Re The Age article "The Preacher who preyed for gain."
Quote from article "It is not illegal for pastors to invest, BUT IT BROKE A DECADES-OLD CHURCH RULE banning members from doing business with other church members - a rule which, according to the Australian Securities and Investments Çommission, discouraged many from airing the problems".
This is a perfect example of the rules BEING BROKEN FROM THE TOP and it's not an isolated case. I have heard of one other similar case, but not to this extent.
Property-dealing pastor Glenn Duker on the Gold Coast last week.
Michael Bachelard
June 8, 2008
IN CHRISTIAN doctrine, the love of money might be the root of all evil, but that didn't stop fundamentalist preacher Glenn Duker wanting lots of it, and fast.
Six years ago, the Melbourne solicitor and soon-to-be pastor at the Christian fundamentalist church, Revival Centres International, signed up as a disciple of the discredited get-rich-quick property spruiker Henry Kaye, graduating from Kaye's "Financial Mastery Boot Camp".
The apparently studious, God-fearing man — "straight out of Sunday school," says a former employee — set about putting Kaye's prescriptions into action, quitting his Melbourne law practice to become a Gold Coast property developer. Promising big returns, he recruited members of his own church, even fellow pastors, to invest in his scheme.
Four years later, it seemed Duker had made it. He and his wife, Lorilea, had a $2 million beachside house, drove BMWs, were buying multiple investment properties and flew first-class on five-star holidays.
But their "success" was built on debt, empty promises, false hope, and greed. It was already crumbling and last week it finally crashed when Duker's business was placed in liquidation. Banks have taken out caveats on his personal properties and the 37-year-old is allegedly planning to declare himself bankrupt.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars of investors' money has been lost, along with the trust of some in both Duker and their church.
Duker was demoted as pastor when the trouble surfaced three years ago, but his church and its leader, Simon Longfield, still stand by him. His brother, Matthew Duker, a director of his company, remains a pastor. Meanwhile, two of his victims, Craig and Sue Williams, have been ostracised by the church for trying to get their money back.
Until now, the true extent of Duker's problems have been kept from the flock, perhaps because five of his fellow pastors — including the church's deputy leader Victor Samoilenko — invested in Duker's scheme. It is not illegal for pastors to invest, but it broke a decades-old church rule banning members from doing business with other church members — a rule which, according to the Australian Securities and Investments Commission, discouraged many from airing the problems.
Revival Centres International, founded in 1948 by Simon Longfield's father, Lloyd, is a strict fundamentalist church whose followers believe you must speak in tongues to be saved, and that the end of the world will happen "in this general time period".
Like others bruised by their investment experience, Craig and Sue Williams claim that Duker used his position of trust as pastor to encourage them to raise loans or mortgage their houses to invest in his high-risk financial schemes.
In 2003, Duker persuaded the Williamses, Sydney-based members of the church, to invest in a joint venture on a Brisbane house. He was a pastor, a solicitor, and his offer seemed "too good to be true".
"We trusted him," Sue Williams told The Sunday Age.
The issue of trust is key. In the church, the pastors are called "the Oversight" and, the Williamses say, the flock was taught that "pastors care for your very soul, as a shepherd for his sheep — the thought of being misled or deceived was unthinkable".
Pastor Longfield, the church's world leader, scoffs at suggestions that the Williamses' trust in Duker led them into difficulty. He says the Williamses were driven by love of money. "I don't believe Glenn misused his position," he told The Sunday Age. "I have heard no examples of him going around the church saying, 'I'm a pastor, so you should invest in my company'."
But according to lawyer Michael Hayter, who represents seven of Duker's investors including the Williamses, the law regards the relationship between religious leader and parishioner as "of even greater influence than parent and child". This "undue influence" can lead rational people to do otherwise irrational things, he said.
Duker was, says his former assistant, Lorraine Boyer, "smooth, charming, believable". He told investors he would use their money to buy houses, subdivide land, move or build other houses on it, and then sell for a massive profit, which he would split with them 50/50. He would do the hard work, they would just arrange their loan and, in one year, they would receive profits of 25% to 45%. Duker offered a personal guarantee to many.
Between 2002 and 2004, Duker signed 15 property joint ventures and as many other funding arrangements, almost all with pastors, church members or their friends and relatives.
Church member Peter McKay signed up in late 2002 and the next year suggested his sister, Rowena Purchase, enter a joint venture. None of the investors who spoke to The Sunday Ageobtained independent advice.
"No, because (Duker said) we didn't have to," said McKay. "He said … I'm going to do the right thing by you … He was the expert on everything, being a lawyer as well as the property man; we were just the financiers; that was the whole thing. He said 'You'll be out of it in a year'."
Seven years later, the Purchase family is still entangled.
But in mid-2003, that was all in the future. The Williamses, under Duker's sway, accepted his offer to move from Sydney to the Gold Coast to take up a job with the new company he was setting up, RVP Group. Craig left his position as a high school woodwork teacher; Sue gave up her job as a preschool assistant.
But they soon discovered that Duker was hopelessly over-committed. He began borrowing from them. First it was loans of about $50,000 then, throughout 2004, amounts of between $10,000 and $20,000, up to four times a month. He paid the smaller loans back quickly, but reborrowed them just as fast.
Duker asked the Williamses to "help out" by signing their names to property titles because he was "maxed out" with the banks. Though they had only one proper business deal with him — the original joint venture — these ongoing "favours" meant they were exposed at one point to $3.5 million in eight properties belonging to RVP.
