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misterkilometres
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Rank:Rookier IV

Score: 2380
Registered: 12/06/2008

(Date Posted:29/06/2008 00:40:37)

Hello All,


I have been looking into the functions and aspects of the Spirit of a man, the soul of a man and the body.


It has been a subject that after 14 years in RCI I have found that I do not have a complete appreciation over.


So I have trawled internet articles on this subject and most of the articles on this seem to divide the triune nature of men as follows:


Spirit:


The functions of conscience, intuition and communion with God.


Soul: Functions like emotion, volition, rational thinking, thought, imagination, skills etc..


Body: Well this our vehicle and house.


Most of the articles also implied that when we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit, this revives our spirit, and as we begin to allow the new revived spirit/Spirit to control the functions of our souls, then our souls also become restored, and this sanctifies our souls and bodies to the Lord.  The articles also say that God is triune in nature, ie: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and then as we are created in his image, so we too are triune created beings, spirit, soul and body.


Other parts of a man are also the heart of man, that seems to have the functions of the soul as well as the conscience. 


The impact this has had on me is that if i can correctly divide between spirit soul and body, then I can understand and apply scripture in a more active way, rather than head knowledge alone.  This also has impacted me in the form of realizing more about spiritual warfare. 


I am still trying to get my head around this whole subject, but have found it to be really worthwhile.


Have any of you readers also looked into this? 


Please reply with your pearls of wisdom, your thoughts and opinions, as I would hope that in the multitude of counsellors therein is wisom.


God bless you all,


Paul Miles aka misterkilometres.

--------------------------------------------------------------
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT - NOT BY THEIR GIFTS.

Didaktikon
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1#



Rank:Posterior Maximus I

Score:17390
Registered: 29/08/2007

RE:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?
(Date Posted:29/06/2008 01:24:24)

Hi, Paul.

The potision that you apparently espouse, above, is known (theologically) as the Trichotomist view. You may be interested to discover that it owes more to Neo-Platonic Greek philosophy than it does to strictly Christian teaching. I would suggest that you do some study into the Dichotomist view, the historical Christian position, which views humanity as an essential unity albeit one composed of both body and soul/spirit.

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

misterkilometres
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2#



Rank:Rookier IV

Score:2380
Registered: 12/06/2008

RE:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?
(Date Posted:29/06/2008 07:04:12)

Thanks Ian,

I have just had a great talk with our assistant minister tonight and he also has suggested that I do not hold to the trichotomist view but directed me to Romans 6 and advised to keep it to flesh and spirit.  Also confirmed from a senior vestry member and my home group leader that dichotomist view is the better way to view this subject.  I will do some further investigation on this over the next week.

Does anyone else have anything to add?

--------------------------------------------------------------
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT - NOT BY THEIR GIFTS.

Didaktikon
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3#



Rank:Posterior Maximus I

Score:17390
Registered: 29/08/2007

RE:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?
(Date Posted:30/06/2008 01:36:06)

Hi, Paul.

I'm not really sure what you're expecting other people to be able to add to this discussion. Uninformed and subjective personal opinions? You see, the subject that you've raised directly relates to the theological subset of anthropology--the study of humanity from the perspective of God. Speaking personally, I'm not convinced that there are very many people "out-there" in Ex-Revivalist Aimoo land who've studied the matter in sufficient detail to be able to offer an informed opinion, one way or the other, in the first place. Theology, after all, has never been the strength (or consuming interest) of Revivalists.

Did you know that the trichotomist position on the nature of humanity is the one that is favoured by Pentecostals, and  by heretical Christian abberations more generally? And do you understand why this is the case?

My advice to you is this: it would be preferable for you to ask theological/doctrinal questions of your Anglican clergy, in preference to former Revivalists. The former are far better equipped to provide you with the correct answers than are the latter (a very few excluded), which are, of course, the answers that you need.

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

misterkilometres
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4#



Rank:Rookier IV

Score:2380
Registered: 12/06/2008

RE:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?
(Date Posted:01/07/2008 23:48:26)

 Ian,

A quick look into that and bingo - I have to make a descision.

by Daniel M. Brown

1 Corinthians 14 is one of the most popular chapters in the Bible for Charismatics. Practically every Charismatic author that writes anything on the gifts of the Holy Spirit will refer to this chapter. Ironically, 1 Corinthians 14 is one of the strongest rebuttals against the modern Charismatic teaching on tongues, but Charismatics are completely oblivious to this fact because they read the chapter with a trichotomous mindset. In a nutshell, this argument against Charismatic tongues goes as follows:

  1. No Charismatic claims to understand the tongues-language that he speaks.
  2. 1 Corinthians 14 plainly teaches that the Biblical tongues-speaker understood the words uttered from his own lips.
  3. Therefore, the modern Charismatic phenomenon of tongues has nothing to do with Biblical tongues.

