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Lahad
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1#
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Rank:Member IV
Score:1530
Posts:69
Registered:05/04/2003
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(Date Posted:04/07/2007 17:54:02)
Reply to : dogmafree
A copy of Ian's statement to Moth in the 'bereaved' thread...........[If it comes down to following 'blindly', as you put it, then the Jesus of Scripture is apparently no more real to you than are the characters in Grimm's fairytales. What does that suggest about 'relationship'? ]OK, this comment has me thinking and asking more 'hairy' questions..........I (like moth and many others) have found that despite spending many years in a life dedicated to a christian 'walk' (going to church frequently, reading the bible, immersing myself in a christian social environment, eschewing worldly stuff, being as good as I can, praying and evangelizing etc) that a living Jesus has failed to become manifestly evident in my life.Whilst I have been greatly inspired by Jesus at times, and had a number of lovely warm, glowy feelings when in prayer etc, I
Well repentance is the adjustment control that brings the telescope into focus. The relationship with Jesus is mega tangible and very very available. Yep I have now on a number of occasions heard the audible voice of God, been absolutely overwhelmed by his AWESOME love. Been to Heaven by an out of body experience. Had angels speak to me but hey I could go on and on but you have to ask yourself a very serious question: "How much do I want to know Jesus?" Look repentance takes you through the outer courts into the Holiest of All and repentance will bring an immediate response from the one called along side to help: The Person of the Holy Spirit. Don't follow a Revival Fellowship formula, get into your secret place and simply repent and have a meeting with the Holy Spirit.
John 14:21: " They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me, and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.
reveal - εμφανισω - make apparent - capable of being seen, visible (from Bauers Lexicon) and where this used in John 14:22 " to lay open to view, make visible.
Lahad
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dogmafree
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2#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
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(Date Posted:04/07/2007 19:22:45)
Hi Lahad, thanks for sharing that.
Actually, your description of being 'overwhelmed by the love of god' reminds me of two specific occasions where I had experiences that are perhaps similar.
The first was within about a week of my conversion to christianity in 1983. I was sitting reading the bible alone at home and I had a spontaneous, powerful experience of being flooded with an amazing feeling of love. I firmly attributed this as being a kind of affirmation from god of him having chosen me, and him showing me his love. Around that time also, I had a kind of lucid dream where a couple of phrases of specific words came to me. I was waking from a sleep and it was almost as though the words woke me. I wouldn't say they were an audible voice, but seemed like an entity within me giving me a message of affirmation. They were so vivid, that I got up and wrote the words down.
With both of these experiences, I can see now that I interpreted them as experiences validating my new 'relationship' with god.
Yet, if you watch the Youtube video near the bottom of this thread.... http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=443300&CategoryID=148064&startcat=1&ThreadID=2835423
the one about the neuro-scientist with the 'god helmet', you can perhaps see that such experiences are not unique to those in a god relationship. Instead, the mind can be induced to experience all sorts of highly lucid scenes that are very real to those that have them. It doesn't necessarily prove that those experiences are indicative of some ultimate truth.
In fact, soon after I left the RF in 2000, I had another experience of vastly greater impact, that eclipsed anything that I had ever known before or since. I had what is known as a Kundalini awakening that lasted several minutes. It was like an overwhelming intense orgasm of my whole being, and had me electrified and bathing in a state of loving compassion. Words hardly come close to conveying the power of this experience. At that time, I had never heard of the kundalini, and had no idea what was happening. I have since googled and found a lot of info about variations of this experience. And then, the more we look into virtually any culture, there are stories and reports of some kind of similar experiences and all sorts of means to induce them.
So, my conclusion might be that as powerful and real as your experiences were Lahad, they are not unique to a Christ relationship, and no more tangible than many other genuine experiences that might be considered by some as pagan or even occultic.
NOTE: I should acknowledge that this thread is perhaps just my take on the same theme that Bindi started in her 'alien abduction' thread. The mind is a fertile ground and all sorts of transcendant states may arise there. The danger can be when we subscribe to some rigid dogma, and interprete our personal experiences like this as absolute confirmation of some sovereign truth.
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Lahad
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3#
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Rank:Member IV
Score:1530
Posts:69
Registered:05/04/2003
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 04:10:47)
Let me explain it like this. The most profound time I heard the audible voice of God. I was alone in my loungeroom and without any expectation, the Holy Spirit came upon my person in power. I was immediately taken from my body and I went immediately to Heaven. What I saw there was beyond capability of being described but most importantly Jesus spoke to me. He actually shouted at me in a very loud voice and He said " I am coming back" The shout was so loud that it was almost deafening and if every electronic power amplifier on earth was turned right up full blast loud, it wouldn't match the decibels of God when He shouts.... So this revelation has shown me three things 1) Jesus is real 2) Jesus is coming back and 3) there is an existance that completely transcends this mortal existance that we live in now. And this existance that transcends the mortal is eternal. Now a revelation of this sort of magnitude does not in any way make me any more spiritual than what Sott has shared with you above and in fact I would rather envy Sotts position because as I write this to you in trembling, I am in the realization that one day Jesus will hold me personally accountable for the message He imparted to me. Have I been faithful to that message ??
