Just putting it out there. There are many models already of course. But what do you guys see as the fundamentals, or what you now know about what you have experienced moving about. What could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.

I know it want be perfect, only one is perfect.  I'm floating ideas!!!!!! 

ps.I had a great coffee with Earth today (great Brother) thanks.  Earth tells me there are thousands of disenfranchised christians, what type of Church would meet the needs of these people who have been burnt by flawed Organisations & Administrations?

In love

Frank

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What could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.

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Apparently his son is doing fine!

He got up a couple of days later and was preaching again and flying around in no time.

It was a rough Friday but he's ok and says, "All is forgiven, don't sweat it."

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Reply to : franks ghostWhat could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.Apparently his son is doing fine!He got up a couple of days later and was preaching again andflying around and in no time.It was a rough Friday but he's ok and says that "all is forgiven, don't sweat it."

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moth you are so funny quite a good one really , i liked it.

on the subject though what would you see that can be implimented to that would creat a good , safe place for people to fellowship and get to know more about God, regardless of you current agnostic view points, just would be interested what you would like to see in a church seriously.

earth5

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Reply to : franks ghostFrank,Well I guess a goodstartwould be to get the gospelcorrect, and build from thereBlessings,Ian

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Just putting it out there. There are many models already of course. But what do you guys see as the fundamentals, or what you now know about what you have experienced moving about. What could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.I know it want be perfect, only one is perfect. I'm floating ideas!!!!!!ps.I had a great coffee with Earth today (great Brother) thanks. Earth tells me there are thousands of disenfranchised christians, what type of Church would meet need of these people who have been burnt by flawed Organisations & Administrations?In loveFrank

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thanks FG really enjoyed our time today was very uplifting and I will be praying for you and your family that as you continue this very exciting journey that God will make his plans manifest to you.

God Bless my friend

earth5

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on the subject though what would you see that can be implimented to that would creat a good , safe place for people to fellowship and get to know more about God, regardless of you current agnostic view points, just would be interested what you would like to see in a church seriously

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Ask me a question and you'll always get an answer. But first you've got to promise me you'll avoid saying words like, "manifest".

Church really and truly works on some level because it taps into our instinctual need for community. As a species we have evolved (or been designed) to work best when we work together. Society moves along and divilisations get built when we put our heads together as a team. Society falls apart when too much of the decision making process falls into the hands of the few in reigning positions. What works against modern day churches, in my opinion, is the passive environment of the Sunday morning seat warming sessions (revival language for passivity).

People get lost in the congregations of large groups and it can be just as easy to feel lonely in the audience - even moreso when you are amongst a big group of people and still have a perception that people are ignoring you. I think truly successful churches have a home group focus and not a bums on seat in the hall one.

Nick Greer, who wrote the British Israel Myth a few years back now wrote another booklet called 'Breaking the Audience Mindset'. There's heaps on this type of home churching going on and it is apparently the fasting growing type of church in the states. There's heaps of books available on this topic, but Nick's is free and adequately brief.

Free download  http://home.iprimus.com.au/seldon/breaking.pdf

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Reply to : earth5on the subject though what would you see that can be implimented to that would creat a good , safe place for people to fellowship and get to know more about God, regardless of you current agnostic view points, just would be interested what you would like to see in a church seriouslyAsk me a question and you'll always get an answer.But first you've got to promise me you'll avoid saying words like, "manifest".Church really and truly works on some level because it taps into our instinctual need for community. As a species we have evolved (or been designed) to work best when we work together. Society moves along and divilisations get built when we put our heads together as a team. Society falls apart when too much of the decision ma

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Thanks moth, carnt promise not to use the manifest word but for you i will try.

Yes I have heard a bit re the home church type of meetings and from what I understand are in general quite successful, easier for people to feel part of the community as you put it when you know who is who etc. Also there are a number of these groups that get together on a regular basis to support each other and to enjoy what a larger gathering can bring to the "church"

earth5

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Just putting it out there. There are many models already of course. But what do you guys see as the fundamentals, or what you now know about what you have experienced moving about. What could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.I know it want be perfect, only one is perfect. I'm floating ideas!!!!!!ps.I had a great coffee with Earth today (great Brother) thanks. Earth tells me there are thousands of disenfranchised christians, what type of Church would meet need of these people who have been burnt by flawed Organisations & Administrations?In loveFrank

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Good one Frank. In addition to whats gone before I'd like to add the following:-

That the Pastor/Leader of the Church , holds some recognised and accepted qualification, and the attaining of Leadership instruction and qualification is encouraged.

