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cultevasio
Re :   Rci pastor has been uncovered

 Matthew Ch 5
25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee (Dukers, A. Walker, S. Longfield & V. Samoilenko) to the judge (Supreme Court), and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

   26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.



20/11/2009 04:28:05


Fremde
Re :   Messianic Jewry

Metanoin,

They will supply a yarmulke for you at the Synagogue. On the other subject, I have never heard of a "bris" being performed before entry is permitted.

John


20/11/2009 03:11:48


Talmid
Re :   Reply to Metanoian

Eric,

Ian said you were located in/near Brisabane. A quick google search found the following synagogues in your vicinity. When I was a kid I was told that I would be welcome visiting sevices ar the local progressive synagogue  if I simply wore any hat.

http://www.mavensearch.com/synagogues/C3354Y41489RX


20/11/2009 00:14:09


Metanoian
Re :   Reply To Galien

Reply to Galien

Does anyone know why some of yesterdays posts are missing? I suspect the clever moddy deleted all the rubbish ones. And a good job too


Galien 

blessings

M


20/11/2009 00:09:42


Metanoian
Re :   Reply To Fremde

Reply to Fremde

Thanks for your reply Eric,

Your profile shows you as being in Alabama. The only thing I know about Alabama is that it's easy to take the ivory from Alabama Elephants because their "Tuskareloosa". In my youth I used to work for International Harvester in Melbourne and one of my bosses was from Alabama, hence I learned that corny Groucho Marx line.

I don't think you'd come all the way over here just to go to Synagogue with either of my closest Jewish friends Michael or Itzy, who I know would be pleased to bring you as their guest, but if USA Synagogues are anything like the ones here, you'd be welcomed I am sure.

A bit like Christian churches there is every flavour from Orthodox where men and women are separated, a lot of the ceremony/service is in Hebrew (there is usually a service guide in English), but the sermon is usually in English, and if the Rabbi knows a Gentile is present he will probably go the trouble of explaining what is going on and why and/or allocate someone to assist and befriend you, to the very Liberal Synagogues that tend to have a large part of the service in English, and Oy Evay! there may even be a Female Rabbi!

I have two copies (originals not pirated) of the DVD "Messiah Prophesy Fulfilled"

"A dramatic Gospel presentation of the birth of Christianity, showing how one rabbi becomes a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth. being filled with the Holy Spirit, Rabbi Yehudah zealously embarks on a journey to share the Good News with his people. He arrives to his hometown, precisely one year after the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of the Messiah. Now his greatest challenge is to convince his loved ones that the long awaited Messiah Son of David has finally come."

If you would like one (to keep) send me a private message with you address details and I will Airmail it to you.

Roses are red, violets are blueish, if Jesus hadn't come, we might all be Jewish!

Lech l'shalom (may you journey to peace)

John


Ta John,

I have sent a pm to you. (do let me know costs).

Well I do have one thing that is in common and is mandatory for all jewish men.

but anyway I won't be out of place when I get to Eretz Israel.. I suppose I would have to wear a kippa when I enter a synagogue..  I am interested though

anyway thanks John I have to be off now

blessings

Eric


20/11/2009 00:00:00


Galien
Re :   Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life?

Fremde,

I was amused at your apt "push God around" metaphor. It was common in the sub Revival groups I had fellowshipped with, to extend that further (especially for healing) to teaching that there was a formula laid down and God must obey it, because he cannot lie and is always true to His Word.

Yes, I wondered where they got that idea. God obey man? Yeah right.

 I guess my final eye-opener was when my last fellowship got into the Toronto so-called blessing. I couldn't be part of it. It smacked of demon possession to me. The pastor's mother (she also was the widow of a deceased Revival Centre pastor) approached me and said that she observed that I was uncomfortable (in the meeting where they first tested the fad and people were uncontrollably laughing etc.) she then warned me to be careful I was not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In retrospect I should have rebuked her, but alas I didn't. Within a few weeks I departed, the whole "let's get entertained" theme of the fellowship had started to fracture everything.