Lahad
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RF_on_the_edge
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4#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3180
Posts:156
Registered:12/03/2007
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 06:57:52)
Reply to : SOTT1
I'll bite. I'm curious about your response to Lahad's claimed experiences.
Here's why I'm skeptical of your claims. First, you claim to have heard the audible voice of God, not just once, mind you, no, but several times. That puts you in the same category as the apostle Paul. Next, you claim to have been transported to heaven, where you 'saw' many wondrous things. That also puts you in the same category as the apostle Paul. And to top matters further, you claim to have been directly ministered to by angels, physically. Guess what? 'Yep', we see you alongside the apostle Paul again. You've claimed the trifecta, so why not go for the whole shebang? Have you raised the dead, too?
Would it be accurate to rephrase this as: you're skeptical because Lahad's claimed experiences would put him on a par with Paul who was himself on a par with the Twelve? (And the Twelve plus Paul had a unique role in establishing the Christian covenant?)
Sorry, bro', but as much as I like you, I simply don't believe you.
Why don't you believe him? (I'm happy to believe him.) Reading between the lines, I'm presuming that you have a biblical basis for believing that such experiences are not for today, or else very, very , very rare. Is that the reason? Is there something else? If there's biblical reasoning for the disbelief, please point me to the reasoning.
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MothandRust
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5#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 07:14:29)
Reply to : Lahad
Let me explain it like this. The most profound time I heard the audible voice of God. I was alone in my loungeroom and without any expectation, the Holy Spirit came upon my person in power. I was immediately taken from my body and I went immediately to Heaven. What I saw there was beyond capability of being described but most importantly Jesus spoke to me. He actually shouted at me in a very loud voiceand He said " I am coming back" The shout was so loud that it was almost deafening and if every electronic power amplifier on earth was turned right upfull blast loud, it wouldn't match the decibels of God when He shouts.... So this revelation has shown me three things 1) Jesus is real 2) Jesus is coming back and 3) there is an existance that completely transcends this mortal existance that we live in now. And this existance that transcends the mortal is
So this is the mega tangible experience? Makes the speaking in tongues 'evidence' sound pretty pathetic. I think it only fair that all christians get the grand tour of heaven when they enter into the club. No respector of persons? pfft... sounds like special treatment to me and I'm seriously thinking of sending a letter of complain off to management.
It's 'Jack and the Beanstalk' stories like this that make so many Christian testimonies come across as fairytales. I'm actually quite sorry to offend you with what must seem like gross ignorance on my part, but I have to stand up for rationalists everywhere and say 'bullsit' mate. Absolute bullshit. My sister tells pretty much the same story word for word and I've heard it from many a christian who are either seeking attention or are experiencing some sort of mental delusion akin to people who are swept up by aliens into a mothership for poking and prodding. My sister was able to put some of the 'experience' into words. She said she saw mostly built white mansions and streets of glowing gold.
I'm wondering why we need mansions for the spiritual bodies? Will there be ensuites for spiritual toiletry, and will the gold streets be a bit slippery? And why gold? That much gold will make it less valued and just not as practical as bitumen.
Now no doubt you're going to get your back up and you may even suggest as you have recently that 'I' seek professional mental help, but it's not me that is getting visions via supermen with wings. I do find it quite fascinating, but I think you would do mankind a big favour by humbly admitting that your sense of reality has been warped by conscious lucid dreaming or some lie that you want to believe so much that you're willing to stand by it whole-heartedly.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Lahad
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6#
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Rank:Member IV
Score:1530
Posts:69
Registered:05/04/2003
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 07:35:59)
Reply to : RF_on_the_edge
Reply to : SOTT1I'll bite.I'm curious about your response to Lahad's claimed experiences.Here's why I'm skeptical of your claims. First, youclaimto have heard the audible voice of God, not justonce, mind you, no, but several times. That puts you in the same category as the apostle Paul. Next, youclaimto have been transported to heaven, where you 'saw' many wondrous things. That also puts you in the same category as the apostle Paul. And to top matters further, youclaimto have been directly ministered to by angels, physically. Guess what? 'Yep', we see you alongside the apostle Paul again. You'veclaimedthe trifecta, so why not go for the whole shebang? Have you raised the dead, too?Would it be accurateto rephrase this as: you're skeptical because Lahad's claimed experiences
I havn't raised the dead but I know of someone who is a former member of RCI who has... There was a very recent report of a dead girl being raised from the dead by one of the workers in Rolland and Heidi Bakers Ministry " Iris Ministries" in Mozambique.. But the Person who really raises the Dead is the Holy Spirit and Paul never took credit from God for the working of God that God did through him..
