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tommo
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1#
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Rank:Member IV
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 17:08:31)
Hi Ian,
Would you please define "Salvation". What do you interpret that word to mean?
Tommo
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Didaktikon
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2#
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Reply To tommo
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 17:22:52)
Good morning, Thommo.
Would you please define "Salvation". What do you interpret that word to mean?
There are several Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated as "save" and its cognates into English (with each having it's own nuances), so it's always necessary to consider each biblical passage on it's own merits in order to properly establish what is intended in each specific case. However, by way of an overarching definition of sorts, "salvation" might be thought of as encapsulating the notion of "preservation from harm", whether physical or spiritual.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 17:28:55)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Galien
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3#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:02:42)
Ian
In my opinion one of the basest of errors propagated by Revivalism is the mistaken view that "salvation" is a strictly "personal" matter. It's my position that such an erroneous perspective owes more to the Western penchant for "individualism" than it does to the biblical witness, and that as such it's a particularly dangerous and destructive approach, spiritually. And I offer here and now that Luke's writings provide a very good starting point for considering the matter in detail.
What actual evidence do you have for your opinion, and are you comfortable discounting the personal spiritual experiences of millions? What evidence do you have that your soulless, loveless, legalistic idea of christianity was what god had in mind?
Galien
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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4#
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:12:27)
Galien,
I appreciate that objective, dispassionate consideration of Scripture is largely beyond you, so I suggest that you sit back, keep quiet and simply observe. As this thread unfolds I've no doubt that you will learn a thing or several. However, if you're unable to contain yourself, then try injecting something other than invective into the discussion.
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 19:18:17)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Galien
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5#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:31:10)
I appreciate that objective, dispassionate consideration of Scripture is largely beyond you, so I suggest that you sit back, keep quiet and simply observe. As this thread unfolds I've no doubt that you will learn a thing or several. However, if you're unable to contain yourself, then try injecting something other than invective into the discussion.
Not invective, I believe it to be a fair question. I do nothing in a dispassionate manner. It's part of my natural charm. I had more than enough of dispassionate EVERYTHING in revival. It was a wonder I didn't die of sheer bvoredom, although I remember many evenings sitting in the loungeroom of other assembly members thinking "if I have to have this bloody boring conversation ONE MORE TIME!".
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Heregoes
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6#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:40:17)
So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?
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Didaktikon
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7#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:42:07)
Galien,
Not everything that takes place on this forum has to be about you. This particular thread is intended to generate discussion on an issue that's significant from a Revivalist perspective. Consequently, it's not meant to serve simply as "grist" for your "hate mill".
If you decide that you can't abide by the forum guidelines, or the intent of this particular thread, then I will simply have to "vote you off the island". Try to understand that you aren't the pivot around which everything else hinges.
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 19:52:32)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Talmid
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8#
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:44:51)
Galien
At the risk of being accused of toadying to Ian, I'd like to point out that "your soulless, loveless, legalistic idea of christianity " is most definitely invective.
(Message edited by Talmid On 24/08/2009 19:45:49)
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Didaktikon
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9#
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Reply To Heregoes
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:51:38)
Good morning, HG.
So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?
What I'm suggesting is that much of the rhetoric that we, Western Christians espouse, is simply rhetoric. A good many of us (for example) are quite "hazy" when it comes to being able to describe a biblical theology or even a biblical model of "salvation". We often resort to pat, but altogether nonsensical statements that talk about "inviting Jesus into your heart", or "you can have a personal experience of God". Such statements emphasise and promote strictly the individual aspects of a "saving" relationship with God in Christ, but which pay absolutely no heed to the equally critical communal aspects.
Revivalists, however, are often even less informed about the issue then are Christians. "Meeting the Lord in the air" seems to be Longfeldian code for, "perhaps you will be 'saved', but we really don't know". The aim of this thread is to tease out (principally) what Luke had to say on the subject.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 20:40:32)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
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Galien
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10#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 19:57:37)
Galien,
Not everything that takes place on this forum has to be about you. This particular thread is intended to generate discussion on an issue that's significant from a Revivalist perspective. Consequently, it's not meant to serve simply as "grist" for your "hate mill".
