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Date Posted:25/06/2009 7:03 AMCopy HTML

Having popped back into this forum after a couple of years away, I have been appalled to see what it has turned into. When first here I was able to speak with other revival centre survivors and have pretty reasonable  conversations.

Now I find it has turned into something else altogether. It is one thing to have an invited "expert" to refute the doctrine of tongues in a a bid to draw further people out of the revival mess.

It is another thing altogether to have said "expert" demean and abuse already abused people.

My time in the Revival Centre has left me with severe post traumatic stress disorder. God only know what it has left other survivors with.

I wonder if it is just always the case when you put a pack of humans together, one or two have to rise to what they believe is "the top". A position where it is okay to treat people badly because you think you have the right. A place where you thinkyou wield power, and at times you do because some others with no inner security of their own place you on a pedestal and then worship you.

Nothing gives us the right to treat other people badly. Not a degree in anything, not the fact we are holding a gun, or run a church. Why do any of us need to be abusers at all? Why would we even want to be? Haven't we been through enough already?

I thought the whole point of following Christ was to do things differently. Not need to be the best, not need to show how great we are, not need to be ego driven and glory in the worship of others. One of the reasons I no longer attend church is that I cannot find a group of humans that can rise above this tired old way of doing things.

Thank you to the people here with whom I have managed to have a reasonable conversation.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 4:26 AMCopy HTML

The whole point of coming out of a spiritually abusive church is to make sure we never allow ourselves to be treated in the same way again. It is beneficial for everyone who has come out of that kind system to have a good look at why they were taken in by it in the first place. God does not want us to be lorded over by anyone, but wants us to learn to seek out his word for ourselves.

If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves. We were never meant to be frightened into serving god out of fear and blind adherence to a bunch of rules. Rather we follow his commandments out of love and a desire to please him.

No one has the right to be heavy handed with us regarding the word of god. No one. All the years many of us endured that apalling treatment should be enough to teach us it was never what god had in mind. We have already been shown the hard side of god by the cold hearted revival centre oversight, but there is another side. We cry unto him abba, father. It is a spirit of adoption, of love and close relationship, not the cold distant god of the revival mess. We all have the same spirit to reveal to us the heart of god and the word of god.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 4:47 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves.

Wrong. God isn't interested in independent (or 'autonomous') adults, but interdependent ones. Similarly, the Scriptures don't exist for you to mine in support of your whim and will, but to point you in the direction of what God requires; his will.

We were never meant to be frightened into serving god out of fear and blind adherence to a bunch of rules. Rather we follow his commandments out of love and a desire to please him.

'Yes', but it's probably best to be sure that one is actually following his commandments to begin with, eh? Again, Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours, not mine.

No one has the right to be heavy handed with us regarding the word of god. No one.

True. Just as no-one has the right to interpret the meaning of the Word of God apart from that as received and taught by the Christian Church. Yet again, the issue is one of corporate interdependence and conformity, which stands in direct opposition to personal independence and non-conformity. Put simply, you don't have the right to "make the rules up" as you go along simply because you don't like the ones given you.

We all have the same spirit to reveal to us the heart of god and the word of god.

It's really all that simple, huh? I suppose your naive assumption of "equality" explains why so many people, yourself included, come up with "interpretations" of Scriptural passages that deviate markedly from what the biblical texts actually state. I suppose your position also explains why Christ gave the Church teachers?

Now could you please point out for me where Scripture supports your views on all of this?

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML


REPLY TO IAN

If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves.


Wrong. God isn't interested in independent (or 'autonomous') adults, but interdependent ones. Similarly, the Scriptures don't exist for you to mine in support of your whim and will, but to point you in the direction of what God requires; his will.

Whatever. It is pretty clear to me Ian that you are a legalistic whack job, and nothing anyone says will sway you from you neurosis on the subject. God does not want Stepford christians who plug into a mainframe. If that is what you offer in your orthodox church, that will be a firm NO THANKS. I will continue to pray for you. I suggest you get some kind of professional help for your need to control people. I will not be discussing your sick ideas any longer in public forum.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 5:40 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Still not prepared to accept the possibility that you're wrong, are you? And the fact that I continue to point this out to you clearly makes me a "legalist" in your eyes (I'd love for you to explain to me how adherence to God's requirements makes one a "legalist", by the way). Well, as I've challenged you to do in your private messages to me, if you think my position on this issue is wrong, and yours correct, then demonstrate as much from Scripture. Personal opinions count for very little with me, a robust Scriptural defence; however, counts a great deal.

In closing, you will continue to suffer both spiritually and emotionally, until you learn to accept that you don't have all the answers, and furthermore, that some of the answers to your problems don't lie within your current purview, experience or knowledge.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:09/07/2009 12:13 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Given that you apparently wish to continue the discussion, I've included your latest comments from your most recent "PM", and my response.

True. Just as no-one has the right to interpret the meaning of the Word of God apart from that as received and taught by the Christian Church. Yet again, the issue is one of corporate interdependence and conformity, which stands in direct opposition to personal independence and non-conformity. Put simply, you don't have the right to "make the rules up" as you go along simply because you don't like the ones given you.

Firstly Ian, if you think I am ever going to play the scripture game with you then you would be wrong. What is the point of me pointing out scriptures so you can then tell me they don't even mean what they mean, seeing you think you know what things mean better than everyone else. Raw humility there.

Given that God gave us Scripture to help guide our thinking and behaviour as Christians, then clearly it's to Scripture that we should turn when assessing such matters. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall you introducing a single Bible passage at any point thus far, in an effort to underpin or bolster your beliefs. Why? You claim to know Scripture well, you've very recently stated that you've been reading it since before I was born. That being so, you should be able to defend what you believe from the Bible readily enough, and you should be able to refute what I maintain from it as well. So this really has nothing to do with "raw humility" as you've put it, but everything to do with correctly handling and appealing to God's Word inscripturated. I suppose it's very much a case of "put up or shut up", really.

As for this other rubbish written above, what ARE you on about? You sound exactly like a revival pastor telling me that now the christian church has the copyright on the word of god in the same bombastic "we own the truth" way, only they can interpret it correctly blah blah blah. Did you learn nothing at all from that hellhole? Or did you only learn bad habits that you still have?

What I learned from my time in Revival was this: no-one has the authority to stand apart from the Church's deposit of truth, and maintain that Scripture can mean something for us today that it never meant for its original audience. I learned that the Holy Spirit is a corporate safeguard more so than he is an individual one, and consequently that no biblical passage is really open to a strictly private, or individual interpretation. I learned that God gave Scripture to the Church corporately, and not to you or me individually. I also learned that it's the hight of arrogance to believe that we can appropriate for ourselves "deeper spiritual truths" than what a given biblical passage means in its grammatical and historical context. In short, I've rid myself of the "bad habits" that you apparently still firmly hold to.

