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MothandRust
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1#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:07/08/2007 15:31:06)
Reply to : anon1
Finally started reading it .... bought sometime ago Richard Dawkin's book " The God Delusion".If you want to read a lucid argument for the non-existance of God, this is likely it. No hocus-pocus.Well written - should be a compulsory read for all people of a religous bent - irrespective of the taste in Gods.Anyone else read it ? anon1
I love reading the work of atheists. They aren't scared to explore the big questions. They aren't scared of crossing the line to reason out topics that might be taboo, or blashemy, or will get them sent to a completely mythical eternal torture chamber. I think they're less likely to get zealously protective of their beliefs so as to convolute bizarre grasps of reasoning to 'make everything fit.'
This is an interesting read from Sam Harris, and a great debate between him and evangelist Rick Warren on God and things of 'faith':
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-_b_8459.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17889148/site/newsweek/
Christopher Hitchens on the Essential Stupidity of Religion
and of course Socrates makes a good debate too... http://www.unm.edu/~humanism/socvsjes.htm
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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bridges burnt
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2#
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Rank:Rookier
Score:1590
Posts:69
Registered:26/09/2006
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(Date Posted:10/08/2007 09:23:47)
Hey Anon 1 and MothandRust,
Nice to see you contributing to the same topic, one that's close to my heart since I left the CAI. In fact, on a personal note, you two have been my sanity check and the only ones (plus a few other contributors) I could really relate to since I left the CAI in September, so THANKS for (unwittingly) saving my sanity. Ok, gushes over...
I bought the God Delusion as soon as I discovered it, and it helped me put some of my thoughts into some reasonable, logical order. Been walking a lonely old road as most ex-CAIers I know are clinging to the god delusion for all they're worth and arent prepared to ask the big questions. I love them all dearly, but.....
Have accessed all of the links, videos etc which you have put on Mothman, and read the debates with glee.
Ok, thats my imput for now. Still trying to work it all but enjoying the challenge.
bb
P.s anon 1, Apparently we knew each other in a former life..a mutual friend told me so..intriguing.
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"Once you"ve crossed over there"s no turning back, once that burning bridge is gone"
Alison Krauss
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MothandRust
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3#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:10/08/2007 15:25:10)
Reply to : bridges burnt
Hey Anon 1 and MothandRust,Nice to see you contributing to the same topic, one that's close to my heart since I left the CAI. In fact, on a personal note,you two have been my sanity checkand the only ones (plus a few other contributors)I could really relate to since I left the CAI in September, so THANKS for (unwittingly) saving my sanity.
I had part in helping you save your sanity? Wow, many would find that a remarkable statement seeing as I'm insane myself.. lol.
Man, I truly love a good atheist/deist debate, unless they involve dimwits like Kirk Cameron and Ray comfort... sheeesh... god obviously designed bananas to fit our hands. sigh.
Glad to have been there with stuff that helped along the way. Have you checked out some of the links on my blog?
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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bridges burnt
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4#
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Rank:Rookier
Score:1590
Posts:69
Registered:26/09/2006
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(Date Posted:11/08/2007 03:15:49)
Yup, have checked out all of them!! Has opened up a whole new world for me.
When I left the CAI madhouse (and from reading the CAI threads you'll know how nutso most of the CAIers were/are), I immediately started to ask the big questions/the nature of god/the inconsistencies in the Bible, which had plagued me for nearly 20 years as a not-very-good Christian. I assumed everyone else would do the same, but I found myself "out there", also considered a bit insane, maybe that's why I relate!
Dont know how many times I heard the comment "dont throw the baby out with the bathwater" to which I replied "Ive thrown out the baby, bathwater, soap and all the rubber duckies".
