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spitchips
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1#
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Rank:Rookier
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 17:23:56)
Hi HG
You look so lonely here on your own post with nobody else.
I'll start off with this:
When this was said by Jesus to the Samaritan woman, it was immediately after the Nicodemus chapter 3 story about being born from above, and prior to that John in chapter 1 does this wonderful summary of who Jesus is (word made flesh) - a summary of his entire mission, really.
My point is that this was a new concept to worship from what the old testament law provided. So now, in chapter 4, the Father is seeking this sort of worship of himself. Not a physical but a spiritual worship. I'm not sure it means the Holy Spirit as such in this particular verse (though maybe it does) but I take it to mean a complete change about of what went before.
I'll leave it there before I make a complete fool of myself when others who know step in ha ha.
Chips
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spitchips
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2#
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Rank:Rookier
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 18:31:40)
HG
I've been thinking more about this .... Jesus was offering a woman like her HOPE - where she had none before. Because the new worship was a profound change, maybe he was pointing to the inclusiveness of the gospel compared to the exclusive nature of the old worship. Firstly talking to a Pharisee (top notch) and then the same message to the Samaritan.
Haven't touch on the 'truth' bit I know.
Now you've gone and made me think.
Chips
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brolga
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3#
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Registered:12/09/2009
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 18:43:47)
If I recall, this proof text of scripture by Revivalists means in (a nutshell) “speaking in tongues” is to worship the lord in spirit etc.
May I quote comment from The Reformation Study Bible;
John 4:23 the hour is coming and is now here. See 6:25. The time is soon coming when divisions between Jews and Samaritans will be removed (v 21), and the temple worship will be superseded. The time “is now here” because Jesus is present and has begun the work leading to the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church (7:39; 20:22)
4:24 must worship in spirit and truth. “True” worship is contrasted with the worship regulated by the temporary provisions of the law, especially the separation of Jews and Gentiles and the requirement of temple worship at Jerusalem. The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were not false; they were temporary and provisional. Worship “in spirit” is worship in the Holy Spirit. He continues the work begun by Jesus (14:16-18; Acts2:33). Prominent marks of the age of the Spirit are the removal of the barrier between Jews and Gentiles, and the ability of Christians to worship without the need for a temple of any kind.
Revivalist are still “under the Law” because of their legalistic approach to scripture. We can see from this it is not what we have to do by “works” (speak in “tongues” etc) but we allow the Holy Spirit to do the work in us and through us.
(Message edited by brolga On 28/10/2009 00:13:55)
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'It is for God above all things that we are born, and not for ourselves.' (Calvin)
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Didaktikon
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4#
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Reply To Heregoes
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 20:34:04)
Hi, HG.
Are you really interested in hearing everyone's personal thoughts on what John 4:24 supposedly means, or are you interested in learning what it actually means? 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Heregoes
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5#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 20:40:21)
Thanks all.
Ian: I would LOVE to know what it actually means!!
HG
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Galien
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6#
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:27/10/2009 21:22:08)
HG, why not google it?
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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7#
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 00:58:14)
Galien,
"Google" it? How would that help, do you think, other than to provide a myriad of further opinions atop those she's already heard? Do you believe 'HG' currently possesses the skills and the knowledge necessary to critically weigh the competing claims in order to arrive at the truth? Her own post presents the distinct impression that such is unlikely 
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 28/10/2009 00:59:28)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Episkopeo
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8#
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 04:34:01)
Hi Ian and all,
Ian, I would very much like to hear what you have to say about this whole chapter. A good explanation would certainly help clear any misunderstanding that comes from Revival teaching. As it is one they use frequently to back up their Spirit/tongues claim, especially when only one or two verses are quoted, it can easily fit their purpose and deceive the uninformed.
My basic understanding from reading it as a whole chapter over and over is that it is very much to do with Jesus speaking to the Samaritans through the woman at the well giving them a spiritual drink of living water, earlier in the chapter. His word being the living water. He Jesus being the truth who brings all believers into a spiritual relationship with God.
