dogmafree
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1#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
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(Date Posted:27/06/2007 06:58:43)
To those of you have your thoughts trained in theology..........
Have you looked into teachings and concepts that would generally be called dharma?
I offer this link as a fairly neutral explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
Do you see these teachings as heretical to Christian teachings, complimentary, contradictory, what??????
Do you feel it is balanced to spent enormous energies studying biblical and christian history and theology without at least considering these teachings? (Or am I wrong, and are theology students actually introduced to a broader range of teachings than I suppose they are)?
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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dogmafree
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2#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
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(Date Posted:27/06/2007 07:58:18)
Reply to : SOTT1
Reply to : dogmafreeDog,Why? Why would aChristiantheologian concern him/herself with Eastern concepts including Dharma?
Ian, because there is a great deal of insight contained therein, that casts light upon the human condition, our common struggles and questions, our hopes and questions about life etc.
How would doing so better inform him or her regarding the nature of the Judeo-Christian God?
Because the God you refer to is supposedly in close relationship with all of creation. Surely, considering the observations of mankind about the order of the universe and our part in it is directly relevent. To dismiss any such teachings without consideration is bigotry and not at all indicative of an exploration into truth.
Or the Judeo-Christian Scripture? Or the Judeo-Christian ethical system?
Because it is a valuable cross-reference to those things. Being narrow-minded does not make ones appreciation of these things very fruitful.
Personally, I don't view theology as some sort of abstract discipline which exists for its own sake. Theology to me, as a Christian theologian, has a very definite goal: a closer apprehension of the nature and attributes of the Christian God whom I serve.
Fair enough. So, do you discount any other model of God (and the universe) than the Christian God, and reject all other views of God as nonsense? If so, what makes your model more valid than the others?
What you suggest has less to do with theology than it has to do with the philosophy of religion.Blessings,Ian
You probably are right there, Ian. It is more a philosophical question, but valid nevertheless!
Blessings to you too, Ian.
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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dogmafree
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3#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
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(Date Posted:27/06/2007 13:47:09)
Ian,
I can think of no greater example of the saying 'strain at a gnat and swallow a camel' than your position!
For you to postulate about being correct in your beliefs, and declare that others are 'deficient' whilst acknowledging that you have never looked into them is pure arrogant poppycock!
Many of these teachings are clearly accessible, simple to grasp, easy to comprehend and offer a great deal of wisdom, insight and understanding into life and such. Millions of people have embraced these teachings and practices because they are so practical and beneficial, and they make sense. On the other hand, the Christian bible presents a God that is ambiguous and contradictory. We read about people who are condemned to a fiery pit because someone ate an apple. A whole heap of really incredible stuff that rival any fairy story. Then a really good guy came along, and was sadistically tortured and crucified to appease some god (that is supposed to be compassionate and loving  ) to save us all. But he apparently failed miserably despite suffering a lot of shit he didn't deserve, because most people are still going to the pit. (And that's the good news!!!)
Then after he developed a following of people because he supposedly came back to life, a whole bunch of guys wrote books that everyone took and interpreted into a thousand and one different twisted religions. Millions of folk were tortured because of there fighting and differing beliefs around the crucified guy, and a bunch of cults further ruined the lives of a whole lot more, along with a couple of millenia of holy wars. But that's OK because he said he'd come back and sort out the mess. Well actually he's overdue, but don't worry about that.
So, to try and cut through all the crap, and decipher all the ambiguous mixed up text attributed to the christ guy, they made a thousand and one theological colleges to try and make sense of the whole deal. And after immersing themselves for endless years in these colleges, they come out and declare that the answer to the big riddle is that everyone is wrong (no, deficient) except for the guy we haven't seen for 2 thousand years.
STRAINING AT A GNAT and SWALLOWING A CAMEL
Ian you smack of 'the pot calling the kettle black' when you continue to condescend to people because they haven't bothered to study or research to the extend you have, yet all along, you adhere to an illogical set of beliefs while saying that other beliefs are deficient. Beliefs that you have never yourself bothered to look into to compare with others you have buried yourself in.
Narrow-minded, bigoted and arrogant hardly begins to describe your outlook.
Actually you represent YOUR god quite well!
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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MothandRust
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4#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:27/06/2007 16:05:40)
Reply to : dogmafree
We read about people who are condemned to a fiery pit because someone ate an apple. A whole heap of really incredible stuff that rival any fairy story.
Hey Brolga, I think it's a healthy thing to check outside the bible. Many of us were born into the belief that it's the be and end all of morality and truth, but unless we have some idea of alternatives then we're pretty ignorant I think. I think the christian lifestyle can make life less complicated. I agree, it's a lifestyle that works as long as you don't get 'culty' or 'zealouty'. I think there are many buddhists who also testify to loving their way of life.
Wow Dog, there's a venting. Ian's 'matter-of-factly' way of writing really gets on people's goats. I'd much prefer people just argued with his theology than his attitude. That, or present a philosophy they think is better and more logical maybe.
