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MothandRust
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1#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:11/02/2008 08:40:35)
Although Christians claim to be the 'keepers' of morality, there seem to be plenty who can't keep their cocks in their frocks. Other than the labels they dish out and the pious image they cloak on during the sunday morning brainwash sessions, they're as human as everyone else... unfortunately these moralists believe that a prayer and confession will wipe the slate clean so they 'hopefully' won't sin again.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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MothandRust
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2#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:11/02/2008 08:42:11)
OH and, it's freaking cool that you posted here in the old stomping ground. You bloody legend you.
Bows to the snakegod, for she is worthy of it.... and you're real.. which is a bonus.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Didaktikon
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3#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:11/02/2008 16:09:08)
Although Christians claim to be the 'keepers' of morality, there seem to be plenty who can't keep their cocks in their frocks. Other than the labels they dish out and the pious image they cloak on during the sunday morning brainwash sessions, they're as human as everyone else... unfortunately these moralists believe that a prayer and confession will wipe the slate clean so they 'hopefully' won't sin again. |
Good morning, Moth.
Well, now. I truly thought that you weren't quite so naive, nor so obviously biased in your general approach to discussions of this sort. I guess I was mistaken. However, what's with the global statement: "Christians (unqualified) claim to be the 'keepers' of morality"? Tell me where the followers of Jesus claim this particular role and/or privilege? And given that you didn't qualify the claim, you clearly believe it to be universal and applicable to all Christians. Tsk, tsk, tsk  Next, "pious image(s)", "cloak(s)", "Sunday morning brainwash sessions"? Interesting to find you, a government appointed school teacher, passing judgment on social indoctrination, a la "brainwashing". Well, if nothing else I suppose all those Christians "out there" are guilty of doing so for only one day of the week  And finally, the coup de grace, "...these moralists believe that a prayer and confession will wipe the slate clean..." Sorry, bloke, but such is not the Christian understanding at all  Heartfelt penitence may serve to repair the spiritual breach with God, but it doesn't absolve one from the social and legal consequences and ramifications. God's forgiveness is to be counter-balanced with society's. Justice requires more than a simple, "oh, well, I'm very sorry." Moth, my friend, your post above has to be the most ill-conceived piece of partisan drivel that I've yet seen you produce. To be blunt, it's beneath you  Blessings, Ian Post script: you might care to do a little research into the statistics of sexual abuse by those in authority. The last time that I personally checked, school-teachers apparently led Christian ministers by a small margin. Just a thought to ponder.
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Guest
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:11/02/2008 20:24:15)
I must admit I'm biased due to the nature of the websites and blogs I visit.
I'm sure that there are evil people in every proffesion. They just seem to stand out more when they're church leaders. As a revivalist, I would and could never have imagined that any of our pastors would have been capable of sex crimes.
I've also seen situations in Revival where sexual criminals have been protected from the law because the church 'knows' them to have been 'forgiven'. It's not right and it's not the way of the real world. Sexual criminals should be made known and publicly punished, not hidden away in churches.
As far as morality goes, I've read plenty of popular evangelists who dismiss atheists of being capable of morality. I'm sure this is a bastardisation of your christianity... however, the animal exists.
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Didaktikon
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5#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To is_aimoo_guest
(Date Posted:11/02/2008 22:30:52)
I must admit I'm biased due to the nature of the websites and blogs I visit.
I'm sure that there are evil people in every proffesion. They just seem to stand out more when they're church leaders. As a revivalist, I would and could never have imagined that any of our pastors would have been capable of sex crimes.
I've also seen situations in Revival where sexual criminals have been protected from the law because the church 'knows' them to have been 'forgiven'. It's not right and it's not the way of the real world. Sexual criminals should be made known and publicly punished, not hidden away in churches.
As far as morality goes, I've read plenty of popular evangelists who dismiss atheists of being capable of morality. I'm sure this is a bastardisation of your christianity... however, the animal exists. |
Mothster,
If such is the case, then perhaps you should be a little more discerning in the blogs and the websites that you choose to visit. After all, the old adage rings true: if you want to best understand a given matter, then you should seek out the best representative of the particular POV  Now, your previous comment sought to "tar" Christian ministers; your current one waxes lyrical with respect to Revivalist ministers. The two are not, and should not, be thought of as being co-terminus. Who says that one is even a subset of the other?!  And finally, with respect to the "animal" under discussion; I could quite simply (and no doubt very effectively) lampoon all manner of popularist agnostics and/or atheists. But shooting such fish in very small barrels would hardly be construed as being sporting! So read again my first paragraph  Blessings, Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Guest
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 01:06:48)
I must admit I'm biased due to the nature of the websites and blogs I visit.