Hmm. I thought it was a lot more about performance art,  attention seeking and fitting in with the crowd. I understand people loving god. I don't understand, or want to be part of loving god by biting the dust (had a laminectomy on my neck in 1996 and I am NOT throwing myself onto the ground), clucking like a chicken, laughing until I burst a blood vessel or doing multiple somersaults around the auditorium. I was always under the impression that we have control over the spirit.

I hope you are not confusing wealth handled wisely, with mammon. Wealth only becomes mammon when it is used corruptly and/or becomes a "god". I have met some pretty mean and selfish poor people as well as rich, as I would venture you had too. However the "prosperity" doctrine stinks and makes those that may be struggling for what ever reason, feel guilty. I never heard much "sharing" preached along side prosperity doctrine. The rich are exhorted by the Bible, not to be highminded, not to trust in uncertain riches, to be rich in good works etc. (1 Timothy 6:17 & 18).

No, I meant the kind where money is god. I cannot cope with the hill$ong mini mes where the dollar, one's status and one's outer appearance is everything. The prosperity message is pure genious for those it benefits and just sad for those not so well off who believe it and continue to send their widow's mite, not out of a generous heart but because it is presented as some kind of holy investment plan guaranteed to give a return. I'm not saying everyone does that, but some do. Yuk and double yuk. No scriptural basis whatsoever.


19/11/2009 21:11:01


Fremde
Re :   Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life?

Galien,

I was amused at your apt "push God around" metaphor. It was common in the sub Revival groups I had fellowshipped with, to extend that further (especially for healing) to teaching that there was a formula laid down and God must obey it, because he cannot lie and is always true to His Word. Emotional blackmail. And of course if someone didn't get healed it was that they had an unworthy walk, with 1 Corinthians 11:29 and 30, as the proof text. On that basis there was a lot of unworthy people including the grand pooh bah pastor who often got migraines!

I guess my final eye-opener was when my last fellowship got into the Toronto so-called blessing. I couldn't be part of it. It smacked of demon possession to me. The pastor's mother (she also was the widow of a deceased Revival Centre pastor) approached me and said that she observed that I was uncomfortable (in the meeting where they first tested the fad and people were uncontrollably laughing etc.) she then warned me to be careful I was not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In retrospect I should have rebuked her, but alas I didn't. Within a few weeks I departed, the whole "let's get entertained" theme of the fellowship had started to fracture everything.

I hope you are not confusing wealth handled wisely, with mammon. Wealth only becomes mammon when it is used corruptly and/or becomes a "god". I have met some pretty mean and selfish poor people as well as rich, as I would venture you had too. However the "prosperity" doctrine stinks and makes those that may be struggling for what ever reason, feel guilty. I never heard much "sharing" preached along side prosperity doctrine. The rich are exhorted by the Bible, not to be highminded, not to trust in uncertain riches, to be rich in good works etc. (1 Timothy 6:17 & 18).

John




19/11/2009 20:25:05


Galien
Re :   Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life?

RDP

Very interesting, this reminds me of something HG said in the chatbox a while back about being concerned that she didn't feel like she automatically had enough love for others and was wondering whether this made her unchristian. So again, faith is like love then - an  attribute to be  nurtured - which scriptures could you point us to Ian, that support this notion, specifically?

I have always had the problem that I love people too much. I actually think it is a temperament thing, and certainly not anything to feel bad about if one is not automatically drawn to people.  I have two daughtersd. One is an extrovert who adores people. The other one is quiet and takes a while to warm up to people. Some things come more naturally to some people than others. Over time though, god can and does change everyone who has a heart open to his word. 

