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Aimoo Team
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:13/11/2008 04:55:52)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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earth5
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2#
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Rank:Poster Venti III
Score:11700
Posts:513
Registered:07/01/2007
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 03:13:29)
Reply to brolga (12/11/2008 22:09:59)
Ian,
Given the truth of what you are saying, it might be of interest to know that the Geelong RF group have now decided it would be best to dis-banded the Geelong RF and return to the RCI (Bellarine).
brolga |
Hey Brolga, that is most interesting news. mind you no real difference between them and its one way to make the "church " look bigger
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earth5
I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn"t, than live my life as if there isn"t, and find out there is"
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spitchips
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3#
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Rank:Rookier
Score:1700
Posts:82
Registered:24/10/2008
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 03:29:28)
Which Pastor Daryl is this? from Melbourne?
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spitchips
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4#
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Rank:Rookier
Score:1700
Posts:82
Registered:24/10/2008
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 03:30:05)
What has happened to the huge gulf created by the split and the moral issue?
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 05:17:07)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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Didaktikon
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6#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To spitchips
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 20:58:13)
Hi, Theresa.
What has happened to the huge gulf created by the split and the moral issue?
To be honest, I think the brouha about "morals" served more as a convenient excuse for the split, than it did the only (or even principle) reason for it 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Aimoo Team
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 22:39:52)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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Talmid
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8#
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Rank:Regular Member
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:14/11/2008 23:46:35)
re the 'morals policy' and the split
While I can't speak regarding the motivations (machinations?) of those at the top of the RF organisational pyramid, I can say that for the dozens of the former RCI'rs I know who left to become part of RF, that policy was indeed the principle reason for leaving. The foolish (and somewhat corrupt) grooming of SL for the top job was obvious even to me outside 'the inner circle' in Melbourne, but that was not sufficient reason to leave.
In retrospect, various actions of LRL's *did* encourage the split eg telling the pastors in at least one regional meeting convened to discuss the isssue, "You're all out. If you want back in, you'll have to ask." Nevertheless, LRL's belief in "once a fornicator, always a fornicator" went back, according to evidence I've heard from a number of people, many years prior to '95.
What a shame that when their RF option became unviable, the "must speak in tongues" elastic drew these people back, instead of them being drawn by teachings of the bible towards orthodoxy.
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Didaktikon
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9#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Talmid
(Date Posted:15/11/2008 16:23:45)
Good morning, Talmid.
I harbour no doubts whatsoever that the "morals" issue was the primary driver for the rank-and-file leaving the RCI in droves for the RF in 1995. After all, that was the only issue about which the average "pew-sitter" would have been aware (at the time)
What I suggested to Theresa; however, was that there were significantly graver issues at stake for certain members of the then RCI hierarchy. And I wouldn't be surprised if the "morals" nonsense simply served as a convenient foil around which to foment a little (self-serving) dissent. After all, there has always been intrigue enough within Revivalism to put to shame the best efforts of, say, the Roman Catholic Church. Motes and beams; motes and beams! 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Episkopeo
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10#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
Score:5700
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:15/11/2008 21:01:38)
Good morning Ian and Talmid,
Only the hierarchy knew exactly what occurred in the inner sanctum of RCI at that time. The morals policy was what the Kuhlman camp, as a united front, were presenting as the reason for the split. I do know that it was slipped months before that many pastors were aghast that son Simon was being groomed by dad for the top job in RCI. There could have been a number of reasons behind the morals issue. As pastors have pointed out "we take care of the problems and concerns so that you (the people) don't have to worry about them and can get on with your walk". So no-one has to worry their little heads about anything, which is how they like it, ignorance being bliss. With our group, we just all changed over to RF, few questions asked, as easy as that!
In the years before the split Lloyd had what could only be called a cult following. This, to my dismay I discovered quite early and don't know why I didn't leave there and then - it seemed so spiritually unhealthy. Perhaps I became conditioned to it also, but importantly there was the salvation message, which I later discovered to be flawed.
During the years in RCI very few talks didn't refer to Pastor Lloyd saying this or that or, as Pastor Lloyd always says............... The general RCI community caught on and the name seemed to be on the lips of everyone (the name of Pastor Lloyd that is.) More spoken of than the name of Jesus himself.
Lloyd's power and influence seemed to know no bounds. What happened would, I'm sure, have happened sooner or later and will probably happen again in the undemocratic Revival system. As the RCI/RF saying goes "God raises up pastors". What a lot of Revival hogwash. I'm sure in Lloyd's heyday God would never have had a hand in it, all would have been handpicked by Lloyd.
To all you RFers, intent on shaking off the RCI years, well here's something to think on; you're governed by a large percentage of Lloyd's hand picked boys.
