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Thisquestion was asked on another forum, so far, it has generated 120 responses (some of them laboriously long) but so far not one straight answer, so I will try it here, and see if I can get one.Which one of the following statements is false?1) God is omnipotent.2) God could not free the Jews in Exodus, without killing children.

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1) is true and 2) God did not kill the children .............................

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That's not what I asked in the second statement.............

Are you saying a mafia Godfather is innocent when he sends someone else to do the killing for him?

And the god of the O.T. ordered the deaths of children more than once. Do you deny that? Let me know.

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Not quite sure your motive for this question,

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It's a conundrum I picked up in another forum and it generated some interesting responses. I thought I'd throw the bone here and see if anyone had some interesting insights as to which one of the following statements is false. Are they both true? are they both false? The idea is to generate thought.

a) So far anonymous has said that God did not kill children, but that is not scripturally correct. In Numbers 16: 41-49 God opened up cracks in the earth so that  two of the leaders, their families and possessions fell into the cracks. God then closed the earth so that the victims were buried alive and perished. Later, God burned alive the remaining leaders (and probably their wives and children). There are many other verses that show God had no problem slaying infants with his own word.

b) mfdoom says that God could have freed the Jews without destroying the first born of every family in the nation. So why didn't he? They were innocent and had loving parents, even if a number of them, but not all, were perhaps tyrannical.

c) Brolga, you give a definition of omnipotency and agree that god shouldn't directly kill children but you believe an answer to this horrifying question is not presently available to us. You suggest that Christians should just walk in faith despite the baby killing tendencies of that god. You think that the Jesus/God of the current world is perhaps different from the one that reigned just over 2000 years ago? Is Jesus not equal to god yet is the same yesterday, today, forever, but not 2000 years ago?

Which one of the following statements is false?
1) God is omnipotent.
2) God could not free the Jews in Exodus, without killing children.

Put 100 Christians in a room and you'll probably get 2-300 different answers. As is my wont I'm not going to try to be definitive. But ... as has been alluded, the question as framed doesn't get to the guts of the issue. It's a false dichotomy. For example, as was alluded to somewhere there's option 3:

3) God is omnipotent, but chose to kill (directly or indirectly) the children

And then there's point 4:

4) the bible uses the analogy of God as a potter and people as clay, so who are we to question (rather than seek to understand) God's motives or revelation of Himself

... not to mention the various others

But you've no doubt heard all this before. Personally, I think that if someone really wants to get some (human) wisdom on this they need to do the hard yards of reading some theology.

BTW Brolga (and many ex RF'rs)
The bible actually seems to present Jesus as "Yahweh in the flesh", and the NT as a continuation of the OT. When we do some reading we find that the idea that "Yahweh of the old testament is far different than Jesus of the new testament" seems to come from corruption of (parts of) the church as it lost contact with it's Jewish roots and came under gentile (Hellenic?) philosophical influence.

Hi

Thanks for thought generating topics...as my thoughts have been elsewhere for 17 years during my CAI phase..Im really enjoying some critical thinking ....well, to the topic, my view is simple..

God certainly did kill the innocents according to the Bible, not only children but just about anyone who stood in his way really. Christians complain about the Jihad doctrine of the Islamic faith, but to me the whole Old Testament was one big Jihad. Whoever stood in the way of the Israelites got smashed. Did God change his nature in new testament times..not according to those who quote scriptures like Jesus( = God) the same, yesterday, today and forever.

Brolga, with regards to your comment that we just dont know the answer to these sorts of things and just have to accept that God is as he is and knows what he is doing, well, I for one just cant stomach that anymore. It is exactly this MASSIVE ambiguity in the Bible that causes cults like the RCI./CAI to surface and be able to justofy what they believe.

Well I wont go on as this rant probably belongs in another thread..just trying to work it all out!

bb

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Reply to : MothandRustPut 100 Christians in a room and you'll probably get 2-300 different answers.

And that's fine. That's better than one person giving an answer and everyone else nodding.

As is my wont I'm not going to try to be definitive.

No, I could write exactly what I think, but that'd be a convo killer.

But... as has been alluded, the question as framed doesn't get to the guts of the issue. It's a false dichotomy.For example, as was alluded to somewhere there's option 3:3) God is omnipotent, but chose to kill (directly or indirectly) the children

Yup, good answer

And then there's point 4:4) the bibleuses the analogyofGod asa potter and people asclay, so who are we to question (rather than seek to understand) God's motives or revelation of Himself...

