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Didaktikon
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1#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To EvilOutsider
(Date Posted:23/02/2009 14:40:09)
Good morning, Evil.
The Christian City Church? 'Yep', Phil Pringle's denomination. I fellowshipped with them for a year or two when we lived in Canberra. Perhaps more than any other Pente church that I've experienced, the CCC is into projecting the right 'image'. Given that they tend to aim themselves more towards the upper middle class 'market', they aren't shy when it comes to seeking money!
My advice is to be very cautious about the entire Pentecostal movement. Theologically misguided, spiritually shallow and doctrinally naive about sums things up. Far better to become grounded in a more 'conventional' Christian church.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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youngies_no_more
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2#
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Rank:Rookier IV
Score:2270
Posts:91
Registered:14/04/2007
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:24/02/2009 23:54:07)
Nothing wrong with Churches talking about money, and about giving ... Jesus talked about it, the Bible talks about it, so it's OK for Churches to talk about money and prosperity. However I do agree that there are some Churches that may over do it, but that doesn't make them cultish.
Some key ways to identify if a christianised religious group is cultish or not:
1. Do they believe they are the only true Church?
ANSWERS: GRC yes CCC no
2. Do they believe a different salvation to being saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?
ANSWERS: GRC yes CCC no
3. Is the head of the movement so holy that they don't submit to any other leadership?
ANSWERS: GRC yes CCC no
Just from these 3 simple questions is pretty clear to see that the GRC is a CULT and the CCC (Christian City Churches) is NOT a CULT.
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29 Jan 1992 - NH Hollins
"You need to do what your heart knows is right"
So I did, and quit the GRC that same night.
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EvilOutsider
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3#
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Rank:Member
Score:1080
Posts:48
Registered:09/11/2008
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:25/02/2009 05:34:24)
Ian,
Thanks for your response. I value your opinion as I have read a lot of your posts on here and know that you are highly knowledgable and your comments are always well considered. Cheers.
youngies,
I feel you may have misinterpreted my post. I was not concerned that the church was talking about donations - thats how churches operate. What I was concerned with was the church shaming its parishioners who had not donated that evening, denying God's blessing to those who did not donate that evning, and stating that one should donate to that church v's donating to the bushfire vicitms so as to get something in return! Now I'm not saying the CCC IS a cult. I am saying that blessings/salvation based on amount of donations IS cultic at worst and spiritually abusive at best.
There were other aspects in my mother's notes that appeared to be similar to traits of cults, but I would need to reexamine her notes - the conditional blessing was the thing that really stood out to me and got my blood boiling. It would certainly be interesting to attend and observe but I know I would want to stand up and enter a healthy debate with the pastor... not a great idea lol.
Cheers
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-- living in sin, and loving every minute!
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EvilOutsider
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4#
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Rank:Member
Score:1080
Posts:48
Registered:09/11/2008
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Re:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:25/02/2009 05:38:55)
one more thing...
I'm not saying the CCC is as extreme or as abusive as the GRC. But just because a church isnt extreme doesnt preclude it from being cultic. :)
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-- living in sin, and loving every minute!
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Didaktikon
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5#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To youngies%5Fno%5Fmore
(Date Posted:25/02/2009 15:13:04)
Good morning, YNM.
Nothing wrong with Churches talking about money, and about giving ... Jesus talked about it, the Bible talks about it, so it's OK for Churches to talk about money and prosperity.
To begin with, whilst Jesus certainly did have an awful lot to say about wealth and possessions (he spoke on this subject, perhaps, more than he did on any other excluding the Kingdom of God), what he had to say is poles removed from what many Western 'prosperity' churches have to say. And that, friend, is the issue.
I hope you won't be overly offended, but I found your 'three-step-what-is-a-cult' checklist to be rather ridiculous. That you could extrapolate those three points with respect to the CCC, to conclusively state what you have, is rather questionable. To begin with, you've altogether failed to adequately define the word 'cult'. In a religious sense, 'cult' doesn't mean what you would infer, which is why I've personally never referred to any of the Revivalist groups as 'cults'. Schismatic, sectarian and frequently 'loopy' aberrations of Christianity? 'Yes'. But 'cults'? 'No'.