The opposite of spirit is physical, material, worldly and God is spirit. Worship will not be offered specifically on a mountain or in Jerusalem as in the past but in a spiritual relationship with God through Jesus, the truth.
The Samaritans shared with Israel in the messianic hope and through Jesus words with the Samaritan woman at the well other Samaritans were quick to see this in Jesus. They wanted him to stay longer and because of his words many more became believers.
Just a few of my thoughts on this chapter because long ago I felt doubtful about Rev's use of this one verse and needed to look harder, but with limited understanding myself.
Would appreciate if you would explain this chapter Ian.
God Bless.
Epi.
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Didaktikon
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9#
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RE:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 16:00:32)
Good morning, all.
A very brief summary of the most pertinent issues might help.
To begin with we need to consider John 4:24 in it's immediate literary setting, before we start reflecting on it's theological meaning. John chapter 4 presents Jesus leaving Judea in order to avoid conflict with the Pharisees; his route to Galilee taking him through Samaria. At Sychar he rests beside Jacob's Well, and encounters a Samaritan woman. John 4:4-20 covers Jesus' further use of the "misunderstood statement" as a vehicle for teaching (consider Nicodemus in the previous chapter as an earlier example of this pedagogical method), with the woman eventually realising that Jesus was the long anticipated Taheb (the Samaritan concept of the "Messiah"). In verses 21 and 22 the statement is made that the worshiping of "God" very soon would no longer be an issue of ethnicity (hence Jesus' reference to geography, coupled with his statement about ignorance), but of correctly understanding whom it is that one worships.
Consider: (1) Jesus left Judea because the Pharisees refused to accept that he taught correctly about himself and God. (2) He stopped at Samaria, a region populated by people despised by Jews, largely because the Jews believed that they failed to worship God correctly. (3) The Samaritan woman had spiritual insight enough to identify what the Jewish religious leaders failed to see: that Jesus was the Messiah! (4) In spite of this, Jesus chastened the woman for being part of a group that didn't understand correctly who it was that they sought to worship!
In verse 23 Jesus states: "But a time is coming–and now is here–when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers" (αλλ' ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον). First, Jesus very clearly stated that the time for correctly worshiping God had arrived. The time had arrived because Jesus had arrived. Second, that such worship would consist in "spirit and truth", and not with [the] "Spirit and truth". The distinction is qualitative: Revivalism promotes the mistaken idea that the verse teaches about the indwelling Holy Spirit (or more correctly from their perspective, "tongues") being the primary idea. However the following verse dismisses this possibility: "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" (πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν). Grammatically the word "spirit" (πνευμα) is a qualitative predicate nominative, whilst "God" (θεος), having the article, is the subject of the passage. In other words, being "spirit" is a quality of God, and of him alone. To worship God in spirit and truth (the conjunction "and" functions in a copulative rather than a cumulative sense) is to correctly acknowledge his rights and prerogatives to being God; it is to correctly understand whom it is that one worships!
Revivalism has, at best, abstract conceptions regarding both God and Jesus. So too did the Samaritans, and like the Samaritans, such an inadequate understanding ensures that the worship is similarly inadequate.
This is but a general summary of the issue. We can certainly tease out the particulars should people wish to consider the detail, in detail
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 28/10/2009 16:48:59)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Episkopeo
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10#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 18:52:54)
Good Morning HG,
Thanks for bringing up the subject.
Epi
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Heregoes
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11#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 18:57:56)
Thanks Ian, certainly a lot to think about there! No worries Epi.
Now, here's what I've heard in the last 2 weeks. I've been to 2 church services (different ones) in the last 2 weeks, and they have both spoken about this scripture. The first one basically said it meant shouting and dancing, and the 2nd one said it meant 'our hearts linking and beating as one with God'. Both very weak and nothing intertpretations I thought. I could barely sit there.
