:18
Didaktikon: Escaped and Shoes. So I return to a previous comment of mine: it's NOT a case of "once saved, always saved", but "IF saved, THEN saved." Ian
30 Jan 09, 09:20
misterkilometres: I can see how that is a more correct way of putting it.
30 Jan 09, 09:22
Escaped: Ian, once again, could'nt agree more.
30 Jan 09, 09:23
Didaktikon: MRK. 'Yes', the "once saved, always saved" tripe is actually a PARODY of the Reformed/Calvinist position. Ian

Regards Paul.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:30/01/2009 1:47 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

 

Perhaps I should have used the term “disown” him (Jesus). At times we are not faithful to him but he is ever faithful to us and his faith never fails.

If we look to once saved always saved (some use the term, “eternal security”) then it begs the question; why are there so many warnings in the Bible that imply we can loose (or more appropriately, ‘forfeit’) our salvation. Consider but a few passages that raise this question:

The parable of the sower and the seed, particularly the seed (believers) that fell on the rocks, they believed for awhile and fell away.

We received salvation by making a choice to accept Jesus, if we make a choice to disown him, he will also disown us (2 Tim.2:12)

Some words of Jesus…….

Remain in me and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be given you. Now if you obey my commands, you will remain in my love…….

Why is it so important for us to remain in him? These are conditions! Jesus is telling us to continually remain in an intimate, loving relationship with him and to obey what is written in the Bible.

This is just a sample, and the scriptures are full of warnings (I could write pages more), not to deny your position in Christ or you will forfeit your inheritance, even your salvation. It doesn’t matter how many sins you may commit on the way, your salvation is still secure as long as you keep the love of God and do not disown or deny Him.

By having this "eternal security" type doctrine, those whom we witness to will have the impression they go to heaven regardless of how they live in the mean time. 

 

Brolga

 

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:30/01/2009 1:54 AMCopy HTML

Hi Paul, it's OK, don't worry about asking your church about it for me. As you said, you'd rather me search out the answers myself so that's what I'll do.

And I've taken the 'not-so-subtle-hint' that I should just drop the subject here on the forum.

And in any case Ian has summed it up;

Many (if not most) of the people who 'turn' from their Christian 'faith' and become 'apostate', probably were never 'Christian' in the full sense of the word to begin with. (many, most, probably, kind of, maybe?) 

So, once again, thanks for taking the time to help.

Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:30/01/2009 1:09 PMCopy HTML

Didaktikon: Ralph. By the way, you were rather mistaken with what you had to share in the "OSAS" thread. Ian
30 Jan 09, 15:46
Didaktikon: Ralph. It's simply a case that if I attempted to correct every error that finds its way here, I'd get nothing else done :/ Ian
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:04/02/2009 12:18 AMCopy HTML

Didaktikon: Ralph. By the way, you were rather mistaken with what you had to share in the "OSAS" thread. Ian

 

Ian,

 

I had intentions to finish up and not go further, but I feel this is one of most serious issues that needs be clarified.

I for one am not convinced that one cannot, according to you, forfeit their salvation even though having once been saved.

It is plain to see that “if you are saved, you are saved” but I haven’t seen in scripture, (not for the lack of much searching and let us stick to scripture, not what the church, scholars or man’s philosophy, may or may not have “conceived” outside of that, over the years) anything to suggest one can now do what one wishes contrary to God’s commandments, i.e. stop believing and deny Christ, regardless of the frailty of the flesh or otherwise and NOT lose salvation.

I am aware that God will not relent on the thing he has accomplished for us, but if we believe we are saved now no matter what, why bother to continue in the Gospel and fellowship etc., when we could go out and serve the world instead.

Also I am aware that many of the scriptures on the subject are contextually different message but the implication of losing salvation is apparent even eschatological matters of salvation.

Ian, I am not trying to prove you are wrong, but where are the scriptures and explanations to confirm what you are saying is correct? Do I need to have more of an understanding of what salvation is about, do I not comprehend or something like so?  Unless you explain in scripture something to the contrary, I am not convinced you are correct.

 

Ralph.

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:04/02/2009 12:54 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

Your choosing to disagree with me, or even had you chosen to agree with me, is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact is, that you can't marshal a single point in defence of your views, that would stand up to close theological and/or exegetical scrutiny by me.

As it is, I've already thrown out enough 'hints' here, and on the 'Chatbox', to keep you busy for a few weeks doing research. Be content.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:04/02/2009 11:59 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Thanks for responding, I thought you had given me up as a lost cause. (Lol)

As I said, I feel this is too serious an issue to brush under the mat and not need to have proper understanding.
My work load at the school has diminished now holidays ended and can devote more time in the RTh library and study this particular subject.
Some recommended book/s on the matter would be appreciated, even an author would help. Again thanks.

Ralph

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:04/02/2009 9:27 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ralph.