"There were no documents or written contracts," Craig Williams said. "He verbally offered 100% guarantees — he was our pastor and we rather naively accepted his word."
But trouble was brewing. Cash flow was tight, developments stalled and builders and other contractors were not paid.
By May 2005, Sue Williams' two sisters, whom she had brought in as investors, were distressed because they couldn't get their money back. She confronted Duker at church but he assured her he would "look after you before I look after myself".
The Williamses, because their names were on several property titles, were also under constant pressure from trade creditors and debt collectors seeking payment. Sue eventually collected 31 default notices.
The other investors were also growing impatient. Sue Williams' sister, Joann Polyblank, said Duker strung them out for months when they tried to retrieve their money, making and breaking promises.
In 2005, the message started to get out to the church and, according to Longfield, "we had a couple of chats with Glenn; it wasn't the Spanish Inquisition". Longfield demoted Duker and sent him from the Gold Coast assembly to Brisbane, telling him to repay his creditors.
"A lot of the money that was paid back was because of us pushing. Glenn was being surrounded because the Williamses were stirring up trouble everywhere," Longfield said.
But eight months later, at the height of their supposed bid to pay back investors, the Dukers sold property in Melbourne for $1.7 million and splurged $1.6 million on four Surfers Paradise units in their own names.
The Williamses, meanwhile, out of a job and out of money, were forced to move with their three children into a tiny, two-bedroom, rat-infested house. Sue plunged into clinical depression.
Duker did manage to pay some investors back, though it is unclear how many recouped their money. The Williamses received some money in 2007, but say they are still owed $75,000 for the joint venture and another $100,000 in unpaid GST.
McKay's sister, Rowena Purchase, and her husband Richard, received $25,000, but are still owed $100,000.
When McKay confronted Duker about the money, Lorilea Duker replied that he should focus on his "spiritual principles" over his material principles, and suggested he stop fighting "tooth and nail for those things that rust and moth doth corrupt".
For the Williamses, the final straw came in May 2006 when Longfield authorised Duker's return to the Gold Coast assembly just nine months after he had left it.
Church leaders had stopped talking to the Williamses and, when they protested to Longfield, he emailed back accusing them of "malice, blame, revenge", saying "we warned you to do the scriptural thing — to move on and let the Lord be the judge".
The Williamses felt they had no choice but to leave their church of 18 years.
Other investors got the bad news a few months ago, when GST bills of up to $70,000, began to arrive. A number of investors face the threat, all these years later, of losing their homes.
Duker has refused to comment for this article, responding instead with legal threats and the assertion that questions fromThe Sunday Age were "based on grossly erroneous facts".
Longfield maintains that, "90% of the people (Duker has) done business with think he's fine" and it is up to "the law of the land to judge him". He concedes that if Duker has been "fraudulent and dishonest, he should go to jail", and that he would then also be excommunicated from the church.
The Williamses are living on Craig's teaching salary, using credit to pay huge legal and accounting bills: "We're in our mid-40s, we don't control our lives," says Sue, in tears. "I don't know if we'll be able to pay this next tax bill. He's done something to hurt people. He's hidden behind the church. We want the truth revealed."
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 05:05:01)
Hey guest thanks for the copy and paste from the web site, my comp wouldnt let me do it. e5
The whole sit is very sad really, i sort of feel for Glen to, i mean read simon L comments " he will be kicked out if found guilty" where is the love of God in that, i mean yea sure he needs to be delt with, but for "the Church" to punish him futher is horrendous, this is up to the laws of the land, the church should be there to council him and his family ( not to say what they should be doing for those burnt by this whole horrible thing) but no push them away let it not tarnish there precious reputation, what a joke and a sad indictment on the christian church as a whole.
to those that have been burnt by this whole thing i am so sorry that you have gone through this and i pray that you have restitution
I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn"t, than live my life as if there isn"t, and find out there is"
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 06:16:12)
Their reputation is already more than tarnished, so they might as well keep him.
At least that way they are all in the one place and we know where they are. Makes the real world a safer place for the rest of us.
I think the whole point is that they RC are void of Love and one thing the bible says is that God is Love.
That reads to me No Love- No God.
If you think the possible treatment SL has said for Glenn is harsh- that's nothing compared to the treatment Glenns victims have received. Hard to hide dirty laundry with witnesses, so you force them into submission or push them off the edge...problem gone.
Until his victims receive some justice, pray for him-yes, but I would waste no time in sympathy for Duker- not when you read the personal Millions worth of property he has still, while others lose everything they have.
He has put these and so many other families not mentioned in this article in to utter hell for years with no compassion, no mercy and no apology, all the while living a Million dollar lifestyle while some of these poor people have had their property repossessed, complete breakdowns and now add insult to injury they are now receiving his tax bills.
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 17:52:18)
It peeves me off that Simon is defending him to such an extent. How much sense does this make; two consenting adults have sex, which pleases both of them, and Simon condemns them to hell. Then one rich guy exploits poorer families by holding a carrot out in front of them, pulls their life apart and then says to hell with you and Simon backs him until the end. With hypocritical "pastors" like this no wonder Glen turn out this way too. "If the roots are corrupt, surely the branches will be too". Let's pray for Glen that he does get put out, maybe he will become a better person without such bad influences in his life.