Unity is not uniformity Ian. Get that delusion out of your head. Conformity is not what Christ was about. If he had been a tidy little conformist he would not have ended up the way he did. For a smart man you seem to lack even basic common sense at times. God did not give us a brain so we could plug into a bloody organisation and be told what to think and how to think it. At some point you seem to have lost the capacity to be involved in the things of god without some kind of external structure.

Unity is achieved by conformity more than it is by uniformity. Each and every nerve, muscle and organ in a human body is united in the shared process of life. It's only when an individual part doesn't conform, that things start to go wrong. A pancreas, for example, doesn't function as a liver (i.e. "uniformity"), but it must function with the liver (i.e. "conformity") if the body is to work properly. So too the Christian Church. You, however, believe yourself to be an "organ" that doesn't need the entire body in order to "live". But cut off an arm, and it dies. The body; however, can go on living without the limb, but the limb won't survive without the body. Try reading what Paul had to say about the matter in the famous 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 section, then rethink your current views.

Further, the entire New Testament is completely silent about the so-called "lone Christian". They simply didn't exist. Christianity is a faith based on interdependance rather than independance. It's corporate rather than individual, unified rather than fragmented. For a "believer" to be cut-off from the Body of Christ was viewed in New Testament times as being a sign of the punishment and rejection of the person by God! It's for this veryreason that excommunication was the most dire form of discipline that the Church could engage in. For a person to "self-reject" was simply unthinkable! Yet you apparently believe it to be a perfectly valid option. Consequently, you'd like to think that you're identified with the "Church Universal" but without being identified with the "Church Local". Why? Where's the Scriptural defence for such a notion?

As for interdependence. Hmm. We come into this world alone, and we leave it alone. In the interventing time we have people around us. Some stay, some go. The personal circumstances of my life have shown me that apart from god, we are alone Ian no matter what bullshit we tell ourselves otherwise.

Well your experience certainly hasn't been my experience.

Christians are "nice" people. As long as you live the way they think you should be living. But make an unwise or in their eyes ungodly decision and watch them scatter like ashes in the wind. Very few christians in my experience have very deep love for their brethren when things get tough, or they think they might be tainted by another person's sin. THAT is one of the main things that keeps people out of the church. How often to you talk to unchurched people about their opinions of the church? You live steeped in it and you see it a certain, in my view, skewed way.

This leads me to wonder how many "true" Christians you have personal acquaintance with? From what you've shared thus far, your sole, defining experience of the "Christian" Church has been Pentecostal. Forgive me for pointing out that such is hardly the "centrist" position on what the Christian Church is, or should be! Quite the contrary, Pentecostalism is just about as "individualistic" and "narcissistic" an approach to Christianity as one can get! But to answer your second question, I talk to "unchurched" people all of the time, and my experience has been that a little true information about Christianity and the Church goes an awfully long way to countering the effects of a lot of false information. I'd also suggest that given your very limited experience of the matter, your view of the Christian Church is the one that's skewed, not mine.

Being a christian is not about living by a set of rules Ian. I don't understand why you have not let that revival centre belief go. You are completely bound by it.

Being a Christian is about following Jesus. Being a member of a cricket team is about following the requirements of the cricket team captain. Being a member of a rowing eight involves working with the other men or women in the boat, and listening to the cox and the stroke. Being a member of a service organsiation involves meeting the requirements of that organisation and working to achieving its agenda and common goals. But when it comes to Christianity, you reckon it's only about what you're prepared to doand accept, huh? Please excuse me for saying so, but that's a pretty weird view.

I have come to realise though that you are as brainwashed by your beliefs as people in revival are about theirs. Nothing anyone ever says is going to pry that bible, and your complete belief you know it better than anyone else away from you. Seems like it has become your identity now, this "knowing the truth" and dispensing it to the great unwashed.

"Brainwashed"? I'm comfortable that I've spent more than enough time working through the pros and cons of what I believe and why I believe such to be true. But you are correct in one respect, no-one is going to be capable of prying away my trust in the Bible, unless they can establish facts that I wasn't aware of, or that I haven't considered, and that completely undermines my belief system. Then I'll listen.

I hope for your sake that at some point you allow god to soften your heart, and come to an understanding that god is love, not rules.

And I hope for your sake that in your reading of the Bible you come to the realisation that God's love isn't unconditional,that it's actually dependant upon obedience. Christianity remains on Christ's terms, not yours.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:09/07/2009 10:32 PMCopy HTML

And I hope for your sake that in your reading of the Bible you come to the realisation that God's love isn't unconditional,that it's actually dependant upon obedience. Christianity remains on Christ's terms, not yours.

Dear oh dear oh dear Ian. You poor man. And this is what you want to drag people out of revival for. More joyless, loveless dry religion. Why can you not see it is more of the same? Salvation is a free gift. Romans 5. God's love conditional? So now it's obedience instead of speaking in tongues? Praying for you. Hard.

And Ian I said I didn't want to discuss this in public any longer. No means no. Clearly you glory in this stuff so much it doesnt work for you without an audience.

You need to understand Ian that those of us who have been out of revival for a long time and have dealt with it are no longer able to be manipulated by guilt, shame or fear. Really trusting in the grace of god dissolves those things when one finally understands christianity is not a three ring circus where we have to jump through the right hoops to earn god's approval.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:10/07/2009 1:32 AMCopy HTML

 As a parent I have unconditional love for my children, i.e. I will continue to love them even if they do wrong. I will try to set the right example at all times for them to learn by. I still expect, and will forever expect, certain minimal forms of behaviour and respect from my children, which we all would agree is morally justified and our right. Is this not the same as God? We have some rules, we are not entirely lawless and without boundaries, such as thou shall not kill etc.
cultivation leads to cultevasion -
don"t reap what they sow!
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:00 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Clearly you're confused. Revivalism was about obedience to men. Christianity is about obedience to God. To improve your understanding on the subject, I'd recommend that you turn to Scripture to read what it has to say about (a) salvation, (b) obedience and (c) God's perspective on the two.

You might wish to begin by reviewing the conditional statement in John 14:15 once more, and then reflect on the implications of how this fits with Hebrews 5:9.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:40 AMCopy HTML


Clearly you're confused. Revivalism was about obedience to men. Christianity is about obedience to God.

The kind of christianity you are talking about is administered by men like you who think they understand the word of god better than their underlings. You think it is some kind of divine gift passed to a select few (all men no doubt) through time for the elect such as yourself to beat the rest of us to death with because only you have the correct interpretation of it. Only you and the rest of your well studied mates can tell the rest of us how it is meant to be interpreted in your mind.

Newsflash, you are all just people Ian, just like the rest of us. Just as sinful, just as human and in just as much need of the free gift of salvation and mercy as the rest of us.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Clearly you're very confused! When have I ever said that I wasn't in need of God's mercy and salvation? Just one example would do. Furthermore, if you reckon that I claim to have the only "correct" interpretation of Scripture, then could you please tell me what John 14:15 and Hebrews 5:9 properly means?