That about sums me up, but happy to be free to think logically and not have to "bring my mind down" (favourite CAI dumb down scripture)
Id love to have a good debate with some ex-CAIers, but doubt many of them are reading this particular thread! lol
bb
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"Once you"ve crossed over there"s no turning back, once that burning bridge is gone"
Alison Krauss
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MothandRust
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5#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:11/08/2007 03:43:12)
Reply to : bridges burnt
Dont know how many times I heard the comment "dont throw the baby out with the bathwater" to which I replied "Ive thrown out the baby, bathwater, soap and all the rubber duckies".That about sums me up, but happy to be free to think logically and not have to "bring my mind down" (favourite CAI dumb down scripture)Idlove
Was there even a baby in the water in the first place... or just a plastic doll we couldn't bare to part with?
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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bridges burnt
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6#
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Rank:Rookier
Score:1590
Posts:69
Registered:26/09/2006
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(Date Posted:12/08/2007 14:08:36)
Who knows? All I know is the plug is gone and the tubs empty, but I'm not cold or scared. Hey, that sounds good, maybe I should write a song....
Well, here's a line I like from The God Delusion "People say we need religion when what they really mean is we need police".
Relates to a story where the police went on strike in Canada in the 60's and law and order broke down pretty quickly. Now, that shows we need police. But do we need religion to maintain law and order or simply morality? I used to say that...when I was in the CAI, about laws being set by God, etc, but now....??????
bb
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"Once you"ve crossed over there"s no turning back, once that burning bridge is gone"
Alison Krauss
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Didaktikon
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7#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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(Date Posted:29/08/2007 04:24:54)
Reply to : anon1
Anon1,
'Yep', I've read it  I've also read the rejoinder by McGrath, "The Dawkins Delusion". The former was written by a PhD in Science as an apologetic for atheism. The latter was written by a PhD in Science (but one with a doctorate in theology as well) as a critique of the philosophical confusion that underpins the former 
Now here's what I suggest. If you're truly open-minded on the subject, then read both books and then 'Google' for, and then read, the published reviews of both. A fruitful and fulfilling exercise 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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anon1
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8#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3360
Posts:126
Registered:20/09/2006
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(Date Posted:30/08/2007 18:53:56)
Hi Didaktikon
thanks for the contribution... and a very valid one at that.
I am aware of the 'rejoinder' and will read it once I've completed Dawkin's work.
and yourself, what did you conclude from reading the 2 books ?
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It"s never too late to leave. Even if yon"ve been in the Assembly a long time.
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anon1
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9#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3360
Posts:126
Registered:20/09/2006
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(Date Posted:30/08/2007 19:01:58)
Hi BB
- great to have been of a little help... I do find the CAI forum a lttie too pro-christian.... it would appear many of our former acquaintences are still hanging onto the whole christian thing...... funny how they were so anti-every-other-church when in the CAI.
Personally I think upon leaving such an organisation, a person should truly re-evaluate totally their beliefs - start completely again.. especially the CAI, it is very likely the person was coerced/forced/threated/emotionally targeted to start fearing sin/burning in Hell/getting run down by a bus etc... Certainly I had been.
It 's hard after leaving - I truly felt in the wilderness, it'd have been great to have had the forum when I had left. It's an exciting time leaving and exploring life again.
take care (send me an email/message sometime if you wish).
regds
Anon1
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It"s never too late to leave. Even if yon"ve been in the Assembly a long time.
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Didaktikon
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10#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 04:19:10)
Reply to : anon1
Good morning, 'anon'.
thanks for the contribution... and a very valid one at that.
You're welcome.
I am aware of the 'rejoinder' and will read it once I've completed Dawkin's work.
Fair enough.
and yourself, what did you conclude from reading the 2 books ?
Several things. First, that Dawkins is, before anything else, an atheist. His book isn't a manifesto on science or the scientific method, far from it. What it is is an apologetic for his a-religious beliefs. Second, whatever else Dawkins might be, he certainly isn't a philosopher, hence his book is remarkably naive when it comes to addressing philosophical questions. There is also the fact that neither is Dawkins a reliable guide (or even a well informed one) when it comes to the content and context of Christian teaching. Consequently, the 'God Delusion' is replete with misunderstanding of Christian positions on a range of issues, which are then set up as "straw-men" to be knocked over with obvious glee and relish. In short, he didn't even ask the 'right' questions to begin with!