No, and I have no hate mill. I just always thought salvation was by grace, through faith. You seem to be saying that there are "corporate elements" we have to achieve for such free salvation to be confirmed, and without which salvation is not present. Is this correct?
If you decide that you can't abide by the forum guidelines, or the intent of this particular thread, then I will simply have to "vote you off the island". Try to understand that you aren't the pivot around which everything else hinges.
Yeah I know,there are some questions that should never be asked, I learned that in revial. But you know if I dont ask them someone else will. And Ian the last thing I think about ANYTHING is that it pivots around me.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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11#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 20:05:59)
Galien,
No, and I have no hate mill. I just always thought salvation was by grace, through faith. You seem to be saying that there are "corporate elements" we have to achieve for such free salvation to be confirmed, and without which salvation is not present. Is this correct?
Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual? Second, 'salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price. Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Galien
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12#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 20:14:37)
Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual?
Who says it isn't and why would you think it wasn't, and further, why have I not heard of this concept before?
Salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price.
One that was paid by christ, in my understanding
Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.
What has led you to this conclusion?
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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13#
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 20:23:26)
Galien,
Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual?
Who says it isn't and why would you think it wasn't, and further, why have I not heard of this concept before?
Scripture; Scripture; probably because you'd never received decent biblical teaching before.
Salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price.
One that was paid by christ, in my understanding
Indeed. A debt paid at the cost of a brutal death on a Roman cross can hardly be thought of as "free".
Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.
What has led you to this conclusion?
Scripture. And that's the whole point of this thread. Now why don't you pause for a bit, mull over what's been said thus far, and let someone else have a turn?
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Fremde
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14#
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Rank:Regular Member
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 20:39:35)
Good morning Ian,
One of the great attractions to Pentecostalism is the personal experience, it's all about ME. God has to obey a set of rules, which include making ME feel alright, heal MY hurts, prospering ME, allowing ME, and MY ways, because he understands the way I AM, and no matter what I do doesn't matter, because he forgives ME.
Whereas the Old Testament (Our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ - Galatians 3:24) and the New, in actual fact stress repentance and obedience to God first, and loving our neighbour as ourselves, which of course involves the corporate of which you have spoken emphatically many times....dare I say taught, for you are indeed a teacher.
The ME generation, was preceded by the FREE WILL generation (as per, "Talkin' 'bout my Generation" by "The Who"), which of course was indeed my generation, and rebellion turned into licentious sin, which was accepted because it felt pleasurable, and if it felt pleasurable it was therefore deemed to be good.
Salvation became a NOW experience. I am saved NOW. I did something that sealed my salvation (repented and was baptised, or accepted Jesus as my personal saviour et al), so I had arrived and was SAFE. Then reality hit and Satan having lead us up the garden path, left us bewildered and dismayed. Why? Because salvation the Pentecostal or Revivalist way, is not God's way. Salvation is an on going process. Among other scriptures, 1 Corinthians 3 gives a real good explanation of such, with verse 15 being a focal point.
It's not about ME, it's about GOD and JESUS, then US, then me (unemphasised).
Matthew 6:24 to 34)..... take no thought for your life.....seek ye first the Kingdom of God........then jump on to a verse a little bit further on, Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
When? Now and ongoing ..... or one will prove to be one of the nonGod'swilldoers (James 1:22). Salvation is an ongoing thing, not flash in the pan.
John
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Didaktikon
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15#
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Reply To Fremde
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 20:49:06)
Good afternoon, John.
Indeed. What I find remarkable is that many Christians either don't know, or simply ignore, the fact that the Old Testament was the Scripture of the first Church. Furthermore, that Christianity itself was birthed from the matrix of Israel's experience of God. Given that the entire Old Testament itself bespeaks a corporate/communal "saving" relationship with and of God, how is it that modern Western Christians are, bye-and-large, completely ignorant of this critical fact? Or it's implication for us, today. That the promise was that God's Spirit would no longer dwell with Israel corporately, but in Israel corporately! That is, from Yahad/Qahal to Ekklesia/Kyriakon!
I have to agree with the broad contours of your estimation of the "me" focus that's prevalent not only in our society, but also our churches. As an aside it's interesting to note the robust change in perspective from the older magisterial hymns (You Lord/us), to the newer Hill$ong-inspired fluff-and-nonsense (I/me) that seems almost all-pervasive nowadays.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 21:17:12)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Heregoes
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16#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 22:29:04)
So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?