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 17:53:38)
It peeves me off that Simon is defending him to such an extent. How much sense does this make; two consenting adults have sex, which pleases both of them, and Simon condemns them to hell. Then one rich guy exploits poorer families by holding a carrot out in front of them, pulls their life apart and then says to hell with you and Simon backs him until the end. With hypocritical "pastors" like this no wonder Glen turn out this way too. "If the roots are corrupt, surely the branches will be too". Let's pray for Glen that he does get put out, maybe he will become a better person without such bad influences in his life.
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 19:03:01)
Quote - "If the roots are corrupt, surely the branches will be too"
Well the branches from the corrupt root have spread far and wide. Look at all the branches that originated from RCI bad root GRC, CAI, RF. The RF think they have redeemed themselves with their Council of Pastors, most of whom have come out of the bad root of Longfield's RCI.
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:11/06/2008 18:54:38)
This story is sad and yet not really unexpected of people, whether pastors or not, who put other things eg money/power before God.
Because they do not KNOW God and are therefore lacking in so many areas of their lives, they look to gain their power through wealth or by whatever means to compensate.
I am very sorry for all the people that have been hurt by this man and ultimately by the RCI for not taking a stand.
I have seen similar things happen in RF because of greed - in fact my family personally experienced a similar thing, and yet when brought to the attention of the oversight, we were told the usual, 'pray about it' and 'you can't take your brother to court'. This man has since been raised up to a position of house leader even though the oversight are aware of the money he owes us (and others)
The only consolation is that he will one day have to answer to the Lord for his actions (as we all will) - meanwhile we've lost our money and it was not an inconsiderable amount. We have chosen not to pursue it further and to forgive him the debt as God forgave our debts although it was a struggle at times to truly forgive.
The scriptures tell us that what we have lost will be restored to us and we will receive a 'double portion'. To all those who have been hurt by this man, hold on to these promises of God. When we know the character of God, we know that He keeps His promises to us and that He is a God of restoration.
Urch
(Message edited by Sea Urchin On 11/06/2008 18:56:35)
I remember when they first come along, young enthusiastic lads. Glenn had gotten himself in trouble before that anyway, and was temporarily put out of the church and then come back. Matt Duker has always been an absolutely lovable person, unlike his brother. But I am surprised Matt has gotten off so lightly, where did that money come from for that new Lexus SUV come from? Being a director surely he knew of what was going on? But, Matt has always been - or come across as - just a lovable person, so i am glad that he has not gone down too hard.
There are many other business dealing in the RCI going on too. Especially in Melbourne. Hopefully this is a big wakeup call. I will quizz my ex-wife today about how much of this is going around internally. I would be intested to know how much of a coverup and what spin has been put on it internally.
-------------------------------------------------------------- “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
Rank:Poster Venti I
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:12/06/2008 08:02:06)
What do you mean had gotten into trouble and temporarily been put out?
Was this to do with bringing business in the church?
If it were it would seem there is a long known history of Glenn's dubious business propositions.
Why is it that you cant have a tupperware party (actually that is something to be thankful for- One of their better rules)
but he has been able to canvas his business up and down the East Coast without anyone stopping him. Although from the article it seems that a lot of his business was actually done with those that should have stopped him-The Pastors.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:38:34)
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:12/06/2008 16:38:57)
Glenn was previously put on holiday for a while, not sure of the reason.
From my discussions yesterday with Ex nobody knew anything until the report came out in the Herald Sun. Either way apparently SL had brought up the subject at Convention and Glenn and Co were nowhere in sight.
The attitude seems to be inside that those people who got burnt by it should have known better and they should just cop it on the chin.
Also it seems that Craig Fox was given a hand out so that he could keep his house.
Rank:Poster Venti I
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:12/06/2008 18:22:37)
That's interesting that they help the Pastors (F) who had actual contractual business deals but turn their back on the family that naively tried to help G (lent him money and signed loans) because they were the whistle blowers and wouldn't be silent because they were left exposed with no contract only his promises. One family had their house repossessed by the bank because he(GD) defaulted on the loans and they could no longer cary the debt. Bet S didn't mention that one! There is a difference between business going bad and coping it on the chin and some one being deceptive and defrauding and using his position of trust to his advantage. These are the things that need to be revealed and as most things eventually they are seen for what they truly are.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:27:55)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:15/06/2008 23:05:28)
RVP Group Ltd / GLENN DUKER has liquidated his company. A creditors meeting will be held this Friday 20.06.08. If you or some one you know has had ANY business with Glenn Duker,even if it were a few years ago, you may have either A) a capital gains tax or B) GST tax Debt in your name or C) Owed money as a creditor eg: unpaid Account.
DO NOT ASSUME YOU DONT HAVE A DEBT. CHECK with AUSTRALIAN TAX DEPT' ring JOHN LYNN directly on 07 32135159. Not all debts have been processed and sent out, so you may be totally unaware like everyone else who are now receiving final notices from the ATO. Once he liquidates it is too late ACT NOW. You may have even already paid a Tax debt that was not truly yours to pay.
If you require assistance leave your details at: creditorsagainstglennduker@hotmail.com
(Message edited by outaegypt On 16/06/2008 04:07:23)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:16/06/2008 01:22:20)
ASIC
National Names Index
Australian Securities & Investments Commission
Index of corporate and business names
Extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 17:13:09 on 16/06/2008
Name
RVP GROUP LTD
ACN
095 763 554
ABN
60 095 763 554
Type
Australian Public Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date
31/01/2001
Next Review Date
31/01/2009
Status
** UNDER EXTERNAL ADMINISTRATION and/or CONTROLLER APPOINTED **
Locality of Registered Office
Surfers Paradise QLD 4217
Jurisdiction
Australian Securities & Investments Commission
Former Name(s)
RVP GROUP PTY LTD
REAL VISION PARTNERS PTY LTD
IRANA PTY LTD
These are the documents that ASIC has most recently received from or in relation to this organisation. Page numbers are shown if processing is complete and the document is available for purchase.