I wish more people did question their version of God and use some 'god-given' intellect to realise that the intepretative texts they're reading are actually robbing them of a real life. Case in point: many oppressive cults and religions.

not to mention the various othersBut you've no doubt heard all this before.Personally, I think that if someone really wants to&nbs

I think you've covered it well, thanks for playing, and as for anyone who's really interested in challenging their thoughts on God and Christianity I've left a link to an interesting Youtube Video:

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Just curious ... is there meant to be message for me in the emoticon you've used?

Decided to add the following:

And then there's point 4:4) the bible uses the analogy of God as a potter and people as clay, so who are we to question (rather than seek to understand) God's motives or revelation of Himself...

I wish more people did question their version of God and use some 'god-given' intellect to realise that the intepretative texts they're reading are actually robbing them of a real life. Case in point: many oppressive cults and religions.

Touche!

not free the Jews in Exodus ???? ....  but the context of your question says " Exodus " NOT " Numbers "..... two different books of the Penteteuch

ANON

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RFOTE is right with his statement above about man's fraility cause of corruption in scripture.

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Thanks for the complement, but in an effort to clarify what I wrote ... I wasn't referring to corruption of the Bible, but corruption in our understanding of what it means. I believe the Bible clearly says that when He was on Earth, Jesus was "Yahweh in the flesh". I believe the Bible clearly says that the NT is a continuation of the OT. I believe the idea that "Yahweh of the old testament is far different than Jesus of the new testament" is a misunderstanding of what the Bible says. I believe that the Yahweh of the OT was/is a god of justice, love and mercy. I believe that JC in the NT was/is a god of justice, love and mercy. As the Nicene creed puts it ... different persons, same essence.

All of which makes me seem credulous to non-Christians.

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Man's disobedience to the righteousness of God, is the cause of these things. 

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Ohhh... we made god kill the babies... of course

Gotta break some eggs to make an omelette eh god?

In the New Testament in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, Jesus gave this warning in a passage of Scripture starting in verse 4:

" I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him..."

During the preaching of George Whitfield at the height of the national revival that spread through the New England colonies and became known as "The Great Awakening" of the 18 th century, it was reported that anyone who so much as raised their voice to criticise what God was doing through George Whitfield died...

so something to respectfully ponder over !!!!

anon 

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In the New Testament in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, Jesus gave this warning in a passage of Scripture starting in verse 4:" I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him

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2 Timothy 1:7  "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

Have you heard of battered wife syndrome? That's the sort of loving relationship you have with god. "Love me, or I'll give you such a backhand... and they'll keep coming bitch".

So, you haven't got a spirit of fear, but you're to fear your scary god because he'll send you to hell if you put your feet out of line. So much for mercy that endureth forever. We supposedly have free choice to do as we like as long as we know that he'll punish us forever if we don't choose him.

Luckily God is most probably imaginary and hell is definitely so.

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2 Timothy 1:7  "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

 

 TUT TUT , you have fallen in to a typical RF methodology commonly called eisegese where what you have quoted above is called prooftext.

anon 

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Reply to : MothandRust2 Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."TUT TUT , you have fallen in to a typical RF methodology commonly called eisegese where what you have quoted above is called prooftext.anon

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OH yes, tut tut... naughty me... seven years of hell for my ass and possibly out early for good behaviour. - if I'm lucky eh?

Seriously though, I'm sure there are all sorts of fear etc in your exegesis, but the argument is moot in the same way that one should fear seven years of bad luck for breaking a mirror. Superstition that leads people to fear the afterlife is not necessary when many find this life hard enough.

I'm sure that there are many people who fear logical reasoning because of an illogical fear of God and his punishments.

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Reply to : MothandRustReply to : AnonymousReply to : MothandRust2 Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."TUT TUT , you have fallen in to........ I'm sure that there are many people who fear logical reasoning because of an illogical fear of God and his punishments.What is your fear Mothy? A fear of an illogical reasoning because ofa logical fear of God and his punishments, perhaps?

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What is your fear Mothy?

Hi Brolga, thanks for asking. I fear toads and grasshoppers. I fear losing my job. I fear the scary teaching partner I share a block with. I fear driving long distances and having car trouble. I fear anything that may cause mental or physical pain for myself or family and friends. I fear... ummm... getting kidnapped and sent to a Hostel in Prague and being tortured to death by wealthy psychopaths. Tortured in hell by neverending flames for not going to church or believing in god..? Nahhhh

 A fear of an illogical reasoning

I suppose if I felt I had an illogical reasoning I would try to remedy it, but I may fear illogical reasoning is possible due to over ignorance in some areas of life - I do my best with what I've got. You believe my reasoning is illogical on the subject of punishment 'after' death? Sorry to sound patronising, but I find that a little funny.

because of a logical fear of God and his punishments, perhaps?

umm, no... I'm not sure if you've understood my beliefs on that matter. I don't believe a fear of god or his fiery pit is logical in any sense. I surely appreciate that you see logic in this concept, and that's your reality - go for it, if that's your thing. I've spent a lot of time already addressing the logic and even detailed scriptural analysis in the following threads if you're genuinely interested in what I think:

Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Lloyd Longfield is probably a universalist at heart...and HELL  

Why I don't believe in HELL  

The fear tactics of hellfire  

And here's one on the topic of this thread, for good measure:

The Nature of God - Cruel or Kind?  