.... and Who made the speech " Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing the work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And (και I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
but in the Greek text, it shows "ho pisteuon" - the one believing and that could also include Sott.
But at the same time giftedness is no mark or attainment of spirituality - no not at all
Lahad
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RF_on_the_edge
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7#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3180
Posts:156
Registered:12/03/2007
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 11:11:48)
Lahad
SOTT
Thanks for your explanations.
Dog
It seems to me that the experiences people have of 'relationship with Jesus' can always be regarded by others as coincidence, synchronicity, misinterpretation of natural phenomena or even just the ravings of a madman - depending on what the evaluator's core beliefs or assumptions are, and how well s/he reasons about such things. Coming off a heroin addiction cold turkey without withdrawal symptoms would be regarded as miraculous by many, and just a manifestation of the wonders of the mind-body by others. My experiences could certainly be regarded as nothing special by an outsider.
If your concern about "missing out" is primarily about some cool or dramatic experience ... well there's heaps around and I suspect most of the time Christianity (for a non-believer going through the motions) would be pretty lame compared to say, an LSD trip, an OBE or peak experiences of hatha yoga.
If, however, your concern about "missing out" is about missing an intimate relationship with the Creator of the universe in the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the bible ... I suspect the first step for you is to consider whether you are prepared to humble yourself and admit that there could be such a Creator who would have ownership rights over you and a "wisdom" that far exceeds yours. To paraphrase SOTT are you prepared to admit that you may not be God? (It goes against the grain! I know I don't always live in accordance with that truth, and I most certainly assent to it intellectually.) If you are prepared to admit that possibility, I think you would be wise to take the next step suggested elsewhere and ask "this Creator who may exist" for faith to know Him.
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dogmafree
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8#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
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(Date Posted:05/07/2007 17:01:19)
Reply to Ian's quote here
[There's something else that you need to consider in all this. The credibility of the witnesses. For example, do I qualify as a credible witness, Dog? From what you know of me, am I prone to emotional 'flights of fancy'? Do I strike you as being 'unhinged' or illogical in the way I approach matters? If not, then to what would you ascribe my faith?]
You know, Ian, that may well lie at the crux of my enquiry here........
I do find so much of your dialogue indicative of an acutely logical and intellectually advanced mind. It is excruciatingly difficult therefor, to fathom how you can accept and believe such fantastic stories as those in the bible, and fail to see them as just as incredible as all the other fantastic stories that you cast your doubts upon! It is an amazing contradiction that has me flabbergasted!
I read this night that you believe without question in a talking donkey, yet don't believe in Lahad's audible jesus, whilst maintaining that your non-audible jesus is much more tangible and real. More real than me! Absolutely amazing! And you talk of your unfailing belief in a moral and just god that will judge us, whilst the biblical accounts clearly describe an unjust and inconsistent one.
To what do I ascribe your faith? 
I'll add that one to all the other incredible conundrums of life for now!
For an otherwise rational, wise, logical and intelligent person to believe in talking donkeys, people walking on water, raising from the dead, being swallowed and spewed up by big fish, others walking dry-shod through the sea, along with thousands of other miracles, is bamboozling!
Yet it is a logical question to ask. Did you look at the video link I posted about the god-helmet thing? In it, the same concerns were raised... Were the people who reported of alien abductions, visits to heaven and OBE's sane, normal folk? Did they have some strange agenda when reporting their fantastic stories? Were they dinkum? It would seem that many, many folk have very strong convictions of the realities of their experiences, yet they could be shown to have been the product of a powerfully lucid mind. Your own claims, Ian, have no more validity than theirs!
I might be inclined to think that the earnest way that you have applied yourself to your theological studies have reinforced your beliefs so that you are yourself intoxicated with your belief system to such a degree that you elevate it above every other as sovereign. From the lofty heights of your perceived position, you only see everything and anything else as beneath you and it. I guess that to come down from these heady heights, and concede any weakness in credibility of your professions would be a most bitter pill to swallow, so you only ever bolster your position with these delusions!
I'm not quite sure what this mental condition is called, but I hope you find help for it!
Your other comment/question [how is Jesus not evident in every facet of my life? ]
Well for starters, he didn't treat everybody he met like total shit!
And Lahad, he didn't SHOUT at us either.