Epi
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spitchips
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11#
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Rank:Rookier
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:15/11/2008 22:05:32)
Epi
Well put. It's all coming back to me, the 'big split'. We were so used to saying, only amongst our closest of friends, 'Praise the Lloyd' instead of 'Praise the Lord' - funny we thought it was. But it was a bit nearer the truth than we cared to admit.
In our RCI group there was about a 3/4 to 1/4 split : the classic 'T' intersection. I remember being angry that the powers that be could not get it together and agree on fundamental issues. We were urged to study the scriptures : the main pastor went RCI as did the majority. Those of us who decided RF and against the rigid moral issue, met in a hired room and the pastors there, some from Canberra, were very candid and from memory, quite shell-shocked. It really felt like a rebellion. It makes me angrier now to learn that there just may have been other matters pushing this along, matters material and selfish.
Funny how none of that matters now.
cheers
S. Chips
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outaegypt
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12#
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Rank:Poster Venti I
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:15/11/2008 23:56:44)
I was just remembering my very early days. I would hear people talk about Lloyd and I used to think why is a man placed on such a pedestal- he's just a man. On my first meeting of him he was at an out reach telling people they had no right to read the bible as it was effectively reading some one else's mail. I was pretty unimpressed and the Safari suit and white shoes he wore were an instant character warning that definitely unnerved me. But yet for all the gut feeling of things not sitting right, I was so wanting to find God in a real tangible experience that changed my life and broke addictions, I was willing to overlook what would have been my natural instincts warning me. I think I just thought well if they want to look at Lloyd that way thats their problem but I never will. But slowly your life blends to the Revival way and before you realize it you've become just like everyone else. You effectively stop thinking for yourself. I do feel now like I've awoken from a comatose state and taken back control.
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As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
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Didaktikon
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13#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To outaegypt
(Date Posted:16/11/2008 00:09:37)
Hiya OoE,
'Yep', and now the RCI world gets to enjoy the son. Half the genes and one twentieth the personal charisma
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Episkopeo
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14#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
Score:5700
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Registered:30/08/2007
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:16/11/2008 05:13:24)
Hi OutaE,
Yes, our capacity to evaluate was certainly dimmed and it's endemic in the rank and file of churches like it.
As for the Lloyd, as he was then, as head of RCI he was definitely an interesting, larger than life character and I've got to admit the man did have charisma.
Like you OutaE I first saw Lloyd in person at an outreach. He and an immaculately dressed Mrs L graced us with their presence. It was a few years after I had joined RCI. Lloyd gave a long talk (over 30 mins) gesturing with hands and reeling off scripture after scripture without once opening his bible. He covered BI, pyramid, numerics, salvation RCI style all in one go without notes or bible, even aiming a few derogatory darts at other churches for good measure.
At the end of the meeting I was told if I wanted to meet Pastor Lloyd I was to go to the back of the queue which was very long, half the length of the room. Pastor Lloyd stood at the back of the hall like royalty shaking the hands of his subjects and sending them on their way. I didn't bother waiting to meet him.
That was my one and only experience of Lloyd in person. I had heard ex Melbourne people when recounting their time with Lloyd at the Rialto Theatre say what an honour and privilege it was to be invited back to "the mansion" for fellowship. Mrs L's beautiful furs and impeccable style were also mentioned. I suppose with the authoritarian nature of the man and the submission of the people Lloyd was quite happy on the pedestal.
Epi
ps Have heard the no right to read the bible as it is like reading someone else's mail used by another pastor; must have borrowed it from Lloyd.
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Guest
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:03/01/2009 22:46:51)
Reply to Didaktikon (12/11/2008 16:29:07)
Good morning, one and all.
Every so often some "well-meaning" Revivalist breaks fellowship with his former group (ostensibly for all the "right" reasons, we are quickly assured), and so goes off to create his own little "sub-brand" of the general Revivalist product. Of late we've been treated to two further such wannabes: Alf Neri, and the poorly-named "Jeremiah99". But here's the thing: every previous attempt at building upon the Revivalist's cracked foundation has come "a cropper". History has demonstrated, and then rather conclusively, that there is no such thing as a "safe" Revivalist option.
To be blunt, one can't establish "truth" on a foundation of "untruth". If one can't get the gospel correct, then how on earth can one expect the tangible and intangible benefits that ordinarily flow from spiritual regeneration?
In the end, leopards don't change their spots. Neither do wolves cease being wolves.
Blessings,
Ian
Wow, thats a really good point. Not long ago there was some break-offs from the Gold Coast fellowship.
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Didaktikon
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16#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:03/01/2009 23:58:26)
Hi, Guest.