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we  have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,  2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we  rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.  3Not only so, but we  also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;  4perseverance, character; and character, hope.  5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

-and this is a fantastic scripture, I think, for us ex-revvers to explore -suffering? we were told we could just pray and then we would be happy though? We were the happy-clappers! Weren't we? ;)

Um, not quite all. Me being the one who refused to toe the party line could only operate on what I had seen happen. Everyone suffers to a greater or lesser extent, christian or non christian. In my experience that scripture is completely right, when one endures hardship and their heart is god's it does produce character.

Also Galien, good point about the pastor's sister-in-law dying resulting in confusion, guilt and shame.

Was difficult for a lot of people at the time. The lady who died was also a pastor's wife. The bible says that rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. I have never thought being a christian gave anyone some sort of magical protection, and I was never sure why revival thought that. Some pentes are even worse. Sometimes people get a healing, sometimes they don't. I think people sometimes think god isn't allowed to say no. 

 the "name-it-and-claim-it" atheology subscribed to by such people inevitably leads to a  crushing  sense of doubt and self-condemnation.

And why wouldn't it. Who tries to push god around by saying to god "you will do this because my words have power to MAKE (!) you act". Then they get upset when they don't succeed in pushing god around. This is one of the weirdest things I have heard belief wise, and at times it causes a fair amount of loud converstaion between myself and my dearest christian friend. But she is a Hinn enthusiast and won't be swayed. Me being my cheeky self said I would make more money getting a job for 10 years and saving it than I would from trying to convince god he owed me.

Interesting, hadn't heard of Christian triumphalism before but I can't help but think if so many weren't told this lie about God -that we are called to lead a charmed life of prosperity as opposed to suffering, trials and hardships (reality) then they wouldn't have stopped believing in God, because reality doesn't lie.

No, it doesn't, and the very fact jesus had nowhere to lay his head speaks volumes to me. One can love god or mammon, not both.
 


19/11/2009 17:22:49


Didaktikon
Re :   Reply To Guest

Good morning, RDP.

Scripture has quite a bit to say on the subject of faith (and faithfulness), so I'm somewhat loathe to be providing a list of "proof-texts". I'm all too conscious of the fact that there are a range of Hebrew and Greek words that intersects with the theme, but which aren't necessarily translated into English as "faith". Consequently, I'd rather point you back to the earlier discussions that we had on the subject of "salvation in Luke", where "faith", and it's development, featured prominently. The contexts of those passages that we corporately exegeted, should help to inform the current discussion. However, given that you've asked about nurturing faith, I'll suggest that you reflect afresh on Romans 10:14-17:

"How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

The key point in our passage is the gradual unfolding and developing of faith that directly results from hearing the word of Christ preached faithfully. Faith develops from being receptive to preaching that extols Christ's teaching. Contrast this with what passed as "preaching" in Revivalism. In Revivalism, enduring faith was not nurtured because the "diet" was altogether unsuitable to the task, being wholly deficient in Christ's word. In your previous RF context, people were incorrectly, and arrogantly "preached at"; they were told that if they weren't healed, for example, that it was because they
lacked faith! How ironic that Romans 10 places the emphasis for the nurturing of peoples' faith, and its outcomes (such as healing, according to Revivalist atheology at any rate), on the very ones who destroyed any possibility for such a development taking place to begin with: the "preachers"!

Of course this is one of the reasons that I "bang-on" so much about the absolute need for people to be fellowshipping in orthodox Christian churches, places where they will be fed on Christ's word, and then by men and women who take the preaching task very seriously, and who have received the preparation needed to do it justice.

Blessings,

Ian



19/11/2009 16:32:34


Fremde
Re :   Messianic Jewry

Good morning Ian,

Many thanks. That's good news. How odd. The Aimoo profile shows Alabama.

John


19/11/2009 16:03:03


Didaktikon
Re :   Reply To SintaxError

Good morning, STE.

Indeed. The published literature on this subject is extensive enough, and is more than adequate for those who aren't so lazy as to eschew a little reading in order to become acquainted with the broad contours of the debate. I've not read the book you referred us to, but I would like to make a recommendation or two of my own.