That the Church integrates with the wider "body"

That Church finances are subject to independant scrutiny and approval, and are published  for the inspection of any \Church member.

That the Church actively engages in the care of all Gods suffering people, with prayer, and practical help. At home , and abroad.

And adoption of the Apostles Creed, as the "Articles of belief .

These things, I find, make for a better and safer environment, where  the people are nurtured, , loved , and encouraged to participate in every aspect, and have a say in the running of things.

Blessings

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I'm floating ideas!!!!!!ps.I had a great coffee with Earth today (great Brother) thanks. Earth tells me there are thousands of disenfranchised christians, what type of Church would meet need of these people who have been burnt by flawed Organisations & Administrations?

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Howdy Ghost of Frank,

Glad to hear you & earth caught up for coffee & chat - I've been reading your posts now since you started on the forum and have seen big changes happening in your life and I'm enjoying following yours and others'  journey as much as I am enjoying walking my own.

The ingredients for the best possible church would have to be having Jesus amongst us and being His disciples  

The second option would be to have a church that is centered on Christ rather than a particular denomination, a church that is driven and led by fresh revelation, in its teaching, its music and its presentation. A church with a commitment to the Bible's teaching and that shows love and pastoral care for each individual in its congregation as well as reaching out and ministering to the hurting, the disillusioned and broken people around them.  A church that demonstrates the person, purpose and power of Jesus and that desires to help people on the journey of life.  A church that has a welcoming atmosphere and does not judge or condemn those who choose to be a ' little different' (have blue hair or fifty-five eyebrow piercings - I haven't by the way!)  A church that is relevant to all age groups but with a passion and love for its youth as they will one day be the leaders of the church. A church that is committed to addressing issues and resolving conflict in a biblical manner. 

And finally, a church that believes in salvation only through Jesus (not worshipping the signs but the saviour)  Eph 2:8-9  We are saved by God's grace alone through faith in Christ.

I'd better stop now

Urch

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Reply to : franks ghostFrank,Well I guess a goodstartwould be to get the gospelcorrect, and build from thereBlessings,Ian

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Reply to : SOTT1Reply to : franks ghostFrank,Well I guess a goodstartwould be to get the gospelcorrect, and build from thereBlessings,IanThanks Ian, what about part be the disenfranchised?

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The disinfranchised are proberly the hardest group  of people to get into any church type of structure, they have been burnt and will not allow themselves to get tangled up with anything where they even smell a whiff of control, or legalism.

Most ex revs etc have a inbuilt rader when it comes to this and thus very very wary, I know a number of people of whom have decided that the small house group type of "church" works best for them, others like myself, sea urchin, set free however have found saftey and healing in a large church. In essence it comes down to what works for you and God.

In General I guess what SU and OH have mentioned is what most are looking for, a good safe place that is Christ centered, and is reaching both inward (to those in the church in stress/trouble etc) and outward to its community, even the good old (dare I say it) "good works" that has in our past been poo pooed

My heart goes out to the "disenfranchised" as they are hurt and are wanting answers my prayers are with them and if I can help in any small way I am more than happy to be involved

earth5

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While mankind is part of the equation in running the show, all of above ingredients for a better church,will never happen until after Jesus returns. Until then, we can only decide to walk with a good attitudetoward God as individuals,be there any hope at all.

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Are you sure we can't expect something better?

If your marraige was crap, would you just say oh well, this is it?

I'm sorry Brolga, I just had a flood of stuff on Family relationships, business, marraige and the like.

Maybe it's a bloke thing, that if somethings wrong then what can be done to fix it.

So when you get a heart for Jesus and you've learnt from the Forum all the stuff that stinks, then the next step must surely be to have a look at what could be done to get it a little better at least. I for one am not a defetest. About 6 years ago I got defrauded in business cost me about $200,000 after the initial shock around misplaced trust of a bookkeeper and my own gullability, stupidity etc etc etc. I hade to move on (I didn't have to, I could have gone and worked for someone else).

Anyway when the marraige falls appart, wouldn't you take what you know and apply to a suitable new partner.

Why would Church be any different.  If where you are stinks or what you have is pointed out to be clearly wrong (after checking in with Forum buddies and others). What would you do?  What's the best we could come up with? What would really turn you on? Turn on the dream machine - doctrine, fun, reverence, sound, worship, ministry, family, location, size, colour, support networks, heres your chance to build it. No Council but a real live scriptural THEOCRACY waiting with expectation for the Lords return. 

