|
Talmid
|
301#
|
Rank:Regular Member

Score:4190
Posts:205
Registered:21/04/2008
|
Reply to Galien
(Date Posted:28/09/2009 22:19:39)
If anyone makes a poor financial decision, then the consequences of that decision fall in their lap, no one else's. They are the ones who chose to trust the person, why is it up to anyone else to do their research for them?Great idea. Let's start with removing the statutory capital reserve requirements imposed on Australian banks and follow up with disbanding the various government financial regulators. Pity we didn't do that before the "GFC".
(Message edited by Talmid On 28/09/2009 22:22:32)
-------------------------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
Didaktikon
|
302#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To tommo
(Date Posted:28/09/2009 22:20:37)
Thommo,
In the context of St Jerome's quote, "Churchman" referred to a minister/pastor/priest. The issue was a divided loyalty: between God and his interests on the one hand, and Mammon and the financial interests of the pastor/businessman on the other.
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Fremde
|
303#
|
Rank:Regular Member

Score:4470
Posts:219
Registered:19/09/2007
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:28/09/2009 22:21:55)
I wonder if St Jerome would have liked me?
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:24 to 27 ESV)
I pray that God my Father, makes it so possible with me, for the scriptures also say.....
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17 to 19)
I think St Jerome may have been, in particular, speaking of those that saw the church as a place to do business to make gain from. This is anathema to me. I would rather do something for material at cost, and free labour, than to be accountable for usury and or extortion.
John
|
|
Metanoian
|
304#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
Reply To Fremde
(Date Posted:28/09/2009 23:37:35)
Reply to Fremde
I wonder if St Jerome would have liked me?
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:24 to 27 ESV)
I pray that God my Father, makes it so possible with me, for the scriptures also say.....
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17 to 19)
I think St Jerome may have been, in particular, speaking of those that saw the church as a place to do business to make gain from. This is anathema to me. I would rather do something for material at cost, and free labour, than to be accountable for usury and or extortion.
John
Hi John,
Have another look at the context of Mark 10:24 .... but theology aside, I agree with your last point and I suppose we could classify that what Simon got up to as a form of "Simony" ... but he won't be able to buy his way out of this... anyway my prooftext for this occasion is "But the thing that Simon and Victor and Glenn and Mathew had done displeased the LORD. 2Sam: 11:27. Blessings John
Metanoia...
|
|
Xracer2
|
305#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 18:38:46)
Hi Ian, Just getting back to you on how you would have dealt with it. What you have added there seems very logical and would also be the way that I would assume most people would take.
"Given that Simon was advised of the broad contours of the incident almost from the "get-go", one could rightly assume that he should have: (a) attempted to speak with all of the people concerned in the matter from the outset. He didn't. Furthermore, as the head of the RCI Simon should have, (b) attempted to gather sufficient information to reach an informed conclusion as to the likelihood of the claims being true. He didn't. And finally, that Simon should have, (c) done everything in his power to minimise the impact on all of the the people involved, and on the assembly as a whole. He didn't."
This brings up more questions, the main one being "He Didn't". How do YOU know that he didn't do these things? any proof? If Look at them in the order you have. (a) How would you know who he has contacted and are you sure he never contacted anyone involved? (b)What have you seen of this? Do you have proof of this? (c) If PS got up and told everyone they must stop all this "inside trading" (my words, but you know what I mean), don't you think that this is a dictators role? I would imagine he would then have people on his back saying that he is trying to control peoples lives, and he is Hilter, the Rci are conrol freaks, etc...etc...etc (I think you get my meaning). Some of these people involved are smart, not stupid (well stupid to get involved if you ask me), wouldn't you think they would have the brains to see what was going on OR was it just greed on EVERYONES behalf? (this begs another question, do you throw them all out of the church because they are ALL greedy, because greed should not be apart of the church?) Also did he say anything about it? I myself nerver heard him, but I am not invovled with it either. Also where does the church stop? Do we go into peoples personal lives, thier pay packets, etc..etc.. and tell them what to do with thier money? I mean any church by the way, not just the RCI. If a Priest,Minister,Pastor came up to you in your church and said "You are not allowed to work with him anymore because he is in the church", or "you must pay 10 percent tithes, because the bible says so". You would tell him to mind his own business or show him what the scriptures says about it, in your own words? Then what does he do, what YOU want him to do?
Still I am only interested in how you deal with something like this and when the oversite is crossing the line in peoples personal lives.
|
|
tommo
|
306#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 19:52:10)
Hi Rob
(c) "If PS got up and told everyone they must stop all
this "inside trading" (my words, but you know what I mean), don't you
think that this is a dictators role? I would imagine he would then have
people on his back saying that he is trying to control peoples lives,
and he is Hilter, the Rci are conrol freaks, etc...etc...etc (I think
you get my meaning)"
Simon Longfield and other RCI oversight are happy to get up and tell people which concerts they may not attend, which music not to listen to. Church members are often told to disassociate with family members who have left RCI. Various church/young peoples activities are considered compulsory.... there even used to be a curfew imposed on younger people.... So, RCI is happy to impose all these restrictions but you say they should not get involved when church members are getting fleeced.... GIMME A BREAK!