Date
Number
Pages
Description
<!-- begin document lodged row -->
13/06/2008
7E1655260
5
529A Notice of Creditors' Meeting to Consider Voluntary Winding
Up
05/06/2008
7E1644666
3
205M Notification of Resolution Winding Up The Company
05/06/2008
7E1644657
3
5011A Copy of Minutes of Meeting of Members, Creditors,
Contributories or Committee of Inspection Other Than Under
Rank:Poster Venti I
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Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:22/06/2008 01:17:52)
Since the publication of The Age article, over 5 Million dollars worth of creditors came forward and were represented at fridays creditors meeting- about 25 people signed proxies against GD. GD had 3. Although interestingly PSL recently vehemently claimed "90% of the people GD's done business with think he's fine." What an ignorant lie fed to the people! Most of these debts are not simply business deals gone bad as some would like you to simply believe - especially when 3 Pastors have been directors of the company and another 4 have done numerous business ventures with him - no wonder PSL tried to make it go away by blaming GD's victims that spoke out, so much easier to be rid of insignificant members, -makes it difficult to deal quietly with 7 Pastors when others are making noise and drawing attention to the facts.
(Hard to hide things under the carpet when there are people standing on the carpet pointing at the dirt!!)
Until the articles publication several of the Pastors concerned didn't know the truth to what or why they had received these tax debts and had been instructed (PSL)to pay unquestioned as 'punishment' for doing business in the church, in essence aiding and allowing them to be defrauded and deceived by GD. This is about 'alleged' fraud, lies and deception concerning illegally claimed tax credits 'allegedly' without peoples knowledge and other questionable activities that will soon be revealed for all to see. On friday whilst bankruptcy on GD's behalf was being declared, it was revealed that there are another 5 companies owned by RVP with assets - houses/properties and continuing developments and an additional 5 properties in their personal names and Trusts- outcome- liquidator embarrassed for not investigating their said claim of bankruptcy and was removed. Proving their only bankruptcy is of telling the truth.The Solicitor representing the 25 creditors appointed a liquidator and now has control of the liquidation.
"He who walks in integrity, walks securely. But he who perverts his ways will be found out." Proverbs 10:9
So the Revival Centres International is now under reproach... But what else has been going on all these years since 1958 that has somehow been "swept under the carpet" that has been totally unknown to the lay ???? ....
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:28/06/2008 00:22:39)
"Maybe worth getting in touch with the network to see if they wanna do a follow up on another dangerous Australian cult?"
With that Comment in mind...Sunday's Melbourne Age will be printing another article tomorrow concerning Glenn Duker and the liquidation of his company.
Many people who were owed money were alerted to Glenn's plan of liquidation and false claims of bankruptcy after seeing the Age Article. 25 people, owed between $5-6 Million dollars signed proxy against GD. GD had Himself and 2 relatives. Yet PSL has continually told the RCI people and was quoted in the Age claiming that "90% of the people that have done business with Glenn think he's fine!!!"
What an ignorant lie!!
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Not quite new
Score:750 Posts:33
Registered:05/11/2005
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:28/06/2008 02:35:14)
At the Sunday meeting at convention, Simon briefly mentioned the Age article. He glibly glossed over it and many of his minions had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. He stated in words to the effect that at least the paper had spelt his name correctly and had accurately published the main belief of the assembly. i.e speaking in tongues to be saved. He also said the he would be standing by and supporting Matt and that the law of the land would judge Glenn. Many of the members that did manage to read the article were really shocked at the serious nature of it and were appalled at Simon's flippant mismanagement of the whole affair. For some it was an absolute revealation about the hypocrisy of the R.C.I and they opted to leave. Some of the more naive members think it is totally exaggerated and are saying you can't believe everything you read in the papers Many others are just marking time waiting to see the outcome. Surely Matt must have been aware of what was going on? Exactly how many RCI members have lost money through being involved in Glenn's scheme?
Rank:Poster Venti I
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Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:28/06/2008 09:00:18)
Im told about 10-13 in RCI are affected, then it extends to associated family members, public and contractors.
Some RCI people have stayed very quiet and not come forward about their involvement especially the Pastors.
There is a lot more to this situation, it is not about unwise investments and people whining as SL would simply like everyone to believe.
A lot of the people involved are ordinary reasonable Mum and Dads or are approaching retirement and most would accept there is some risk in property investing but people don't accept fraud, lies and deceptive behavior. Some have said the sincere spiel was convincing and comforting, the reassurances from a Pastor gave them a confidence they might not have had other wise.
GD has allegedly procured tax credits not legally entitled to, allegedly claiming non existent partnerships, people had no idea until they started receiving letters of final demand from the ATO, meanwhile he's quickly liquidating his company.
Until the Article some of the Pastors involved didn't even realize what these debts were that they were expected to pay.
Some allegedly have capital Gains tax($100K+) on properties that they received no return of funds on but have attracted capital gains as it is shown to have been in profit. Others were not business deals at all but naively allowed GD to put houses in their names thinking they were helping him, with no monetary interest or gain of their own and now they are left with his GST and capital gains tax. He begged those people for their help and this is how he repaid them.