How about it?

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:02/08/2009 12:25 PMCopy HTML

This is from the book Healing Spiritual Abuse, by Ken Blue.

The Pharisees set themselves up as rulers and judges of the people so as to create a certain type of religious community. A leading characteristic of this community was its preoccupation with purity. The Pharisees were rigid and obsessive about physical and moral cleanliness. Jews who conformed to their purity code were considered members of society in good standing. The Pharisees barred from the community those who did not or would not conform. Their power to rule on who was in and who was out is made clear in John 12:42-43. Here we see that many Jewish leaders believed in Jesus but would not admit it for fear that the Pharisees would excommunicate them from the synagogue. The Pharisees' power to decide who was in and who was out was their power to abuse.

A significant point of conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees was his attack on their purity laws. He went out of his way to break these rules publicly and to teach against them. This had the effect of breaking down the religious-community boundaries which the Pharisees had so carefully constructed. They wanted to be the gatekeepers, controlling who was accepted and who was rejected. Jesus let everyone, even prostitutes and tax collectors, into his new community - a fellowship that was outside the Pharisees' control. No wonder they hated him.

Personally, I see way too many parallels between the way some Christians behave with regard to religious control and the way the Pharisees behaved. People who want to have control over others for ANY reason are to be avoided at all costs as far as I can see.

There are those who, like the Pharisees, believe they have the right to decide who is in and who is out of the body of christ. They will take any scripture they can find, twist it, turn it and and serve it upon toast if it proves their point. They want the power, and they believe they own it. From my point of view these people need a good dose of spiritual and psychological conselling to deal with the fact they have a control problem. What they don't need is another silly religious organisation to let their twisted idea of who they think are run amok.

I often ask these people, could you sit in the back of the church for at least 2 years and not try and tell other people how to live? Most of them could not conceive of such a thing, because they really believe god has called them to tell the rest of us how it SHOULD be done.

You mix perfectionistic tendencies with a real desire to please god, and you often end up with a spiritual meglomaniac. Think Lloyd Longfield and his many clones. Moving this kind of behaviour into orthodoxy does not make it any more acceptable, or any more spiritually healthy.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:02/08/2009 12:56 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

You've missed the point by the proverbial mile. Again. This isn't an issue about "control", or "gate-keepers" for the faith or any such nonsense. At it's heart the issue concerns professing "Christians" deciding that Scripture isn't intended to be in any sense authoritative in the moderating of one's beliefs, ethics and practices. Furthermore, this is an issue about professing "Christians" seeking to
completely reinvent "Christianity" in one's own image: individualistic, separatist, unforgiving and spiritually sterile. What this is is a simple comparison and contrasting between biblical Christianity, and what apparently passes as "Christianity" for you.

But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:02/08/2009 1:27 PMCopy HTML

You've missed the point by the proverbial mile. Again. This isn't an issue about "control", or "gate-keepers" for the faith or any such nonsense.

It is for those of us who have beem abused by revival Ian. You think you are the gatekeeper of who is in and out of the body of christ. More than once you have decided for god whether I am in or out. You are a typical gatekeeper.

But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.



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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:02/08/2009 10:07 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

You think you are the gatekeeper of who is in and out of the body of christ. More than once you have decided for god whether I am in or out. You are a typical gatekeeper.

Actually, you decided for yourself not to be "in" the Body of Christ when you chose to completely separate yourself from it. Scripture knows nothing of the "lone Christian". However, if you believe otherwise, then you might try to demonstrate as much from the Bible.

But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.

I know this because I can, and have, read your extended comments to this effect in the CBox. They're as plain as the sour look on your face.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 2:39 AMCopy HTML


Actually, you decided for yourself not to be "in" the Body of Christ when you chose to completely separate yourself from it. Scripture knows nothing of the "lone Christian". However, if you believe otherwise, then you might try to demonstrate as much from the Bible.

Rubbish. I don't go to church. Big deal.

And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.

I know this because I can, and have, read your extended comments to this effect in the CBox. They're as plain as the sour look on your face.

Don't have a sour look. Spend most of every day laughing. Just because you see one facet of my life, odesn't mean you see my whole life. You have judged me unworthy Ian, and you know you have.

Any chance the words "Sorry Galien for judging you, labelling you, calling you a crap christian, telling you that you know nothing about the bible, that you are not a christian (and by inference that god does not know, love or acknowledge you) sorry for making an already traumatised person like you feel worse" coming out of your mouth?


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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 2:45 AMCopy HTML


 

The Wemmicks

by Max Lucado

     The Wemmicks were small wooden people. Each of the wooden people was carved by a woodworker named Eli. His workshop sat on a hill overlooking their village. Every Wemmick was different. Some had big noses, others had large eyes. Some were tall and others were short. Some wore hats, others wore coats. But all were made by the same carver and all lived in the village.

And all day, every day, the Wemmicks did the same thing: They gave each other stickers. Each Wemmick had a box of golden star stickers and a box of gray dot stickers. Up and down the streets all over the city, people could be seen sticking stars or dots on one another.

The pretty ones, those with smooth wood and fine paint, always got stars. But if the wood was rough or the paint chipped, the Wemmicks gave dots. The talented ones got stars, too. Some could lift big sticks high above their heads or jump over tall boxes. Still others knew big words or could sing very pretty songs. Everyone gave them stars.

Some Wemmicks had stars all over them! Every time they got a star it made them feel so good that they did something else and got another star. Others, though, could do little. They got dots.

Punchinello was one of these. He tried to jump high like the others, but he always fell. And when he fell, the others would gather around and give him dots. Sometimes when he fell, it would scar his wood, so the people would give him more dots. He would try to explain why he fell and say something silly, and the Wemmicks would give him more dots.

After a while he had so many dots that he didn't want to go outside. He was afraid he would do something dumb such as forget his hat or step in the water, and then people would give him another dot. In fact, he had so many gray dots that some people would come up and give him one without reason.

"He deserves lots of dots," the wooden people would agree with one another.

"He's not a good wooden person."

After a while Punchinello believed them. "I'm not a good wemmick," he would say. The few times he went outside, he hung around other Wemmicks who had a lot of dots. He felt better around them.

One day he met a Wemmick who was unlike any he'd ever met. She had no dots or stars. She was just wooden. Her name was Lulia.

It wasn't that people didn't try to give her stickers; it's just that the stickers didn't stick. Some admired Lulia for having no dots, so they would run up and give her a star. But it would fall off. Some would look down on her for having no stars, so they would give her a dot. But it wouldn't stay either.

'That's the way I want to be,'thought Punchinello. 'I don't want anyone's marks.' So he asked the stickerless Wemmick how she did it.

"It's easy," Lulia replied. "every day I go see Eli."

"Eli?"

"Yes, Eli. The woodcarver. I sit in the workshop with him."

"Why?"

"Why don't you find out for yourself? Go up the hill. He's there. "

And with that the Wemmick with no marks turned and skipped away.