(Message edited by tommo On 29/09/2009 19:54:54)
|
|
Episkopeo
|
307#
|
Rank:Regular Rookier

Score:5700
Posts:267
Registered:30/08/2007
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 20:20:59)
Hi Xracer2, In one of Ian's replies he aptly stated :- "The fact of the very strong RCI pastor-congregant relationship, based as it is on an upwards focussed degree of implicit trust, led to the presumption that what took place was perceived as an abuse of spiritual authority"
In your last sentence you say :- Still I am only interested in how you deal with something like this and when the oversite is crossing the line in peoples personal lives"
Xracer, crossing the line into peoples' lives has never worried RCI leaders, ever. Check that out by reading the Guidelines For The Smooth Running Of The Assembly. When I first joined RCI it was stated as a proudly held policy that no financial dealings were to be entered into between assembly members and if anything like this did come about it would be revealed to the leaders by the Holy Spirit. Well, the difference here is that it was the leaders themselves who were breaking their own rules - leaders the people were in obedience to. Obey the Oversight.
Perhaps SL, as the RCI world leader should have tackled it the same way as with much, much more minor offenses like smoking, drinking etc, by excummunication. Even Tupperware, Jewellery etc parties (hate the things) when they gathered momentum were clamped down on, so why not this? Unless the operation headed by a few aimed at achieving big dollars similar to the way certain members of Hill$ong do it.
Epi
|
|
Xracer2
|
308#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 21:02:26)
Good point Epi,
I guess the leaders involved wish they had not been involved now. I also imagine that the church has learn't a lesson in all of this? This is why I also stated that if it goes to court that if people are found to be in the wrong and are punished, I am happy with that. If they are found to do no wrong I am happy with that too. BUT are all people going to be happy?
Now the "RCI pastor-congregant relationship" is something that I find interesting. Does this mean that people are too stupid to think for themselves? Were you too stupid?
I have seen the RCI change a lot over the years. I myself had problems with the way it was in the 90's, very very military style. I guess it use to "Mother" the people. But what I see now is that people think for themselves. Make there own decisions in life. If people need help they ask and are helped. You would not know this if you aren't involved. It not like how it use to be. I guess the 90's may have been like the 40's ? who knows. Yes there is some sort of guideline pages or something, I saw it years ago. But these from what I have been told are guidelines the are not some Bible bashing hammer. They are mearly encouragement on how to deal with certian situations. It is still up to the PERSON to follow them or not. Everyone has to live there life, hopefully they live it with God's ways on mind. And that we all strive to do what is right. If people break the Law of the Land, they deserve to be punished accordingly. I have no problem with that at all. If they break God's Law's it's the same result, expect the big fella with deal with them. If someone breaks God's Law that is between them and God, what have they done to me?
Rob.
(Message edited by Xracer2 On 29/09/2009 21:03:52)
|
|
Talmid
|
309#
|
Rank:Regular Member

Score:4190
Posts:205
Registered:21/04/2008
|
Reply to XRacer2
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 21:05:15)
Hi XR
(c) "If PS got up and told everyone they must stop all
this "inside trading" (my words, but you know what I mean), don't you
think that this is a dictators role? I would imagine he would then have
people on his back saying that he is trying to control peoples lives,
and he is Hilter, the Rci are conrol freaks, etc...etc...etc (I think
you get my meaning)"
As an observer I must say I find this strawman either silly or highly disingenuous Ian didn't say that.
Apart from that you seem to forget that Simon has testified that he did not investigate reports (at least 2 or 3 witnesses!) of what proved to be highly unethical if not illegal business dealings by one of his pastors eg, promoting a business scheme as profitable when it is not and subsequently not using the assets they had to pay back as much debt as they could. As "senior pastor" he had a duty of care to investigate and point out the eternal consequences of such unXian behaviour to the Dukers. And of course as "senior pastor" he had a duty of care to the other members of his flock to warn of, if not protect from, that unXian behavior, yet he chose to simply trust Glenn and leave him in a pastoral office until the courts had exposed matters.
(Message edited by Talmid On 29/09/2009 21:12:33)
-------------------------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
Didaktikon
|
310#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To Xracer2
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 21:14:56)
Hi, Rob.