Although peoples situations and experiences are varied the common thread amongst the victims are the alleged continual lies, broken promises of payment and pure deception even up until the liquidation.
These are just a small example of alleged charges.
So much has been revealed and substantial evidence is stacking up against him.
PSL was warned years ago over another situation, if he didn't stop GD canvassing in the church it would have dire ramifications implicating the church and that is exactly what has happened.
Instead of protecting and aiding him, if the proper channels were taken out side the church instead of threatening and silencing people for speaking the truth, some of these families wouldn't be facing losing their homes or their retirement funds or savings to free themselves of these ill gained debts.
It makes you wonder what else they have hushed up over the years.
It's so much more convenient to blame the people that walk away- it's not like anyones going to talk to them to find out the other side of the story. It makes me wonder what injustices I have personally thought of others by not asking the simple question of -Why?
Instead of following the law SL and VS allegedly wanted to control it and hush it up but it doesn't just involved the little world of RCI there are bigger parties involved that have no concern towards RCI and have no intention of walking away until it's finished.
MD is a Director as is GD and his wife LD, all have allegedly participated and are equally responsible and each should be held accountable to the full extent of the law, there is another pastor that was a director at the time he is said alsoto be implicated.
I thought SL showed his true colors a bit more openly than usual that Sunday, and a lot of people I spoke with were totally disgusted and as said above further confirmed the hypocrisies within RCI.
We just thought it was strange he told people to read the paper- you just cant buy that sort of advertising!!!!
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:45:27)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
THE role of the fundamentalist church Revival Centres International in a failed property development company could come under scrutiny in the NSW Supreme Court, as creditors owed almost $6 million queue up to find out what went wrong.
Glenn and Matthew Duker, the two former directors of RVP Group, a failed Gold Coast property development company, were pastors of the Melbourne-based church. Five pastors in total, including the church's deputy leader, Vic Samoilenko, were investors, as were many of their flock.
Victims have told The Sunday Age they invested in the high-risk venture, without seeking independent advice, because they trusted the Dukers. Common law recognises that the relationship between religious leader and parishioner is of greater influence even than that between parent and child.
But RVP Group's former auditor, retired Melbourne accountant Allan Walker, suggested investors had been "stupid".
"Who is being stupid here? … You're spending more than half a million dollars on a house … I mean, how in God's name can you sign a document … where you're handing over control? … Would you not seek both legal and accounting advice on it?" Mr Walker said.
The church and its leader, Pastor Simon Longfield, continue to stand by the Dukers, instead ostracising the complainants, Craig and Sue Williams, and forcing them out of the church.
On the day three weeks ago that The Sunday Age revealed the allegations against RVP Group, Mr Longfield told an assembly of the faithful in Melbourne that they would support Matthew Duker, to which the other pastors replied "Amen". Mr Longfield then invited Mr Duker to lead the communion.
But liquidator Bruce Gleeson told The Sunday Age: "I want to look at whether or not there was any misusage of the church group they belonged to."
He is checking documents and will interview the current company director, Glenn Duker's wife, Lorilea. As well as the church, he will also consider Supreme Court examinations for Mr Walker and Mr Duker's legal advisers.
The Duker family has declined to comment, but Mr Walker, who has been a friend of the family for decades as well as RVP Group auditor, said they had authorised him to speak. He said that everyone was "fighting over a skeleton, because there are no assets there".
It was likely that Glenn and Lorilea Duker would go into bankruptcy as a result of the collapse. They, and other family members, had poured their father Jim's inheritance into the company and lost it, he said.
"The main person who has been burned is probably (Glenn Duker)," Mr Walker said. "To the tune of $10-$20 million … He's had probably 500 breakdowns in the past two weeks … he's been presented as a bad person, and I don't think he is a bad person. I think Glenn in some ways has been probably over-Christian, and not been a big enough bastard."
Mr Walker blamed aggrieved investor and former RVP Group employee Craig Williams for the mess.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/06/2008 03:11:52)
Mr Allan Walker in the Age Article said "He's had probably 500 breakdowns in the past two weeks"
I calculate that including in his sleep GD has a nervous breakdowns about every 40 minutes.
Now considering AW is an Accountant and he's suppose to be good with Numbers, as thats what Accountants do, now he either exaggerates excessively or has no idea.
Maybe he should speak to one of GD's victims that truly has had a Nervous Breakdown.
Maybe thats how AW managed to signed off on the Auditing of RVP, claiming it was financially sound and declared RVP wasn't in financial difficulty and could continue trading and paying its debts only a matter of weeks before planning the Liquidation and there is a big question over AW's involvement financially in the above said company and the conflict of interest as it's 'Independent' Auditor who has also been a family friend for decades.
Oh but hang on a past employee CW that left 3 years ago caused all this mess....
Funny but I can hear Kylie Mole saying "Dolly did it!!!"
And as far as 'G not being a big enough Bastard'
GD has left a recently widowed woman in her 60's, near pensioner holding a huge GST tax debt 'allegedly' GD illegally claimed credits , under the guise of a non existent partnership to which she had no knowledge of the claim or where the funds were deposited to, until she received a final demand from the ATO and while GD is assuring her "I've got a top tax lawyer dealing with it", In fact the GST debt was not being disputed at all, as it was not in RVP's interest, meanwhile GD was knowingly falsely assuring her he was dealing with it, GD was in the process of liquidating his company, and blatantly leaving her and all the others holding his debts to the ATO.