I for one wonder what it would be like to actually have a full understanding of 9 Gifts of the Spirit fully and scripturally operating in the place (not some half baked understanding of the 3) oh how irreverant!

Love Frank

re house churches try this site

http://www.oikos.org.au

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Just putting it out there. There are many models already of course. But what do you guys see as the fundamentals, or what you now know about what you have experienced moving about. What could be implemented to create something to Honour our God and the price his son paid.I know it want be perfect, only one is perfect. I'm floating ideas!!!!!!ps.I had a great coffee with Earth today (great Brother) thanks. Earth tells me there are thousands of disenfranchised christians, what type of Church would meet the needs of these people who have been burnt by flawed Organisations & Administrations?In loveFrank

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Hi FG.. I sat here and pondered for sometime wondering what would be my idea of the perfect church. Here's my opinion... ( Gotta have that opinion thing don't we?! lol ) Firstly, as long as men are running the show, it will never be perfect as such. However, If I was to go in search of the perfect church, it would have to contains these elements. And my thoughts on this are only based from my own experiences in the RF.

I  must point out though that I do not attend any church of any kind whatsoever and am quite happily doing my own thing for the moment. I don't pray or profess to walk in the ways God would want me to. But thats not to say that I don't still beleive that He exists or that I won't oneday start wanting to go back to walking a 'christian life'. I still have morals and values though! This little angel with white wings has fallen of her perch for a while! lol

Firstly, in society, there has to be leaders. In the whole animal kingdom there are leaders and followers. So, The leaders would have to have certain training in areas of councelling, psychology, etc. Lets face it.. its the leaders we turn to for help in matters and guidance. They should not be the tyrant dictators that we have encountered within our various congregations! Seek the general consensus of the followers too before making certain rules.

There HAS to be rules. Once again.. we have rules that we have to abide by for the smooth running and safe keeping of society in general. Rules in the workplace, schools, and dare I say it... RULES in the forum! Hahaha! ( You have a tough job Moddy! )

I still believe in my experiences with God. I have no issue as does some others with tongues, healings etc. ( hense the reason I don't  post too much in those 'salvation' debates! ) However... in saying that, I do believe that the RF/RCI focus toooo much on the 'tongues' issue rather than the rest of the spiritual walk. IE: Fruits of the spirit particularly. You can speak in tongues until the cows come home but if you don't have the 'fruits' to me, you ain't a christian! Soo.... I would still keep the basic 'salvation' message the same. And the running of the meetings the same as Ive experienced. ( Am I going to get a flood of critisism for my view here??? lol! )

The church should not be allowed to tell people what they can and can't do outside of the meetings. I understand that we must 'abstain from appearance of evil' but lets face it. WE know when we have done right or wrong and its a walk between you and God. As I have mentioned elsewhere... I was not as much afraid of GODS judgement as I was the BRETHRENS! LOL! One of my biggest reasonings for this opinion is because of what happened to me whilst I was married to my oversight husband. We had gone out to dinner with a bunch of folk from the church and there was a DJ playing. A group of us ladies got up to dance. Well... didn't the proverbial hit the fan the next day! Someone 'dobbed' me in for dancing and PK rang me up and tore strips off of me for 'not setting a good example'! Hahahahaha!!! I had to go around at the next meeting and apologize to everyone that was at the dinner for causing any offence! What a bloody joke!  Yes... definately take the 'LAWS' out of churches! Hmm.. brings to mind a scripture... we saved by grace, NOT by works. ( WOW! After all this time, I can still remember a verse or two! )

And last but not least.... The church would need to focus more on the GOOD things about walking with God. Point out the benefits. Talk more about grace, love, compassion etc. NOT fill your head up with fear and condemnation. Thats how these cults kept us in there. Through FEAR!

Thats my two cents worth for the day.. well.. maybe just for the moment! lol

Regards.. Bindi

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The central and main 'ingredient' is NECESSARILY a GOD who is MANIFESTLY EVIDENT. I have grown quite sceptical because of the many, many testimonials of folk who demonstrate nothing more than wishful thinking, and blind faith.Sure, there are times when amazing things happen, but nothing more than happens in the lives of the greater population anyway. So many delude themselves with the notion that they have some favour from God because they belong to a particular church. Anything good that happens in their lives is automatically attributed to God smiling upon them and pulling strings to their benefit.There are far more practical and realistic fields of understanding of this great cosmos in which we all exist. Ways in which we can empower ourselves, realise our potential, appreciate the true nature of things, and take personal responsibility for our actions and destiny

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The central and main 'ingredient' is NECESSARILY a GOD who is MANIFESTLY EVIDENT......