Two things. First, I'm comfortable making the statements that I did because I have a detailed and first-hand understanding of the circumstances surrounding the matter. Second, the issue isn't now and never has been about a church figure "dictating terms" to the members of his or her congregation. The issue is that the Duker brothers were credentialed ministers in the RCI, and that they abused their positions of authority and trust in the pursuit of personal financial gain. Simon Longfield, by virtue of his appointment as the head of the RCI, had a responsibility to ensure that any allegations of this sort were suitably investigated and dealt with. He didn't. Simon, quite simply, did not wish to become involved. By way of an analogy, what would you think of a senior minister who refused to investigate charges of sexual misconduct made against one (or several) of his pastors?
I suppose what concerns me about your attempted defence of Simon is this: you hinge everything on the Courts closing and locking the door to the china shop after the bull has had his time rampaging therein, smashing things up. What of the fact that the Landlord was warned about the bull's proclivities when it was in the early stages of eying off the china? And that in spite of this, he chose to leave the door open anyway? Understand that good leadership is proactive in nature. Bad leadership, on the other hand, is strictly reactive. As the old adage goes: "... an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 01/10/2009 17:27:32)
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Galien
|
311#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II

Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 21:34:38)
-------------------------------------------------------------- I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
|
|
Xracer2
|
312#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 22:54:44)
Hi all,
Sorry to disappoint you Talmid, But It would be unwise on me to judge PS if I was not there. I have not seen the evidence. Maybe Ian has? Which maybe is his reason for being 100 percent sure? It looks as though you would not be happy if a Judge found no fault with PS, Ian? This is what I gather from your post, correct me if I am wrong. If so why would you be? And no this is not in defence of anyone, Why you take it like that is probably because I have not said I beleve PS is wrong, but then again I do not say he is right either. It just that I have not seen any evidence put forword here, yet anyway. Sure I saw the Today Tonight video, but would you believe everything Today Tonight says? What I do know is that Glen is not a pastor anymore and has not been for quite some time. Also he has been put out. Has anyone here asked PS about what has happened?
Rob.
|
|
Didaktikon
|
313#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To Xracer2
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 23:05:07)
Robb,
You assume a great deal, but apparently know very little about the matter. Perhaps, then, you should wait until you are better informed before commenting further?
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Xracer2
|
314#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 23:07:11)
Hi Tommo,
I forgot to mention too, With some of your comments about not being allowed to do this as that, Music = I listen to Megadeath (just to name one), they are a favourite band of mine from the 90's metal era. I have never been told not to listen to them (I even once was asked from the platform what I listen to and said "Megadeath"), Or any of the other music I listen to. I also know people in the RCI who TALK,VISIT, and STAY over at families places that are out of fellowship or have left, and have been doing so for years! So I am not sure where you get that from. If someone told me I couldn't see a family member because they don't go to my church I would have a few words of "encouragement" for them. Young peoples was great, I enjoyed it, I had lots of fun time with all the kids in there. Yes there were times I didn't go, and I don't ever remember being told off for not going or put out or whatever you are saying. Also to my knowledge there is no curfew for young people unless it is by there parents. Maybe the church you went to had a friut bat up the front?
Rob.
|
|
Xracer2
|
315#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/09/2009 23:13:41)
Yes Ian you may be right, But I have also talked to people who are involved in it and they gave me their side of the story. I would like to know where the proof is though, that is all I am asking. No Ian I don't assume a lot, why do you think I am asking? I am not going to find out if I don't ask.
|
|
tommo
|
316#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:30/09/2009 17:23:07)
Hi Rob
Yes I did go to a church with a fruit bat up front, his name was Lloyd, after a while another fruit bat turned up his name was Simon. 26 years in RCI, don't bother telling me about the on-the-record rhetoric and hyperbole that comes from the platform. A lot of the rules and regulations are delivered behind closed doors and enforced by the group culture. In your posts you use a lot of the platitudes I used to hear at RCI, I note you use the word "encourage" a lot, That is an RCI'ism for "enforce our culture".
Yes I did ask Simon Longfield to explain to me the Duker situation and his involvement, he simply denied any wrong doing and told me he was "Waiting for the umpire's decision", whatever that means.
If you want specific examples of the appalling treatment of people I can give them, I am loathe to name names as the people involved may well be observers/contributors to this forum and have been hurt enough without dredging up the past.
(Message edited by tommo On 30/09/2009 17:24:54)
|
|
Didaktikon
|
317#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To tommo
(Date Posted:30/09/2009 17:40:38)
Good morning, Thommo.
Try not to take Rob's comments personally, he's several states removed from the "action".
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
tommo
|
318#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:30/09/2009 18:04:09)
Good point Ian
Sometimes I find myself having a shoot-from-the-hip reaction to revival peddlers.... I guess it makes an interesting point about the impact my RCI involvement has had on me from birth 'till 25 is a formative part of ones' life. 10 years on and despite the fact I live in blissful happiness I can still have a mildly aggressive reaction to people extolling the "virtues"of the place.