God bless,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:25/02/2009 16:41:11)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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WestCoast
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7#
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Registered:26/01/2009
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:25/02/2009 16:55:16)
Hey all, I just started attending CCC not long ago after leaving Revival. Heres my take: I had to adjust at first coming out of Revival. Enjoyed the worship and the music, the talks are practical, simple, relevant, scriptures to go with it. Healing, Miracles, Deliverance, the presence of God. Awesome people, very uplifting. Tithing is emphasized quite a bit though. Heard a couple of things that seem iffy. "When Jesus was on earth people were getting healed slain in the spirit and born again" Hold Up! Jesus wasn't glorified then! Ok spose that's a little thing not worth getting worked up over. I guess to not expect the odd iffy is an unrealistic expectation in any church. That will happen, which is why 1 Corinthians 14:29 tells us to listen, discern whether whats being said is right or wrong. Guess with any church though its important to approach it with a sober mind and judgment. Overall I enjoy going to CCC, I find it very uplifting and encouraging, good fellowship. I don't get judged, and am free to come and go as I wish. Haven't been for a couple of week, doesn't bother me no guilt trip. Still get invited to stuff :)
I also accidentally stumbled into a Calvary Chapel Meeting. My first impression walking in was CULT. A nice lady handed me a Chorus book. Thought I would stay see how it went. The Choruses were very old, very uninspiring. No enthusiasm whatsoever just singing hymns out of a hymn book. Very decent and orderly. There was a testimony on the projector of a man in the states. The man was very enthusiastic and emotional. With the talks they go from one end of the bible to the other, picking off from where they last left off. They go in depth into the scriptures. I enjoyed hearing the word and going into the scriptures. Afterwards met the people and had some fellowship and a chat. They are quite Judgmental on "Alot of the churches out there" that they raise their hands and all that, their disorderly and dont follow what the bible says to do this that blah blah, how distracting the backing music is when trying to pray, and cant concentrate, and exaggerate how disorderly and unscriptural they are. Detected a tone of Bigotry, Pride, Arrogance. They claim to do things the bible way, but it seems legalistic. The Pastor was a bit Antagonistic.
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youngies_no_more
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8#
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Rank:Rookier IV
Score:2270
Posts:91
Registered:14/04/2007
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:26/02/2009 04:27:17)
TO Eviloutsider - Thanks for your reply, talking about money often upsets people, so it is a touchy area. As I said some Churches do overdo it on the money thing, but I would brand it cultish because of that. Best to just check it out for yourself, my reccomendation, if it's worth anything, if they talk to much about money and you don't agree with what they say about money then find a different Church that you agree with. I would have to say I agree with you that helping those in need should be our prioity, and I'm glad the 'pentecostal' Church I attend gave stacks toward the bush fire victims. TO Didaktikon - My three step guide to a cult I admit is very basic, I have done extensive studies on how to tell the difference between a christianised cult and a Christian Church. For the sake of the forum I decided to reduce it down to 3 simple steps to illistrate that GRC is dangerous as far as the gospel is concerned and what they do do people, and in my eyes is a christianised cult - CCC on the other hand while I may not agree with all it's minor teachings, it does preach the gospel and is a Christian Church. TO Westcoast - I am so glad that you found fellowship in a CCC Church, keep your eyes on Jesus!!! Bless you all,
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29 Jan 1992 - NH Hollins
"You need to do what your heart knows is right"
So I did, and quit the GRC that same night.
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Episkopeo
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9#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
Score:5700
Posts:267
Registered:30/08/2007
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:26/02/2009 06:39:49)
. In a religious sense, 'cult' doesn't mean what you would infer, which is why I've personally never referred to any of the Revivalist groups as 'cults'. Schismatic, sectarian and frequently 'loopy' aberrations of Christianity? 'Yes'. But 'cults'? 'No'.
God bless,
Ian
Ian, Neither do I call Rev. groups cults. They do nevertheless have some very cultish tendencies. Spiritual and emotional control, legalism, exclusiveness, submission and obedience, a fostered dependency, repressive regulations. separation, condemnation of other churches, lack of accountability etc etc etc, to list just a few. The list could go on. The RF have subtly modified much of the above to avoid appearing cultish. Epi
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EvilOutsider
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10#
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Rank:Member
Score:1080
Posts:48
Registered:09/11/2008
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Re:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:28/04/2009 08:38:38)
I'm curious, and I do not mean any offense by this question...
why have people chosen not to call these revival groups "cults"? I guess this questions is especially for those of you who acknoweldge the cultish traits of the group and have some level of understanding of what makes a cult, yet prefer not to call the group a cult. Please dont think I'm saying you should call it a cult- I'm just curious as to the reasons why you dont label it as such.
cheers
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-- living in sin, and loving every minute!
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Didaktikon
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11#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To EvilOutsider
(Date Posted:28/04/2009 17:27:49)
Good morning, Evil.
This is a contra-Revivalist site, so why would you expect there to be very much in the way of discussion about a non-Revivalist group?
Christian City Church is simply one in a long line of loopy Pente denominations. Caveat emptor.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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misterkilometres
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12#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3100
Posts:128
Registered:11/06/2008
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Reply to Evil Outsider
(Date Posted:28/04/2009 17:28:40)
Hello EO,
The following link is one written by a psychologist:
http://griess.st1.at/gsk/thediffe.doc
You probably know all of this but for I thought I would include it anyway, becauise I think it was reasonable well written and presents the cultic traits of revival quite well.
Personally, I myself am quite happy calling the RCI a cult, sect, and even the tares wich the enemy has sown. I will not call it a true church though.
