Posted on 20/11/2009 00:14:09
Eric,
Ian said you were located in/near Brisabane. A quick google search found the following synagogues in your vicinity. When I was a kid I was told that I would be welcome visiting sevices ar the local progressive synagogue if I simply wore any hat.
http://www.mavensearch.com/synagogues/C3354Y41489RX
Posted on 18/11/2009 20:08:47
Hi Riddler
I actually have a bachelor's degree in a field of applied biology, so guess what I've had to come to grips with from a scientific perspective! And might I suggest that unless you've asked the other correspondents here you have no idea how much time *they've* spent looking into evolution.
I'll be interested to see your interaction with Ian re your key concern, theodicy
PS I *know* Ian can handle baiting. Did you miss my point?
Posted on 18/11/2009 18:38:09
Yo Riddler,
Given that you've not responded to the comments of Fremde or myself and continue to address Ian, I must say that the evidence that you're wanting to "bail up" Ian rather than discuss issues is becoming quite compelling if not yet overwhelming. If that *is* the case might I suggest you try contacting Ian directly rather than use the bandwidth here ... and copy in your friends if you want an audience.
Posted on 16/11/2009 17:04:59
Ian,
Gullible? That's me ... and somewhat naive, but I'm getting wiser. I figured my brief reply might at least benefit observers.
Posted on 16/11/2009 13:44:52
Hi R2
I'll jump in if I may, despite your apparent baiting.
1) Ian's already provided a theodicy here somewhere. CS Lewis' "The problem of evil" seems like another reasonable jumping off point.
2) Regarding your current state, you left out the possibility that you "were built with" the ability to overcome "laziness" and "spinelessness", as indicated by your awareness of those characteristics.
3) "The average Joe" comes to a point of humility and personal responsibility. I believe world-wide there's upwards of a billion of them who've done so.
4) From a biblical perspective conversion is *always* a result of God's initiation and empowering, and man's response.
5) If you're serious, you should attend "flesh meets" of Xians and Xian teachers.
Posted on 12/11/2009 18:01:41
Hi G
I can certainly appreciate you becoming disilluioned with the nonsense of RF teaching, but might I suggest to you that Christianity isn't the nonsense they preach.
If you're open to the *possibility* that you *might* be wrong you would likely find value looking at the websites of Ravi Zacharias and the American Scientific Affiliation. The former is an eloquent Christian philosopher. The latter is a group of highly qualified scientists who maintain that biblical Christianity *is* true ... and don't hold to 6 day, young earth creationism and many do promote macro-evolution.
By the way, are you aware that many supposedly "rational" believers in naturalism actually base their beliefs on self-contradictory ideas such as "logical positivism" and "scientism".
Posted on 12/11/2009 17:23:01
Yo Luke
Ian sure has found his own little cultish home on this site hasn't he!
That's pretty much the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?
A week or two back I tried to register as an advanced member of your forum, 'cos I became aware of a post about Ian, and I was interested to see what it said. Your security required registering as an advanced member to view the thread. Rather than play hide'n'seek I tried to register as me, and your webmaster formally rejected me yesterday.
You can see what's written about you here, and you even have an opportunity to post, yet you refuse to let the public even see what you allow to be posted about Ian.
This is the first time I've said *anything* about this, and if you weren't such a hypocrite I would probably *still* haven't said anything about it.
... we are seeing people saved (Baptised in water and being filled with the Holy Ghost - With the evidence of Speaking in tongues, of course)
Well if you're preaching that 'ol RF salvation message, you're preaching what the bible calls "another gospel" and while you might be doing OK spiritually, you're in *deep* doo-doo
Spiritually ... as well as being a hypocrite.
Posted on 06/11/2009 01:26:47
Galien
Well, I'd say that your assessment of Ian *is* skewed ...
[post editing]
... I'd also suggest you suspend disbelief long enough to at least discuss the last paragraph of my last post with your therapist.
Posted on 05/11/2009 23:58:45
Galien
How DARE anyone presume to tell another how to love their god, or tell them how they love him is WRONG.How dare *you* presume to tell *me* that I should not love YHWH by pointing out to someone who claims to be a Christian when he/she is not doing what is written in what I believe to be YHWH's inscripturated word, and is therfore not doing what JHWH says?