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Oh by the way, for what it's worth, I fear nothing.

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LOL - Ok, I sense the Christian bravado in you that says to fear not because the Lord is with thee, and I think that's what you wanted to do as some sort of pwnage. Touche, I'll pay that. I had the same fearlessness when in Revival, but I should have had a fear in being lied to. That sort of paranoia might have got me out sooner.

You say you fear nothing? I don't believe you, 'cause I don't think you're that silly, but I think it may come down to semantics. You can still be a man (a christian man) and admit to a fear of snakes or spiders or something that's actually scary. Even Christians can be killed by either. Do you not even watch a scary movie and fear the characters you've developed empathy for may die? I'm sure you're not so robotic and emotionless that you are without any fear, eh Daredevil?

A healthy fear of heights will stop you from walking along the edge of a cliff... the fear of having your car break down on the side of a road is what helps one make sure it's serviced and fueled.

Blog entry

The Descent was a great movie. Very very dark and scary and just incredible atmosphere. I have turned into a real horror movie freak geek lately. I downloaded Hostel: Part 2 the other night and  I completely freaked out. I happen to be mature enough to understand that such a torture scenario is urban 'mythology'... Not many christians are able to suppress this sense of logic. Many believe many of us are truly going to a Hostel where we'll be tortured at the delight of whoever keeps the fire and poke sticks going.

A Christian forum talkbacker just asked me if I feared anything... do I perhaps fear Hell? He seems to think I am destined there. He says he fears NOTHING, and it just came across as Christian bravado to fear not because the Lord is with thee. He was wanting to pwn me, god bless 'im.

I'm not scared to admit I am human enough to fear all sorts of stuff. I fear toads and grasshoppers. I fear losing my job. I fear the scary teaching partner I share a block with. I fear driving long distances and having car trouble. I fear anything that may cause mental or physical pain for myself or family and friends. I fear... ummm... getting kidnapped and sent to a Hostel in Prague and being tortured to death by wealthy psychopaths.

But tortured in hell by neverending flames (on a body that will last forever, mind you), for not going to church or believing in god..? Nahhhh

But the robotic Christians fear nothing? I don't believe them or this fellow, 'cause I don't think he's that devoid of life preservation skills to be that silly, but I think it may come down to semantics. You can still be a man (a christian man) and admit to a fear of snakes or spiders or something that's actually scary. Even Christians can be killed by either - it happens. Does he even watch a scary movie and fear the characters he's developed empathy for may die? I'm sure he's not so vulcan and emotionless that you he is completely without any fear, eh Daredevil?

A healthy fear of heights will stop you from walking along the edge of a cliff... the fear of having your car break down on the side of a road is what helps one make sure it's serviced and fueled.

I truly fear that John Howard will be running this country for longer than we want. I fear if I eat another chocolate wagon wheel I'll start to look like my young pregnant friend.

Not many christians are able to suppress this sense of logic. Not sure what you mean with this one.

The previous reply was the one adressed to you. The one you have replied to was just a blog entry that I copied here for the sake of it. What I did mean what that sane horror movie buffs know that the Hostel scenario is make believe when some Christians actually do believe in a futuristic place of eternal torture. It's not a fairytale to them in their sense of what is logical.

Many believe many of us are truly going to a Hostel where we'll be tortured at the delight of whoever keeps the fire and poke sticks going. Not me. I'm not da judge 

That's good for you to believe you aren't destined for hell. I know a lot of Revivalists used to commonly finish their testimonies with, "And I hope to meet Him in the air", as if they didn't feel sure they were going to. I think it's empowering to feel that Jesus is happy with you as you are and that you don't need to feel the burden of condemnaton. Perhaps they were just being overly modest, but I truly feel that Revivalists were so legalistic that they just didn't feel like they were making the mark.

A Christian forum talkbacker just asked me if I feared anything... do I perhaps fear Hell? He seems to think I am destined there. I didn't know you had telepathic powers. Oh, of course you don't, you wouldn't have stated that, because I don't think you are at  all.