Here here... couldn't agree more.

I have grown quite sceptical because of the many, many testimonials of folk who demonstrate nothing more than wishful thinking, and blind faith..........

Yeah... now thats got me thinkin'! I recall people, including myself here, making absolute fools outta themselves by walking around with an affliction of some kind and saying... " I'm healed! I'm healed!

Sure, there are times when amazing things happen, but nothing more than happens in the lives of the greater population anyway. ........

In or out... its all about positive thinking isn't it? 'Mind over matter' sorta thing?

So many delude themselves with the notion that they have some favour from God because they belong to a particular church. Anything good that happens in their lives is automatically attributed to God smiling upon them and pulling strings to their benefit.......

yeah.. the old.. " I'm right, Your wrong, I'm more of a Christian than YOU are so Gods gonna bless me more than you, so there! Nah, nah, nah, nah, narrrr!!

There are far more practical and realistic fields of understanding of this great cosmos in which we all exist. Ways in which we can empower ourselves, realise our potential, appreciate the true nature of things, and take personal responsibility for our actions and destiny .........

There are some aspects in this life we have no control over, however.. for the most part, we have the choice of which path we take. The power to change certain aspects of our life that will ultimately change our destiny.

Warrick.... I told you I wasn't schitzophrenic.... but now I'm not so sure! hahahahaha!

Reply to : MothandRust and others.

The comments are awesome, I want to qualify, I'm not talking about perfect, yeh that can come. I'm talking about right now and what we can decide is going to work, bless us and others and give glory to GOD.

Even from the point of learning what is a scriptural foundation of oversight. With Rf reacting away from the one man model (autocratic) we (or the powers that be 12 years ago) ended up designing a council. What a stupid corrupt thing that has become (group think) boys club. With a equally corrupt selection process of bring like minded people in to replace outgoing or retireing men.

So if the heart is not right then it appears that no matter what you try it will not work. God want honour it.

The only council I see in the New Testament was the Sanhedren.

Sott I want to thank you for the way you have taught us to break down a comment and then post so as to respond to the points.

A couple of years ago when I was in a baptist church our home group had the idea of breaking off from the main church and setting up regular community gatherings. Lots of food... pool.. bbq.. invited the whole street to each one without the intention of bible bashing them. Just to promote our super dooper christian lifestyle. It went well and every second Friday we had our 'spiritual' meetings.

Besides the Christian stuff I no longer believe in or can hardly tolerate, we had fun with real people and helped some with real problems just by being an ear for them, and we could make connections. We would bake and do stuff for people who needed it.... I suppose my problem is that many of these well-meaning home church christians still 'seemed' to be helpful community members only to appease their God, and not out of genuine love. Their agenda was to eventually win souls over to there thinking rather than a kind gesture that expected nothing in return.

I've seen many Revivalists leaving and joining churches looking for the closest to perfect one they can find, or at least the closest set of doctrines to the ones they've come to believe in. It's a quest for the Holy Grail and that they will die trying to find it. Part of the problem, I believe, is that churches try to set themselves up as little spiritual aquariums, where they drag their fishy friends into. A place that is safe, pseudo-happy and holy. Meanwhile, outside the tank, the real church of life is moving along. Stuttering and bumbling along... in all its beauty, horror, harmony and chaos - yeah it's real and often sucks... but that's life.

Find a church that manages to recreate the glory of God within its walls... sets up rules... doctrines... hierarchy... specialist meetings for every age and etc... and what you will end up with is a place with some level of control.

Part of the fun of setting up an aquarium or greenhouse is to control the environment within and hope you can keep the contents alive. Outside the tank... in the estuaries and the sea... the fish are happy and free.

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Reply to : earth5re house churches try this sitehttp://www.oikos.org.auYou have got me looking into this one mate, sounds interesting.By franks ghost:Sott I want to thank you for the way you have taught us to break down a comment and then post so as to respond to the points.Thankyou from me also. It helps me toput into words what my thoughts are,something I have always found difficult to do.Thankyou, Brolga

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Hi Brolga, I passed on the comment to Sott because of the way you had responded to the last post.

It had real clarity and I think most of us have Sott to thank for the way we digest an argument and then at least make a concerted effort to stay on track.

Brolga I appreciate your comments heaps.