Got the Bastard T shirt and wrote the Bastard book- yep he's got that one pretty well covered, thanks!
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:37:47)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600 Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:29/06/2008 23:49:33)
All,
Sadly in all of this the RCI and its senior leadership once again demonstrates that much vaunted of Christian virtues--grace! God abandoned them long ago. Perhaps now so too will the people.
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600 Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
Reply To misterkilometres
(Date Posted:12/07/2008 01:58:10)
I have just heard ( second hand ) that SL did put his own money in GD business. Just as we all suspected.
Well if this second-hand information is actually true (something that is yet to be established), such would invariably make Simon one heck of a hypocrite, wouldn't it?
I bet they can't wait to shake his hand and say - there, there brother Glenn!
The prodigal's son has returned home! That's what Simon's talk is going to be on - hold on wait - news hot off the press - no it's the wandering wan- I mean wandering apostle! He has come to do the prodigals son talk for Simon! Added bonus feature, all the ranting, raving and yelling at no extra cost that any RCI people will know about!
There will even be a collection just for Glenn, so he won't have to make a withdrawal when the bag goes around.
And because I have been put out - I get to miss all of this. Darn.
Such yummy spiritual food - yum yum yum.
( a little satire won't hurt will it)?
-------------------------------------------------------------- “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
Rank:Poster Venti I
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Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:05/08/2008 06:08:19)
A relative of a Rci member started a 'promised' 12month to completion venture on a property EIGHT years ago.
Every promise made to pay the debt's related and release them have been broken over and over and over.
Because the property was in their name, they have received a notice they are being Sued for over $100K by some bloke that GD alledgedly took a deposit on the sale of this property, apparently the finance that GD badly organized had a short fall and the purchaser couldn't cover it-hence sale fell over.
Question: Guess who didn't return the deposit to the purchaser, so where is the money now? and the bank has repossessed the property so the family have lost that too.
This poor family has been tormented and held at his ransom for eight years with no way out. Add insult to injury they have also been left the ATO debts that were 'allegedly' illegally claimed.
Even for the likes of S who knows these stories but choses not to believe them, how can he even stoop to the depths to support such wicked scum.
These people have been devastated as have other families but RCI dont care and presume some righteous position in publicly declaring their support of the persons who have committed these acts. They should be so ashamed of the part they have played in this ordeal.
I wonder if they will be shouting their support when all the evidence is being revealed in the Supreme Court?
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:32:33)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:05/08/2008 06:53:31)
Hey wow the wandering wanker err umm apostle!! Yeah how nice of him to be there. Yelling ranting humiliating - all that from dear old vic rhymes with rick with a silent p. Lovely stuff!!! How cute such a nice little gathering. Hope the nice little gathering gets to the supreme court and gets exposed BIG TIME REAL SOON.!!!! could be the start. Oh goodie....
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:05/08/2008 22:23:22)
Hi Ian,
Probably part of my 'disappointment' in them not just as Pastors (they certainly show no evidence for justifying the wearing of that label!) but even just as basic human beings was expecting them to see right from wrong.
And my biggest 'lesson' learnt is that you can never predict someone else's behavior or depend on some ones actions.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Guest
Reply To earth5
(Date Posted:05/08/2008 22:40:12)
Reply to earth5
go to todays "the age" preacher who preyed on his flock article
Glenn Duker wore a toupee when he first came to RCI and got outed after one of the lighting guys shone a pin-spot on his head revealing the tell-tale petroleum rainbow!
Rank:Poster Venti I
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:05/08/2008 23:34:13)
Is that for real???? a toupee- that would be sad but it's just too funny.
He had to ask his wife 16 times to marry him- yep that's love at First sight, I mean Second er Third umm Fourth, maybe Fifth what about Sixth, or Seventh-I'll throw in a BMW....Eight -what about multiple properties at other people expense..... Ninth -I'll take you on a first class trip to America while I can't afford to pay out investors eight months past their due date ...and finally the Sixteenth, and I can hear him singing " She dont care about my car, and she dont care about my money, She loves me- for me or not because Im such a hotty'
Yeah 'Blink' and wake-up!
(Message edited by outaegypt On 05/08/2008 23:47:20)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Guest
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:06/08/2008 00:50:48)
Oh it's for real alright. He turned up to the Forum sans-rug, bee-lined his accuser and said "To answer your question of a few weeks ago... yes I was wearing a hair piece, I have removed it because I decided it was just vanity" I nearly pissed my pants with laughter.
Ironically - the person who outed him, was later kicked out after putting Simon Longfield under the pump over church finances.
Rank:Poster Venti I
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RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:10/08/2008 02:09:08)
Your so right Brolga, there are many scriptures appropriate in James, I re-read them this morning after reading your post but like the many scripture presented to Simon on this situation and even other situations -it will fall on deaf ears- my sheep know my voice, which possibly explains his position.
A favorite scripture is 'Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Gal 4:6
Since the take over of the RVP's liquidation, there have been other people coming forward realizing the recent promises GD has been making of payment have been just ploys holding them off till he liquidated and went into hiding.
Members of the GC Assembly had no idea that they had even gone, some were informed and told by the Pastor S.MC (also a Former Director of RVP) to keep it quiet. Why all the secrecy?
Why are RCI continuing to embroil themselves further in this mans failed and very questionable business.
The reasons for his hiding? apart from some threats to his personal safety, he apparently took an AVO out on one person who he owes about $1 Mil, (in retrospect ripping Melbourne Mob type guys off probably wasn't one of his smartest ideas-apparently a boxer!). But seems he has never been concerned with where money came from just as long as he got it to pay off the last bloke chasing him. so they are playing hide an seek.