You know, if there's one thing I think I've studied comprehensively and with decent exegesis is that the bible doesn't measure up to the idea of hell that many christians subscribe to. Dante's version of hell if stirred up with the bible metaphors make for a very illogical doctrine. I'm gonna put the universalist hat back on for a while. Much better fit than the atheist hat... I may have to eat that hat one day.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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dogmafree
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5#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
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Registered:21/02/2006
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(Date Posted:27/06/2007 20:43:12)
Reply to : Brolga
Why is it, that mankind in general,is more inclined to believe everything else written or saidoutside of the bible than the bible itself? I for one, find that the bible gives the most accurate perspectiveand answers, than any other scource avaliable, that really works in one's life, if you follow it's teachings. All other just seem to be phylosophical ideasand thoughts of man without real evidence to back it up. Of course we have to take it (bible)in the context of what it is telling us, rather than reading our ownideas into it.Brolga
Hi there brolga,
I'm curious about some of your statements and reasonings!
You suggest that you have read and heard of other philosophical concepts, and make comparisons between these with your appreciation of the bible. Can I ask just what you have looked into? Have you looked deeply into these things, or was it a casual exploration?
And what is the evidence you speak of. You assert that all other ideas have no evidence, and imply that the bible does. I'd be interested to hear what evidence you feel backs up the bible! You do make very broad-sweeping generalisations. Can you give an example of a specific philosophical idea of man that you have explored, and how it was found wanting? Of course there are many, but to suggest they are all valueless or less helpful than the bible is (in my mind) rather astonishing.
If I can assume to be able to answer your opening question;
I'd say that there are many, many teachings that are truly wise, practical, in touch with contemporary society and issues, and offer real-world help and solutions to the questions and needs of those people. These mostly offer insights and empathy into our circumstances, before leading us into paths that make life better or more meaningful.
The bible (by comparison) is vague, contradictory, ambiguous, rascist and sexist, and condemnational for starters. Sure yes, there are a lot of really wonderful teachings too, (mostly those of Jesus) but really, so much of it is irrelevant, being written in a totally different time and place, and modern society has evolved to update much of it. By todays standards of censorship, if we turned the bible into an accurately graphic movie, we couldn't allow our children to watch it, because of the grossly dangerous and disturbing concepts it contains, and the horrors and violence (in many cases condoned by god BTW).
There are many cases of dysfunctional & damaging behaviour being taught and practiced by folk based upon scripture. One that I see frequently is the intolerance shown to anybody that is not doing things 'there way', to family breakdowns, depression due to religious oppression, etc, etc, etc.
Then there are countless cases we read on this forum of lives shipwrecked, all whilst living within a regime of dedicated bible-following believers. It is a convenient cop-out to say that all these cases were just people going astray and not reading it properly. IF THE BOOK WAS CLEARER, they would not be able to misconstrue it so completely! The fact that the book has failed miserably in providing a clear direction to enjoy a happy, fulfilling, fruitful life to the masses is painfully obvious!
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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MothandRust
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6#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:28/06/2007 05:10:42)
Reply to : Brolga
?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comTo moth:I agree.To Dog:
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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MothandRust
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7#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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(Date Posted:28/06/2007 05:39:24)
Choosing a god is a very important and difficult task as there are so many to choose from. Picking the wrong god could result in eternal damnation and fire. Can you take that chance? I thought not... Let's get started...
1. Assemble a complete list of all the gods ever worshipped. Many of these are well documented, so the task shouldn't be too difficult. Google GOD. I'd estimate somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 gods, not counting all those minor ones. This should be easily achieved in a few days or weeks. If any of those pesky JW's knock on the door, just ignore them. Ask the boss for some time off, if necessary, and tell him what you're doing. I'm sure he/she will understand.
2: List all the attributes associated with these gods, but be careful of the dodgy misintpretations of said gods. Some are maniacal punishing thugs, gods of hate, fire and all manor of brutality and damnation, eliminate these types, we'll just stick with loving and rewarding gods. This may be somewhat more difficult than step one, but remember, the reward will be worth it. Don't be influenced by the god your parents chose, they could be wrong, too. Lets keep it fair and honest. It may be necessary to hire a few unemployed scribes to help for a few months, but what the hell, er heck.
3. Having once assembled all the good gods, the list may still be unmanageably long, so eliminate those whose names you cannot pronounce or spellings that seem weird and unreasonable. A real god should be easy to pronounce. I'm suspicious of gods whose heads and bodies are from differing species too, but who knows? This should bring the list to a few hundred or perhaps a thousand.
4. To be fair, put the list in alphabetical order. (This will put Zeuss last though and that seems hardly fair, poor guy).