Frank

Off topic... but,

I couldn't help but think of Earth5's signature line when I stumbled upon this comic. Classic.

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Reply to : BrolgaA couple of years ago when I was in a baptist church our home group had the idea of breaking off from the main church and setting up regular community gatherings. Lots of food... pool.. bbq.. invited the whole street to each one without the intention of bible bashing them. Just to promote our super dooper christian lifestyle. It went well and every second Friday we had our 'spiritual' meetings.Besides the Christian stuffI no longer believe in or can hardlytolerate, we had fun with real people and helped some with real problems just by being an ear for them, and we could make connections. We would bake and do stuff for people who needed it.... I suppose my problem is that many of these well-meaning home church christians still 'seemed' to be helpful community members only to appease theirGod, and not out of gen

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Outside the tank. in the rivers...and in the esturies.. the fish are free.

Until the polution kills them, or the preadators gobble them up, or they get hooked by one of the many " anglers" dangling all kinds of bait.  

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Outside the tank. in the rivers...and in the esturies.. the fish are free. Until the polution kills them, or the preadators gobble them up, or they get hooked by one of the many " anglers" dangling all kinds of bait

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Uh-huh, that's life -  it rains on the just and the unjust apparently... whether you're in the cage or out... or whether you perceive it as a cage or not.

No special treatment from god, who's no respecter of persons... Sounds fair.

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The comments are awesome, I want to qualify, I'm not talking about perfect, yeh that can come. I'm talking about right now and what we can decide is going to work, bless us and others and give glory to GOD.

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Hi FG, Brolga, M&R, old H & others,

The description that I gave earlier of what I see as the ' ideal'  church is in fact a description of the church I am now attending.  Notice I said 'ideal'  not ' perfect'  cos if we're looking for ' perfection'  we'll never find it in a church or in any organisation (Trust me, I know, I work for the Govt ! )

When the 30 or so people left Woodcroft earlier this year we all went to have a look at Edge church (the ' big church down the road from RF' ) at around the same time.  I can speak for all of us when I say that we are extremely happy with what we have found and are absolutely LOVING it.  We countdown on Sat nights knowing that we get to go to church on Sunday morning and again on Sunday night.  Our whole lives have changed and we are now seeing ' other people'  very differently and with love and compassion in our hearts.

Some of us are getting involved in a local ' soup kitchen'  where a hundred or more homeless people (with addictions etc) are fed every Tues night and given friendship with no strings attached. I am getting involved in a womens' prison ministry where we go to the prisons mostly just to listen to women who just need someone to listen in a non-judgemental way to them. There is no expectation placed on these people and no requirement for them to ' commit'  to following God.  We simply speak words of encouragment and words of life over these people rather than words of condemnation. None of these things are done for the purpose of    ' pleasing God' and certainly not to please men, but rather out of compassion for those not as fortunate as us and just to show them God's love in our lives. It is something we are feeling honoured to be able to do for others and yet something that we never encountered in our time in RF. When we were in RF,  the oversight would scoff (from the platform) at the churches that did community work and I can remember a talk just before I left where we were told by the Woodcroft pastor that ' WE are not part of the community because the community is ' the world'  and we must stay separate from it".   I now see things very differently and I praise God that He has led us as a group to a church (although ' big' ) where we can worship Him in spirit and in truth. We joke that we have brought our own ' Connect Group" (home group) with us, but we are getting to know others also. 

Recently we all did a course (free) called DNA - it was 1 hour at night over 5 weeks after the Wed night meetings.  The DNA (or ' hearbeat'  of the church) course explained the foundations of the church and the ' why' behind the 'what'.  As we are ministered to by people (men AND women of God) that are led by the Spirit, we find ourselves growing spiritually and our hearts are reaching out to those around us that do not know God - not to bible-bash them or to expect anything in return, but just to reach out with God's love to them.

God bless, Urch 

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Reply to : franks ghostThe comments are awesome, I want to qualify, I'm not talking about perfect, yeh that can come. I'm talking about right now and what we can decide is going to work, bless us and others and give glory to GOD.Hi FG, Brolga, M&R, oldH& others,The description that I gave earlier of what I see as the ' ideal' church is in fact a description of the church I am now attending. Notice I said 'ideal' not ' perfect' cos if we're looking for ' perfection' we'll never find it in a church or in any organisation (Trust me, I know, I work for the Govt !)When the 30 or so people left Woodcroft earlier this year we all went to ha

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Hi little sea urchin, what a great post, and I agree  with every word of it. Your experiences echo our own, it's very fulfilling and rewarding to be a part of such reaching out. It's called "mission" in our church, and how to improve on it, and increase it, is a subject always on the agenda at members meetings. I't is'nt undertaken to gain converts primarily,  people are'nt  bible bashed, it's done out of compassion, and to show Gods love, sharing it with those in need., without strings attached. It's the good Samaritan teaching that we are all "neighbours" .to each other.