If he was as innocent as he and SL claims you would think he would want to face his accusers- all of them but instead continues to be difficult and evasive.
An honest man has no need to hide from the Law.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:35:35)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:20/08/2008 05:52:50)
Evil men prosper when good men do nothing to stop them.
So many have sat back in silence.
By not voicing your disapproval,
Your silence is your given approval.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:07/10/2008 17:54:55)
Interestingly as the Supreme Court case approaches (early Nov), so far the only person who might not be there is the very one responsible and in question.
GD is keeping his whereabouts hush hush to avoid being served. V, S and others have been subpoenaed and will be facing interrogation on the stand, while G hides trying to delay the inevitable, what sort of man would let others face court concerning his business and allegations of illegal activity and he not even have the decency to answer for himself the accusations.
A bailiff even turned up at Box Hill on a Sunday, but Gd was either not there as claimed by members or tipped off, hid or fled.
But then in retrospect he sent his wife in alone to the Liquidation meeting of RVP to face the Creditors and the ATO Representatives, the Media and deal with the humiliation of being caught out in front of them all, on a false claim of bankruptcy. Again he was no where to be found. It seems he will hide and use anyone to shield himself to avoid taking responsibility for his actions.
You would think S would instruct him to finish this mess and take responsibility, face your accusers, an innocent man doesnot need to fear the law and hide from it.
Somebody needs to 'out him' so this show can get on the road and we can get on with our lives instead of prolonging it with avoidance games.
If GD believes his Innocence as he claims- be Christ like. Did Christ avoid Gethsemane, he was innocent and faced his accusers. Christ was raised victorious.
Or maybe the part of Judas is more apt holding the money bag while betraying your Brethren with a kiss.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:40:25)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
The preacher who preyed for gainhttp://www.theage.com.au/national/church-may-face-scrutiny-over-failed-investment-20080628-2yk4.html?page=-1
Other investors got the bad news a few months ago, when GST bills of up to $70,000,
This GST Debt refers to Tax Credits claimed by a Partnership between RVP and a private person. The people who received these debts claim they had no idea a ABN number or a Partnership existed till they received GST Bills claiming incorrect claims had been made until after -RVP had been Liquidated. The ATO had been attempting to recover the money from RVP for a over a year, of course when the ATO could not recover the funds from RVP they sent demands of final notice to the people who claim they had no knowledge of the ABN's or claims and certainly had not received any of the ill gotten gains.
Waiting on a Government department is learning patience in it's self, but now as these things are being revealed -patience truly is a virtue.
The first batch of investigations being made by the ATO have resulted in the Private entities being released from the Debts and not being held responsible to pay back the Funds taken.
So far 3 debts investigated resulting in all 3 found not guilty.
The ATO will now proceed to recover the Debt from the Person who made the Claims in the first place.
One of those debts removed is a widower that I have mentioned in an earlier post, it is such a relief and blessing to see the truth rising to the top and innocent people released from a nightmare and able to recover their lives.
I'm disgusted that the Church didn't stand for the truth but have publicly backed the offenders and persecuted the ones that spoke out.
But from all I have watched and what has been revealed am I surprised?- no not really.
People have been persecuted and maligned for years any one who dared to stand against their agenda.
Although this has been the most horrendous experience, the best thing to come out of this has been watching a family released from the bondage of RCI and they are regaining their lives and relationships, finding Freedom and a 'real' Joy in their relationship with God.
Moving on after Bondage.....
Sometimes listening to that small voice, the niggles that tell us something is wrong, people would have you believe that is Satan leading you astray, temptation, the natural man, but we are gifted with discernment- although frequently not exercised.
If you truly block out all your told, the head chatter, stand bare before the Lord as a spiritual being that loves your God not a lover of RF or RCI or whatever, come with an openness for God, claim that God be true and everyman a liar, listen to what voice you hear- My sheep Know my Voice.
Fast and Seek truth don't just sit- ignorance is not an excuse, nor complacency.
Hardest, scariest is the first step, the decision to leave and saying it out loud.
Is God faithful to those that love the Lord? Always
For those that are perplexed and confused by this situation -just pray for truth.
Truth will set you free.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:43:08)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:04/11/2008 06:58:43)
Cut and paste as relevant to this thread:
Tiny Little scared Fish in a very Big pond would be an apt description of seeing RCI Pastors in Court today.
Today is an extremely sad day for those in RCI that held a glimmer of hope that there would be honor found among them.
After hearing some of the what seemed unnecessary diversions of truth given under oath, it did leave me wondering why- for what gain when evidence to refute false testimony will be so easily exposed in the next round.
For others it is relief as it confirms the decision to move away from RC was made with the desire to follow Christ, be Christlike in being so a lover of the Truth.
Scripture to ponder:
2 Thessalonians 2:5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only Hewho now restrains will do so until Heis taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish,because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore, putting away lying, “Leteach oneof youspeak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.26“Be angry, and do not sin” do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
<!--StartFragment-->
John 8:44 He does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his ownresources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Proverbs 18:5It is not good to show partiality to the wicked,Or to overthrow the righteous in judgment.
Proverbs 21:6Getting treasures by a lying tongue Is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death.7The violence of the wicked will destroy them Because they refuse to do justice.8 The way of a guilty man is perverse; But as for the pure, his work is right.