I found "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins an entertaining read, not because I found him convincing, but because he was so passionate for his cause. And completely ill-informed on matters of philosophy and theology, which was, by-and-large, the intellectual basis and substance underpinning the book. "The Dawkins Delusion" by Alister McGrath was also highly entertaining (and educational), and a convincing rejoinder to the former, written by a scholar with earned Oxford doctorates in both Molecular Biophysics and Theology. What McGrath did very well, was to demonstrate Dawkins' logical, philosophical and theological misunderstandings and fallacies in a way that the average person could readily grasp. McGrath has also written, "Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life", "A Fine-tuned Universe: A Quest for God in Science and Theology" and "Glimpsing the Face of God", all aimed at the "popular" market. However, he has published several far meatier volumes: "The Science of God", which serves as an introduction to McGrath's scholarly work in the field; and his three-volume opus, "Scientific Theology". Anyone capable of second and third-order thinking, and who isn't afraid of slowly digesting and pondering significant technical discussions, will find the latter trilogy to be very rewarding, and often confronting, reading!

Works that I thoroughly enjoyed and can recommend which are pro-evolution include: "Science, Evolution and Creationism" by the American National Academy of Sciences and Medicine; "Evolution" by Barton, Briggs et al; "Your Inner Fish" by Shubin, and "Relics of Eden: the Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA" by Fairbanks. Most of these would probably fit the "for well-educated readers" category.

Blessings,

Ian



19/11/2009 15:39:19


Didaktikon
Re :   Reply To Fremde

Good morning, John.

Well, the last time that I checked, Brisbane was in the Australian state of Queensland, not the American state of Alabama

Blessings,

Ian



19/11/2009 14:59:57


Fremde
Re :   Why I left the Revival Fellowship

I knew I shouldn't have left that umlaut off. Now the German language police have me under surveillance!


19/11/2009 07:17:43


Fremde
Re :   Messianic Jewry

Thanks for your reply Eric,

Your profile shows you as being in Alabama. The only thing I know about Alabama is that it's easy to take the ivory from Alabama Elephants because their "Tuskareloosa". In my youth I used to work for International Harvester in Melbourne and one of my bosses was from Alabama, hence I learned that corny Groucho Marx line.

I don't think you'd come all the way over here just to go to Synagogue with either of my closest Jewish friends Michael or Itzy, who I know would be pleased to bring you as their guest, but if USA Synagogues are anything like the ones here, you'd be welcomed I am sure.

A bit like Christian churches there is every flavour from Orthodox where men and women are separated, a lot of the ceremony/service is in Hebrew (there is usually a service guide in English), but the sermon is usually in English, and if the Rabbi knows a Gentile is present he will probably go the trouble of explaining what is going on and why and/or allocate someone to assist and befriend you, to the very Liberal Synagogues that tend to have a large part of the service in English, and Oy Evay! there may even be a Female Rabbi!

I have two copies (originals not pirated) of the DVD "Messiah Prophesy Fulfilled"

"A dramatic Gospel presentation of the birth of Christianity, showing how one rabbi becomes a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth. being filled with the Holy Spirit, Rabbi Yehudah zealously embarks on a journey to share the Good News with his people. He arrives to his hometown, precisely one year after the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of the Messiah. Now his greatest challenge is to convince his loved ones that the long awaited Messiah Son of David has finally come."

If you would like one (to keep) send me a private message with you address details and I will Airmail it to you.

Roses are red, violets are blueish, if Jesus hadn't come, we might all be Jewish!

Lech l'shalom (may you journey to peace)

John



19/11/2009 07:14:56


Galien
Re :   Why I left the Revival Fellowship

Does anyone know why some of yesterdays posts are missing? I suspect the clever moddy deleted all the rubbish ones. And a good job too


19/11/2009 02:03:44


SintaxErro
Re :   Why I left the Revival Fellowship

 Hi All,
A very good book which addresses the topics of God and evolution (amongst others) is John Lennox's "God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?" available from Koorong for $9 and is an excellent investment to all who are interested in the science/religion debates. You can easily read it in a few days and possibly be spared the waste of time involved in creating "yet another" debate about the incompatibility of christianity and the theory of evolution.