Thanks for responding, I thought you had given me up as a lost cause. Not at all. It's simply the case that I find no joy in having to repeat myself time after time. I suppose it's my aversion to 'spoon-feeding' people again. As I said, I feel this is too serious an issue to brush under the mat and not need to have proper understanding. And who has been attempting to 'brush' this issue 'under the mat', so to speak? I find it remarkable that, for example, someone here would publicly claim that 'subtle' pressure was brought to bear for her to 'drop' the matter entirely. The claim, of course, is absolute nonsense, and is apparently little more than the transference of one person's inability to understand the significance of the information that was presented, into some sort of blame-worthy and 'nefarious' 'hidden agenda' of others! The fact remains that there has been significant information provided here that addresses the issue, and more than a few 'hints' for further study.

My work load at the school has diminished now holidays ended and can devote more time in the RTh library and study this particular subject. Sure. You do understand, don't you, that the position that I've presented here is the Reformed understanding on the subject? Some recommended book/s on the matter would be appreciated, even an author would help. Again thanks. I'd begin by suggesting that you first approach the librarian at RTC, and ask for a list of recommended works on the 'Ordo Salutis' generally, and on the subject of 'assurance' more specifically.

In closing, I note that certain of your comments from your previous post should have 'blipped' on your 'radar' given that they are inconsistent: It is plain to see that “if you are saved, you are saved”, and I am aware that God will not relent on the thing he has accomplished for us, both; however, immediately qualified with a 'but'. 'But' what, Ralph? Do you accept what you've claimed or don't you?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:04/02/2009 11:55 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Thanks for responding, I thought you had given me up as a lost cause.
Not at all. It's simply the case that I find no joy in having to repeat myself time after time. I suppose it's my aversion to 'spoon-feeding' people again.

 

I know what you mean.

As I said, I feel this is too serious an issue to brush under the mat and not need to have proper understanding.
And who has been attempting to 'brush' this issue 'under the mat', so to speak?.......

 

My comment here was solely directed at myself to drop the subject, but why should I? It only gives meat to the adversary!

My work load at the school has diminished now holidays ended and can devote more time in the RTh library and study this particular subject.
Sure. You do understand, don't you, that the position that I've presented here is the Reformed understanding on the subject?

 

Absolutely

Some recommended book/s on the matter would be appreciated, even an author would help. Again thanks.
I'd begin by suggesting that you first approach the librarian at RTC, and ask for a list of recommended works on the 'Ordo Salutis' generally, and on the subject of 'assurance' more specifically.

 

WILCO and thank you

 

Do you accept what you've claimed or don't you?

 

It is not settled in my mind as yet, is why I am contending on this issue only, in next few weeks or until it “clicks”.

 

Sincerely

Ralph H.

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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:05/02/2009 6:14 AMCopy HTML

Ian, you are reading something into my comments that was not there. I wrote in response to Paul's comment that he could ask his clergy for me or that he'd prefer to see me find out the answers for myself.

You stated ... "someone here would publicly claim that 'subtle' pressure was brought to bear for her to 'drop' the matter entirely. The claim, of course, is absolute nonsense, and is apparently little more than the transference of one person's inability to understand the significance of the information that was presented, into some sort of blame-worthy and 'nefarious' 'hidden agenda' of others!"

The 'subtle pressure' that you mentioned was not what I said. I said 'not-so-subtle-hint' (HINT - not pressure)
And I have never intimated that YOU were 'hinting' or exerting 'pressure' at all! You don't exert pressure, you just tell people that they're idiots, they don't know what they're talking about etc - that's what we all love about you, lol.

However, and I will say this at the risk of rebuke, it is not just me that finds the 'discrimination' that occurs here disturbing. There are constant innuendos that if one attends a 'pentecostal-type' church, one is mixing with swine and other such derogatory statements. These ARE your brothers and sisters, believe it or not! I often sit next to a lovely elderly man at church who attends his morning Anglican service each week but as they don't have an evening service he comes to the church I attend for the 5pm service. Is he not my brother, am I not his sister? Should I tell him that he should stop visiting the sty and eating with the pigs or perhaps that he should stay in his 'own' church, as we are not part of the Body? We ALL need to be careful that we don't lose sight of the real enemy - also known as the accuser of the brethren!

Re my 'understanding' or as you say my "inability to understand the significance of the information that was presented" I realise that I may have misunderstood what you said right at the beginning. I thought that if a believer stops believing and becomes 'apostate' they are no longer 'saved' - whereas I 'thought' you believed that they remain 'saved' regardless.

Your comment of "many (if not most) of the people who 'turn' from their Christian 'faith' and become 'apostate', probably were never 'Christian' in the full sense of the word to begin with" shows (I'm guessing?) that perhaps those who totally turn away from God were never saved as they are not Christians at all? It appears that these people were simply not Christians to begin with - although I'm not sure that this is what you believe, as you use the words 'many, most, probably'.

I do not need an answer from you or for you to 'address' me Ian, I certainly prefer to 'dwell in harmony' here on the forum. I believe that everyone is free to express an opinion here and to attend the church of their choice without fear of intimidation.

Regards, Urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Are we 'once saved always saved' or can we 'lose our salvation'?

Date Posted:06/02/2009 11:29 AMCopy HTML

Slightly off topic, but I just found this amusing...



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