I too heard it from the front many times at RF meetings  " we are not a welfare organisation let the world take care of their own" And  "we are in the world, but not of it."  "Love not the world, or anything in it".  Thank God my eyes have now been opened, and I hear the true meaning of the love of God , where  the scriptures aren't  bent to suit  a warped and twisted , exclusive, and  elitist organisation.

It sounds as though you have been led to a great place, and  I'm glad for you.  And if Frank and the rest of his fellowship eventualy achieve a similar  place , where truth and the love of God abounds, that will be great too. I pray for that, many Revs. and ex Revs, would flock to it  I'm sure, and it would grow and flourish.

 Of course it wont be perfect, men are failable, and weak, but as you and I , and many others have found, It can be a whole lot better when love supercedes legalism.

Blessings.

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I think that you (and a few others as well) have really missed thebasic issuein your attempts to distill Church into some sort of theoretical formula. Please Consider (smiling): when a Church is comprised of people who understand God'sgrace, then thatgraceis what ismanifested(I couldn't help myself) beyond the four walls and into the community. Thatgraceis what effects change. So forget the 'Spirit-filled' nonsense that you've imbibed over the years, and try being Grace-filledBlessings,Ian

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EXACTLY what I was trying to say SOTT1 - but you seemed to have missed my point.

 It is not a case of ' good works'  or of trying to ' convert'  people - it is the grace of God that has now personally touched me and my heart has overflowed with it, so much so, that I feel the desire to go out and speak of God's love, grace and mercy to the hurting and disenfranchised of the world. I do not tell them that they MUST do certain things to ' be saved'  - I simply tell them of God's love (the gospel message).

S'pose you'll dissect the above too SOTT1?

Regard, Urch

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But it's been really amusing watching posters try to distill the 'perfect church' to a business formula. How thoroughly Pentecostal!

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Ian (I thought the topic was the ' best possible church' - not the ' perfect church' ?)

Are you ' laughing ' at us???  You know, I fully acknowledge that I'm not as clever as you, but I don't believe our salvation has anything to do with cleverness, just our understanding and acceptance of God's grace.  

By laughing ('being really amused') at those who may now go to "pentecostal' churches, you are aligning yourself with our old RF pastors here in Adelaide who for many years have knocked all pentecostal churches as being either 'compromising' or 'full of show' and just plain wrong. I mean ONLY the RF is right, right?  WRONG!!   It is not about where we fellowship, provided the gospel (and nothing but the gospel) is being preached, it is about our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 

The church, as the body of Christ, is made up of many parts and I enjoyed a day earlier this year where our church invited/organised ALL churches in Adelaide who wished to participate in a day of prayer and worship in a big stadium for "the city of Adelaide to come to know God".

It was awesome to catch up with old friends that had left Revs many years ago and see that they were still walking on with God - some at pentencostal churches, some Anglicans, some Catholics, some whatevers.  (I'd been out of Rev for 1 month at the time so of course hadn't kept in touch with many of them)  The day also reaffirmed to me that we (and whatever church we are with) are just a small part of the body - but as the body needs all of its parts to function correctly, it also needs to work together to maximise its potential.  I'm pretty sure (?) that when God hears our collective praises, He doesn't separate us into our various 'churches' or 'groups'.   He surely just hears and loves our heartfelt praises to Him.

Sorry, I'm not as good as you are with explanations - I can only talk from my heart!  This little sea urchin is not all that clever - but  I LOVE GOD with all my heart, mind and soul.

Love and blessings, Urch

Reply to : SOTT1

Ian,

Thanks for your opinion, cool. 

Urch

Reply to Sott, replying to Sea Urchin.

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But it's been really amusing watching posters try to distill the 'perfect church' to a business formula. How thoroughly Pentecostal!

As this is my topic let me say that nowhere did I ask for or insinuate that I was looking for Perfect or pentecostal. Check the topic and read the threads largely everyone who has responded has done so without some overriding prejudice against Pentacostalism (including Old Holborn-what a beauty thanks O.H).

So if you find the comments of others thoroughly Pentecostal. Then simply put forward you suggestion.

