Posted on 19/11/2009 21:11:01
Fremde, I was amused at your apt "push God around" metaphor. It was common in the sub Revival groups I had fellowshipped with, to extend that further (especially for healing) to teaching that there was a formula laid down and God must obey it, because he cannot lie and is always true to His Word. Yes, I wondered where they got that idea. God obey man? Yeah right. I guess my final eye-opener was when my last fellowship got into the Toronto so-called blessing. I couldn't be part of it. It smacked of demon possession to me. The pastor's mother (she also was the widow of a deceased Revival Centre pastor) approached me and said that she observed that I was uncomfortable (in the meeting where they first tested the fad and people were uncontrollably laughing etc.) she then warned me to be careful I was not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In retrospect I should have rebuked her, but alas I didn't. Within a few weeks I departed, the whole "let's get entertained" theme of the fellowship had started to fracture everything. Hmm. I thought it was a lot more about performance art, attention seeking and fitting in with the crowd. I understand people loving god. I don't understand, or want to be part of loving god by biting the dust (had a laminectomy on my neck in 1996 and I am NOT throwing myself onto the ground), clucking like a chicken, laughing until I burst a blood vessel or doing multiple somersaults around the auditorium. I was always under the impression that we have control over the spirit. I hope you are not confusing wealth handled wisely, with mammon. Wealth only becomes mammon when it is used corruptly and/or becomes a "god". I have met some pretty mean and selfish poor people as well as rich, as I would venture you had too. However the "prosperity" doctrine stinks and makes those that may be struggling for what ever reason, feel guilty. I never heard much "sharing" preached along side prosperity doctrine. The rich are exhorted by the Bible, not to be highminded, not to trust in uncertain riches, to be rich in good works etc. (1 Timothy 6:17 & 18). No, I meant the kind where money is god. I cannot cope with the hill$ong mini mes where the dollar, one's status and one's outer appearance is everything. The prosperity message is pure genious for those it benefits and just sad for those not so well off who believe it and continue to send their widow's mite, not out of a generous heart but because it is presented as some kind of holy investment plan guaranteed to give a return. I'm not saying everyone does that, but some do. Yuk and double yuk. No scriptural basis whatsoever.
Posted on 19/11/2009 17:22:49
RDP
Very interesting, this reminds me of something HG said in the chatbox a while back about being concerned that she didn't feel like she automatically had enough love for others and was wondering whether this made her unchristian. So again, faith is like love then - an attribute to be nurtured - which scriptures could you point us to Ian, that support this notion, specifically?
I have always had the problem that I love people too much. I actually think it is a temperament thing, and certainly not anything to feel bad about if one is not automatically drawn to people. I have two daughtersd. One is an extrovert who adores people. The other one is quiet and takes a while to warm up to people. Some things come more naturally to some people than others. Over time though, god can and does change everyone who has a heart open to his word.
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
-and this is a fantastic scripture, I think, for us ex-revvers to explore -suffering? we were told we could just pray and then we would be happy though? We were the happy-clappers! Weren't we? ;)
Um, not quite all. Me being the one who refused to toe the party line could only operate on what I had seen happen. Everyone suffers to a greater or lesser extent, christian or non christian. In my experience that scripture is completely right, when one endures hardship and their heart is god's it does produce character.
Also Galien, good point about the pastor's sister-in-law dying resulting in confusion, guilt and shame.
Was difficult for a lot of people at the time. The lady who died was also a pastor's wife. The bible says that rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. I have never thought being a christian gave anyone some sort of magical protection, and I was never sure why revival thought that. Some pentes are even worse. Sometimes people get a healing, sometimes they don't. I think people sometimes think god isn't allowed to say no.
the "name-it-and-claim-it" atheology subscribed to by such people inevitably leads to a crushing sense of doubt and self-condemnation.
And why wouldn't it. Who tries to push god around by saying to god "you will do this because my words have power to MAKE (!) you act". Then they get upset when they don't succeed in pushing god around. This is one of the weirdest things I have heard belief wise, and at times it causes a fair amount of loud converstaion between myself and my dearest christian friend. But she is a Hinn enthusiast and won't be swayed. Me being my cheeky self said I would make more money getting a job for 10 years and saving it than I would from trying to convince god he owed me.
Interesting, hadn't heard of Christian triumphalism before but I can't help but think if so many weren't told this lie about God -that we are called to lead a charmed life of prosperity as opposed to suffering, trials and hardships (reality) then they wouldn't have stopped believing in God, because reality doesn't lie.
No, it doesn't, and the very fact jesus had nowhere to lay his head speaks volumes to me. One can love god or mammon, not both.