"But he won't want to see me!" Punchinello cried out.

Lulia didn't hear. So Punchinello went home. He sat near a window and watched the wooden people as they scurried around giving each other stars and dots.

"It's not right," he muttered to himself. And he resolved to go see Eli.

He walked up the narrow path to the top of the hill and stepped into the big shop. His wooden eyes widened at the size of everything. The stool was as tall as he was. He had to stretch on his tiptoes to see the top of the workbench. A hammer was as long as his arm. Punchinello swallowed hard.

"I'm not staying here!" and he turned to leave. Then he heard his name.

"Punchinello?" The voice was deep and strong.

Punchinello stopped.

"Punchinello! How good to see you. Come and let me have a look at you."

Punchinello turned slowly and looked at the large bearded craftsman.

"You know my name?" the little Wemmick asked.

"Of course I do. I made you."

Eli stooped down and picked him up and set him on the bench. "Hmm, " he spoke thoughtfully as he inspected the gray circles. "Looks like you've been given some bad marks."

"I didn't mean to, Eli. I really tried hard."

"Oh, you don't have to defend yourself to me. I don't care what the other Wemmicks think."

"You don't?"

"No, and you shouldn't either. Who are they to give stars or dots? They're Wemmicks just like you. What they think doesn't matter, Punchinello. All that matters is what I think. And I think you are pretty special."

Punchinello laughed. "Me, special? Why? I can't walk fast. I can't jump. My paint is peeling. Why do I matter to you?"

Eli looked at Punchinello, put his hands on those small wooden shoulders, and spoke very slowly. "Because you're mine. That's why you matter to me."

Punchinello had never had anyone look at him like this--much less his maker. He didn't know what to say.

"Every day I've been hoping you'd come," Eli explained.

"I came because I met someone who had no marks."

"I know. She told me about you."

"Why don't the stickers stay on her?"

"Because she has decided that what I think is more important than what they think. The stickers only stick if you let them."

"What?"

"The stickers only stick if they matter to you. The more you trust my love, the less you care about the stickers."

"I'm not sure I understand."

"You will, but it will take time. You've got a lot of marks. For now, just come to see me every day and let me remind you how much I care."

Eli lifted Punchinello off the bench and set him on the ground.

"Remember," Eli said as the Wemmick walked out the door. "You are special because I made you. And I don't make mistakes."

Punchinello didn't stop, but in his heart he thought, "I think he really means it."

And when he did, a dot fell to the ground.

I have no dots, and no stars. I neither crave the stars, nor fear the dots. My creator has made me who I am.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 3:09 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Actually, you decided for yourself not to be "in" the Body of Christ when you chose to completely separate yourself from it. Scripture knows nothing of the "lone Christian". However, if you believe otherwise, then you might try to demonstrate as much from the Bible.

Rubbish. I don't go to church. Big deal.

Point one, not rubbish. Scripture is quite plain on the issue; but if you think otherwise, then please show me from the Bible passages that support your contention. Point two, you excluding yourself from the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) is a big deal. Christianity is corporate, not individual. The Body of Christ is corporate not individual. You however pride yourself on being individual and not corporate.

And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.

I know this because I can, and have, read your extended comments to this effect in the CBox. They're as plain as the sour look on your face.

Don't have a sour look. Spend most of every day laughing. Just because you see one facet of my life, odesn't mean you see my whole life. You have judged me unworthy Ian, and you know you have.

My assessments are based on the range of information that you've provided and apparently continue to go on providing at this forum and on the Cbox. Sorry that I haven't noticed any "little rays of sunshine" happening, given that you've constantly bemoaned how shi**y your life has been, how frequently your PTSD is "triggered", how you feel like "topping" yourself and so on, and on, and on. You're like a broken record in this respect, all negative-no positives, with the "tracks" available to anyone who wishes to subject themselves to the ordeal. I have to say that you are, without a doubt, the most negative person to grace this forum in many a year. And as others have pointed out to you, you're remarkably consistent at being "inconsistent" in your various statements.

Any chance the words "Sorry Galien for judging you, labelling you, calling you a crap christian, telling you that you know nothing about the bible, that you are not a christian (and by inference that god does not know, love or acknowledge you) sorry for making an already traumatised person like you feel worse" coming out of your mouth?

Try listening to what has been said (and not just by me) and consider the ramifications before adopting the martyr's mindset. Stop to consider that there are some fields where you aren't an expert, never mind "the" expert; such would be a very good start at least. Try considering the advice that has been offered to you, and try considering the comments that have been made in CONTEXT 
before re-inventing yourself as the "ever-wronged person".

I'm fully prepared to say, "mea culpa" and apologise if there existed the slightest shred of evidence that demonstrates that I've been wrong in my assessments. You've not provided any. Not a scrap.

In a nutshell, do try closing your mouth and opening your ears for a bit, just to see what happens.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 3:31 AMCopy HTML

Just read an interesting thing in a book called Revival Sermons. This book is from 1902 so there is no reference to tongue speaking and it is in no way aligned to todays revivalists. Something in it refers to Church attendance. It states if you scatter 40 sticks across the desert they cannot burn, gather them in a heap and its a different story. it also compares the Holy Spirirt with electricity. It only works if the wires and machinery are in order. That is our part. Cant wait to read more.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 4:03 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

The Body of Christ is corporate not individual. You however pride yourself on being individual and not corporate.

No pride involved, just sensible protection of my mental health. And as I have mentioned on many previous occasions, I do fellowship and pray with other christians. Not that I have to justify myself to you.

My assessments are based on the range of information that you've provided and apparently continue to go on providing at this forum and on the Cbox.

Ah the master assessor. If only someone had told me before I hopped back on the forum that I would need to join the queue for the spiritual cavity search you feel qualified to make. Im getting a little tired of bending over Ian.

Sorry that I haven't noticed any "little rays of sunshine" happening, given that you've constantly bemoaned how shi**y your life has been, how frequently your PTSD is "triggered", how you feel like "topping" yourself and so on, and on, and on. You're like a broken record in this respect, all negative-no positives, with the "tracks" available to anyone who wishes to subject themselves to the ordeal. I have to say that you are, without a doubt, the most negative person to grace this forum in many a year. And as others have pointed out to you, you're remarkably consistent at being "inconsistent" in your various statements.

Since when is it my job to provide "rays of sunshine" to keep the rest of the world happy? I can deal with a lot of shit because I have been through a lot. Sorry if you can't keep up. Equally sorry if my openness and honesty offends you. You might want to try both those things at some point. We all know who I am Ian, do you ever come out from behind your academic self so we can see who you REALLY are? And I'm inconsistent. Oh dear. Of course you never are. Yeah. Negative. heard that before. So? A world full of positives would be quite out of balance.

Any chance the words "Sorry Galien for judging you, labelling you, calling you a crap christian, telling you that you know nothing about the bible, that you are not a christian (and by inference that god does not know, love or acknowledge you) sorry for making an already traumatised person like you feel worse" coming out of your mouth?