I suspect that things may have changed a little in those 10 years, however, given that the doctrine is as dodgey as you and others have proven it to be, it is unlikely to experience any sort of positive trend.
T
|
|
Didaktikon
|
319#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To tommo
(Date Posted:30/09/2009 18:28:09)
Thommo,
Sure, there have been some changes made to 'business' over the years, but RCI apologists like Rob overstep the mark by a long way when they make the sorts of claims that they do. I've personally found that it helps to have a more 'global' perspective of the fellowship than simply a strictly local or regional view, such as that held by Rob. Such tends to provide one with what is a more "full-orbed" perspective of matters.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 30/09/2009 18:31:33)
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Xracer2
|
320#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:30/09/2009 20:04:25)
Ian and Tommo,
Thanks for the replies,
Tommo so that you understand and I know Ian does too. I Don't know what goes on in all Rci assemblies, I never said I have. I only go by what has happened to me or near me.
Yes things were different a while back, times change I am sure you are aware of that. They let women in army to fight now, they never use to. Black people were never allowed to vote, Women weren't allowed to be at the bar, You were allowed to smoke in resturants etc..etc.. So times do change and so do rules/laws. I would hope that people understand that. Forgiveness ring a bell. If I was to turn my back on all the people that offended me over the years I wouldn't be much of a christian (even thou Ian would strongly disagree?), But you get my meaning. There are many other churches in that boat including your traditional churches, I am sure you are aware of that! I am not interested in dredging up peoples past or greveances, and I know there are some horrible stories that have happened to people. There is also a lot of hatered out there because situations that happened...not good. I am quite confident God knows what is going on and HE will deal with it accordingly in the end. God Rules! Anyway the whole point of me posting here was to see some proof behind all of the accusations that have been made, not just hearsay.
Since you spoke to PS and he said the "umpire", who is he referring to? I am also glad that YOU would ask him yourself.
I guess it is as Ian says, "Watch this space", It will be interesting to see what happens.
Rob.
|
|
tommo
|
321#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 17:28:03)
Hi Rob
Thanks for your dissertation on modern life and how things have changed in the world - good stuff. However, I dont see how changes to government legislation on the subjects of smoking in restaurants, voting or women's rights has to do with RCI policy.
As for forgiveness, you are asking people whose lives were ripped apart by despotic revivalist pastors who, in many cases, broke the law by forcing underage couples to leave the church until they were old enough to marry, forced abused and battered women back into the relationships they had fled to be "right with the lord". Now I know all you revivalists are well adjusted and have a huge capacity for forgiveness but Rob, how do you think you would cope if this was your son or daughter or loved one.
Out of interest Rob, where are you based and who is your Pastor?
|
|
Didaktikon
|
322#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To tommo
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 18:38:40)
Good morning, Thommo.
Rob fellowships in the Brisbane RCI, so Darcy Ryan is his pastor 
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Xracer2
|
323#
|
Rank:Noob

Score:340
Posts:17
Registered:28/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 21:07:51)
Hi Tommo and Ian,
As Ian says, I can answer for myself thou, but thanks Ian anyway.
The bit about coping if it was son or daughter (or whatever family member) is always a cracker question. If you want my personal answer it is "I don't really know", Simply because I have not experienced that. I have had friends in that boat. I can also see the things arise from these situations. None of it is fun, it's very heart breaking, I am sure you will agree. I also see that everyone's walk is between them and the Lord. Sure I see things (good or bad) by peoples action, but I really don't really know what is going on with their heart and the Lord.
I know that you also understand the reason why people are asked to marry so there is no point in me saying it all over again.
Now also I gave examples of how times change as well, I was not comparing Political and Religious views as you think I might have been, sorry if I gave you that impression. If you want to put it more biblical, people don't rent there clothes anymore, or do you? Do we stone people? Do we pile ash one our head? Did they have mobile phones ringing in the synagog in the year 30 AD when there was a speaker talking (maybe something else), if so how did they deal with them? (you get my drift). Please don't tkae it the wrong way I am not trying to be a smart pants. With RCI and ANY church for that matter, they change over time. EG, the RCI use to see merit in Numerics, but really you can do anything with numerics so what is the point? Numerics, from what I gather also really has nothing to do with salvation, or maybe you can correct me on that? If there is a church or religious system that has always been the same from the year dot, I would be surprised. Humans change, not God. Churches are run by man are they not? so one would come to the conclusion that they can change, maybe I am wrong?
I also find what you say about "Forcing " people to marry rather interesting. I have never ever in my time seen anyone being forced to marry. I know one or two that were advised to marry but never forced. If a couple did not want to get married it is thier choice. I know of people who didn't. It is the same as it is your choice to believe in what you believe or go go to wherever you want to, I am sure you know that. It is a god given right that "we" as human beings "believe" in what "we" want to. To believe in what God believes is a different matter. But it is still our right as an individual. So if a person did not want to get married, here in Australia, NO one can "force " them too, it is as simple as that. I am sure you are quite aware of that.