When a Charismatic reads 1 Cor 14:14, “my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful,” he reads this to mean that his spirit utters words which is own mind does not understand. Based on a trichotomy or tri-partite view of man, he claims that his spirit speaks a heavenly language that bypasses the mental understanding of his soul. However, a careful study of the scriptures concerning spirit and soul reveals that the Bible does not teach such a concept. This concept of trichotomy is rooted in Greek philosophy, not Biblical doctrine. Although common to Gnosticism and other mystery religions, the Bible knows no such Charismatic concept of edification apart from understanding. Indeed the Bible often uses spirit and soul interchangeably. Scriptures showing thought and cognitive understanding in one’s spirit are inescapable. See Matt 26:41, Mk 2:8, Lk 1:46-47, Acts 17:16, 1 Cor 2:11, 1 Pet 3:3-5.

Further, the Charismatic interprets the word “mysteries” in 1 Cor 14:2 to mean unintelligible utterances, or tongues, from his own lips. However, the Bible never uses the word “musterion” in such a manner. The entire New Testament defines “mystery” as the revelation of the gospel of Christ which was hidden is ages past but is now revealed to His saints. See Matt 13:10, Mk 4:11, Lk 8:10, Rom 11:25, Rom 16:25-27, 1 Cor 2:7, 1 Cor 15:51, Eph 3:2-6, Col 1:25-27. Jesus and Paul clearly use the word “mystery” in a completely different sense than the way Charismatics use it today. Mystery was revelational truth, hidden in the past, but now revealed and understood. Victor Budgen writes in his excellent book,1 “Far from being something hidden or concealed, a ‘mystery’ is a gloriously ‘open secret’ which we ourselves would never have discovered had not God revealed it.” Clearly, if one does not understand the mysteries of which Paul speaks, he cannot be called a Christian!

Dichotomy versus Trichotomy

Brian Onken astutely observes, in his excellent paper on the dangers of trichotomy,2 that the trichotomous mindset leads to a denigration of the intellect and of rigorous doctrinal study. In fact, one of most commonly heard complaints of ex-charismatics is that their Charismatic church had become so anti-intellectual and anti-doctrine that they could no longer in good conscience subject their children to such mindlessness. I personally had a Charismatic pastor up in Connecticut that would tell me, “Dan, your problem is that you worship the Father, Son, and Holy Scriptures! You need to spend less time reading and more time learning to operate in the Spirit.” Anti-intellectualism runs rampant in Charismaticism and is a direct result of trichotomy. Some of the strongest proponents of trichotomy, including Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray, are widely read by Charismatics. Trichotomist authors quite blatantly claim that “soul power,” meaning the power of the intellect, hinders true spirituality. And the only way to live a holy spiritual life is to crucify the flesh and the soul life. Such views are more akin to Gnosticism than they are to a Biblical, Calvinistic, optimistic, postmillennial world view. Reformed folk understand that sin has affected all parts of man, not just his flesh and mind, and that Christ’s resurrection life applies to the total man, not just his spirit. Louis Berkhof observes that, for most of history, the church held to a dichotomy view of man, particularly from Augustine on.3 The trichotomy view saw a revival in the nineteenth century and, not surprisingly, the Pentecostal/Charismatic revival fell right on the heels of it.

Trichotomy also has a strong effect in evangelical denominations who would not normally call themselves Charismatic, particularly the more liberal denominations who have little to no emphasis on the historic creeds and confessions. Southern Baptists come to mind here. Although not calling themselves Charismatic, there is no doubt a strong Charismatic influence in the SBC and many Southern Baptists look like Charismatics without the speaking in tongues. When trying to correct some doctrinal error with such folks, we’ve often heard statements like, “Well, I hear what you’re saying but I’ll just go home and pray and see what the Holy Spirit says to me about these scriptures.” In spite of an often outward display of humility when saying such things, trichotomy has given them an excuse to reject God-ordained church authority and the historic creeds of the church fathers. Trichotomy breeds a hyper-independence and individualistic mindset that is blind to the covenantal and corporate aspects of the Holy Spirit.