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Heregoes
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17#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 22:30:10)
oops, sorry. Didn't mean to post that again. Please ignore above post
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Didaktikon
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18#
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Reply To Heregoes
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 22:38:36)
Hi again, HG.
Don't sweat the re-send, as it's given me an opportunity to further develop the theme. Ultimately, I'd suggest that any "rhetoric", statement or claim to the effect that Christian "salvation" can occur without a corporate/communal aspect or trajectory, quite simply, isn't biblical. One needs to reflect on what Scripture both states and infers with respect to what "salvation", ultimately, "is". And I might be so bold as to suggest, here, that it's not simply about "having one's personal sins forgiven".
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 24/08/2009 22:45:40)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Metanoian
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19#
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Registered:13/06/2009
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 23:39:00)
Reply to Didaktikon
Good afternoon, John.
Indeed. What I find remarkable is that many Christians either don't know, or simply ignore, the fact that the Old Testament was the Scripture of the first Church. Furthermore, that Christianity itself was birthed from the matrix of Israel's experience of God. Given that the entire Old Testament itself bespeaks a corporate/communal "saving" relationship with and of God, how is it that modern Western Christians are, bye-and-large, completely ignorant of this critical fact? Or it's implication for us, today. That the promise was that God's Spirit would no longer dwell with Israel corporately, but in Israel corporately! That is, from Yahad/Qahal to Ekklesia/Kyriakon!
I have to agree with the broad contours of your estimation of the "me" focus that's prevalent not only in our society, but also our churches. As an aside it's interesting to note the robust change in perspective from the older magisterial hymns (You Lord/us), to the newer Hill$ong-inspired fluff-and-nonsense (I/me) that seems almost all-pervasive nowadays.
Blessings,
Ian
Ianos, you are indeed correct again..
..... and the first Christians were Jews - hence one major reason why "modern" Christians and in particularly current and former folk from the Revivalist groups such as your friend "Lukey" completely miss the context of Acts Chapter 2 altogether.. But Ianos, I had to give myself a good slap "up the side of the head" and realize that the context of Acts Chapter 2 begins in Luke 24 and not Acts 1 at all... ... and to add joy to your story, I caused a minor ruckus at lecture last night steadfastly defending your/our position on the 'ton endeka apostolon' antecedent of 'esan' but alas for the opposers, I had my Greek Text with me...  And I don't say this to flatter you but out of due respect I must say that you're awesome dude !!
cheerios Ianos
Metanoia
PS - you've guessed it the "opposers" are pentes... 
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Didaktikon
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20#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:24/08/2009 23:58:03)
Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has bathed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.” Then he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” But those who were at the table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
The above passage is taken from the Gospel According to Luke, chapter seven, verses 44 through 50. It recounts the words of Jesus, spoken in the company of others, but directed to a woman who acted in faith. It includes the key theological words "faith", "saved", and "peace". It also very clearly records the fact that Jesus specifically stated that the woman's sins are forgiven.
Our account demonstrates the concrete effects of the gospel event upon an individual who believes. Given what I've proposed about "salvation", as such was understood by Luke the Evangelist, what can we determine from both the generalities and specifics of this encounter with the pre-crucified Lord? (Some hints: consider her sex, the timing and location of the occurrence, the social situation in which the events took place, and how they would have been perceived by those in attendance).
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 25/08/2009 00:25:56)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Didaktikon
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21#
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Reply To Metanoian
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 00:19:39)
Hi, Eric.
Well I'm certainly glad that you were able to demonstrate to your peers, and successfully defend, the church's historic position on what took place at Pentecost. However, I would ask you (again) to tone down a little, the kudos that you sling my way every now and then. I don't really need the acclaim, and I'm afraid that it often plays into the hands of certain "nay-sayers".
Thanks, and blessings.