I'm sure that there are evil people in every proffesion. They just seem to stand out more when they're church leaders. As a revivalist, I would and could never have imagined that any of our pastors would have been capable of sex crimes.
I've also seen situations in Revival where sexual criminals have been protected from the law because the church 'knows' them to have been 'forgiven'. It's not right and it's not the way of the real world. Sexual criminals should be made known and publicly punished, not hidden away in churches.
As far as morality goes, I've read plenty of popular evangelists who dismiss atheists of being capable of morality. I'm sure this is a bastardisation of your christianity... however, the animal exists. |
Mothster,
If such is the case, then perhaps you should be a little more discerning in the blogs and the websites that you choose to visit. After all, the old adage rings true: if you want to best understand a given matter, then you should seek out the best representative of the particular POV
Now, your previous comment sought to "tar" Christian ministers; your current one waxes lyrical with respect to Revivalist ministers. The two are not, and should not, be thought of as being co-terminus. Who says that one is even a subset of the other?!
And finally, with respect to the "animal" under discussion; I could quite simply (and no doubt very effectively) lampoon all manner of popularist agnostics and/or atheists. But shooting such fish in very small barrels would hardly be construed as being sporting! So read again my first paragraph
Blessings,
Ian |
Well said Ian
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universal_soldier
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7#
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Rank:Lurker
Score:170
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 01:13:23)
Reply to snakechic (10/02/2008 8:16 PM).
Giving your 'power' over for what?
Seems that custom lives on here with some post revivalists? (who's your 'expert' bible scholar" these days?) Another holy roller professing the 'truth'...and playing that ever so childish game of 'nah' 'nah', they are all 'false' teachers, all except ME...Me ME....Me...."
YOu still get hooked into that one?
Oh well.....
Huge Congrats to those who don't buy it any longer!
Wondering if you know who this 'expert' in family and spiritual affairs is? Got caught out sometime ago. Was he yet another penticostal type who preaches 'love' and that weirdly amusing ..'beware of the world' extremism or argues the odds and sods of 'speaking in tongues' ...while always adding that endearingly HATeful bottomline of trying to tell you of your fate in a mythical afterlife?. How the fuck would they know anyway...and what gives them or the right to 'judge' you like that?
Check this story...We all know how well christians gossip...someone should know who this christian criminal is.
Pastor sentenced to 8yrs for incestPosted Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:31pm AEST A pastor from a South Australian fundamentalist church has been jailed for eight-and-a-half years after admitting he had sex with two of his teenage daughters. The 54-year-old man, who cannot be named, pleaded guilty to seven counts each of incest and unlawful sexual intercourse. The court heard that the man had sex with his daughters for nearly a decade in the 1990s at the family property. The man later told the court he had sex with the girls to "educate" them on how to be good wives - not for his own gratification. Judge David Lovell rejected that, saying the man's explanation for the abuse "defied belief". In setting a four-year non-parole period, Judge Lovell said the man had "good prospects" of rehabilitation, and continued to have the support of his wife and church. Tags: law-crime-and-justice, courts-and-trials, sexual-offences, adelaide-5000
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/30/2020039.htm
These people need to be questioned - not blindly followed because they give themselves the title of 'pastor' or scholar....A degree or 2 doesn't guarantee tiddlytwat ...
Yep..there is no full proof way to guarantee anything from any kind of church. Buyer beware! |
Don't tar all us good christians with the same brush thank you!
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MothandRust
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8#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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Registered:27/02/2004
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 05:03:32)
Oh...... umm..... ermm.. Shaddup!
ha ha... ok. A little 'bad'-Christian bashing with the snake for old time's sake.
School teachers are ahead of Church ministers?!! Where on earth do these statistics come from and where do they get posted? Someone's doing a tally? I don't truly doubt it, nor do I disbelieve the claim, but it's always hard to believe, isn't it?