Posted on 19/11/2009 02:03:44
Does anyone know why some of yesterdays posts are missing? I suspect the clever moddy deleted all the rubbish ones. And a good job too 
Posted on 15/11/2009 21:14:29
Meta,
Me thinks you have a screw loose !!!
Well if i do, shrinks can't pick it. So either they are REALLY stupid or I am REALLY clever.
Perhaps Meta I am just a tenacious believer in love, with a major attitude problem and a wicked sense of humour (which sadly John cannot seem to understand). I suspect, as much as I hate to say it, that Ian is probably the only one who does understand it.
Posted on 15/11/2009 20:08:02
John,
Jingoistic misandry. The refuge of inadequate losers.
Begs the question then why you dive so quickly into misogyny if that is what you think.
Which women would they be you speak of that connect with others? Non-sexist caring Proverbs 31 women like my wife? Or sexist, selfish, self opinionated, foul mouthed, egostistic, self-pitying women like you?
Well seeing from the selection above probably only opinionated fits the bill in my case, I guess it would be women like your wife and like me.
What a sad, sad person you are.
Thanks.
You don't know who you believe, nor will you allow persuasion, because you have no commitment unto that day. So there? So where? Where are you? You "cherry-picked" from 2 Timothy 1:12, you could do well to read all of 2 Timothy (and 1 Timothy for that matter) and you'd learn a lot about church leadership, ministry and fellowship
I don't know who I believe? Really? Amazes me how you think you know what goes on in my head. You are a clever bunny arent you?
John, personally mate I think you need to go get some counselling. You and I both know why are so angry. Instead of picking fights with me that aren't helping you, go talk to someone.
Posted on 15/11/2009 19:06:18
Eric, Communuituies are built by submitting to authority? Since when? And here was me thinking it was about genuine concern for and connection with others. Oh, wait, sorry - that's the way women would do it. Silly me.
Posted on 15/11/2009 19:04:45
Galien,
I see. So we all get to invent our own little slice of reality, in which to "...live, move and have our being." Nice
As opposed to what, reality according to Ian Thomason that applies to everyone in the world?
Well seeing I learned what being a christian was from the bible itself and Caringbah Baptist Church perhaps you should take the issue up with god and said church. The "wrong" things? My point exactly.
'Yes'. Given that in spite of you "learning" what "being" a Christian "was" from the Bible and Caringbah Baptist, you then went on to get sucked into Revivalism, and later, Pentecostalism! I guess you "learned" well, huh?
Im sure all the ex revivals here who are now pentes will be delighted to know they are not "real" christians. I'd rather be a pente that subscribe to your view of christianity which still seems to me to be about half the story.
In closing, you really should try responding to what I actually say, rather than your interpretations of the same. Just a thought.
Well if it actually made any sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Prawn.
Posted on 15/11/2009 19:00:26
John, Ever watched one of those 1960s and 1970s French movies. You know the ones where everyone said "very deep and moving" but had no clue what it was all about? Galien is living a "Last Year in Marienbad" existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Year_at_Marienbad
I always understand those movies. Its about being deep and arty farty. But I wouldn't expect you to understand.
Posted on 15/11/2009 17:33:42
Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?
Me subscribe to the idea of a crowd of any kind? Unlikely.
Interesting. I could've sworn that you said, "... unless you can bring it to me in the bottom of a bucket where I can poke at it ..." etcetera, which is a materialist view of reality.
I always find your need to categorise people and views and put them in a box that makes you comfortable interesting. Is it that you need to know where people fit into "the scheme of things" so you know where they fit in your internal pecking order?
I am more interested in differences in perception. I am fascinated by the way we are socialised into believing certain things have certain meanings. I often find upon questioning others about why they think what they think, they often have no idea why they think it, or who taught them to think that way in in the first place. I get a lot of "everyone knows that", and "that is just the way it is". Well surely everything had to start somewhere. Where did it start, who started it, what keeps it that way?
I see. So because you don't like reality as it is, you feel the need to "perceive" it differently to everyone else? Such an admission goes a long way to explaining why you've sought to re-create Christianity in your own image. Don't like the biblical product ...
Dude everyone has their own reality, I think deep down you know that. How can you even pretend to know how other people percerive things when you are not in their head. You really are chained to that one size fits all thing arent you?
Athiests are entited to their opinion like everyone else.
If an opinion is presented as a statement of fact, i.e. as a "truth-claim", then it must be true in order to have merit or intrinsic worth. Atheists, Christians and Galiens don't have the right to be holding to, and promoting, opinions which are patently false. The English words used to describe such a situation are either "deception" or "delusion", depending on whether the person is simply ignorant, or willfully ignorant.