Regards MrKlms
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“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
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EvilOutsider
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13#
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Rank:Member
Score:1080
Posts:48
Registered:09/11/2008
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Re:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:16/10/2009 04:03:12)
Ian - I didnt expect there to be much talk about CCC... hence I mentioned my post was "slightly off topic" in the title.
Misterkms - thanks for your reply. will check out the link!
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-- living in sin, and loving every minute!
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Didaktikon
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14#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31540
Posts:1514
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To EvilOutsider
(Date Posted:16/10/2009 18:07:01)
Good morning, 'Evil'.
What prompted your response, six months after my original reply?
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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EvilOutsider
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15#
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Rank:Member
Score:1080
Posts:48
Registered:09/11/2008
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Re:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:29/10/2009 07:16:27)
Hi Ian
I hadnt checked the forum in about 6 months. was bored one evening and thinking of osmething to do so thought i'd pop back in and see whats been happening :)
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-- living in sin, and loving every minute!
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WestCoast
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16#
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Registered:26/01/2009
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:08/11/2009 07:56:52)
Hey all. Yeah its been a while, but Im still going to C3, been going for nearly a year. Im just gonna speak about the congregation I go to because all of them are different with their own different flavour/culture/ministry. Hey its not perfect, it does have its problems. We have a lot of teenagers, and this is south auckland, theres all sorts of crap happening here. So yeah Ive had people I dont get along with, Ive seen gossiping and backstabbing, Ive had people offend me, and Ive thought of leaving church.
Then again, some of these same people I have seen backstabbing and gossiping, and who have offended me, I have seen god turn them around. Some of the people who are leaders now had been in church and struggling for years with things before they got their big breakthrough and now they are just powerful men and women of god. Now they are making a stand for the things of god, they are seeking him, saying no to things that are not good, and have just given themselves to god, and they are living the most happy and fullfilled lives.
Our leaders here are always encouraging us with the right message, but its up to us to accept it, they cant make us do it, its up to us. Our walk with god is a process, we all have faults, we are all struggling with something. I can tell you, I know whats been said, I know its the truth, I know its from the word of god. I want to do it but its hard for me because Im slack, I need to make an effort, a sacrifice, its not between me and any church, but between me and my god. I mean I struggle just to pray most the time. But thats where Im at in my walk.
But truth be told I love this church, this is where my heart and my calling is. Our congregation as I whole, I have seen it grow closer together as a family, and I have seen the people grow in Christ and grow in love for one another. The leadership is awesome, their message is spot on, and yeah their job is not an easy one. So yea our leadership is just really calling for discipleship, for leaders, people who dont want to go with the crowd. I think this is a really awesome vision, and its only the begginning.
Through and through the church is awesome, but yeah because its a big church and you get heaps of different people coming all the time, you get some weirdos (sorry if im sounding judgemental) your gonna get issues and frictions, but you gotta overcome all that. This isnt a cult, this is real life, these are real people with real issues, not a bunch of robots. I have been coming along for a while, and hey Ive had struggles in my walk, but Ive had alot of support and love from people.
Yo Evil, in regards to your first post. Mostly the tithing messages Ive heard have been good, but yeah a couple of times I have heard stuff like that. All I can say is that just from observing and knowing the different people over time even leaders and mature believers can get carried away and miss the point. And Ive seen all this stuff happen, we get preached on it also and Ive found myself missing the point sometimes. So yeah thats why its soo important to have people in the church who can discern.
And yeah through my time at C3 South Center, Auckland New Zealand, Ive really learnt what its like inside and out. The good and the ugly, and I just lay it all before you as honestly and as fully as I can. Even though it has its good and ugly, at the same time I understand it. I mean if one or two people phase you, or you hear something thats off, you could either leave and go somewhere else, ignore it, or do something about it. This is something Ive had to learn, and I have the freedom in Christ to do so.
Ultimately the vision, the purpose is to reach this nation, this world for Christ, to be a shining light in this world, and thats a vision I want to be a part of. At the end of the day, thats what its about. Not the money, not the building, not the fancy lighting. Its been a long post, and my grammar and english sucks but I hope you guys understand where Im coming from, god bless you all :).
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Metanoian
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17#
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Registered:13/06/2009
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Reply To WestCoast
(Date Posted:08/11/2009 15:27:57)
Reply to WestCoast (and Ian's regular blogmate  )
M
(Message edited by Metanoian On 08/11/2009 15:40:45)
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WestCoast
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18#
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Registered:26/01/2009
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:08/11/2009 20:04:08)
Cheers mate, Ive honestly just been struggling with that.
(Message edited by WestCoast On 08/11/2009 20:13:52)
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Galien
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19#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
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RE:Slightly off topic - City Christian Churches? Cultic?
(Date Posted:08/11/2009 20:54:28)
West Coast,
Cheers mate, Ive honestly just been struggling with that.
I struggled with it for nine years in revival and ten in a Pentecostal church. For me it isn't so much that the church isn't perfect, I don't expect perfection, because I am certainly far from it.
Guess I just would like my tribe to be christians, but the more I try to understand them, the harder it gets.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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