Try listening to what has been said (and not just by me) and consider the ramifications before adopting the martyr's mindset. Stop to consider that there are some fields where you aren't an expert, never mind "the" expert; such would be a very good start at least. Try considering the advice that has been offered to you, and try considering the comments that have been made in CONTEXT  before re-inventing yourself as the "ever-wronged person".

Martyr, me? ROFLMAO

Don't think there are any fields where I am an expert, except probably spelling, and possibly medical report typing. I make a killer quiche too, and you should see me in fishnets. Um probably a bit of an expert in forgiveness, that accounts for the total absence of body count thus far.

But seeing the term expert means nothing to me but people who have picked up books and learnt from them, its neither here nor there. I don't do that hero thing people do Ian. I'm just underwhelmed really. We are all equal in my mind. I know that is not a concept you will probably ever understand, but do try.


I'm fully prepared to say, "mea culpa" and apologise if there existed the slightest shred of evidence that demonstrates that I've been wrong in my assessments. You've not provided any. Not a scrap.

Again, you are not the spiritual judge, jury and executioner you have set yourself up to be. That would be god mate. No one is accountable to you Ian. Maintain that fantasy as long as you like, makes no difference to the way the world turns. Just makes you a pretty small person really.

In a nutshell, do try closing your mouth and opening your ears for a bit, just to see what happens.

Yes, no one can out talk the amazing Mr Thomason. We must all listen, and then say AMEN.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 4:07 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Thankfully I'm not Christ. To that end, I feel no further inclination to attempt to get you to see beyond the end of your own nose. I wash my hands of you.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 4:08 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Rob,

Charles Finney?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 4:56 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Hi, Rob,

Charles Finney?

Blessings,

Ian

Hi Ian, the book is edited by Rev.C.Perren. Inside cover states "With thoughts, themes and plans by eminent pastors and evangilists.
Rev. Charles Finney is one one of these as well as
Rev. John.R.Davies
Rev. John Gordon
W.H. Geistweit
Rev. E.A. Whittier
D.L.Moody
Rev.Herrick Johnson
E.P.Brown
Rev.F.O.Dickey
Rev.B.Fay Mills
Ira.D.Sankey
Rev.Addison.P.Foster


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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 7:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian.

Thankfully I'm not Christ. To that end, I feel no further inclination to attempt to get you to see beyond the end of your own nose. I wash my hands of you.

Hmm. Pilate was a pussy too.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 2:26 PMCopy HTML

Galien,


I have to say that you are, without a doubt, the most negative person to grace this forum in many a year.

 

I had a similar thing said to me at one time. It for all shocked me into the reality of standing back and having a hard look at myself in regard to my attitude toward the Lord and to other people. What I saw was a pathetic individual that was so full of self pity and negativity that I could not see it was I that was the problem for my own misery. Blaming others actions and short comings for the way I was and I couldn’t see past my nose. It took me sometime to let go but slowly began to realize what others could see in me that I couldn’t see in myself, so I made the effort to find the truth.

This one thing I say, if ever a person has had an opportunity to be advised how to get on track to having a happy, peaceful life and security in that which is eternal , it is you, and don’t kid your self; you are not a happy soul. Here we have had a person that has more than gone out on a limb to show you The Way and help you, but you have nothing but abused and ridiculed this man to no end. Sure, you may have been someone that has been hard done by in this life, but what has happened to you is nothing new that is not common to “fallen” man and we all suffer in this life to some degree. I wish somebody like Ian had come along and took half as much interest in my (eternal) welfare as he had in yours, it would have been so much easier.

 

Ralph.

 

PS. I had always wondered why you actually came on this forum in the first place
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 4:24 PMCopy HTML

I have renewed an acquaintance with a Jewish guy who went through primary and high school with me. I met him about a year ago at an army reunion and it turns our we live very near each other. Last week He asked me if I could help him with something and when I had finished, he asked me if I'd like to go to the Melbourne Synagogue with him on Saturday. It's funny that my best friend (next to Jesus and then my wife) is a Jew and the only other time I had been in a Synagogue was when there was no meeting. I accepted.

The hospitality and friendship showed to me was wonderful. Great singing! The Rabbi gave a sermon about loving God, questioning the congregation by way of the scriptures (mostly Deuteronomy) as to whether they understood that to love God was to obey Him, and to obey Him shows we love Him.

It is the time of year that the Jews commemorate the destruction of both temples, so the Rabbi also spoke of Israel's disobedience and their going into captivity, the bondage and the persecution, culminating in modern times with the Holocaust. He read and spoke of Isaiah Chapter 40 and God forgiving and comforting His people. Of course Isaiah 40 is a prophecy about John the Baptist and the coming of Jesus to Christians, but it also was a promise of forgiveness and liberation to the Jews in captivity.

The sermon was encouraging and thought provoking. Do I love God? How do I love God? Am I obedient to His love? My friend Itschak (Itzi) said to me that he had not been to Synagogue in a while because he was caught up in doing other things. Hmmm. I hope the Rabbi's sermon pricked him. It did me.

Jesus said that he must decrease and God must increase (John 3:30). Are we His servants greater than our Lord? (John 13:16) He is most certainly due and worthy of love. At least with all our heart, soul and might (Deuteronomy 6:5).

I thought my experience was timely, given the present discussions about doing what we want, versus what God wants.

Michael my close friend will be back tomorrow from a business trip overseas. I wonder what he will say when I tell him I went to Synagogue last Shabbat?

Shalom, John
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/08/2009 8:47 PMCopy HTML

Galien,


I have to say that you are, without a doubt, the most negative person to grace this forum in many a year.

 

I had a similar thing said to me at one time. It for all shocked me into the reality of standing back and having a hard look at myself in regard to my attitude toward the Lord and to other people. What I saw was a pathetic individual that was so full of self pity and negativity that I could not see it was I that was the problem for my own misery. Blaming others actions and short comings for the way I was and I couldn’t see past my nose. It took me sometime to let go but slowly began to realize what others could see in me that I couldn’t see in myself, so I made the effort to find the truth.


Seguidor, I don't blame other people for my own actions. Never have, never will. I am not miserable per se, I have severe depression which has plagued me most of my life, for which I take medication and have counselling. I don't believe in self pity the way most people do. Hehe I don't believe in much at all the way most people do. If something hurt you, and it still hurts you and you say so, so what? Are we not allowed to feel bad? If we feel bad for an extended period despite every effort to deal with the problem, are we defective in some way? God forbid as christians we should actually tell the truth. One of the reasons I left church in the first place was because I was heartily sick and tired of being told my depression was my fault because I didn't have enough faith. I was sick and tired of ignorance basically. Christians think they have all the answers. A lot of them see the world from a very limited perspective.