Well you present your opinion as statement of fact. Just because a whole heap of biblical scholars threw their opinions on a book that they cannot prove is divinely inspired and chucked them into a university degree, does't make it any less an opinion Ian.
I live my life in abstract concepts, but I accept they are perceptions, philosophies and concepts.
I doubt it. You live your life just as "concretely" as does everyone else. If you didn't, if you lived your life in "abstract concepts" as you falsely claim, then you wouldn't rant and rave and disparage everyone who has the temerity to tell you that you're wrong  Furthermore, you wouldn't live your life being bound to the "concrete" realities which surround you: the need to work, the need to pay your bills, etc.
Of course I do the necessary. Everyone who knows me though knows I spend a lot of time thinking about stuff that few others seem to think about or care about. Apparently I think too much. I think most people don't think enough, but its a free country.
And I find the whole ranting and raving charge amusing because dear you do exactly the same thing, but you do it with far greater sarcasm and easy dismissal of the opinions of others than I ever will.
Gone (forever I hope) are the days when I stood there with THE christian truth wrapped up in a pretty little bow making others feel like dirt if they didn't believe it the way I did.
But you never had the Christian truth. You were a Revivalist and then a Pente; consequently, your beliefs were as wide of the "truth" mark as are "Lukie's". It almost presents as being the case that believing in the "wrong" things fairly defines your entire life. And that's sad, the truth be told.
Well seeing I learned what being a christian was from the bible itself and Caringbah Baptist Church perhaps you should take the issue up with god and said church. The "wrong" things? My point exactly.
For most of my christian experience I thought the way you think a christian "should". Life experience has taught me not everything is as it seems. I can no longer live my life based on the experiences and perceptions of people who see life through a hole the size of a 20c piece. Referring there to the writers and time period in which the bible was written.
Given what you've shared of your past, if there is one lesson that your life's experiences should've taught you, it would be this: you are not a particularly "good" judge of what is "truth". In point of fact, your "truth barometer" needs serious calibrating! Next, your comment regarding the context of the biblical writers simply reinforces my decidedly low opinion of your capacity to understand, analyse, and contextualise the biblical witness to proper effect.
What I've shared of my past hey. How I practically brought up my three siblings due to an alcholic father and a mentally ill mother, with god's help. How I have overcome much abuse, gained an education, always had a job, adopted my sisters child and brought her up, allowed god to change me over and over again, cared about every human being I have come in contact with, how I have always maintained my honesty no matter how much trouble it got me in, been an advocate for mentally ill and physically disabled people because the christians around them found it all too hard etc etc. Yep, I'm a total cow I am.
You may freely understand, analyse and contexctualise all you like, but you STILL dont get that god is love Ian.
One of the most important parts of who I am is complete honesty which I believe to be the cornerstone of a real connection with god.
Except for the many times when you lie, of course 
So you say. You are simply - wrong. You know, that thing you think everyone is but you.
That means I have to tell the truth about how I see things, even though it wins me SO many friends, and attracts SO much goodwill and support.
A closing thought for you to ponder: has the possibility ever crossed your mind that your perception simply ain't reality?
See above. You know Ian there are other realities besides yours and the one you try so hard to sell. Deal with it. You think a 12 year old crack whore on the streets of Chicago has the same reality as you? You really need to get out more.
Ian, I don't quote know how to break it to you but the general population of the world could care less what you think, and really don't accept that you are an expert on everything.
Posted on 15/11/2009 13:37:09
Ian,
Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?
Me subscribe to the idea of a crowd of any kind? Unlikely.
I am more interested in differences in perception. I am fascinated by the way we are socialised into believing certain things have certain meanings. I often find upon questioning others about why they think what they think, they often have no idea why they think it, or who taught them to think that way in in the first place. I get a lot of "everyone knows that", and "that is just the way it is". Well surely everything had to start somewhere. Where did it start, who started it, what keeps it that way?
I was told by a work colleague that "everyone" knows if you give a person a piece of elephant jewellery, and the elephant has its trunk down, you are wishing the owner bad luck. How can I have gone through all these years of living and not known that? Apparently the fact I don't believe in bad luck, or the fact that because "everyone knows" it MUST be true has no bearing on me having to accept such superstition.
Athiests are entited to their opinion like everyone else. Their "religion" for want of a better word, is reason. Clearly, having believed in a god whose existence I cannot prove for most of my life, I am not entirely shackled to the material. I live my life in abstract concepts, but I accept they are perceptions, philosophies and concepts. Gone (forever I hope) are the days when I stood there with THE christian truth wrapped up in a pretty little bow making others feel like dirt if they didn't believe it the way I did. Watching the rabid right wing christians during the american election made me want to cry. I have rarely seen so much barely disguised hatred from those who are meant to worship a god says in his word, his apparently undisputed truth, that he is love.