12 The righteous God wisely considers the house of the wicked, Overthrowing the wicked for their wickedness.
13 Whoever shuts his ears to the cry of the poor Will also cry himself and not be heard. 14 A gift in secret pacifies anger, And a bribe behind the back, strong wrath. 15It is a joy for the just to do justice, But destruction will come to the workers of iniquity. 16 A man who wanders from the way of understanding Will rest in the assembly of the dead. 17 He who loves pleasurewill be a poor man; He who loves wine and oil will not be rich. 18 The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, And the unfaithful for the upright. 21 He who follows righteousness and mercy Finds life, righteousness, and honor. 22A wise man scales the city of the mighty, And brings down the trusted stronghold. 24 A proud and haughty man—“Scoffer” is his name; He acts with arrogant pride. 26 He covets greedily all day long, But the righteous gives and does not spare.27 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination; How much more when he brings it with wicked intent! 28 A false witness shall perish, But the man who hears him will speak endlessly. 29 A wicked man hardens his face, But as for the upright, he establisheshis way. 30There is no wisdom or understanding Or counsel against the LORD. 31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle,
But deliverance is of the LORD.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:04/11/2008 07:50:33)
Reply to Disciple
Can you fill us in a little more imfo. Also my other question is: are you able to monitor what is going on.. Disciple
Being a Public Examination the Court transcript will be available to the public before the end of the year, for all to peruse.
And of course if your in Sydney the proceedings are open to the public to attend tomorrow in the Supreme Court.
This is the first examination, these people are likely to all be called back again pending legal action .
Quick summation of today:
P.SL- said he didnt bother to read information supplied to him as it was his job to preach the Word of God even though he had been informed and given evidence that One of His appointed RCI Pastors was defrauding members and the public.
P.VS- although previously VS assured a Sydney Pastor that he never had Joint Venture arrangements with RVP/Duker, evidence confirmed such arrangements existed. Financials exposed.
P.MD- director of RVP claimed 'Privileges' to each answer to protect his testimony from being used as evidence in Court.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
Reply To Fled
(Date Posted:04/11/2008 20:07:12)
Reply to Fled
At the Sunday meeting at convention, Simon briefly mentioned the Age article. He glibly glossed over it and many of his minions had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. He stated in words to the effect that at least the paper had spelt his name correctly and had accurately published the main belief of the assembly. i.e speaking in tongues to be saved. He also said the he would be standing by and supporting Matt and that the law of the land would judge Glenn. Many of the members that did manage to read the article were really shocked at the serious nature of it and were appalled at Simon's flippant mismanagement of the whole affair.
PROVERBS21:22A wise man scales the city of the mighty, And brings down the trusted stronghold. 24 A proud and haughty man—“Scoffer” is his name; He acts with arrogant pride.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
RE:Rci pastor has been uncovered
(Date Posted:05/11/2008 05:01:36)
Summary of Day 2:
LD -Evaded answering, very difficult and blatantly refused to answer questions She was threatened with being held in Contempt of Court.
GD -Evasive and not forthcoming at all. Failed to supply Subpoenaed information concerning RVP that was suppose to be handed over at Liquidation. Two weeks to hand Over or will be arrested for Contempt.
Proceedings were Adjourned till 5 Dec 08.
Some one that was in attendance commented that over the last 2 days of listening to the examinations of PSL, PVS, PMD, GD and LD they could not believe that these people call themselves Christian and that they were ashamed and embarrassed to be associated with RCI.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
Reply To outaegypt
(Date Posted:05/11/2008 17:30:36)
P.SL- said he didnt bother to read information supplied to him as it was his job to preach the Word of God even though he had been informed and given evidence that One of His appointed RCI Pastors was defrauding members and the public.
I was just thinking about the testimony PSL gave in Court on Tuesday and it just dawned on me what a vile cop out using the Command to preach the Word as an excuse.
Is it not also the Shepherds job to keep the flock safe from wolves.
As The Head Shepherd if you were told that one of your shepherds that you personally assigned to care for your flock was stealing from your flock and outside the flock and was using the godly guise of the position you gave him to give credibility to steal from others sheep outside your flock- wouldn't you be alarmed to say the least?.
If you were handed incriminating evidence, that confirmed these accusations wouldn't it be of the utmost importance to read them and assure that there was not a wolf maiming sheep - Wouldn't that also be a most important aspect of being a Shepherd.
PSL said he didn't bother to open it, he had over 100 emails he didn't have time, his jobs to preach the word of God.
He also received the evidence by mail- ignored again.
The Good Shepherd searched through the night PSL couldnt open an email or an envelope.
Maybe it's not the care for the sheep -just the glory position of Head Shepherd is where the care lies, or protecting the financial history of his predecessor.
When PSL was told that this situation was huge and had the potential to blow up in the church and harm innocent people would leave, caught in the cross fire of rumours and choosing sides, PSL's care and concern was "So, People come, people go "
Q. Are you just a sheep to come or go, at no concern to your Head Shepherd just an expendable sheep?
The shepherd in the bible fought lions, bears and searched through the night for just one lost little sheep, as apposed to "Sheep come, Sheep go"
This should be a time to really question and answer any doubt you may have people!
The handing down of the Mantle was always questioned and if your honest- still is by many.
These examinations are clearly showing the 'report' of men.
If your not seeing some one even attempting to be a Christlike Shepherd maybe your following the wrong flock.
(Message edited by outaegypt On 08/12/2008 07:47:36)
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