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 25/08/2009 00:23:36)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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prezy
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22#
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Rank:Regular User
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 00:47:29)
Stating the obvious is our savation is through genuine love for Jesus the Christ. In this example we see the woman not just believe in Him but act out her faith. One little aside in my KJV it states "her sins which ARE many". Your version states WERE, which not knowing the Greek leaves me unsure og the correct translation, but yours makes more sense. Its interesting this woman is totaly saved, totaly forgiven and no mention of baptism or speaking in tongues. All is possible through Christ. I am a pretty simple sort of fella but I have learnt following Christ first through the Bible is the way to salvation, and a content time in this part of our jouney on earth.
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person........
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prezy
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23#
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Rank:Regular User
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 00:55:07)
Just a question. I thought I would slip it in here as it is salvation related in the Book of Acts written by Luke. In ch10 Cornelius the centurian who God used, a devout man. What for want of a better word, was his religion?
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person........
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Sh0es
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24#
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Registered:21/01/2009
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 01:19:59)
As much as the issue of Salvation seems muddled in many Arminian denominations, so does the concept of Eternity. There is a disproportionate focus on "Heaven" at the expense of the "New Heaven & Earth". It seems to me, to again elevate the individual's importance over that of God's plan.
Ian, on the similar issue of Justification, could you flesh out what you see as the difference between "Righteousness" and "making your election sure"?
Do you see righteousness as the final judgement brought into the present, do "works" have an effect on making your election sure and is Righteousness only imputed?
If these questions take the thread off course, please ignore these questions on Justification.
Thank you,
Shoes
(Message edited by Sh0es On 25/08/2009 01:38:59)
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Didaktikon
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25#
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Reply To Sh0es
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 02:12:44)
Shoes,
We'll touch on justification soon enough, but one needs to lay the foundation before one starts the brickwork.
Rob,
Cornelius followed Judaism, but as a "God-fearer" rather than as a Roman "converted" Jew.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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prezy
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26#
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Rank:Regular User
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 02:40:49)
Thanks Ian, its nice to read scripture and be able to somehow picture in your head what its talking about. Need all the pieces of the puzzle to put the picture together.
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person........
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Didaktikon
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27#
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Reply To prezy
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 17:03:48)
Good morning, Rob.
Stating the obvious is our salvation is through genuine love for Jesus the Christ. In this example we see the woman not just believe in Him but act out her faith.
I think it important to point out that the issue of "love" is actually reversed when it comes to salvation: we can be saved through Christ's genuine love for us. Our love for him grows as a response to the fact that "...he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Your second point is quite valid, in that "belief" and "faith" are inextricably linked. In fact, the two Greek words are based on the same root, with "believe" being the verbal form and "faith" being the noun. Important to understand from a theological perspective, in the New Testament we very frequently find the Greek word for "believe" being linked with the Greek preposition for "in" followed by either Jesus or God as the object. In normal Greek usage, the preposition that follows would ordinarily be "that". So the Christian "believes in Jesus as Christ"; rather than simply "believing that Jesus is Christ". The distinction, and the outcome which results, is significant!
One little aside in my KJV it states "her sins which ARE many". Your version states WERE, which not knowing the Greek leaves me unsure og the correct translation, but yours makes more sense.
For what it's worth, the additional commentary in the KJV isn't original.
Its interesting this woman is totaly saved, totaly forgiven and no mention of baptism or speaking in tongues.
Indeed. But then again, Revivalists have no real conception of what is meant by the term "salvation": it's intent, scope or limitations. I'd like to pose a few questions in order to advance this discussion a little. Do you think Jesus was making a statement about the woman's eternity, or her temporal circumstances? And second, what do you think would have been the reaction of the people who heard Jesus' words? How would they have been affected, and what should have been the outcome?
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 25/08/2009 17:11:29)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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prezy
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28#
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Rank:Regular User
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 17:56:53)
Good morning Ian, I think that Jesus was refering to the woman's eternal state? I think the affect on the others that heard Jesus' words would hopefully be that they would leave their works/law type of worship for a more sacrificial love to Jesus that their sins may also be forgivin.
regards Rob.
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person........
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Didaktikon
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29#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To prezy
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 18:13:55)
Hi again, Robb.
Okay. What indications in the text led you to believe that Jesus had in mind the woman's eternal state? And based on the text itself, who were the people (or what sorts of people) were in the company that Jesus was enjoying when he addressed this situation? You may recall that I indicated at the start of this thread, that Luke had a specific interest in the corporate/communal effects of "salvation". Using this premise as a point-of-departure, what kinds of reactions/conclusions do you think Luke might have been hoping to tease out?