Unfortunately in this life humans tend to write scripts in their minds of the way things "should be". These are usually externally learnt ideas. Christians are supposed to be full of joy and happy arent they, smiling and wonderful. Life is just full of puppy dogs and rainbows for some people.
Good for them, it isnt that way for everyone. Some people have very very hard things to deal with. I have learned a lot about humans in the past 10 years. Working at a christian school taught me a lot. Christians are lovely people when everything is going fine, you challenge them with anything outside their comfort zone and they don't usually tend to deal with that well, not as a group anyway. I saw the way they dealt with students over the five years I worked there. The good students were wonderful, they got patted on the head frequently, and trotted out regularly as shining examples of the success of christian education. The average ones were just there. The ones who refused to co-operate however were a whole other thing.

They were in the christian too hard basket. What do you do with people who simply will not co-operate? In the christian world, you try for three months and if that doesn't work you make them feel like crap until they go away. What that is actually is a very ungodly way to deal with people.

It's all very well to call yourself a christian when things are easy. Its all very well to love people on a surface level, until god actually calls you to DO something, to go outside your comfort zone, and maybe even stay out of it for an extended period.


This one thing I say, if ever a person has had an opportunity to be advised how to get on track to having a happy, peaceful life and security in that which is eternal , it is you, and don’t kid your self; you are not a happy soul.

A happy soul? I grew out of that concept a long time ago.

Here we have had a person that has more than gone out on a limb to show you The Way and help you, but you have nothing but abused and ridiculed this man to no end.

Ian has nothing to offer me Seg but what we all have to offer to each other. Real christian love. Not the fake stuff people put on to make sure other people know how spiritual they are. Actual tolerance, forgiveness, understanding and above all concern for the soul of the other. I find Ian's personal manner arrogant, and I am not the only person to do so. Do you ever tell him to stop insulting people, or does having a degree in theology give you some kind of right to be scornful and derisive?

Sure, you may have been someone that has been hard done by in this life, but what has happened to you is nothing new that is not common to “fallen” man and we all suffer in this life to some degree. I wish somebody like Ian had come along and took half as much interest in my (eternal) welfare as he had in yours, it would have been so much easier.

And if I hear that tired platitude one more time I will smack someone. None of us have the capacity to get inside the hearts and minds of others, and to know where they have been and how that has affected them. It's arrogant and dismissive to tell other people how they feel. How the hell would we know? But no, its pick up that "script" we are apparently all supposed to follow and tell them what they "should" feel and how they "should" act.

Unfortunately revival taught us that the individual does not matter. Its don't "break rank". I didn't sign up for the bloody army. I signed up to love god and love my neighbour, not be herded like a sheep with no mind or heart of my own.

 

PS. I had always wondered why you actually came on this forum in the first place

Ah yes. Silly me. You know even though there has been so much evidence the contrary, I still hope to find non judgemental people out there with a brain and a heart that will connect to mine. When I first got booted from revival, there was no one to turn to. It was completely devastating. My whole social network collapsed, and because I care for people so much it just gutted me.

I like to meet new people and to hear their stories. I like to find out about how they have dealt with leaving revival, how it has affected their faith, do they still even have faith, how has it affected their families. When I first got on this forum in 2005 it was a fantastic help to me, but after mentioning things that were happening in my life at the time I got treated so badly I just left.

I have a pretty different view of life, most probably because I am gifted person. I tell someone that and stupidly expect they understand what that meant, just means I perceive the world differently from the average person. But even then someone uses that to have a go at me. I am different, so what, I have been all my life. I am just starting to find out why. What I would like however, like everyone else, is to be accepted for who I am. Is that a good enough reason to be here?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 12:00 AMCopy HTML

To Galien ,I have found the same issues, I left an abusive system that I stupidly put up with for 29 years and I have found that there is a group of individuals who post on this sight who sit at their computers( who stroke each others EGOS) and take pleasure in abusing those who dont fit THEIR view on scripture.I cant see any difference between these individuals and those imposters in the revival groups.That is why people are no longer posting on this sight, they cop more abuse here than they did at the groups that they escaped from.God is not an abuser, Men are abusers.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 12:28 AMCopy HTML

Mr Pooh,

I suppose it's a question of judgment. I would suggest that your estimation of the meaning of Scripture is as faulty as has been your spelling, upon occasion. And just as with spelling, so too with Scripture: one can't simply make it up as one goes along (see Proverbs 14:12).

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 12:46 AMCopy HTML

Groagan

To Galien ,I have found the same issues, I left an abusive system that I stupidly put up with for 29 years and I have found that there is a group of individuals who post on this sight who sit at their computers( who stroke each others EGOS) and take pleasure in abusing those who dont fit THEIR view on scripture.I cant see any difference between these individuals and those imposters in the revival groups.That is why people are no longer posting on this sight, they cop more abuse here than they did at the groups that they escaped from.God is not an abuser, Men are abusers.

I think a lot of things in the world come from ignorance. Spiritual abuse rarely happens with actual intent to harm. Usually the world view of the abuser is such that for them, the way they see things is the "natural order", the "right" way. Quite often their internal security is based upon their world view, and any attempt to make them see that is met with anger. Most of us are the same. It is when you impose that upon a group of people that it gets scary. You are taking away people's right to independent thought. Once you decide that it is okay to do that, downhill is the only way you can go.

I actually don't think that anyone on this site seeks to abuse people on purpose. I think that all of us who have been through revival just try to survive when we leave the best way we can. For some of us, like Ian, he has found refuge in study, as have a few others. I think it helps that kind of person to completely rid themselves of what they see as the bad theology they believed in revival. I also think that they get a sense of order and security that they probably lost when they left revival. They also have an ABSOLUTE view that what they have learned is the only possible correct interpretation of the Bible, just like the revival centre did. I think it is on that point that the similarities in style on defending said interpretation is what feels like revival all over again. We can all make the right noises to try and fit in, humans always do that, some need the reassurance of the alpha in a group more than others. I refuse to do that, its pathetic.

What is missing for me Groagan is the human compassion element. In my experience it is the love of god in a person that makes them compassionate. All those years in revival I hardly saw a scrap of compassion for anyone. It was always conform or bugger off. No real concern for the individuals, or their sensitivities. To me, I expect better of christians. Uniformity is NOT unity, it just isn't.

I'm sorry you continue to be hurt by people who should know better. Just takes a much longer time for some people to learn lessons than others.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 1:05 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Groagan
To Galien ,I have found the same issues, I left an abusive system that I stupidly put up with for 29 years and I have found that there is a group of individuals who post on this sight who sit at their computers( who stroke each others EGOS) and take pleasure in abusing those who dont fit THEIR view on scripture.I cant see any difference between these individuals and those imposters in the revival groups.That is why people are no longer posting on this sight, they cop more abuse here than they did at the groups that they escaped from.God is not an abuser, Men are abusers.

Groagan,

That is your opinion, what is your view on scripture?

In the law it is written; 'Cursed be anyone who misleads a blind man on the road'

But of course, what scripture proclaims means nothing to some.