If you meant the Gold Coast RCI, then such is probably not overly surprising. After all, the former and current pastors were apparently involved in the former's failed money-making, property development scheme. So there are bound to have been some within the fellowship who would have found the upshot of this debacle distasteful enough to leave.
But as I maintained, one can't successfully build on a cracked foundation. If there is a 'splinter' group on the Coast, then I doubt that it will ever amount to very much.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Demetrius
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17#
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Registered:19/05/2009
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RE:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:27/05/2009 04:09:43)
I have been reading through a lot of posts on this site and I notice there is a common thread. It seems that the Revival churches are experiencing what I would call "The Doctrine of the Nicolailans" What do I mean by the doctrine of the Nicolaitans? When Churches have been established for a few generations those who are born into it develop a desire (if not a need) to progress through the ranks to be a leader, gaining a sense of superiority over others. This can sometimes be fostered by church oversight and produce people whose sole desire is promotion (self-promotion) at the expense of their brothers and sisters in the church. This attitude breeds disharmony and resentment. I do wonder whether some others on this site feel this same thing occured in your case or if you have witnessed this behaviour.
The doctrine of the Nicolaitans was mentioned in the Book of Revelations to the churches of Pergamos and Ephesus of the Seven Churches of Asia in Revelation 2. It is a symbolic name of a party that represents the hierarchy of a ruling class over the rest of the people, developing a pecking order of fleshly leadership. Jesus hates this and warns the people to repent or else "I will come upon you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." The same warning illustration is applied to those that abused grace, which led to licentiousness from the example of Balaam, seducing Christians to fornication and tampering with idolatry. The individual overcomer is allowed to eat of the hidden manna and given a white stone with a new name written in it.
The Early church father Iranaeus, identified the Nicolaitans in his treatise "Against Heresies" in the second century as they who are an "offshoot of the knowledge which is falsely so-called," mentioning that they "lead lives of unrestrained indulgence." There is no absolute proof that the heretic Nicolas was the Deacon of the same name from Antioch of the seven deacons in the book of Acts, but Iranaeus supposed him to be so. Ignatius mentions the Nicolaitans also, so there was in fact a heretical group existing at that time. Nicolas the deacon was perhaps confused with another Nicolas, the bishop Nicolas of Samaria who was a heretic in the company of Simon Magus.
The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome, and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from. The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led by the spirit of the risen Lord. A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people." This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy lording over the flock. The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema." It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into a hierarchy over the people. This very idea was taken over by the Protestants with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings. The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God's sight and He hates the lust for religious power over others. There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion of the rightful authority of God.
Faithful believers who have put on Christ Jesus, are all God's laity. Peter exhorted us to.... 1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
Similarly Paul said....Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Shepherds serve the sheep but the wolves that clothe themselves with so-called leadership and spiritual authority serve themselves, thinking that they serve God, in essence, this makes them false christs. Early church leaders were established as overseers, not a ruling hierarchy.
It does seem that pockets of the Revival churches are experiencing this problem, how they deal with this will determine their future in my opinion. Blessings, Demitrius
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Talmid
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18#
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Rank:Regular Member
Score:4190
Posts:205
Registered:21/04/2008
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Rely to Demetrius
(Date Posted:27/05/2009 05:29:26)
Hi Demetrius
Personally I reckon that such issues as you mention pale into insignificance compared with the fact that the RCI/RF salvation message is what Paul would have called "another gospel". Even the meekest, most caring person who adheres to that message is in mortal danger!
(Message edited by Talmid On 27/05/2009 05:30:48)
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Didaktikon
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19#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Demetrius
(Date Posted:27/05/2009 05:33:37)
Demetrius,
What's this? Another example of the importing of one's biases into the text of Revelation? And why is it that the Roman Catholics seem to be the most frequent target drawn from Revelation's imagery by Revivalists (whether former or current)? Might I ask, then, from which anti-Catholic website did you cut-and-paste your post?
Now please excuse me but I'm going to be rather blunt. The time is dragging on, and I really couldn't be bothered refuting each of your points in turn. Irrespective of what Irenaeus had to say about the Nicolaitans in his Adv. haer. 7.24, and irrespective of Clement of Alexandria's basic concurrence with this position (see Misc.2.20), the Nicolaitans (of Revelation 2: 6 and 15) didn't draw their name or their teaching from Nicolaus of Antioch (of Acts 6:1-15). John presented the name in his Apocalypse intending for it to be interpreted symbolically, as a wordplay and a pun on the name of Balaam of Numbers 22 infamy (see Revelation 2:14-15). 'Nicolaitan' is nike laou in Greek, which means "conqueror of the people", whilst Balaam in Hebrew is bil'am, "he destroyed the people", hence the pun.