Although I'm far from understanding the mind of a child molester, I can sort of understand why sick minded people may take on the profession as a way of being around children to gain their trust and take evil advantage... but all the reports I hear about pastors and priests from exchristian.net are a little harder to understand.
These are men who claim to love the bible and the morals and ethics that go with it. They take on a 'high ground'(?) of sorts and devote their lives to preaching that message. I really don't understand what the celibacy vows do to a man, but surely they'd make men weaker for women that young children...? Again, I don't comprehend, nor want to, what goes on in their demented twisted minds.
As far as Revivalists go, I've never heard of child-molestation accused of pastors... except CAI, but I don't know what the hell they go on about in that forum. I can't tell the trolls from the moles.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Didaktikon
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9#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 16:01:59)
Oh...... umm..... ermm.. Shaddup!
ha ha... ok. A little 'bad'-Christian bashing with the snake for old time's sake.
School teachers are ahead of Church ministers?!! Where on earth do these statistics come from and where do they get posted? Someone's doing a tally? I don't truly doubt it, nor do I disbelieve the claim, but it's always hard to believe, isn't it?
Although I'm far from understanding the mind of a child molester, I can sort of understand why sick minded people may take on the profession as a way of being around children to gain their trust and take evil advantage... but all the reports I hear about pastors and priests from exchristian.net are a little harder to understand.
These are men who claim to love the bible and the morals and ethics that go with it. They take on a 'high ground'(?) of sorts and devote their lives to preaching that message. I really don't understand what the celibacy vows do to a man, but surely they'd make men weaker for women that young children...? Again, I don't comprehend, nor want to, what goes on in their demented twisted minds.
As far as Revivalists go, I've never heard of child-molestation accused of pastors... except CAI, but I don't know what the hell they go on about in that forum. I can't tell the trolls from the moles. |
Good morning, Moth.
Let me begin by being somewhat blunt: are you saying that you adapt your personality, your posts and your ethics to accommodate the lowest common denominator? That's even worse than I originally thought! Where sits integrity?! Anyway, I think you might be surprised at the sorts of statistics kept by certain government departments, especially those that have to deal with the abuse of children on a daily basis (e.g. DoCS); but the point of the comparison obviously wasn't lost on you As the saying goes: people whose professions occupy glass offices ought not to be in the habit of hefting rocks at others similarly enscounsed, or something like that And finally, I believe you have too high an opinion of what it is that motivates predators, whether priestly or otherwise. Irrespective of "calling" or occupation, human beings remain human beings, sin remains sin, and people will always be driven bya range of mixed motivations. So why on earth would you automatically presume ministers to be completely altruistic? Is a minister any different from anyone else ... from me or you? Surely your time spent in Revivalism innoculated you to the naive belief that men who presume to speak for God are automatically "better" than those who don't? Anyway, enough of this rant... Blessings, Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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MothandRust
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10#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 17:55:41)
Not sure who's leading who up the garden path here...
My personality disorders are my own and I have a few of them. They'll go to any denominator I see fit and if you find me short of integrity, well, I really don't give a flying frak... Not that I don't appreciate your "aquaintanceship" here, but I've had a habit of being erratic and that's me, and I'm not seeking your approval. I'm worse that you thought? Ha... poor me. Not altogether stable and normal as far as I can tell. But let's not make this about me. Let's focus on the thread at hand... molesting authority figures... which aren't me. Thank you Jesus.
No I certainly don't think religious leaders are better than me. I'm sure there are people "better" than me, but it's all relative. Better tennis players than me. Better moralists? Better teachers? Better people? There's certainly worse, but I'm sure we could all be better than the sum of our parts and hopefully try. I try... sometimes.
I was just saying that a minister has picked a vocation where it's their self-proclaimed job to be and teach their morality. Not many jobs have that as a major part of the job description. So when a priest is a predator and molests someone... it just seems crazier than a guy named Harry who has made welding his vocation. Nothing against welders... just being random.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Didaktikon
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11#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 18:52:52)
Pete,
Don't read too much into my posts, to then get all quirky and reactionary on me. You know that should you say something really stupid, that I'll point it out But you also know that I still luvs ya, "erratic" as you are 
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 12/02/2008 18:54:33)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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MothandRust
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12#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 22:56:23)
I didn't have any hard feelins really, but reading it back it may look like I did... just keeping a conversation going. I often want to delete my posts a short time ----after---- I post them, but you respond before I get around to it.