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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 1:23 AMCopy HTML

I can say in all modesty that I consider myself to be a leading hindsight prophet.

I came across a posting I had saved to my computer, a duel between Ian and I a while back. Looking at what transpired, I now find myself disagreeing with Ian less and myself more. While I still don't agree with "context, context, context" per se as infallible (else we could take the stance that most Jews do, in rejecting prophesies about Jesus in the "Old Testament" as being out of context), "proof texting" is mostly used to justify what we want to believe, versus what was intended and/or what we should believe. Years and years of brainwashing have left conditioning to a Revivalist mindset. How can we know what is or isn't of that conditioning? Sacrificing our will for God's will.

Ian is about as subtle as brick through a window, but on the other hand, perhaps only a rod will break wilful disobedience. Bear in mind we came and stayed in Revivalism because it suited our egos to be right and self righteous, and anyone who says otherwise is glossing over reality.

I wonder how many times I have to exhort people on this forum to ignore what Ian says if you don't like it, or otherwise find the place of not minding that it hurts? Here is the link to the clip out of Lawrence of Arabia once more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6iKJn-HK4

Ian is intractable and I think he knows it. However pussy-footing usually achieves very little. Perhaps if we all stopped taking either the sycophant line or the "let's start an Ian hate club" we might be able to mellow Ian somewhat.  A bit of "Ian whispering" just might work.

Who'd have ever thought he'd call me "brother", as he did in a recent post?

Peace,

John


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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 2:00 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Fremde

I can say in all modesty that I consider myself to be a leading hindsight prophet.

Yes amazing how hindsight operates in 20/20 vision

I came across a posting I had saved to my computer, a duel between Ian and I a while back. Looking at what transpired, I now find myself disagreeing with Ian less and myself more. While I still don't agree with "context, context, context" per se as infallible (else we could take the stance that most Jews do, in rejecting prophesies about Jesus in the "Old Testament" as being out of context), "proof texting" is mostly used to justify what we want to believe, versus what was intended and/or what we should believe. Years and years of brainwashing have left conditioning to a Revivalist mindset. How can we know what is or isn't of that conditioning? Sacrificing our will for God's will.

That is why I won't play bible smackdown with anyone. I don't really have a revivalist mindset. Never really did. Learned most of the stuff I know from the bible way before then, so used to differ frequently from oversight interpretation. Really I'm sick and tired of fighting with people about it. I'd rather just live it.

Ian is about as subtle as brick through a window, but on the other hand, perhaps only a rod will break wilful disobedience. Bear in mind we came and stayed in Revivalism because it suited our egos to be right and self righteous, and anyone who says otherwise is glossing over reality.

Well if it was ian's job to break wilful disobedience in others that would be okay. Really his children are the only ones he has a right to be doing that to. I was in revival because I love god with all myheart soul mind and strength, not because I was on some kind of a weird ego trip.

I wonder how many times I have to exhort people on this forum to ignore what Ian says if you don't like it, or otherwise find the place of not minding that it hurts? Here is the link to the clip out of Lawrence of Arabia once more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6iKJn-HK4

Ian is intractable and I think he knows it. However pussy-footing usually achieves very little. Perhaps if we all stopped taking either the sycophant line or the "let's start an Ian hate club" we might be able to mellow Ian somewhat.  A bit of "Ian whispering" just might work.

I am just as intractable as Ian is. He just hasn't realised yet we are on the same side. I'm a bit more mature than a let's hate Ian club. I don't tolerate groups of any kind, much less what amounts to just another type of bullying, but with friends.

I just cannot tolerate watching defenceless people be bullied, particularly by those smarter than they are. Its nasty, egotistical and ungodly.

Watching the way some people suck up to Ian is nauseating. It amazes me that grown adults cannot see how pathetic that is. If I was Ian's wife, there is one guy there I would be a bit concerned about. If god is no respecter of persons, why should we be? Ian is a very choleric person. They get their jollies from telling the rest of the world how things should be done. For them, their way is the right way. It is just their temperament. The only friends they usually have are obsequious types. No one else can put up with their crap.

The sad thing about that is they are usually quite clever, and have a whole lot to offer but limited social skills. For some reason in kindergarten they did not work out that knowalls end up lonely. I have had a real run of cholerics as bosses. Usually they scare the crap out of everyone but me. I believe everyone to be equal, so I don't bow down and worship them. Because I have a melancholy temperament we usually work well together after I tell them they are just another person to me and don't expect me to go"oh wow u r so amazing." We are all amazing in our own way.

Who'd have ever thought he'd call me "brother", as he did in a recent post?

Is being called a brother by Ian any more special than anyone else calling you one?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 5:41 AMCopy HTML

Good afternoon Galien,

That is why I won't play bible smackdown with anyone.


But you are. You can't let go, or walk away, which was the point of my post.

I don't really have a revivalist mindset. Never really did. Learned most of the stuff I know from the bible way before then, so used to differ frequently from oversight interpretation. Really I'm sick and tired of fighting with people about it. I'd rather just live it.

Then live it. If your sick of fighting, then don't..

Well if it was Ian's job to break wilful disobedience in others that would be okay. Really his children are the only ones he has a right to be doing that to. I was in revival because I love god with all my heart soul mind and strength, not because I was on some kind of a weird ego trip.

I wasn't saying it was Ian's "job", and from what I have assessed from Ian, I think his relationship with his kids is healthy and loving, him to them and them to him.

Did you look at  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6iKJn-HK4 ?

I am just as intractable as Ian is......I just cannot tolerate watching defenceless people be bullied,......If I was Ian's wife, there is one guy there I would be a bit concerned about...........I have had a real run of cholerics as bosses.,

Why are you intractable? And  do you really believe you will stop bullies? Where is your trust in God in all this, that His will be done? "There is no king saved by a multitude of a host. A mighty man is not delivered by much strength." (Psalm 33:16)

Again I think you have Ian's relationship with his wife amiss. From time to time he has shared bits and pieces with all here. I laugh because it sounds a lot like my marriage. Our wives tolerate the eccentric child in us, but love us just the same. I'd reckon at a guess he's over the 20 year mark, and I'm coming up for 39 years + 2 friendship/engagement before that. You assume a lot. putting up with crap I guess, is life. Forgiving sins is what we expect of God, but we too often ourselves neglect. Isn't the love we have for one another that which we shall show to the world as Jesus' disciples? His love and sacrifice was not conditional. Why even at the pinnacle of his suffering just before His death he asked his Father to forgive us. (Luke 23:34)

My brother and I had not forgiven each other in more than a decade. It took my mum's death for us to see our foolishness. This morning he rang me from Queensland and we both told each other how much we cared for one another. Why on earth did we hang on to anger for so long?!!