If your love for YHWH is contingent on telling others what they are doing wrong, then I feel sad for you.You miss my point. You are hypocritical with the way you apply the first statement: you can tell others how to love God (ie certain things shouldn't be done), but disallow others the same right. In fact, the way you use the statement is self-contradictory and therefore a nonsense.
Now, since this isn't the "orthodox Christian" forum I have no problem with you expressing you pov, provided normal etiquette applies. As far as I'm concerned feel free to say what you like, as long as you're prepared to meet challenge without flaming.
IMO Ian is *blunt*, rather than rude, although sometimes a little "naughty". His approach really is *very* similar to that of Jesus as recorded in the bible. The pharisees were *livid* with what he said to them. They were *very* particular about loving YHWH to the best of their ability but in critical aspects they were *wrong*. Similaly you would be wise to consider the truth of what Ian says, even though he isn't JC, despite your reaction to his manner.
Why don't Xians challenge Ian's manner? Some years ago I suggested Ian use more "honey" and less "vinegar" to "catch his flies". (I'm not the lone ranger there.) He quite reasonably pointed out that such a call was his to make. But frankly I think you're being hypocritcally inconsistent in your call. *You* responded to his intellectual challenges with disparaging remarks about the size of his you-know-what! *You* continue to attack his motives.
Finally, you mentioned self-esteem issues some time ago . I have chronic lack of self-esteem. I see in your comments about Ian being "controlling" and "not being allowed to be yourself" the same sort of gut-level reactions I can have when being given advice by people with "strong personalities". The problem is not with them. It's with me, and I'm learning to deal with it. I'd suggest you ponder the possibility of such skewing of your own perspective!
Posted on 05/11/2009 20:50:53
Galien
How DARE anyone presume to tell another how to love their god, or tell them how they love him is WRONG.How dare *you* presume to tell *me* that I should not love YHWH by pointing out to someone who claims to be a Christian when he/she is not doing what is written in what I believe to be YHWH's inscripturated word, and is therfore not doing what JHWH says?
Posted on 14/10/2009 22:52:43
Hi R2
I know you've been given plenty of advice, but I'd like to suggest something else that I found really helped me "grok" the flow of Paul's message in 1 Co. It's simple. Read the letter aloud to yourself. It's the way Paul's readers would have done it. Start from the beginning of the letter and work though to the end. From memory it took me 1-2 hours, but I might be thinking of another book. (Either way it was time well spent.) Then do it again, and again, and ... see whether the "meeting context" argument still seems "natural".
As someone else said, I'd suggest reading non-KJV versions. The NLT flows like spoken language and the ESV has the cadence ("feel"/"rhythm") of the KJV but uses the English of today.
Posted on 14/10/2009 17:01:18
Hi Ian,
I got responses that I pretty much expected, but I had some time on my hands yesterday and maybe we both learned something. The next few days though ...
PS I gotta thank you for the expression "God's inscripturated Word" I learned from you a while back.
Posted on 14/10/2009 00:21:24
Galien,
OK So you weren't telling Brolga how to be a Xian.
You spoke of "the middle class value system that poses as christianity" (#185), then said you would have to "take my word" for what "the middle class value system" is (#188), and now you know what it is (#190).
Your original comment was that "belief systems cannot be other than completely subjective". I questioned that. "A subjective opinion regarding the things of God" is something you just introduced. You introduced apologetics in #188; I simply pointed out that it was not part of the original post that I was commenting on.
Personally, God's holiness is one of the main reasons that I endeavour to heed his inscripturated word.
Posted on 13/10/2009 22:11:12
Galien
The hypocrisy is that you said you don't tell people what they need to do yet you have no qualms giving such advice.
"Your religon" = "the religon you follow"
Of course you have personal revelations. You say that what's been revealed to you about Christianity differs from what has been revealed to orthodox Christians.
You were the one who used the line "the middle class value system that poses as christianity". Now you make no claim to know what "the middle class value system" is?
You wrote *completely* subjective; nothing about apologetics.
Posted on 13/10/2009 21:12:12
Galien
So you don't dispute that it was "hypocritical" that in 179 you said you don't tell people what they need to do, then in 181 you proceeded to tell someone what he ought to do?