For most of my christian experience I thought the way you think a christian "should". Life experience has taught me not everything is as it seems. I can no longer live my life based on the experiences and perceptions of people who see life through a hole the size of a 20c piece. Referring there to the writers and time period in which the bible was written. One of the most important parts of who I am is complete honesty which I believe to be the cornerstone of a real connection with god. That means I have to tell the truth about how I see things, even though it wins me SO many friends, and attracts SO much goodwill and support.
Posted on 15/11/2009 03:31:32
You know as well as I do Ian that there is no point of agreement on what truth is. Bring it to me in the bottom of a bucket where I can poke at it, let me watch it rise in the morning, then it is the truth. Everything else is an opinion, whether it is labelled truth or not.
Posted on 15/11/2009 03:18:49
Meta, The master has given me a sock! Does that mean I am no longer your house elf? We both know I'm on my way out the door. You think this circular crap doesn't drive me nuts too? I would just like to know what Ian thinks. He started the convo after all. But it does bring the whole thing down to brass tacks really. I'm sure in my absence there will be someone else to denigrate. Ian has already mentioned he likes proving me wrong to prove his own points, which is of course the only reason I am still here. Just a shame that some have lost their sense of humour. I tell you what Meta, hows about introducing a topic that keeps me awake. Now there's a challenge for ya.
Posted on 15/11/2009 00:55:51
Here's a little lesson in semantics and propositional logic for you: "truth", by it's very definition mandates an absolute concept; one can't have a "truth" which isn't true just as one can't have a square circle.
Hmmm interesting. So, if for me the truth is that you treat people here who don't agree with you badly for your own amusement, and I base that "truth" on observation, is it a truth? Or is your "truth", that you don't do that, the actual truth? If I show 20 people the things your write and 10 think like I do, but 10 think like you do, what is the truth of the situation?
Posted on 14/11/2009 23:42:11
Well, as usual, yours is certainly an interesting "take" on matters. Given what you've shared, would it be fair of me to state that your position is that truth is relative, rather than absolute?
Some truths are absolute. I fully expect the sun to rise tomorrow. With regard to questions of belief, I no longer believe that kind of truth is objective, no.
I find it interesting that you've stated, as you have done previously as well, that I'm "...only interested in being right..." If truth is relative, then the categories of "right" and "wrong" lose all their semantic force and inherent meaning.
That is the probolem with you Ian, you assume that all these concepts mean the same to you as they do to everyone else. Not everyone believes in absolute truth, but you address life as though they do, because you think they SHOULD. Leaves no room for any other experience of life than yours.
But if truth is absolute, then I'm "right" in what I assert,
Not necessarily, I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, other than the fect you believe you have the keys to absolute truth, which of course is only a belief on your part, and can never actually be proven, because despite the fact you think you can prove the existence of god with semantics, you actually cannot, and neither can anyone else.
and it necessarily follows that you're "wrong" in what you assert!
Not necessarily either
Concerning the former your opinion becomes a nonsense; if the latter, then your opinion is, well, still a nonsense! But you'd go on believing that you're entitled to it, wouldn't you?
I worked out quite some time ago Ian that apparently the only opinion anyone is entitled to is yours.
Posted on 14/11/2009 23:01:35
I liked these. Looked at a couple of others of Hitchins and Dawkins, who from my point of view are just more silly men who think they know everything, but back it up with science. One thing I have learned about their ilk of person is that it doesn't matter what they use to get attention and recognition, they will find something.
Perhaps it's the case that proponents on both sides of the Atheist/Christian debate place a higher premium on issues of establishing the "truth" than do you? Perhaps it's the case that you lack the intellectual or philosophical or spiritual capacity necessary to discern "what's what?" with respect to the issue? I doubt "Gloss" does.
That is Gloss' prerogative. Im kind of glad I am a woman. I meet far fewer of those with the arrogance to believe they can establish truth. Usually we are much too busy doing the real work of life, like looking after the needs of others and building relationships, and THAT is our truth, not proving who has the biggest whatever.
Debates between them and christian diehards amount to a gigglefest in my opinion. I think there are valid points on both sides. Having said that though I think that humans will use whatever they can including religion to justify some very evil things. They will continue to do it as long as they are allowed to get away with it.
I bet you giggle when someone says, "penis" too 
Nope, only when you tell me you can prove the existence of god.