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Fremde
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30#
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Rank:Regular Member
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 20:49:42)
Good afternoon Ian,
My take on the times and thinking is that eternal salvation might well have been debated Pharisee to Sadducee, but the woman outside of those educated debates, would probably have perceived that Jesus was saying the her faith, belief in his "ability" by the power of God, had absolved her sins, here and now, like a temple sacrifice, not forthwith or eternally.
Jesus opened up the eternal salvation concept however at other times by more elaborate statements such as "I am the resurrection and the life, whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25 ESV).
John
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Didaktikon
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Reply To Fremde
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 21:05:42)
Hi, John.
A wise observation. Any thoughts on the other aspects that I questioned?
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 25/08/2009 21:09:55)
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:04:19)
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Didaktikon
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Reply To Seguidor
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:12:34)
Hi, Ralph.
Are you sure?
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:19:11)
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Didaktikon
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Reply To Seguidor
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:29:47)
Ralph,
Far better to exercise discernment when you read "commentary", and think "bigger picture". I'd like to hear what you think, not what you think the editors of a study Bible think. After all, I've been asking different questions to those that they addressed.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 25/08/2009 22:33:03)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
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prezy
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:36:44)
Hi Ian, been out cutting wood and havn't really read passage properly but I am thinking along the lines of that Jesus was not in a position to save the woman from eathly law and in c7v50 when he states"Thy faith hath saved thee" I am thinking he is talking more about her eternal salvation. Also more on the theme of Gentile and Jew both being able to enter into god's salvation. This is corporate to some extent?Will study it in a bit more detail tonight. Thanks Rob
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person........
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 22:44:27)
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Didaktikon
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Reply To Seguidor
(Date Posted:25/08/2009 23:55:31)
Hi, Ralph.
Don't be discouraged. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much, nor would I automatically assume that what I (i.e. 'you') shared was wrong. The fact is, that meaning in Scripture is often polyvalent: the results one gets depends entirely on the questions one asks, a little like peeling an onion, one layer at a time.
Keep thinking, keep sharing and (like me) you'll keep learning.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 26/08/2009 06:21:41)
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RevivalDemeritPoints
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39#
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:26/08/2009 06:27:20)
Ok, thought I’d give this a burl…
undoubtedly Ian, you will correct me where I've erred, or have detoured off the subject at hand ;)
The woman’s faith in Jesus Christ, which she had expressed through her works of love (ie kissing Jesus’ feet and anointing them with perfume etc) saved her from the (eternal) penalty of her multitude of sins up to that particular point in time?
Therefore, it was ‘saved’ in the context of spiritual as opposed to physical harm and therefore eternal as opposed to temporal 'salvation'.…(?)
As the woman was forgiven much, (even more considering the context back then that she was a woman and even less worthy/ deserving of such?) she loved Jesus all the more, and acted accordingly, (we could see she had faith in him before Jesus even said it because of her described actions).
I believe Luke was teasing out the whole idea, that if we have faith in Jesus we will act out that faith in works of love towards others ie. serving one another in the body of Christ, in particular: the corporate bit… I think?
ie. Just like in Luke 10 v25-
..The parable of the good Samaritan, where an expert in the law of Moses asks Jesus “What must I do to have eternal life?”, and Jesus responds “what do the scriptures say? How do you understand them?” to which the man answers (v27) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind”, and “Love your neighbour as yourself” (again, expressing eternal salvation's corporate focus) Jesus then answers “You have answered correctly, Do this and you will live” (NIV) – or in the CEV, “and you will have eternal life”. So, we can see how eternal salvation does not depend upon just our individual selves acting alone trying to impress God and please him by loving just him alone but rather it is corporate in that it also depends on how we interact/care/show love/use our gifts to serve others: or rather as in Paul’s address to the Galatians: Gal 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love which is further expounded upon in verse 13 (same chpt) .. You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbour as yourself.
Jesus then tells her to go in peace.. the peace that her sins have been forgiven and she has been saved from their penalty.