It's written by a professor of mathematics from oxford university, so it contains no Ken Ham style kookiness, and no obvious untruths, like the assertion earlier in this thread that all remains of pre-historic humans could fit into a shoe box.

Basically, it is a very engaging comparison of the theistic and naturalistic worldviews and how these interface with the scientific method. Every chapter provides much food for thought and stimulus for further inquiry. 

Personally I would recommend this book to Riddler and other interested parties, and since people have been arguing over the implications of Darwins theory for the past 150 years, yet another (!!!) inflamed debate on the internet, especially by the partially-informed, will not solve the issue.

But since even Glossolalia has mentioned Christian writers who are evolutionists, I don't see why there is a need to argue this way or the other? The questions that Christianity addresses are far graver than whether we share the past biologically with the apes, or whether we were transposed into our earthly existence by more elusive means.

SinTaxError


19/11/2009 01:03:49


Metanoian
Re :   Reply To Fremde

Reply to Fremde

Metanoian,

I was born and raised in Caulfield, Victoria, which, post war was a strong Roman Catholic suburb, But by the time I finished High School (dropped out really) about a third of Caulfield High School was Jewish. Caulfield these days is very Jewish. In my last year my best friend was Michael and he was Jewish. We drifted after High School, but kept running into each other every few years and each time we relived our friendship. I got conscripted, married and joined the PRC (a Revival offshoot) and Michael was but an occasional memory. About 25 years ago we met again at a High School reunion and had a great time reminiscing about our misspent youth. Again we did no follow up. There was another School reunion five years later, but Michael was not there. I tracked him down to his business and when I walked in the door his face lit up. This time we kept the friendship alive. He had married another school friend's sister and his son was struggling with his first year of VCE, so my son who had become a schoolteacher became his tutor. The circle has grown with my "gentile" friends being introduced into their Jewish Community and Michael's friends and family being introduced into our community of friends, Christian and otherwise.

At a Reserve Army Gathering, I ran into yet another Jew I went to school with. He was alone and looking a bit isolated, so I approached him and reminded him of our school days. He already knew Michael, so the group enlarged.

Michael and I have had many discussions about Jesus Christ and I am forthright about telling him and other Jews about Christ as the Messiah. There is a very good DVD I bought from Koorong called "The Messiah: Prophecy Fulfilled" which I gave to Michael and a few days later he said to me "I had no idea that there were so many prophecies about the Messiah in the Torah". On Friday nights, for exercise and "fellowship" we would walk from North Caulfield where he lived  down through east St Kilda and Balaclava and back again, passing many Jews on their way to the many Synagogues, and we often ran into other Jews he knew, whom I would greet with "Shalom Shabbat" which means "Peaceful Sabbath". In discussing Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, in the New Testament, all of Hebrews and Romans Chapter 11 are excellent, because they are pointedly Jewish oriented.

I will email Michael the link to your Youtube clip. It will be interesting to see and hear his reaction.

Muzel tov,

John

Hi John, My apologies for not responding but through all the clatter of the daily postings with all those "goslings" vs Didaktikos, I somehow missed you altogether.

There is something I intend doing which will most likely unnerve Ian a little, and that is visit a synagogue service and actually watch every thing that goes on and take note. I might learn something. I have never been to a synagogue all my life but John when you read through the life of Paul through Acts and the Epistles and you see that the first works of the birthing of the church began in the synagogues. ( i.e Jesus taught in the synagogues, Paul started preaching in the synagogues etc.etc).  History teaches us that when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD70, the church broke away from Judaism altogether. (And I think Paul had already been martyred by the time of the Roman sacking but anyway.) .  But I really need to capture something of the context of the synagogues by actual observance and see if I can apply Paul in the context of his early missionary work. I'll harass one of the lecturers when we get over to Eretz Israel perhaps.

