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Title: Saul, Saul, why getteth thee thou story so wrong?
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Te Luo Yi
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Registered: 25/04/2005

(Date Posted:20/03/2007 04:03:12)

What is up with Christians and the story of Paul's conversion? Why do they throw this story up as 'evidence' or 'proof' of the Christian religion? As a Christian I always thought the story of Paul's conversion was relevant in that it was the conversion account of the most influential Apostle for the later Church, but proof or evidence? Why would a non-believer be moved by the account of an Apostle's conversion? I never used it in my witnessing as I could just hear non-believers saying, "So? How do we even know that is a true story?" or "Who cares? Who's he?" Yet for many Christians this story holds water for some reason. Evangelists would sometimes preach the story and even get a response at the altar-call. I never understood that. As I ponder it I think that maybe it is the drama of it. The hard-ass persecutor gets zapped and becomes the hard-ass Apostle. I guess that much of it makes a good story. Perhaps there are some archetypes in there that resonate with us. Like Darth Vader's deathbed conversion at the end ofReturn of the Jedi, we all love it when bad guys turn good. The story of Paul's conversion is told 3 times in the book of Acts (9; 22; 26). And yep, you guessed it, the stories don't match up. The accounts are not only different but in some places, irreconcilable. After the light hits Paul and Jesus talks to Paul the stories conflict.Act 9:7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,hearing a voice, but seeing no man.Act 22:9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but theyheard not the voiceof him that spake to me.OK, so there we have the guys with Paul hearing the voice and then not hearing the voice. So which one is it? It can't be both.Act 9:4, 7, 8Andhe fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?...And the men which journeyed with himstoodspeechless... AndSaul arosefrom the earthAct 22:7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?Act 26:14And whenwe were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?And here we have Acts 9 & 22 saying it was only Paul who fell and then chapter 9 even saying that that the other men were standing, but chapter 26 says they all fell. Which is it? It can't be both. Either Paul fell alone, or they all fell together. Go and read the NIV to see how the Evangelicals involved in that translation have amended this apparent error. They have changed the word 'hear' in Acts 22:9 to 'understand' which is something earlier and later translations including the KJV and RSV do not do for good reason. The Greek word for 'hear' in verse 9 simply shouldn't be translated as 'understand' (seehere). One guy fell, they all fell. One guy heard a voice, they all heard heard a voice. How did I ever believe God had a hand in that book?But wait, there's more...In Galatians, a largely undisputed epistle of Paul, he says that he did not straight away go to Jerusalem to see the other Apostles after his conversion.But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood,nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia;and again I returned to Damascus. Thenafter three years I went up to Jerusalemto visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. (In what I am writing to you,before God, I do not lie!)(Galatians 1:15-20 RSV)But then the account in Acts say the exact opposite. After he left Damascus the first time he went straight to Jerusalem and eventually mixed freely with the Apostles.And when he had come to Jerusalem he attempted to join the disciples; and they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, andbrought him to the apostles, and declared to themhow on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. Sohe went in and out among themat Jerusalem,(Acts 9:26-28 RSV)This contradiction matters as Paul is making a serious point in Galatians which testifies to his right to claim Apostleship. Paul claims to have been called directly by God. His Apostleship was not given by other Apostles and he did not confer with them. If the Acts account is true then Paul's argument here in Galatians is undermined. He even goes so far to assure us that he isn't lying.Inspired book? Methinks not.

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Wanna know why I do not believe in Jesus anymore?

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Te Luo Yi
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(Date Posted:16/04/2007 03:05:39)

*bump*

Any takers on this one?

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Wanna know why I do not believe in Jesus anymore?

http://whyidontbelieve.blogspot.com

Aimoo Team




(Date Posted:16/04/2007 17:02:14)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
SOTT1
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Registered:22/02/2007


(Date Posted:19/04/2007 02:24:15)

Reply to : Brolga

'morning, Brolga.

Had a quick look at it and I don't think we need to become overly concerned one way or the other. The message is still there. After all, the writings are just copies of the originals and human frailty does exist.