My world view doesn't preclude me from giving advice, so I'll point out that your 3rd and 4th paras indicate that your religion varies from the Christianity in the bible, given eg its record of Jesus' attitude to scripture.
Personally, it's because I love God - and the people he created - that I check my "personal revelations" against the record of what he has revealed in the past - the bible.
Frankly, it's your belief that "belief systems cannot be other than completely subjective" that is the current, troublesome, Australian middle class value system.
Posted on 13/10/2009 17:17:49
Hi Galien
In 179 you write
When, in all the time I have been on this forum have I told you what you need to do? Difference between my kjind of christianity and yours is that you accept that you have all the answers and you have the right to impose them on others. I don't fell that need because I'm busy looking after my own backyard.Then in 181 you write
Try being a friend mate. Isn't that hypocritical?
Posted on 12/10/2009 18:24:00
Ian, Brolga asked a question regarding context: "which is ?" and I simply replied with:
"I would suggest to you Brolga that these verses indeed apply to exploring every aspect of our human existence and experience that we live in our whole of life journey as a Child of God."
Meta,
I normally stay out of these things but ...
IMO it stood out like the proverbial dog's hind leg that this point was *exactly* what Brolga was alluding to when he orignally quoted the verses from Ro 12. And of course that's precisely what he said in the 1st para of his reply to you in 160#.
But if Brolga is going to get "up tight" rather than discuss as I was intending then I'll just ignore him in future.
Mate ... in the spirit of iron sharpening iron ... this (IMO) makes you look like a prat. Out of the abundance of the heart ...? I hope not.
PS I'll delete this if you delete yours
Posted on 11/10/2009 14:03:25
Galien
The point is that the sentence I quoted at the start has priorities back to front from a Christian pov. To rephrase a principle that has been brought out before, Christian worship is on *God's* terms.
Which means what, exactly? Have another look at the 2nd para in post 136# (and various copies of the post). I don't think I can be much clearer than that. Maybe chat it over with your Christian friends if it's still unclear.
Yes I got that. But do you really think God cares if one twirls ribbons, plays trumpets, beats on drums or stands still as a statue when they worship? Is there ANYTHING God doesn't go over with a fine tooth comb to assess its "rightness" or is it just othodox christians who do that? Cool. I'm sure then that you can get what "I think" from my comments about what you referred to as "cultural issues".
Posted on 11/10/2009 00:03:32
Galien,
The point is that the sentence I quoted at the start has priorities back to front from a Christian pov. To rephrase a principle that has been brought out before, Christian worship is on *God's* terms.
Which means what, exactly? Have another look at the 2nd para in post 136# (and various copies of the post). I don't think I can be much clearer than that. Maybe chat it over with your Christian friends if it's still unclear.
Posted on 09/10/2009 00:59:29
Galien,
Are people not free to worship God whoever they choose?If we take the bible as God's word, he's the potter; we're the clay. He knows what's best for us. It says how to worship him (eg intellect, emotions and deed are "in"), and says what displeases him (eg child sacrifice, temple prostitution and pride are "out"). It says there are unpleasant consequences for those who choose to disobey him. ("Not fair" perhaps, but he *is* the potter, and we *are* but clay.)
So ... *if* we take the bible as God's word, we need to think in terms of worshipping God the way *he* chooses, rather than the way *we* choose. (Eg, why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things I say ...)
Yeah you have to watch that temple prostituiton, tends to be a deal breaker in God's sight. What I mean is, is there any reason why we still have to worship God the same way we did in 1964? Surely a lot of things in church are cultural and not biblical at all, and it often depends on a person's age. Most older people I know cannot stand contemporary christian music, find it much too loud, prefer older hymns and feel they are the only songs that should be sung in church. That doesn't automatically make them right though. Its a preference.
I know some churches that of course have youth services, which I think is a good thing to cater for everyone
Cultural issues? Obviously. Eg, the "music wars" have been going on for centuries. Youth services, children's services, open air services, liturgical services, "waiting on the Spirit" services, "foreign language" services - sure there's a variety of ways of Christians "formally" fellowshipping.
The point is that the sentence I quoted at the start has priorities back to front from a Christian pov. To rephrase a principle that has been brought out before, Christian worship is on *God's* terms.