Sorry I have to cut it short, Rob
(Message edited by Xracer2 On 05/10/2009 16:11:24)
|
|
Metanoian
|
324#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 21:36:00)
Reply to Xracer2
I also find what you say about "Forcing " people to marry rather interesting. I have never ever in my time seen anyone being forced to marry. I know one or two that were advised to marry but never forced. If a couple did not want to get married it is thier choice. I know of people who didn't. It is the same as it is your choice to believe in what you believe or go go to wherever you want to, I am sure you know that. It is a god given right that "we" as human beings "believe" in what "we" want to. To believe in what God believes is a different matter. But it is still our right as an individual. So if a person did not want to get married, here in Australia, NO one can "force " them too, it is as simple as that. I am sure you are quite aware of that.
Sorry I have to cut it short, Rob |
I have known many a young or courting couple being given the "choice" and told to marry or leave !!! Metanoian
|
|
Didaktikon
|
325#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To Xracer2
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 21:43:11)
Hi, Rob.
Given your response, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide me with Scriptural support for the RCI's take on the whole "morality-fornication-marriage" thing? You know, examples where Scripture mandates that sexual sins should result in permanent disfellowshipping? Or that marriage is the solution for acts of fornication? Those sorts of things
Finally, I think you've confused the issue of cultural applicability (e.g. rending one's clothing in grief) with doctrinal "flip-flopping" (i.e. the whole Numerics nonsense), in your attempt at defending RCI policies and practices. The latter doesn't follow from the former.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 01/10/2009 21:55:20)
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
tommo
|
326#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:01/10/2009 22:50:04)
Hi Rob
I am sorry for engaging you in discussion, I regret it.
T
|
|
Metanoian
|
327#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
Reply To Xracer2
(Date Posted:04/10/2009 17:03:10)
<!-- IF YOU'RE GOING TO USE GOOGLE ADS, THIS IS A GOOD PLACE TO PUT THEM -->
The Bailiff turned up with the Summons to be served just after G had left.
His address was secured this time.
There is another Solicitor (Debt Collector) who has collected over $100,000 of dollars Glenn owed to people that have NO affiliation with RCI.
We only hear these RCI involved situations due to our association and family in RCI, we have heard only a small portion of what the Ds in their dismal and unethical business have allegedly done to people for many years.
People from the Ds past are claiming information of dubious business practices that have continued for years and are just the norm wether legal or ethical doesn’t seem to be a consideration.
The D’s Business practices could be compared to an open vein, the bleeding out of others money is of no concern as there has been an open slather of transfusions available, the family fortune is said to have tipped in Millions over the years, his facade as a trust worthy man of God assured assembly and non assembly folk the safety of some one honorable who had their best interests at heart, and the assembly member who was also an employee who foolishly gave G help when G portrayed himself as a Pastor/brother in desperate need of financial assistance of short term loans.
When the dates to return funds and release their names from debts, out came the man who is now being revealed before the Courts, very different to the Pastor that convincingly begged for their help with such sincerity and humble thanks.
Similar situation to the poor Pensioner/Widow who G is said to have sincerely assured he was fighting this ATO debt on her behalf, a debt left jointly in her name with RVP (Alleged GST Credits claimed and kept by RVP without her knowledge) during the same week he was knowingly liquidating his company, knowingly lying to her leaving her responsible to pay the debt of ill gotten gains.
There are too few words to describe the depth of filthy greed of these people, no moral conscience and still not even after being revealed has any remorse been shown.
Total psychopathic blindness to wrongs, and the delusion further justified by the support of PSL and VS on behalf of RCI.
The Church is the perfect feeding ground, full of trusting vulnerable people, who like to see the good in people, who would give the shirt off their back to some one in distress or need, blindly obedient, told not to judge, not to speak ill of someone to another brother and with that cloak of silence guaranteed - church folk are like sheep that can be picked off one by one if nobody cries WOLF!
There are sheep that have been bitten by this wolf and they sit, some have lied, others just too gutless to stand up and cry wolf – the blood of others are on their hands.
|
|
Metanoian
|
328#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:11/10/2009 22:10:29)
Bankruptcy reform needs reform<!-- Class 'push-0' just right-aligns the element so that the main content comes first. -->
<!-- cT-storyDetails -->
DENNIS TURNERJune 26, 2009
It's high time that stakeholders had their say.
THE bankruptcy reform agenda of the Federal Government needs a thorough
overhaul. Reform may be desirable, possibly even necessary given the growing
number of bankruptcies, but the Government's proposals do not tackle the real
needs.
There may be a case for reducing the statutory period for bankruptcy from
three years to one, but only for individuals with relatively small debts.