Dr McGrath's rejoinder is of a different sort to Dawkins' work. For starters, it isn't intended as a Christian apologetic, or even as a Christian defence against Dawkins' claims. What it is, however, is a trenchant critique of Dawkins' naivety. What McGrath does extremely well, is to demonstrate the philosophical, theological and metaphysical errors that underpin every page of the 'God Delusion'. And interestingly enough, the published non-Christian reviews of McGrath's work generally demonstrate a far more intelligent reading of the underlying issues than some might otherwise assume.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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anon1
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11#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3360
Posts:126
Registered:20/09/2006
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 19:48:16)
mmm - interesting .... certainly got me thinking about both Dawkins and McGrath.
I clearly understand Dawkin has a very well defined agenda... this is part of the attraction about reading him. I will read McGrath but it'll be later this year/next year.... have a pile of books I 've intended to read - slowly getting through them !!
Take care.
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It"s never too late to leave. Even if yon"ve been in the Assembly a long time.
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woodfortrees
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12#
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Rank:Newbie
Score:520
Posts:26
Registered:29/09/2007
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 16:21:48)
Reply to : anon1
A little late I am but nevertheless this topic interested me. Richard Dawkins...brilliant. Im interested in other books along the same line, any ideas? You people seem to be informed more than others. I just clicked on to this website below, it had some interesting info. Why is it so hard for people to say that they are atheist. I used to think agnostic was a safe place to be and then I questioned myself, what was I fearing? If life is the gift I was given (however) why should I cheat myself out of enjoying it by being in constant fear that it's not all that there is. Being atheist doesn't mean you have any less respect for people, or wonderment for life, in fact I think you value it more. Things just happen to people, saved or unsaved, believer or non-believer. Why should I set myself above a person without or with a certain belief system.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/06/atheistic-ethic_13.html
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MothandRust
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13#
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Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 17:10:15)
Reply to : woodfortrees
Richard Dawkins...brilliant. Im interested in other books along the same line, any ideas? You people seem to be informed more than others.
Anything by Sam Harris is similar-ish... his books are selling well in the states and he makes some sharp criticism towards general religious beliefs.
The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason
Letter to a Christian Nation
Sam recently addressed an "atheist conference" concerning the labelling of "Atheist". It caused quite a stir. His point was that there is no real need for the labelling as someone who doesn't believe in something in particular. There are no specific or labelled groups of people who don't believe in fairies... or UFOs or what have you. Atheism is the position that either affirms the non-existance of god or the rejection of theism.
Sam recently commented on his recent point (Warning to Ian, spend your two minutes reading something else, this is sure to be a waste of your optical nerve and cerebral processing systems - lol):
My point, with respect to the term "atheist" (or any other), is that the use of a label invites a variety of misunderstandings that are harmful to our cause. There are many people in this country who do not believe in God and who understand that there is conflict between science and religion, but who do not feel the slightest inclination to join an atheist group or to label themselves in opposition to religion. These people are "atheists" by any measure, but you will never meet them at one of our conventions. They have read the writings of the "new atheists," sent us letters and emails of support, are quite fond of criticizing religion whenever the opportunity arises, but they have no interest whatsoever in joining a cult of such critics. And there is something cult-like about the culture of atheism. In fact, much of the criticism I have received of my speech is so utterly lacking in content that I can only interpret it as a product of offended atheist piety.
And on a lighter note... you could read Christopher Hitchen's latest best seller, "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".
It's a fun read, especially after a few vodkas.
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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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woodfortrees
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14#
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Rank:Newbie
Score:520
Posts:26
Registered:29/09/2007
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(Date Posted:18/10/2007 11:37:23)
Reply to : MothandRust
.Anything by Sam Harris is similar-ish... his books are selling well in the states and he makes some sharp criticism towards general religious beliefs.The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of ReasonLetter to a Christian NationSam recently addressed an "atheist conference" concerning the labelling of "Atheist". It caused quite a stir. His point was
Thanks you are a wealth of information. Yes, these comments seem quite logical. The whole thinking is logical.
Hmm, so many books to read, only one lifetime.
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