Further to this I'm not looking for a formula, however drawing from a divers group of people available on the forum, we a getting some great ideas , THANKS

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Reply to Sott, replying to Sea Urchin.But it's beenreallyamusing watching posters try to distill the 'perfect church' to abusinessformula. HowthoroughlyPentecostal!As this is my topic let me say that nowhere did I ask for or insinuate that I was looking forPerfectorpentecostal.Check the topic and read the threads largely everyone who has responded has done so without some overriding prejudice against Pentacostalism (including Old Holborn-what a beauty thanks O.H).So if you find the comments of othersthoroughlyPentecostal.Then simply put

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Hi FG (& a question for you, Ian)

I noticed that Ian didn't actually put forward his views on ' the ingredients of the best possible church ' -  I  would be interested to hear your views on this Ian (if you have the time).  BTW I do not go to a 'pentecostal' church but I came out of one, the RF  ha ha

Old H is a treasure - he is always positive and uplifting. What's up Frank, are you looking to start your own church ??

Urch

Gee, everyone's jumping at shadows on the forum lately.

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 I noticed that Ian didn't actually put forward his views on ' the ingredients of the best possible church ' - I would be interested to hear your views on this Ian (if you have the time).

Actually, I did. It was the first reply to Frank's post

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Yes you did Ian, I just thought you might be able to expand on that if you had time. I'm not sure why everyone is getting all touchy - man if we can't even communicate on a forum how can we get church right ?? LOL

Urch

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Probably because people don't, as a rule, like having their views questioned/challenged. It's the only way spiritual growth happens, though.Catch ya.Ian

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Hey Ian, anything that brings on spiritual growth, I just gotta LOVE!!   Not to mention, I LOVE a challenge - just ask my work mates.

I feel like a sponge (hey, I even look like one, just look at  my avatar!) when it comes to soaking up the things of God. I spent 24 years not questioning enough, just ' accepting'  and consequently stayed in a church that was not even preaching the truth !!

I am so enjoying reading scriptures each day now, that I have read countless times over the years, but now I've taken off the RF blinkers, I see them quite differently. Praise God!

Urch

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Reply to : SOTT1Probably because people don't, as a rule, like having their views questioned/challenged. It's the only way spiritual growth happens, though.Catch ya.IanHey Ian, anything that brings on spiritual growth, I just gotta LOVE!!Not to mention, I LOVE a challenge - just ask my work mates.I feel like a sponge (hey, I even look like one, just look at my avatar!) when it comes to soaking up the things of God. I spent 24 years not questioning enough, just ' accepting' and consequently stayed in a church that was not even preaching the truth !!I am so enjoying reading scriptures each day now, that I have read countless times over the years, but now I've taken off the RF blinkers, I see them quite differently. Praise G

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I cant leave you guys for 5 minutes while I get some sleep, and youre at each others throats again. Behave yourselves, Let all things be done decently and in order here.  

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Just gotta say what a crack up this thread is turning into!!! LOLDog.

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LOL! I tend to agree! It started of pretty good then seemed to of turned into an all out "he said-she said" bitch fight! hahaha!  Still.. makes for some light entertainment though! Having said that... Its been good reading other peoples perspective on this topic. As previously mentioned... Diversity!

How about we just do away with organizations altogether! Lets face it.. Jesus didn't attend any meetings of a particular organization! Food for thought eh? I don't think I could ever go back to a church of any kind. I think I'd prefer to just follow God my own way if I was to go all "Christian-like" again. Reading the posts on here has just brought further to the forefront again just how screwed up any church can become all the while it is led by men. One says it should be done ONE way, and the other disagrees and so on and so on... Nope.. Just decided, christian organization groups are not for me anymore.

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Thanks Earth I am enjoying the contributions and have shared them with a number of people including 2 pastors.  mmmmmm. Todays a big day in Syd.mmmmmmmm.

Thats it for me for now.

ps. Bindi. Gods richest love to you. There is a real warmth that comes through from you. (just a tidy up of poor posting)

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Reply to : earth5Thanks Earth I am enjoying the contributions and have shared them with a number of people including 2 pastors. mmmmmm. Todays a big day in Syd.mmmmmmmm.Thats it for me for now.Except Bindi. Gods richest love to you.

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Hiya FG.... Hope your day has been a good one for you!

Thats it for me for now.  Except Bindi. Gods richest love to you.

To quote a very famous saying from our dear Pauline Hanson...... " Please explain?"