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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dogmafree
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9#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
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(Date Posted:06/07/2007 09:04:57)
DOG'S SUMMARY SO FAR
Firstly, an apology of sorts..........
In my original post, I made this comment [I'd really like to know, because I really feel like I'm missing out here!]
Having just gone back over this thread, I was struck by my own insincerity in (at least) this comment. The thing is, (as Ian rightly pointed out) I clearly have a fundamental problem with accepting Christianity, having seen and experienced far too much stuff that has 'put me off'. So, short of a very tangible demonstration of the bible god, I'm not likely to want to enter into a relationship with a god with whom I have such disdain, unless I'm convincingly shown that the proposition is palatable. You could say it's a case of 'once bitten, twice shy'!
Ian cleverly hit the nail's head when he focussed on my conundrum of reconciling how impressed I am with his logic, yet amazed at his adherance to christian dogma. But that's life I guess!
Ultimately, it seems that nothing has been presented (so far) that was as tangible as what I feel it takes to make Jesus more believable than other fantasy creatures.
Thanks for all your input though. It has been very interesting! I do believe that your sharing of your experiences are true and genuine to you. I just see equally that millions of people have all sorts of alternative, equally convincing experiences and 'altered states' of consciousness. I fail to see any real evidence that makes 'Jesus' experiences pre-eminent over all the others.
But feel free to present info to convince me otherwise!
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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For Zions Sake
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10#
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Rank:Newbie
Score:520
Posts:23
Registered:17/12/2006
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(Date Posted:06/07/2007 10:44:15)
Reply to : dogmafree
Firstly, an apology of sorts..........
In my original post, I made this comment [I'd really like to know, because I really feel like I'm missing out here!]
Having just gone back over this thread, I was struck by my own insincerity in (at least) this comment.
Hi Dog...I don't post too much on the forum, it takes too long for me...but I've read it everyday for 2 years, so I feel like I know the regular contributors somewhat.
The other day, I prepared a reply to your original questions...I had it all ready to post, but at the last minute I deleted it, because I felt you weren't sincere. It wasn't a case of casting my pearls before swine but rather that your post was intended to sound sincere in order to draw out the stories.
I know you've heard it all before...anyway, FWIW, my relationship with my spiritual Father is spiritual and I don't try to work it out too much in the natural other than comparing it to my relationship with my natural father. I love and respect my father unconditionally...and he's not perfect. As a child, I had very little understanding about life and the workings of it...I didn't need to. For me, the strange things that happened in the bible remain strange. I wasn't a part of that lifetime, which I'm sure was very different from the lifetime I experience today. I won't go into detail, but the real experiences I have had in my 20 year relationship with my spiritual Father is evidence enough for me. I don't 'hear' God or Jesus talk to me...I 'feel' them. My thoughts and feelings change and they literally become God's thoughts and feelings. My confidence, understanding and perception are enhanced....and I know it's God because I possess very little of those traits myself.
You could say it's a case of 'once bitten, twice shy'!
I've been bitten by a dog before and for a while I found a new street to walk down in order to avoid the beast...but that was taking me out of my way...had to start walking past the beast again...it was hard, but now I'm alert.
Gotta get back to reading the forum...
greetings from Zion
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For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest.... Isa 62:1
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dogmafree
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11#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
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(Date Posted:06/07/2007 11:59:45)
Thank you Zion,
I appreciate you taking the time. Great post!
So, if I alluded to an apology before, let me say here, I'm "sorry" for my way of framing the questions in my original post. Whilst it is mostly plain what my intentions and questions were about, I can see now that I was a little false in inferring that I perhaps was espousing the idea of a personal 'relationship'. Maybe (in a way) I might, but I clearly have a predisposition to not seek this unless my reasons not to are countered with stronger reasons to do so.
Dog.
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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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RF_on_the_edge
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12#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3180
Posts:156
Registered:12/03/2007
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(Date Posted:08/07/2007 01:49:25)
Yo Dog,
In a previous post I said "It seems to me that the experiences people have of 'relationship with Jesus' can always be regarded by others as coincidence, synchronicity, misinterpretation of natural phenomena or even just the ravings of a madman - depending on what the evaluator's core beliefs or assumptions are, and how well s/he reasons about such things. "
SOTT said, "Or, your frame-of-reference for judging reality is decidedly skewed in favour of Enlightenment propositionalism, which is, itself, untested."
You say "... I clearly have a predisposition to not seek [a personal 'relationship' with God?] unless my reasons not to are countered with stronger reasons to do so."
Have you considered those points by SOTT and myself? If you haven't and don't, you're likely to miss any "stronger reasons" that present (or have presented) themselves.
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MothandRust
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13#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:08/07/2007 11:42:52)
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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