(By the way Ian is different. He makes the point of going along to any revivalist gathering that might be happening with the the hope he might get "witnessed to."
)

blessings John

Eric



19/11/2009 00:44:34


Didaktikon
Re :   'After the dust settles' - where to from here?

Tim,

First, I'm glad that you found "PleaseConsider" someways useful. Drew and I created the site with that very hope in mind. Second, feel free to contact me if you'd like to discuss any of the issues or concerns that you raised, above. My email address appears in the footer to each of my posts.

Blessings,

Ian



18/11/2009 23:06:49


MothandRus
Re :   Why I left the Revival Fellowship

Hey Riddler,

I can relate... omg, I just spent too much time that I don't have writing a spiel about evolution and crap, and then lost it all. sigh at that. So now to bullet points instead.

- I spent a couple of years venting into a blog about why relgion sucks and god doesn't exist and yadda yadda, but really, what the heck do/did I know?

- I too don't have time to study Darwin's book, nor do I have time to study theology (or Theology for Dummies, for that matter).

- Ken Ham and his AiG young earth cronies are a bunch of kooks that make the bible actually look like a literal fairy tale.

- I don't believe in evolution. They say that toads have developed longer legs to handle Australian distances, but I don't know who 'they' are, and I'm not sure I believe 'them' anyway.

- Transitional fossils 'should' be all over the shop. They're not. Even when they do find something they believe is a creature that fills a gap it only serves to make more gaps in the supposed transitional timeline of the species.

- Of all the millions of species that do exist and have previously existed in the earth, air and sea, they seem to all be perfectly designed for their habitat already. All of these millions of creatures should have left behind countless variations of their development in their wake. We went from Velociraptor to Emu without a long lineage of fossilised remains in their transformatory transitional tale? Personally, I find it difficult to believe that god blinked them all into existance at various stages over the last 30 million years, but it's the most logical explanation I can think of.



18/11/2009 22:59:01


spitchips
Re :   'After the dust settles' - where to from here?

Hello Gabbyio

I relate a lot to your post. I, too, just stayed in RF knowing I was unhappy and not wanting to be there. It became more and more of a chore to turn up at anything.

Good on you for jumping ship .... it feels weird, ah? Working without a net, what if I run into someone, etc.

It is a year almost to the day since I walked and I can't express adequately here what a wonderful year it's been, looking back. It was such a change to feel unbound and free. Like yourself, 'I didn't go insane or drink myself silly' either.

So now you've come to the point where you want to know what to believe - or whether you believe anything - looking for enlightenment.

My suggestion, based on my experience, is to be 'foundational' (if that's a word) in your approach to Christianity. I was advised to try an orthodox church where the theology is sound. I didn't even know what that meant, to be honest. I have been attending The Evangelical Anglican church and have been more than happy. As well, I have been reading a different version than the King James Version that we were so pushed to read in RF. Enlightenment is coming in bite-size chunks and I'm understanding more and more about the peace of God and the grace of God. You can start to build a relationship again with a God that is so much more than we were led to believe. That's been my experience, anyway.

I come here quite often and have been blown away by the companionship and good sense that I've found. Ian has been especially helpful, as have many others. I've never been excited before to learn all the things we've missed out on. I'm trying to be discerning and, when recommended a book to read, try not to necessarily believe everything I read. At the same time, keeping my mind open to learning.

Anyway - will leave it there. I pray you are blessed in your search for a new Christian life - go for it. Old doctrines/ways of looking at things will drop away one at a time or in whole chunks. It's time to start again - as daunting as that may sound, it's a real joy, believe me. And so you will find the strength.

God bless you in your newfound freedom.

Chips


18/11/2009 22:52:27

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