Between 1992 and 2003, the Bankruptcy Act contained provisions whereby a
bankrupt with debts not exceeding 150 per cent of income could be discharged
after six months.
Reintroducing a similar provision would streamline the process where there is
no benefit to creditors or the bankrupt in maintaining the bankruptcy and would
allow the trustee the discretion to retain the bankruptcy if it is believed a
better outcome might ensue for creditors or to facilitate further
investigations.
In larger cases, obviously a one-year period of bankruptcy is inappropriate.
Take this example.
I am currently the trustee in the bankruptcy of Glenn Phillip Duker, who owes
his personal creditors a large sum, $34.5 million. His business affairs involve
36 companies, including a family investment company. The inter-connectedness of
these businesses is staggeringly complex.
Duker was previously a solicitor turned Pentecostal preacher and several of
his congregation are listed in the 22 pages of creditors against his personal
estate. (Surprisingly, not a single creditor is prepared to underwrite the costs
of further research into his affairs and I have been forced therefore to take
the extraordinary step of applying to the Insolvency Trustee Service of
Australia for the necessary funding.)
There is no possibility of disentangling this bankruptcy in 12 months. I also
believe that Duker's creditors, whose financial lives have been destroyed by his
bankruptcy, will not be satisfied if he were to be discharged after 12
months.
Attorney-General Robert McClelland must also consider the position of the
banks and the Tax Office. Banks or statutory authorities do not act
precipitously or capriciously in seeking a bankruptcy order. On the contrary,
they go to considerable lengths to avoid it. It is only when the debt
delinquency is insoluble and all efforts of compromise have failed that the bank
or authority considers bankruptcy as a last resort.
If in such circumstances the debtor can then walk away after 12 months —
whether or not they comply with the demands of the trustee — bankruptcy loses
its usefulness as a credible sanction.
Although the proposed changes include provision for the payment of compulsory
contributions for a period of three years (that is, two years after automatic
discharge), payment of contributions will be almost impossible to enforce
without incurring legal costs if the bankrupt has been discharged.
At present a trustee may use the coercive powers in the "objection to
automatic discharge" provisions. Objection to discharge is not intended to be a
punitive process but an inducement to comply with a requirement. It is a very
effective instrument in maintaining the
co-operation of otherwise delinquent bankrupts, especially where a bankrupt
defaults in payment of compulsory contributions.
It is proposed to increase the debt threshold at which a creditor can bring
bankruptcy proceedings from $2000 to $10,000, a fourfold increase. In my view an
increase to $4000 or $5000 may be justified and this threshold could be
indexed.
But under the proposed changes, where a creditor's claim is less than
$10,000, they will be obliged to seek other recovery processes or abandon the
claim. This may create a situation where the bailiff is required to seize goods
under a warrant — household goods that may be exempt property in a
bankruptcy.
Another aspect of these proposals also needs to be challenged — that names
and details of bankrupts be omitted from public register after a certain
period.
This suggestion seems to fly in the face of the Government's own mantra of
improved transparency.
Commercial credit bureau operators already remove credit history after seven
years.
A search of the government register is usually conducted only when parties
have need for specific information regarding a potential bankruptcy history.
Surely investors and other interested parties should have the right to
investigate the background of people with whom they may be doing business.
The Attorney-General says changes to bankruptcy administration will be made
in consultation with the industry and I believe the Insolvency Practitioners
Association will be making a submission. But I believe it would have been
appropriate to approach directly all stakeholders to facilitate the best outcome
for debtors, creditors and the administrators of the legislation.