RDP
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Didaktikon
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Reply To RevivalDemeritPoints
(Date Posted:26/08/2009 17:24:49)
Good morning, RDP.
Ok, thought I’d give this a burl …undoubtedly Ian, you will correct me where I've erred, or have detoured off the subject at hand.
Well, I wonder if that's even going to be necessary.
The woman’s faith in Jesus Christ, which she had expressed through her works of love (ie kissing Jesus’ feet and anointing them with perfume etc) saved her from the (eternal) penalty of her multitude of sins up to that particular point in time? Therefore, it was ‘saved’ in the context of spiritual as opposed to physical harm and therefore eternal as opposed to temporal 'salvation'.…(?)
As you very rightly pointed out, the woman's faith was expressed through an act of deferential service. It would've taken incredible courage for her to approach Jesus, given the company that he was in, and the state that she was in (ergo she must have recognised in Jesus someone who not only could but would make a difference to her circumstances). Now whether or not the "salvation" was eternal or temporal, or perhaps eternal and temporal, we'll consider shortly.
As the woman was forgiven much, (even more considering the context back then that she was a woman and even less worthy/ deserving of such?) she loved Jesus all the more, and acted accordingly, (we could see she had faith in him before Jesus even said it because of her described actions).
Absolutely.
I believe Luke was teasing out the whole idea, that if we have faith in Jesus we will act out that faith in works of love towards others ie. serving one another in the body of Christ, in particular: the corporate bit… I think?
That sounds reasonable. However, I also believe the emphasis on this passage is canted more towards the woman's hope of being included in the "corporate safety" that Jesus spoke of and taught about. Given that the Pharisees taught and practiced social exclusion, but Jesus taught and practiced social inclusion, I'd think the woman was trusting in him to be able to make a change that would directly impact her personal circumstances. That she would no longer be treated (due to her sins) as an outsider within the community, and therefore under the ban.
Jesus then tells her to go in peace ... the peace that her sins have been forgiven and she has been saved from their penalty.
Absolutely! The "kickers" are the three "trigger" words: faith, saved and peace. The Jews understood their corporate relationship with God to be based on their keeping faith with him, which led to his saving them (the Exodus being the capstone example), which resulted in peace established between the people and God. In fact, the entire Jewish religion (and its subsequent Christian development) has as its ultimate aim, the "shalom of God". Critical in our example is the fact that when Jesus said, "your faith has saved you", the Greek word translated "saved" appears in the perfect aspect, indicative mood. This implies that the benefits of the saving act continued undiminished from that point forwards, and into the woman's future! Our courageous lady had hoped that our Lord would secure for her that which she desperately lacked: identification with, and the safety that accompanied, inclusion in the corporate worshipping community of Israel. Jesus certainly extended to her inclusion in a believing community, but also something far, far greater: the expiation of her personal sins, and subsequent peace with God!
You've done very well!
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 26/08/2009 17:35:26)
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spitchips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:26/08/2009 19:02:01)
Hi Ian
In my thinking, the woman therefore desperately wanted to belong to the visible and the invisible community of God.
Chips
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Didaktikon
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Reply To spitchips
(Date Posted:26/08/2009 19:06:20)
Good morning, Chips.
In my thinking, the woman therefore desperately wanted to belong to the visible and the invisible community of God.
Unfortunately, the idea of there being an invisible community of God is altogether anachronistic: the concept simply didn't exist in Judaism (or early Christianity, for that matter). To be a part of the community of God meant to be a part of the visible community.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 26/08/2009 19:07:49)
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spitchips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:26/08/2009 19:17:27)
Ah, of course.
That's the point I often miss - putting myself back there in time and space. The community was literal.
Chips
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Fremde
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 07:27:18)
My apologies Ian,
I did not ignore your last post to me, I was pondering on the scripture further and then had to absent myself due to work staff issues and taking Rocky my dog to the Melbourne Uni Vet Hospital at Werribee, a long way to travel but being a teaching facility they have everything diagnostic one would want. Sadly our beloved pooch has malignant internal growths and to our relief Sophie the head vet told us that we could not have detected anything amiss any earlier than we did. He's home with us on pain relief till the final pathology report comes in .... and then? We are not confident that he can be treated or will recover. He's 12 which is getting old for his breed. We adopted him at 7 from the pound. He is an incredibly funny dog and even the head vet and her students remarked on how lovable he is. I got to thinking about how he is just one more incredible blessing God has given us. However, there is a time to be born and a time to die, for everything.