The sins the Nicolaitans were charged with had nothing to do with supposed 'priest-craft' (Roman Catholic or otherwise) or over-blown church leadership, but everything to do with the partaking in, and of, idolatrous sacrifices and acts of religious sexual immorality. After all, Balaam was the achetypical false teacher and "bad guy" (so 2 Peter 2:15), so in this respect, and this respect only, can the parallel be drawn to the Revival Centres pastors that you clearly wished to draw.
Now which 'Demetrius' do you identify with? The Acts 19 bloke, or the 3 John fellow?
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 27/05/2009 05:44:26)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Didaktikon
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20#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Demetrius
(Date Posted:27/05/2009 19:47:59)
Good morning, Demetrius.
Well, I don't need you to tell me which site it was that you plagiarised your post from, as I tracked it down by myself. http://latter-rain.com/eschae/nicola.htm
I was wondering if you might share with me why it is that you apparently believe Mr Jay Atkinson to be a reliable guide in this matter?
Thanks,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 27/05/2009 20:18:39)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Demetrius
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21#
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Registered:19/05/2009
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RE:Revival-esque reincarnations
(Date Posted:29/05/2009 07:36:19)
Hi there: Thank you Ian for the URL- http://latter-rain.com/eschae/nicola.htm. I didn't save to favourites and I wish I had. I had only copied a section relevant to my study at the time. Anyhow, The only aspect of that site that was of real interest to me was the references to coments.... The Early church father Iranaeus, identified the Nicolaitans in his treatise "Against Heresies" in the second century as they who are an "offshoot of the knowledge which is falsely so-called," mentioning that they "lead lives of unrestrained indulgence." The rest was just for interest sake.
I do understand that anyone can, as you say "cut & paste" but I don't have a problem with that in forums such as these (within reason). After all we are not writing assignments for university here. LOL
I see no reason to, as they say "re-create the wheel" that is to say, I am very very busy and do not have time to spend hours and hours rewriting these thoughts which perfectly capture my point. With respect to your opinion on Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria's I would be interested to hear. Maybe when you have time???
Given that you did say "John presented the name in his Apocalypse intending for it to be interpreted symbolically, as a wordplay and a pun on the name of Balaam of Numbers 22 infamy (see Revelation 2:14-15). 'Nicolaitan' is nike laou in Greek, which means "conqueror of the people", whilst Balaam in Hebrew is bil'am, "he destroyed the people", hence the pun."
I totally agree with you there, I was simply highlighting the aspect that I believe characterises the dominering behaviour of some people in church, what ever denomination throughout the last 2000 years. Not to downplay the relative influence of the reference to Balaam. Sometime we humble humans are guilty of tunnel vision when applying meaning to scripture. When you say the John was referring to one and not the other I would disagree. I believe he was referring to both, I also contend that Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria would contend the same.
Now concerning what you said....The sins the Nicolaitans were charged with had nothing to do with supposed 'priest-craft' (Roman Catholic or otherwise) or over-blown church leadership, but everything to do with the partaking in, and of, idolatrous sacrifices and acts of religious sexual immorality. After all, Balaam was the achetypical false teacher and "bad guy" (so 2 Peter 2:15), so in this respect, and this respect only, can the parallel be drawn to the Revival Centres pastors that you clearly wished to draw.
That goes beyond my exploration of the text, thats you thoughts not mine. I am simply saying that in the development of churches throughout the last 2000 years. The desire of some to gain position and authority over others in order to satisfy an entirely physical need. Therefore both applications are true and not in the spirit of service that the scripture espouses.
If you disagree with Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria's assertions I would be curious as to your evidence seeing that they both were writing with 1st hand experience seeing that they lived in that era, whereas you and I have only read about it.
Blessings
Demetrius
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Didaktikon
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22#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Demetrius
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 02:41:23)
Demetrius,
If you go back and re-read my response to you, you'll discover that I was disagreeing with Irenaeus' contention (which was simply parroted by the later Clement of Alexandria) that the Nicolaitans were actually the successors or followers of Nicholas of Antioch. Nothing more. It also seems that you misunderstood the point that I sought to make with respect to John's intended linkage between the Nicolaitans and Balaam.
Actually, I reckon you've confused so much of what has been said, and what's actually involved in this subject, that you really should go back to first-principles and read the primary sources for yourself. There are several editions of the various Church Fathers available, probably the most suitable and convenient for your purposes being those published by Penguin. And I as advised someone else recently, invest in a decent scholarly commentary on the Book of Revelation. Reading such a work will keep you within the bounds of exegetical possibility.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 30/05/2009 05:21:05)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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