I may of misunderstood your " except Bindi" statement, but I'm reading it as if you don't feel I deserve Gods love anymore?? Am I right? If so, why? Because I've decided that I don't want to attend any organizations anymore? Because I'm sick of the way men ( figuratively speaking ) want things done their way? I thought everyone came up with some great comments on what their ideal church would be like. Myself included.. however, like I mentioned before... there are such diversities in how people would want the church to be run etc in inevitabley leads to clashes within the groups. We only have to look at ourselves! We have left because we did not find our churches to be satisfactory! As mentioned in a post on the KQ topic, someone said that PK is always clashing with other members of the council over rules and regulations etc. Some have moved onto other groups and are quite happy there no doubt and good on them! I myself NOW feel that I would rather just read my bible at home and walk a 'christian' life by myself when I'm ready to do so. Not get tangled up in some organization again. I did state quite clearly that I DON'T profess to be a 'goody two-shoes' Christian anymore. Well, not at the moment. I still acknowledge there is a God. I still believe the gospel but I choose, at the moment, to do my own thing. GOD knows my heart. He knows where I'm at in my journey. I'm not a bitter ex-rev anymore however, the damage that being part of this type of group is still prevalent. Maybe one day that will go completely. I don't know. Its all a growing, learning and healing process. And only HE alone will decided whether I'm still worthy of His love anymore.

Regards... Bindi

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I still acknowledge there is a God. I still believe the gospel but I choose, at the moment, to do my own thing. GOD knows my heart. He knows where I'm at in my journey. I'm not a bitter ex-rev anymore however, the damage that being part of this type of group is still prevalent. Maybe one day that will go completely. I don't know. Its all a growing, learning and healing process. And only HE alone will decided whether I'm still worthy of His love anymore.

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Sorry to butt in here Bindi, but I just felt the need to say something to you. 

Your last sentence says  'and only HE alone will decide whether I'm still worthy of His love anymore'

YOU ARE WORTHY of His love. God doesn't take His love away from us dependant on whether we love Him or follow Him or not.   He LOVES all of us even though he may not  necessarily LIKE the things we may do.

So please don't feel that God doesn't love you or that you are not worthy just because you have been hurt by an organisation and need time to sort yourself out - as you say it is a growing, learning and healing process.  When one has been hurt/deceived by an organisation that operates in the name of Christ, it is normal to feel a whole range of emotions e.g. anger, bitterness, hurt, disillusionment etc.  I always feel sad when I see people blame God for their hurtful experiences (not saying you are, but many do)  

You are a WORTHY and LOVED child of God and always will be

Love from Urchin

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Reply to : bindiI still acknowledge there is a God. I still believe the gospel but I choose, at the moment, to do my own thing. GOD knows my heart. He knows where I'm at in my journey. I'm not a bitter ex-rev anymore however, the damage that being part of this type of group is still prevalent. Maybe one day that will go completely. I don't know. Its all a growing, learning and healing process.And only HE alone will decided whether I'm still worthy of His love anymore.Sorry to butt in here Bindi, but I justfelt the needto say something to you.Your last sentence says'and only HE alone will decide whether I'm still worthy of His love anymore'YOU ARE WORTHY

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Hiya Sea Urchin.. Thankyou!

Your reply to me shows what a lovely christian you are! What a sweetheart!

YOU ARE WORTHY of His love. God doesn't take His love away from us dependant on whether we love Him or follow Him or not.   He LOVES all of us even though he may not  necessarily LIKE the things we may do.

And that is what I have always been led to believe. I have no doubt in my mind that He is not particularly 'happy' with the life I lead now , but I do believe He still loves me. I have two children.. I love them dearly. They do things quite often that I don't like very much and they sometimes make me angry. HOWEVER... Whilst I may not LIKE them at times  , I will ALWAYS love them! Its an unconditional love. The type of love God has for us. Unconditional!

 I always feel sad when I see people blame God for their hurtful experiences (not saying you are, but many do)  

So do I... many do blame God. I don't and never have. I blame the institutions!

Thankyou once again for your kindness!

Bindi

You're welcome bindi,

I have finally learned (after 24 yrs in RF & not learning much at all !!! ) about the love of God and the love that we all need to have for each other.  I feel so full of God's love nowadays that I feel I'm overflowing with it  LOL

God bless, Urch

Oh , how the written word can work sometimes. The answer is an unequivical no. My unconditional love goes to you and I felt moved to ask Gods blessing. Nothing more nothing less.

May God Bless (thats it).

Frank.