It takes some discipline 'not' to post without thinking.
Who watches the Watchmen? Don't spend too much time pulling me up for saying stupid stuff... you'll do your wrists in on the keyboard. Mine's literally in a sling today.
(Message edited by MothandRust On 12/02/2008 22:58:15)
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Fremde
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Rank:Regular Member
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 23:41:33)
If you two get any soppier you might attract the Scott Williams to make a threesome!
(takes one large cat and ......into the pigeons it goes)
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Didaktikon
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14#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
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Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Fremde
(Date Posted:12/02/2008 23:46:48)
If you two get any soppier you might attract the Scott Williams to make a threesome!
(takes one large cat and ......into the pigeons it goes) |
Sorry, but I wouldn't know how to do that, as I've never been in the CAI
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Aimoo Team
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:13/02/2008 00:58:48)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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snakechic
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16#
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Rank:Noob
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RE:Lead up the garden path......Your belief in an 'expert' / pastor / scholar
(Date Posted:29/04/2008 18:02:31)
Why does a discussion on the topic of child sexual abuse revert to silly game (ego) of which professional body has the most sexual abuse victims in its ranks. ? Shows how little thought is given to victims. I think anyone with the slightest idea of stats would figure that they are far from accurate in any social situation but particularly useless in sexual abuse issues as well as family violence (which of course happens in all strata's of society) . They represent only the tip of the iceburg and is common knowledge in the 'helping' professions including Family & community agencies.
This is not about the sensitivities of a poor self righteous christian who don't like to see 'their' faith or their 'leaders' being questioned or seen in a less than in a perfect light.
But I think that is the entire point. That within the religious organisations ...particularly among the independents ie. the revivialists and other fundamentalists, there is an immense lack of accountability or structures in place to deal with any kind of complaints. They are arrogant enough to refuse Public Liability Insurance which is expensive and therefore have a very big interest in dumbing down or silencing peoples questions on what actually happens within their 'flock'. There is a culture or system of secrecy, a kind of blind obedience, a system of authority - based on and supported by continually referencing the 'bible'. There is also huuuge lack of appropriate training ie. the pastor is not trained and often is not aware of their own sexuality issues . (or perhaps they are and take advantage of others) Alternatively...some theological training does not mean the individuals are aware of broader social issues etc. Usually its more of the case that people think they have more right to claim they know the mind of 'god' than the layperson.
The idea that the 'word' is more important than the 'child or human welfare' is very evident. Its a 'status' symbol.
Bible based beliefs like ..hell and condemnation, sexism and what is considered the 'proper' order within the family or the religious organisation largely determines how victims see themselves within the system. The idea of 'born in sin' (which is not present in the school system but instead has more humanistic attitude) can result in the person/victim NOT believing in themselves or that they have any 'right' to complain but rather blames themselves.
Unlike the public school system or well run private schools where there is at least a structure of complaint in place - ie. you can go to the headmaster, the 'board' /council, the politician etc. and students are not 'taught' to obey blindly. Parents are made aware of their rights within education system and teachers are not put on a pedestal of higher authority or as in some religious organisations..as representatives of 'god' or 'jesus' ..or a 'Shepard'. Its also common to pay lip service to the idea that 'preachers' are only human (sinners) - that kind of 'humility' is not often translated to how things work - or who has the money/profits or the ultimate 'authority' to interpret 'gods' word etc.
Sex education - which I believe is useful as a preventative measure is largely ignored or very much skewed to the particular religious dogma. Sex as being a place of 'sin' is not helpful and the idea that children or young people should act against their 'nature' (as sexual beings) is used to enforce guilt and strange ideas about sexual relationships. Homosexuality?
There is no doubt that sexual abuse within religious organisations is rampant. Thank goodness some religious people are starting to acknowledge that.
There is no such thing as a 'safe' church but that's not how the 'sales' story goes is it - christians are unlikely to put up a sign out in their foyer..."our paster was recently convicted of incest /sexual abuse of his own 2 teenage daughters but..."
(Message edited by snakechic On 29/04/2008 18:25:28)
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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