Dennis Turner is a registered trustee in bankruptcy and partner
specialising in insolvency and reconstruction with PKF Chartered Accountants and
Business Advisers, Melbourne. <!-- articleBody -->
|
|
Im_out
|
329#
|
Registered:02/01/2009
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 23:12:33)
Pastor Glenn Duker's $60 million debtKen Vernon | November 2nd, 2009 http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2009/11/02/154355_gold-coast-news.html Glenn Duker THE trail of debts left in the wake of Gold Coast Pentecostal pastor Glenn Duker and his wife Lorilea has grown to more almost $60 million as creditors desperately pick over the bones of their collapsed housing empire. The massive debt could make the pair the biggest bankrupts in Australian history. Glenn Duker was a leader of the Gold Coast branch of the Christian fundamentalist sect Revival Centres International, but he had another side -- buying and selling houses -- often with money borrowed from his flock. Now, it seems, some of the flock have been fleeced. A feature of RCI is that it believes salvation comes from speaking in tongues; some Duker followers say he spoke to them with a forked tongue. Since fleeing the Gold Coast for the anonymity of Melbourne Duker and his wife have been examined by the Supreme Court for the first time since news of their extra-clerical activities astonished the Gold Coast last year -- and both have since filed for bankruptcy. However, getting to the bottom of the Duker empire has proved difficult for investigators. Although the Dukers are reportedly living the high life in Melbourne, still protected by their church, in his notification of bankruptcy Glenn duker listed debts totalling $34,287,411. His wife Lorilea listed assets of just $32 in cash, $767 superannuation, a Camp Hill house worth $650,000 on which $750,000 was still owed and a $675,000 West End flat on which $900,000 was owed. Her liabilities were estimated at $10 million. Liquidators are still trying to sift through the tangled and intricate web of companies that the Dukers operated in their many schemes. An initial liquidator's report said Mr Duker mainly utilised what are called 'joint venture agreements' (JVAs). A characteristic of such a scheme is that the 'partner' who sells his house, for instance, would remain -- often without precise knowledge -- the registered proprietor of the 'sold' property and at the same time the principle borrower on a mortgage, hence liable if for any reason the mortgage is not paid. <!-- Related Coverage --><script src="http://tools.goldcoast.com.au/yoursay/article_single_comment.php?154355" type=text/javascript></script><!-- end article-extras --> The 'owner' might also be liable for GST -- making them a debtor to the ATO. In many instances people entering such agreements with Mr Duker did not obtain independent legal and financial advice before signing agreements -- with members of his church saying this is because they did not believe their shepherd would lead them astray. According to Scott Bennison -- a chartered accountant acting for a group of Duker's former congregation who may lose their homes in the aftermath of the collapse of the Duker paper empire -- the pair formed joint venture partnerships with members of Duker's church to buy houses for resale. "A unique feature of the joint venture partnerships is that there is joint and several liability, and so these unsophisticated investors have been left with tax debts Duker ran up. "These tax debts are a result of Mr Duker and his associates establishing partnerships for tax purposes without the knowledge or consent of the investors." Mr Bennison said that at no stage did Duker's 'partners' understand they were liable to pay GST on the deals Duker conducted. They claim Duker misled them after they trusted him to do the right thing because he was their minister. According to Mr Bennison, part of the case against Duker is that he abused his position by acting as both solicitor and pastor for some of the victims. In legal precedent dating back to 1860 the relationship between a religious leader and disciples is said to be 'one of even greater influence than parent and child, guardian and ward or solicitor and client'. "He used this church network to promote his business against church policy," said Mr Bennison. "The senior pastors of the church were aware of his activities but did not stop him because some of them became involved, thereby concealing the breach of church policy and his abuse of position." According to a liquidator's report by Bruce Gleeson, of Jones Partners Chartered Accountants, there may be grounds for more serious legal action against Mr Duker, his wife Lorilea and his former company auditor, Allan Walker. Mr Gleeson's examination of the Dukers' affairs suggest they were trading while insolvent as far back as 2005 and that 'there are grounds to establish a case against the company directors'. The Revival church, which sprang up in Melbourne and has since spread overseas, says on its website: "We are a church of people who have come together following an amazing personal experience of the power and presence of God. Each individual church member has received the Holy Spirit with the same conclusive evidence accepted in Bible days -- we speak in other tongues." <script src="http://tools.goldcoast.com.au/feeds/feed_also_in.php?limit=20&url=local-gold-coast-news.xml&title=Gold Coast News" type=text/javascript></script>
|
|
Didaktikon
|
330#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To Im%5Fout
(Date Posted:02/11/2009 05:45:37)
Well, I wonder if Simon is ready to apologise to those hurt by this scandal yet?
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
outaegypt
|
331#
|
Rank:Poster Venti I

Score:6410
Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:02/11/2009 18:32:09)
To apologise would require Longfield to admit fault. Simon denied his knowledge of the Duker's activities in the Supreme Court, although Simon was informed of difficulties as early as 2000 by Ian Paske who could not get his funds returned and a list of others followed over the years. Simon having no 'said knowledge' would then be denying approaching Glenn Duker on behalf of investor and RCI member Richard Gaurenstrom on numerous occasions, even though there are witnesses to the contrary who are prepared to testify in court. Richard Gaurenstrom is said to not want to contradict Simon. He has 'allegedly' said to the Williams he wont say anything unless he is forced by subpoena to speak the truth in Court and only then will he speak the truth about Simon's assistance in forcing Glenn to release him (Gaurenstrom) from an investment property. Wouldn't that be the action of preferring the sins of the wicked in covering another mans sin? When did these people start putting lies before truth and Man before God. I don't know how God tolerates the sight of Man at times, when there is such disregard for his truth, their blatant lies so easily exposed but still no repentance or admission ever lone an apology! Only arrogance and the love of men can be seen, made even more intolerable from those that claim to have received an experience from the Holy Spirit in their lives. I suppose that's where the Lord will say "I KNOW YOU NOT"
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
|
|
Didaktikon
|
332#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To outaegypt
(Date Posted:02/11/2009 22:07:46)
Hi, OoE.