RDPs analysis of the scripture and your reply was most edifying. Your context lessons have my old brain trying to catch up. Rote learning and proof texting sure hasn't helped a lot of folk grow, but the trouble is that unless one lets go of scriptural bad habits, or more pointedly, knows to let go of scriptural bad habits, ignorance abounds and the meatier thing of God's word are never savoured.
Thank you for persevering with me and many, many others, again I am sorry that we have often tried you to your limits.
Blessings,
John
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Galien
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 16:00:49)
John,
Sorry to hear about Rocky. Our pets become members of our family. Sounds like he has given you much joy.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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Reply To Fremde
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 16:14:04)
Good morning, John.
I'm happy to have been able to help. After all, you're my brother in Christ, so why wouldn't I persevere with you? Also, I'm saddened to learn of your pooch's health issues. For what it's worth, I reckon old Rocky would be happy with the way his life worked out.
God bless,
Ian
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Didaktikon
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 16:57:35)
Good morning, all.
Our first example, Luke 7:44-50 introduced the idea that "salvation" involves preservation from both physical as well as spiritual harm, and has personal as well as corporate axes. In other words to Luke the Evangelist the entire concept of what it means to be "saved" is far broader and deeper than Revivalists can even begin to imagine! In this post, I'd like to consider another example, this time drawn from chapter eight, verses 44 through 56. My aim is one of comparison, to see whether Luke was internally consistent in what he proposed.
She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his clothes, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped. Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?’’ When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and press in on you.” But Jesus said, “Someone touched me; for I noticed that power had gone out from me.” When the woman saw that she could not remain hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before him, she declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”
While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer.” When Jesus heard this, he replied, “Do not fear. Only believe, and she will be saved.” When he came to the house, he did not allow anyone to enter with him, except Peter, John, and James, and the child’s father and mother. They were all weeping and wailing for her; but he said, “Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then he directed them to give her something to eat. Her parents were astounded; but he ordered them to tell no one what had happened.
The first pericope of our translation above lacks the English word "save" reading instead, "has made you well". However, the underlying Greek text uses precisely the same form of the verb, "save", that we encountered in chapter seven, verse 50: the perfect aspect, indicative mood form sesōken! Consequently, lexical context makes it clear that "salvation/restoration" is what Luke had in mind; that it took place due to the woman's faith; the end result being peace with God! According to Jewish law a woman's menstrual flow rendered her ritually unclean for a period of days. In such a state, she "defiled" everyone who came into contact with her, and so was unable to partake in the corporate, social and worship life of the community. Imagine the effects of such separation on someone who was perpetually unclean! Jesus' actions in forgiving her, and healing her, saved her by restoring her to the corporate, worshiping community! Would anyone care to offer their thoughts on our passage, perhaps as to why the forgiveness of sins isn't explicitly mentioned, for example?
Our second pericope involved the physical resurrection of a child in the presence of her parents and Jesus' three closest disciples. Note our Saviour's promise: "believe and she will be saved". In this instance the verb "save" appears in the future aspect, indicative mood. In other words, if her parents didn't fear but believed in Jesus, their daughter would be restored to them. How should we understand this encounter, especially in light of the one immediately prior? And would anyone care to offer their thoughts on the fact of the laughter (or mocking), and Jesus' subsequent actions? Further, would anyone like to share on the meaning (and implications) of "salvation" in this instance?
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 27/08/2009 17:41:38)
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Fremde
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 19:14:18)
Good Friday morning to you Ian,
I cannot express how much your last reply has touched me........
I have a few "fights" on my hands right now and your words firstly spoken are indeed like "apples of gold in pictures of silver".
I will I hope to have time this weekend to meditate on your latest "brain (and heart) teaser".
You know of my liking for music. I thought this song is good accompaniment to the topic.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBllkET-yHQ
Agape in Christ,
John
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Fremde
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RE:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 19:15:27)
whoops I meant "fitly spoken"
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Salvation according to Luke
(Date Posted:27/08/2009 22:50:46)
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