In contradistinction to trichotomy, it is Christ Himself, not the Trinitarian Godhead, that shows us what the ideal spiritual man looks like. Christ was the perfect sinless Israelite fulfilling all the requirements of the Law, the true Seed of Abraham through whom all nations are blessed, the eternal heir of David’s throne, who has a fully resurrected body that eats and drinks with His saints. It is this, “One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;”4 it is this Christ, who is both God and Man, who was raised from the dead to be seated on His throne at the right hand of God. And just as the Son submitted His entire dichotomous Being to the Father and His entire dichotomous Being was raised from the dead, so we submit our entire beings to Christ in the hope of our mortal bodies being resurrected at His second coming, 1 Cor 15:20-28, 1 Th 4:13-17. We avoid the error of the Apollinarians, yet we also avoid the error of the Nestorians by neither denying nor confusing Christ’s Divinity and His Humanity.5

Numerous reformed authors have dealt with the arguments for dichotomy and trichotomy (as well as monism). So, we’ll only briefly review the arguments here. Dichotomy, or the view that man is a unity of body and soul, or body and spirit, sees material and immaterial parts joined together in man. Spirit and soul are used interchangeably for the same immaterial element in man but from different points of view. A few scriptures supporting dichotomy include; Gen 2:7, Job 32:8, Job 33:4, Eccl 12:7, Is 10:18, and Matt 10:28. Sometimes the scriptures speak of a dichotomy of body and soul, as in Matt 6:25 and Matt 10:28, and other times of a dichotomy of body and spirit, as in Eccl 12:7, 1 Cor 5:3-5, 1 Cor 7:34. Death is referred to as giving up the soul, as in Gen 35:18, 1 Kg 17:21, Acts 15:26, and as giving up the spirit, as in Ps 31:5, Lk 23:46, Acts 7:59. The immaterial part that survives death is referred to as the soul, as in Rev 6:9, Rev 20:4 and as the spirit, as in Heb 12:23, 1 Pet 3:19. The soul communes with God in Jam 1:21 and Heb 6:19 and the spirit communes with God in Rom 8:16 and 1 Cor 6:20. 2 Cor 7:1 speaks of sin affecting flesh and spirit and Eph 2:3 speaks of sin affecting flesh and mind. The dichotomy present in the scriptures is obvious, but so is the interchangeable use of soul and spirit. John Calvin clearly demonstrates the dichotomous view when he writes:

Moreover, there can be no question that man consists of a body and a soul; meaning by soul, an immortal though created essence, which is his nobler part. Sometimes he is called a spirit. But though the two terms, while they are used together, differ in their meaning, still when spirit is used by itself it is equivalent to soul.6

Likewise, Charles Hodge defends the traditional dichotomy view in his second volume:

This doctrine of a threefold constitution of man being adopted by Plato, was introduced partially into the early Church, but soon came to be regarded as dangerous, if not heretical. Its being held by the Gnostics that the pneuma in man was a part of the divine essence, and incapable of sin; and by the Apollinarians that Christ had only a human soma and psuche, but not a human pneuma, the Church rejected the doctrine that the psuche and pneuma were distinct substances, since upon it those heresies were founded. In later times the Semi-Pelagians taught that the soul and body, but not the spirit in man were the subjects of original sin. All Protestants, Lutherans and Reformed, were, therefore, the more zealous in maintaining that the soul and spirit, psuche and pneuma, are one and the same substance and essence. And this, as before remarked, has been the common doctrine of the Church.7

The two primary scriptures used to support trichotomy (the view that man consists of three parts; spirit, soul, and body) are 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4:12. But the first cannot be used to support trichotomy any more than Mk 12:30 can be used to support tetrachotomy. The second passage does not say “dividing between” but “to division of.” It is talking of the power of God’s word to pierce to the deepest and remotest parts of man, both his immaterial and material parts. It speaks of “soul and spirit” in the same manner that it speaks of “thoughts and intents of the heart,” two views of the same thing. So neither of these passages provide clear support for trichotomy, and of course these must be interpreted in light of the rest of scripture which gives overwhelming evidence for dichotomy.



Pretty easy descision once you look into it further......


Thanks,


misterkilometres.


--------------------------------------------------------------
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT - NOT BY THEIR GIFTS.

brolga
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5#



Rank:Poster Grande III

Score:14470
Registered: 01/03/2007

RE:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?
(Date Posted:02/07/2008 00:40:38)


Q. If man's existence leans more to the dichotomy position, according to scriptural exegesis, where does Jesus fit in to all this?
Being firstly the son of God, then in the form of man, now a Spiritual being. Does this make Him now the Triune of God, and if so does man become Triune after his resurrection?

brolga.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Who said it could not be done? And tell me what great victories does he have to his credit which qualifies him to judge others accurately?

Didaktikon