5. Pray to the first god for 10 minutes, If he/she's listening this should be enough time and then wait for 24 hours. If nothing good happens, move on to the next god and repeat the process. In a year or two, you should have narrowed the field to a mere handful at which time you again repeat the process keeping only those deities who seemed to show promise. The real god should show repeatability. Scratch all the others. By now you should have determined which god to keep and which to eliminate. I'm confident the real god will appreciate all your effort and determination, at least, he should. Having successfully determined the real god, ask him for the winning lotto numbers just to make life a little easier.
If none of this seems to work, you can give up and become a heathen atheist, at least forgoing all that guilt and fear and with the 10% tithing money you save, you can buy a good book or one of those new electronic gadgets. I assume all the gods have the same 10% service charge..? By the way, if you think this seems silly, perhaps you'd do well to step back and review your god. Can any god look less silly than any other god? I think not.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Frank Spike
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8#
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Rank:Member
Score:1060
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Registered:15/04/2007
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(Date Posted:28/06/2007 08:01:01)
Reply to : SOTT1
Reply to : dogmafreeHi, Dog.I said:"Why? Why would a Christian theologian concern him/herself with Eastern concepts including Dharma?"Ian, because there is a great deal of insight contained therein, that casts light upon the human condition, our common struggles and questions, our hopes and questions about life etc.To whit I would respond,allthat I need to know on the above issues is contained within Christian ScriptureI said:"How would doing so better inform him or her regarding the nature of the Judeo-Christian God?"Because the God you refer to is supposedly in close relationship with all of creation. Surely, considering the observations of mankind about the order of the universe and our part in it is di
Dude Dude you gotta watch this video at this web site it's great. well not for you but for you neighbours and brothers and sisters. This is real man and well the truth hurts and boy are you going to feel pain. Like I was watching this video and I was like saying to myself "self why did you not know this before and why did you stick around so long in this cult and like stay with this guy having power over you and like taking your life away from you with out giving any thing back" And I found this and said to myself " well self there's you answer it's just a con job the whole things not just this cult but the whole Christain and religion this is a con job for stupid people." I said to myself I did I did!!
So like watch this and learn and get back to me and all. Dude
http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?t=7516
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"Until the philosophy that holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned, then everywhere is war"
I"ve seen a lot of strange stuff, but I"ve never seen anything to make me believe there"s one all-powerful force controlling everything. There"s no mystical energy field controls my destiny.?
If there is a God I don"t like him
AND ALL THE PEOPLE SAID
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bindi
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9#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3270
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Registered:10/09/2006
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(Date Posted:28/06/2007 10:17:15)
Reply to : MothandRust
I think it's a healthy thing to check outside the bible.
I think so too Moth.. After being indoctrinated to such an extent that we have only seen 'one side', it is good to step outside of the box and discover what others beliefs, philosophies and theories there are in this world. Be they truth or fairytales. I would like to think that we have gained enough wisdom now, being outside of the churches, to determine which is a load of crock and which has some truth attached to it.
Many of us were born into the belief that it's the be and end all of morality and truth, but unless we have some idea of alternatives then we're pretty ignorant I think. I think the christian lifestyle can make life less complicated. I agree, it's a lifestyle that works as long as you don't get 'culty' or 'zealouty'. I think there are many buddhists who also testify to loving their way of life.
When you come to think of it, putting aside all of the 'rules and regs' of the differing, the general core of ALL religions or beliefs are basically the same. You know what I mean... Fruits of the 'spirit' type stuff. You ( generally speaking ) go with what works for YOU I guess. Follow a path that makes you and those around you happy. And like you said.. don't become too culty or overtly zealous.
Wow Dog, there's a venting. Ian's 'matter-of-factly' way of writing really gets on people's goats. I'd much prefer people just argued with his theology than his attitude. That, or present a philosophy they think is better and more logical maybe.
I have much respect for people who have studied a subject to such an extent that they know what they are talking about. However, I think why such a person ( once again, generally speaking ) gets up anothers goat is because they put forth their knowledge without any respect for anothers point of view. Dogmatic dare I say, in their way of speaking. If their knowledge was put forth in a much gentler and respectful way, others may be more inclined to 'listen' to what they have to say and therefore engage in conversation. Concerning Ian, it seems to me that it is either his way or no way. Not willing to perhaps look outside of his box and research other things. And fair enough! If he is happy with what he has learnt and it suits his way of life, good for him! However, it would be nicer if he did not knock anothers point of view or discredit their intelligence just because it does not go along the lines of his personal belief or knowledge.
I'm gonna put the universalist hat back on for a while. Much better fit than the atheist hat... I may have to eat that hat one day.
Yeah.... I'm with you at the moment. It seems to me that its a kinder concept to adhere too. It, for me, makes a lot more sense than other concepts at the moment. I don't think I've ever worn the atheist hat. Don't think I ever will but ya never know! lol
Regards.... Bindi
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" IF I COULD WISH FOR MY LIFE TO BE PERFECT, IT WOULD BE TEMPTING BUT I WOULD HAVE TO DECLINE, FOR LIFE WOULD NO LONGER TEACH ME ANYTHING."
Allyson Jones
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