HG
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Didaktikon
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12#
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Reply To Heregoes
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:11:29)
Good morning, HG.
Well, were I in your place, I would've been "shouting and dancing" quite vocally as I departed through the door, mid service, from what I can only assume was some sort of a Pente or charismatic gathering! As for the second interpretation, it's a slightly better (and partly correct) albeit somewhat anaemic, application of the passage. The important thing to bear in mind; however, is not to confuse "meant" for "means", or "sense" for "significance". One needs to understand what the passage says before one attempts to make an application of it for us, today 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Episkopeo
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13#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:13:04)
Good Morning Ian,
Thanks for your helpful summary. I for one would like to consider the detail, in detail. Revivalists grasp on to those few words "spirit and truth" to substantiate their claim that they have the Spirit as evidenced by tongues and so, have the truth. The verse is used often in Revival circles when "witnessing" to people. It would be good to draw out more detail. Please proceed.
God Bless, Epi
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Episkopeo
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14#
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Rank:Regular Rookier
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:25:02)
All,
It's been a huge realisation to me just how, when in Revival, scripture verses were flippantly and irrisponsibly bandied about without much consideration for context. Such profound ignorance.
Epi
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Didaktikon
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15#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To Episkopeo
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:35:46)
Epi, gratia et pax.
You're welcome. Now I'm happy to delve into the detail, but I'd rather not have to draft another 40 page exegetical essay to cover all the bases! Feel free to ask me relevant questions of interest, and I'll respond succinctly (well, as succinctly as it's possible for me to be!) 
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Didaktikon
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16#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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RE:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:36:07)
[just 'snipped' the inadvertent duplication of my original response]
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 28/10/2009 20:03:49)
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Heregoes
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17#
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Rank:Noobmeister
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RE:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 19:42:16)
My densenness is showing through again. Let me see if I am getting this right. To worship God in spirit and truth. The 'spirit and truth' bit of the sentence pertains to God, not to us??
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Didaktikon
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18#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To Heregoes
(Date Posted:28/10/2009 20:01:25)
Hi, HG.
Nope. To worship in spirit and truth is to simply acknowledge who God is; to have a correct appreciation of him.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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brolga
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19#
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Registered:12/09/2009
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 20:15:06)
A brief comment here if I may; The Jews do not know Jesus like they might think they know him and he is pointing out the fact that if they did know the Father they would know him because he is of the Father. The woman recognized him as messiah, because the Samaritans worshipped as the Jews, albeit they mixed the purity of Israel’s worship with their idolatry and worship of pagan gods. Jesus is showing the contrast between Jews and Gentiles and that worship in the Spirit is more intimate with the Father as we recognize Christ in truth and understanding.
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'It is for God above all things that we are born, and not for ourselves.' (Calvin)
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Didaktikon
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20#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To brolga
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 20:19:26)
Hi, Ralph.
A correction, if I may? The Samaritans didn't worship like the Jews (they had no equivalent to the Synagogue), and neither did they worship pagan gods.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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brolga
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21#
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Registered:12/09/2009
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 20:32:11)
Ian,
Ha, your right, it was the Jewish explanation of the Samaritans that was quoted.
More to study on the Samaritans.
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'It is for God above all things that we are born, and not for ourselves.' (Calvin)
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Didaktikon
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22#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
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Reply To brolga
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 20:38:10)
Ralph,
Sooner or later you're going to need to discipline yourself in reading critically.
Blessings,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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brolga
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23#
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Registered:12/09/2009
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Re:In Spirit and in truth
(Date Posted:01/11/2009 20:42:03)
Ian,
Yes I'm aware of that. Hopefully will have everything setup at my fingertips soon, we are in the process of moving house and have packed all my books away, then nuckle down to some serious study.
Ralph
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'It is for God above all things that we are born, and not for ourselves.' (Calvin)
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