For me being a christian has always been more about personal growth, learning humility and love, and what I can put back into the world than it has about mincing words over obscure scriptures or running around telling others how wrong they are.
I couldn't have provided a better, more concise summary that explains why I doubt that you're a Christian if I tried! "Personal growth"? "Learning humility and love"? "What you can put back into the world"? Delete "Christian", insert "vegetarian", or "AMWAY supporter", or "Greenie". Each of these descriptors fits the criteria and the context of your position far more appropriately than does the epithet, "Christian".
Guess it also explains why you have no real concept of love in action. You are just interested in being right and are still animalistic in the way you act in groups.
What matters is that you find yourself and find some peace after revival , and it sounds like you are well on the way there. Go you!
Again, I'd be very surprised if "Gloss" agrees with your assessment, the truth be told, given that he left what he believes was Christianity for intellectual/philosophical reasons. And speaking as a Christian, to someone who claims to being a Christian, I was surprised that you were so quick to dismiss the central issue of "truth" from the entire equation: "what matters most is that you find some peace after revival". A Christian would surely put things differently,
A christian who has learnt how to repeat "right thinking" rote for the approval of their peers, not one whose brain is actually active.
more along the lines of: "what matters most is that you find peace with God after leaving Revival." The issue that prompted "Gloss's" departure, the issue that prompts Christian mission efforts the world over, is one of establishing what is the truth. Ultimate truth. In the Gospel According to John (14:6) we find Jesus making the following unashamed truth-claims: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Yes, and as I have said before I don't believe it is possible to prove there is a god. I BELIEVE that Jesus is the way the truth and the life but I cannot prove it. You BELIEVE it is an objective truth. Like I have always said Ian, its a head driven ego trip for you. Its a heart driven way of life for me.
This is what sits at the heart of Christianity; not your "self-improvement" or "self-actualisation" nonsense
What sits at the heart of my love for god and others, is my love for god and others. I feel sad for you that your heart is not connected to your christianity.
Posted on 14/11/2009 17:39:50
Glossolali,
10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer & Why Christianity FailsI liked these. Looked at a couple of others of Hitchins and Dawkins, who from my point of view are just more silly men who think they know everything, but back it up with science. One thing I have learned about their ilk of person is that it doesn't matter what they use to get attention and recognition, they will find something. Debates between them and christian diehards amount to a gigglefest in my opinion. I think there are valid points on both sides. Having said that though I think that humans will use whatever they can including religion to justify some very evil things. They will continue to do it as long as they are allowed to get away with it. For me being a christian has always been more about personal growth, learning humility and love, and what I can put back into the world than it has about mincing words over obscure scriptures or running around telling others how wrong they are. If you cannot find a personal faith after leaving revival, that is fair enough. I don't particularly an either/or split between faith and reason. I'm 48, I have been in the world long enough to know life is nowhere near that cut and dried, or that black and white. What matters is that you find yourself and find some peace after revival , and it sounds like you are well on the way there. Go you!
Posted on 13/11/2009 21:27:00
I harbour neither bitterness, nor malice. I just tell the truth of my story, to the glory of god. Met a christian friend today I havent seen in a while. She asked me along to an orthodox church tomorrow night, and I am going. We have both purposed in our hearts not to let ANYONE rob us of our faith ever again.
Posted on 12/11/2009 21:36:12
John did not ask you to send me a "private" message. However you chose such a method to slyly and snidely denigrate me and Ian, so I thought it meet to post the offending diatribe. Don't like me doing that? Then don't send messages! Previous public mention of my depression has met with charges of self pity, so I chose to mention it privately. Private mention apparently renders me sly. Can't win either way can I?
Posted on 12/11/2009 21:30:18
Talmid,
Love Ravi Zacharias. Have his books Can Man Live Without God and Deliver Us From Evil. Excellent.
Chips,
Re your comment on the cbox
My intent is not to offend but point out some of the uncomfortable things that go on in the world. I don't entirely understand why those things make people uncomfortable. They happen, and they are wrong. Im sure you know the quote about good men doing nothing. I am a very sensitive person, things affect me deeply and I really dislike it when bad stuff goes on and people pretend it doesn't. Neither do I understand why grown adults who have clearly been around the block more than once are offended by "bad" language. And if you are offended by aggression, why are you not offended by everyone here who is aggressive? Christians are allowed to get angry you know.
Posted on 12/11/2009 19:28:39
John,
I have no problem with being open, that much is clear. I asked you privately to stop being cruel to me. Is there any reason that you
a. cannot stop doing that; and
b. felt the need to bring my private message into open forum?
So, no answer for me?
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