People suck up to Ian because they are followers and want guidance. Not everyone is a "MENSA" candidate. It is the natural way of mankind to seek approval and nurture. On the other hand Galien, it seems to me that you like to argue, for the sake of arguing, I was hoping you would pause for reflection by now. You know if you don't keep putting your hand in the fire, you won't get burnt. You remind me of the comedian Elliot Goblet, when he says that he likes to put his eye near a doorknob and wait till someone opens the door and hits him in the eye. "Sure it hurts, but look at the experience I am gaining."

I'm a bit more mature than a let's hate Ian club.

Then show maturity
by turning the other cheek. Jesus was oppressed and afflicted but didn't open His mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)

Is being called a brother by Ian any more special than anyone else calling you one?

Why yes! I can get called brother by several of my friends every time I see or phone them, but to be called a brother by him who shunned my fellowship is one more barrier broken down, one more bridge mended, one more mountain climbed. The bell tolls for me......and it tolls for thee.

Peace,

John
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 8:14 AMCopy HTML

Good afternoon Galien,

That is why I won't play bible smackdown with anyone.


But you are. You can't let go, or walk away, which was the point of my post.

Haven't done the scripture thing, thats what I meant

Then live it. If your sick of fighting, then don't..

I wasn't saying it was Ian's "job", and from what I have assessed from Ian, I think his relationship with his kids is healthy and loving, him to them and them to him.

Yeah until they disagree with him I'd wager. Ian does think it is his job.

Did you look at  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6iKJn-HK4 ?

Not yet, I cannot view it at work

I am just as intractable as Ian is......I just cannot tolerate watching defenceless people be bullied,......If I was Ian's wife, there is one guy there I would be a bit concerned about...........I have had a real run of cholerics as bosses.,

Why are you intractable?

I don't back down from a fight. I am not going to let this man walk all over me like he does all over everyone else.

And  do you really believe you will stop bullies?

Not always but I think you know that when good people do nothing evil triumphs. How long did we sit there and let it in revival?

Where is your trust in God in all this, that His will be done? "There is no king saved by a multitude of a host. A mighty man is not delivered by much strength." (Psalm 33:16)

Not quite sure what you mean by that.

People suck up to Ian because they are followers and want guidance. Not everyone is a "MENSA" candidate. It is the natural way of mankind to seek approval and nurture.

I'm right thanks, I am not a follower and if I wanted guidance Ian would be the last person I would ask. He admitted today on the cbox that he believes some people are better than others. THAT is why I fight with him because his attitude drips with that belief. Obviously the people that agree with him, believe it too. That attitude disgusts me.

Then show maturity
by turning the other cheek. Jesus was oppressed and afflicted but didn't open His mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)

I have nothing further to say to Ian. But tell me, do you ever ask Ian to close his mouth when he speaks to people in such a scornful and derisive way? Or is that okay because Ian is better than everyone else. Mr I understand the bible better than everyone thinks he is BETTER THAN OTHER CHRISTIANS. He also thinks it is okay to mock people and talk down to them. Got any scripture references on that being ok?
Is it that the people on this site are so used to being treated like dirt by revival pastors that it's okay for Ian to do it? 

Out of the revival centre frying pan into the ian thomason fire. Great.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 8:35 AMCopy HTML

All,

I'd suggest that anyone interested in reading what was actually said on the CBox, rather than simply accepting Galien's somewhat unique "take" on what she thinks was said, should visit there and review the proceedings for oneself. It makes for some very interesting reading

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 9:30 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

One wonders whether there is any credibility of truth in anything Galien says/has said.

Ralph.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 9:42 AMCopy HTML

Good evening all.

A bit of Rudyard Kipling's "If" for your Ian "If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"....

Galien, the concept that all men are created equal, isn't found in the Bible. If that's you stand, you are not going to like the following text from Romans Chapter 9: 1 - 21 (ESV)

"I speak the truth in Christ - I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit - that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I wish I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and to their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel, belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac your offspring shall be named". This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son" And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not of works but of him who calls - she was told. "The older will serve the younger." As it is written "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and i will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". So then is depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

So then he has mercy on whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use?

Did you understand all that Galien? The new age concept that it's all about us is very wrong. It's all about God. And it's all about what God wants. Ditch the "free will"notions. "not of human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy".

As some wit once said "All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others".

Walk away, I say again, walk away! Your striving is after the flesh, not the spirit .... and you bring yourself to grief. Whether right, or wrong or indifferent, God is not mocked. Do you believe the Lord's prayer "thy will be done"? Or do you think He needs help because things are not quite right? You will find God's peace, guidance and power in quietude, not in strife and anger.

Peace,

John
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 9:57 AMCopy HTML

Phillipians 2:3

Let nothing be done through strife and vainglory; in lowliness of mind let each esteem each other better than themselves

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 11:06 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien

I think there could be something in that for all of us...  ;-) 

Epi
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 10:27 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, John.

Sage words indeed. Let's hope they're heeded.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 10:32 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, all.

I found it somewhat ironic that Galien appealed to Philippians 2, which she apparently thinks supports her position. It's ironic in that the entire chapter, indeed the entire book, is devoted to the concept of corporate Christian unity. One of the most difficult behaviours we former Revivalists need to rid ourselves of, is the penchant for "proof-texting": the lifting of discrete biblical passages from their immediate and mediate contexts, in an attempt to make "black" say "white".

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 11:13 PMCopy HTML

Luke 18 9-14

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:04/08/2009 11:20 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

Interesting. And which of the two do you personally identify with? The self-righteous and unteachable Pharisee, one who refused to base his beliefs, his ethics and his behaviours on the Word of God preferring instead his own opinions? Or the self-confessed sinner, one who was so convicted by his inadequacies that he didn't even try to justify his poor behaviour to others?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 12:23 AMCopy HTML

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 12:54 AMCopy HTML

Proverbs 26:4-5; 14:12 and 18:17 smiley9

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 1:22 AMCopy HTML

1 Corinthians 3:18
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 1:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Seguidor

One wonders whether there is any credibility of truth in anything Galien says/has said.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 2:26 AMCopy HTML

Proverbs 31:26
She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.


Isaiah 54:8
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.


Isaiah 54:10
For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.


Joel 2:13
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.


Jonah 4:2
And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.


2 Corinthians 6:6
By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,


Ephesians 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared

2 Peter 1:7
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 2:35 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Interesting. Clearly you didn't think it necessary to check the individual verses, to see whether or not the contexts matched in any way the particular "application" you had in mind. It's much easier to follow the standard Revivalist drill and do a Concordance search for a specific English word, and then regardless of how the author used it when forming his message, isn't it? Consequently, your latest post provides an extraordinarily clear example of why I don't take you seriously when you profess to being able to comprehend Scripture aright. 

Clearly the capacity for objective (authentic) and accurate biblical interpretation yet remains beyond you. Perhaps it would be better, then, to play to your strengths rather than to your weaknesses? At the very least doing so would probably ensure the continued generation of a sense of pity from some, and that's what you're really after, isn't it?

Goose.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 3:30 AMCopy HTML

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

RCI prophesies
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