No, I was generalising stereotypes really - to make a point -  and obviously I was unfairly quoting what I would have assumed you might be thinking about non-believers. Sorry about that... it was late and I had taken my Stilnox (my favourite excuse).

He says he fears NOTHING, and it just came across as Christian bravado to fear not because the Lord is with thee. He was wanting to pwn me, hmm, perhaps a little. god bless 'im

And you might have got away with it if it weren't for those rascally kids and their mutt.

I'm not scared to admit I am human enough to fear all sorts of stuff. I fear toads and grasshoppers. Cute little creatures

I'm completely shit-scared of toads but my head is reverentially bowed towards anyone who can be fearless enough to think about one without quivering.

I fear anything that may cause mental or physical pain for myself or family and friends. I'm philosophical, just deal with it should it happen. Concern for my friends and family or course.

Yes, but that's not very pro-active. Sometimes prevention is the best cure and I'm saying that equates healthily with fear, but not in the toad quivering knee shaking way. You've already admitted that common sense is the key to driving long distances. You do all you can to ensure your car is road ready and not just dealing with problems if and when they come. As you say, it's common sense, but not too all... And what if you are driving too fast down a steep wet curvy road as I did recently. I nearly lost control of the car and I feared what might happen. Next time I will take it a lot slower... sure it's common sense, but are you stripping fear completely away from the situation?

I'm sure he's not so vulcan and emotionless that you he is completely without any fear, eh Daredevil?  I don't believe I am a robotic. There is a difference between common sense, avoiding dangers, moderation, reverence, faith and FEAR, isn't there?

As I said, it comes down to semantics. You say you are a man without fear, but I say that fear is all part of the human condition.

I truly fear that John Howard will be running this country for longer than we want. That is SCARY!! ha ha   

It's scary, bBut you don't fear it? I fear it enough to vote for the other guy.

Even Christians can be killed by either - it happens.  I'm sure he's not so vulcan and emotionless that you he is completely without any fear, eh Daredevil? Seriously though, I am a member of the SES and have had my fair share of witnessing the pain and suffering of those involved in road trauma and the like. Do you know what it feels like to hold the head of a motor cycle victim  just crushed by the wheel of a truck, and his pillion passenger standing there screaming her lungs out?  I could go on. Sorry! Emotional? Yes I do get quite emotional and fear for others, that there is a hope for them. Show me a better way outside of what (true) Christianity offers and I'll accept it.

Well that gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it? Is there a better way outside of true Christianity? I think for some, yes... indeed... but not for all. Myself I find much more value in my life and my family's life because I believe this is our window of time here before death comes and we should make the very most of it. Not speaking for you, but for many people it takes the concept  of another life, proceeding this one, to make it easier to deal with the horror that the current one involves. So what about our withering bodies and our inevitable physical death? The idea of death and finality is terrifying to many people, and that's why I believe religion is a human construct to deal with that common fear. There's another life and body coming in the next level, so meh... that's where it's at... now we have to spread the 'word'.

I'm sure you get emotional and if your religion is what it takes to get you through these things and makes it make sense for you then who is anyone to take that away from you? What is the point to this who thread? I have absolutely no idea. I think it's just a good place for people to write what they believe... this is my belief and this is why I believe it. It works for me and I have no fear in admitting to it.

You say you fear nothing and you believe that. Fair enough... that can't be a bad attitude if it works for you. What's the opposite of fear? Faith? Fearlessness? If you have no fear then you have perfect fearlessness... well done, you are now ready for the next level. heh.

Seems like we're both on same wavelength, or near abouts, at the moment. Just to expand a bit on this one though. When I quoted "Not me," I was meaning, I don't believe you or any one will be going to a place like you portrayed. I can't see in the bible it happening like that. Why would god return everyone to their bodies (resurrection) just to kill or torture them again?

Absolutely... and when people do entertain those thoughts, it takes away from god's credibility. I'm open to discussing the existence of God and I think some people do a wonderful job of making the concept credible. I think it's important to wipe away the dross to get to the heart of the matter. The Hell mythology has to be the first to go, because it flies completely in the face of what it would take for a god be remotely likeable or credible.

As simple as I might be, and as annoying as it might be for me to continue to poke and prod at these subjects, I'm not anywhere near close to coming to any conclusions. I believe if the Christian god of the bible is a reality then it all has to be logical and reasonable. It would be by his own admission that he's not the author of confusion and he would have therefore given us an intellect enough to ascertain whether He be 'mad' or 'Dad'.

Anyway, if there was someone there you didn't like, where would you tell them to go? (boom boom)

They can go to buggery.. lol... but then some might like that.