And I'd pretty much agree with you. But I suppose it best if I begin with a few observations. First, it seems to me that many people (both Christians and ex-Christians alike) hold to the slightly weird concept that the Bible somehow descended to earth from heaven on a golden thread--untouched by human hands, and requiring nothing in the way of human agency. I would suggest that such a view of the transmission of Scripture is best relegated to the doctrinal equivalent of Microsoft's Recycle Bin', given that it's nothing more than naive rubbish. Sadly, the same sorts of people who believe the 'golden thread' stuff above also tend to make a fair amount of noise about 'inerrancy' (or rather, one very specific theory of inerrancy). People such as these often fail to construct for themselves, a 'layered' approach to their Christian faith and beliefs. Instead of concentric circles working from core beliefs outwards to peripheral beliefs, everything is 'flattened' out and one dimensional. In other words, they basically lack a taxonomy of belief. This particular approach to faith frequently lends itself to what some people call a 'fragile faith': something is challenged or apparently contradicted, the net effect being that the Christian's faith doesn't simply bend a little, it shatters completely! "If this passage isn't in the Bible, then the Bible must be wrong, then God mustn't really exist, then Jesus rotted in the grave", etc. etc. The group of Christians most often afflicted by such a shallow approach to Christianity are fundamentalists, and it's former fundamentalists who tend to become the most strident and vocal critics of orthodox Christianity. Ithink it quite a pity that such people didn't exercise their brains a little better when they were yet Christians But to be fair, fundamentalism itself doesn't really promote honest enquiry or research.

I have always had the thought, if Paul had not come on the scene, whether things would be much less confusing in Christianity today had it been left to the Apostles (Peter etc) to carry on the work. They where the ones that Jesus spoke to the most while he was on earth.

Nope. Paul's theology is perfectly orthodox in what he states, just as Peter's theology is perfectly orthodox in what he states. But the question that must be asked is this: why should it somehow be necessary for Paul and Peter to share an identical theology? After all, they were addressing different communities each of which had different needs.

However, anticipating Sott's comment on the subject. I'm sure there is a clear explanation.

There are several rather clear explanations that addresses the above 'storm in a teacup': some are philosophical, some are theological and some are strictly textual.

From a textual basis, it's important that we appreciate that there exists two principle and competing text types or forms in which the book of Acts appears, one of them being about a quarter longer than the other. And there's good evidence to suggest that the same author may have actually 'published' both! Now, within the two principle text types of forms there exists literally hundreds and hundreds of variant readings. This is a simple fact and reality when ancient documents were copied by hand over an extended period of centuries. Next it's important to acknowledge that Acts, as a biblical book, wasn't particularly well known, represented or appreciated in the Christian Church during its first two centuries. Consequently, it wasn't so carefully copied as were, for example, the Gospels (which have far fewer variant readings). Further, it's true that Church tradition ascribes Acts to Luke, and Luke specifically states in the prologue his gospel, that {1} many other Christians had written accounts of what had happened, and {2} that he had consulted them during his own investigations. So Luke used human sources when he penned both his gospel and the Acts (there is no 'golden thread' here).

Now if I might change tack a little. 'History', as accepted and understood by the 1st century Greco-Roman world, does not correspond in toto to 'history' as accepted and understood by the 21st century western world. In the ancient world primary sources (both verbal and written) were used far more freely than they are today, 'facts' in and of themselves were much less concrete (and important) than was the way in which they were applied, and for what, precisely, they were used to promote and/or defend. So modern, western fundamentalist Christians (and ex-Christians) often apply some very anachronistic thinking when they approach Scripture. My own perspective is that Christian Scripture is supposed to be: "...useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness", why? "...so that the Christian might be properly and fully equipped for service." Does Christian Scripture serve this end? I would boldly suggest, 'yes, it indeed does'.

A closing question: why impose an artificial and wholly modern philosophical standard to a work that was penned in a time, culture and situation so thoroughly removed from our own? And secondly, why reject the Bible message simply because one might harbour a doubt or two about a few passages, here and there?

Neither makes much sense to me.

God bless,

Ian
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