Indeed. Simon used to make great mileage from the statement, "I'll wait
until the umpire makes his decision"; shorthand for, "I don't want to
get involved"! Reactive rather than proactive shepherding. Reactive
rather than proactive leadership. And now it seems that "pastor"
Duker's investment "strategies" have made him quite possibly the
largest bankrupt in Australian history! $60,000,000! That's a
significant chunk of other people's change that he's squandered in financing his lifestyle!
I'm thankful that the media hasn't been backwards in very clearly identifying Duker's associations with the RCI. After all, one can't separate the two, and shouldn't separate the two.
Blessings,
Ian
-------------------------------------------------------------- Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Metanoian
|
333#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
Reply To outaegypt
(Date Posted:07/11/2009 04:07:25)
I suppose the courts could ultimately seize the personal assets of both Victor and Simon ?? Which could well happen if both persons are clearly implicated by the facts and found guilty of involvement in the scandal.... lets wait and see how the umpire blows his whistle.
M.
|
|
Metanoian
|
334#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:12/11/2009 00:09:40)
The ASIC boundary umpire has indeed blown his whistle and Duker's "independent" auditor has been ruled out of bounds:
"For the reasons set out above, we have decided to exercise our powers under s1292 of the Corporations Act and we order that the registration of Alan Gregory Walker as an auditor be cancelled .." (section 22 Audtors amd Liquidators Disciplinary Board 22:12:2008)
Metanoia
|
outaegypt
|
335#
|
Rank:Poster Venti I

Score:6410
Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:15/11/2009 06:54:08)
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/glimmer-of-hope-for-gold-coast-preachers-prey-20091114-ifk2.html <!--StartFragment--> Glimmer of hope for Gold Coast preacher's prey KATE DENNEHY November 15, 2009 - 6:08AM <!--[if gte vml 1]> Sue and Craig Williams of Runaway Bay ... $150,000 out of pocket. Photo: Michelle Smith Creditors of former Gold Coast solicitor and preacher Glenn Phillip Duker have a glimmer of hope of recouping some funds after his accountant and auditor was struck off last week. The Companies Auditors and Liquidators Disciplinary Board (CALDB) cancelled the auditor registration of Allan Gregory Walker following an application by the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC). Mr Walker, of Melbourne, worked as auditor for Mr Duker’s failed Gold Coast property development company, RVP Group Limited. The company went into liquidation last year owing 63 creditors more than $40 million. Mr Walker also worked as accountant for Mr Duker and his wife, Lorilea also a bankrupt. A damning ASIC report released last week found Mr Walker failed to carry out his duties in relation to the audit of RVP’s financial reports for the 2005 and 2006. The report said Mr Walker was: "an incompetent auditor who has demonstrated ignorance of or indifference to important statutory requirements and a lack of understanding of or indifference to rudimentary professional requirements," the report said. "ASIC submits that the protection of the public requires the cancellation of Mr Walker’s registration." Mr Walker had blamed investors who had lost their money of being ‘‘stupid’’. Many investors were also members of the Christian fundamenatlist church, Revival Centres International of which Mr Duker was a pastor. Accountant Scott Bennison who is also a member of the church took up the cause for some creditors, claiming Mr Walker had a conflict of interest. ASIC’s report agreed with Mr Bennison: "Mr Walker does not have an adequate understanding of or is indifferent to important standards of professional conduct relating, in particular, to independence and conflict of interests. We believe Mr Walker is not a competent auditor and he should not be allowed to continue auditing." Mr Bennison said the findings meant the company’s liquidator was in a stronger position to claim against Mr Walker’s insurance. "This means that creditors have a greater chance of receiving some money back," he said. Former church members and creditors, Sue and Craig Williams of Runaway Bay on the Gold Coast had been ostracised by the church for trying to get their $150,000 back. Mrs Williams said "the saga" continued to put emotional stress on her family. "Both Glenn Duker and Allan Walker tried to blame Craig (her husband) for the troubles with the company,’" she said. "The ASIC report is further confirmation that we have spoken the truth and eventually we hope people will be held accountable for their actions." Mr Walker could not be reached for comment. Mr Duker is reportedly working as a solicitor in Victoria. Source: The Sun-Herald <!--EndFragment-->
(Message edited by outaegypt On 15/11/2009 07:08:25)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
|
|
Metanoian
|
336#
|
Registered:13/06/2009
|
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:15/11/2009 14:03:00)
|
|
cultevasion
|
337#
|
Rank:Member IV

Score:1420
Posts:68
Registered:24/06/2006
|
Re:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:20/11/2009 04:28:05)
Matthew Ch 525Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee (Dukers, A. Walker, S. Longfield & V. Samoilenko) to the judge (Supreme Court), and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
-------------------------------------------------------------- cultivation leads to cultevasion -
don"t reap what they sow!
|
|
|