Luke, I appreciate your efforts my friend, but you played very loose and fast with your interpretation of Acts 4.

You claim that because it doesn't say they didn't speak in tongues that it was possible they did. You could argue that it didn't expressly claim they didn't wear purple rain coats either, so they of course possibly did.

In your rush to interpret the scripture, you ran rough shod over the point of the chapter:

1. That they preached Jesus resurrection, not tongues
2. The role of the Holy Ghost was that he empowered Peter to preach Christ
3. My most grievous charge, your deliberate omission of vs 12.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How can you twist God's word with a clear conscience to suit your own purpose?
The wonderful treasure of Chapter 4, is that the Holy Ghost empowered Peter to speak of Jesus, the one true way to Salvation.

I will wait for you to illustrate where the desperate need for speaking in tongues is implied directly in one scripture through the word. Would you also like to find a way of twisting the following scripture away from the grace and mercy of God in Jesus Christ?


Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Again I plead with you Luke to let the scripture mean what it clearly says, that you might be saved.




(Message edited by Sh0es On 13/08/2009 08:16:37)

Luke

Thanks for your replies.
 
Given your mixing of allegory and "literal" within the same verses it seems I have to take back what I said about you appreciating the context of Mk 16.16-18. The same goes for your line that "Because ALL Christians Speak in Tongues then at least one of the signs will follow"

C'est la vie.

(Message edited by Talmid On 13/08/2009 15:10:30)

Ok Unkoolman:

I do realize that you do not want links on here but this is sometimes necessary to make sense of the debate. But that doesn’t matter I guess now. This will be my last post on this site. (For now)

I realize that this “court of public OPINION” has unfortunately already decided the result. So I feel that I am wasting my valuable time here.

When I said earlier I would be “getting the ball rolling” I meant that until we systematically go through each and every instance of the Holy Ghost being mentioned and work through it there can be little or no progress made toward reaching the truth.

In response to Unkoolman’s post above, I now realize that this will not be allowed to occur on this site. The only avenue open to me that fits within the aforementioned guidelines is to respond to each and every OPINION voiced on this site. I simply do not have the time open to me to engage in such time sapping activities.

I will leave it up to the individuals reading this to decide whether or not to continue to hear one side of the argument and make their decisions based on that one sided point of view.

I would also suggest that in such an environment where I am playing a lone hand against some very entrenched positions that any chance of truth being established was always going to be faint at best.

On that note I must bid you all a sincere goodbye and I can only pray that your journey is seasoned with grace and that the truth of the glorious gospel be allowed to penetrate your hearts.

I would like to especially thank Ian who has patiently challenged me and even though I believe that he is blind to the truth (blinded by his pride) I am sure he means well and will reap what he sows (good or bad) God is the judge of that.

To Moth I would say that I hope that all goes well for you moving forward and time is a great healer.

To others who have contributed to this debate, please forgive my clumsy if not antiquated approach. I am after all just a former drug dealer and simple believer who God saved from oblivion and am now I am seeing the wonderful fruit of obedience to Gods word.

God Bless

Luke 7:35

"Luke", "Luke", "Luke".

I really do hate to burst your bubble, bud; but it's high time that you started reading what's actually in front of you rather than what you hope is in front of you every time you open a book. And given the recent replies by Shoes, Mothman and Talmid, I don't feel the need to cover the same ground afresh with you. Sufficient it is for me to point out the following, hopefully for your considered reflection:

1. Contrary to what you clearly believe to be the case, Charles Finney didn't speak in tongues; however, there is some evidence that he spoke against tongues. So I'd suggest that you engage in a little critical study of the man, his teaching, his contemporaries and his associates before simply assuming that he meant what you mean every time you see the words "baptism of the Holy Ghost".

2. I've previously addressed that very same nonsensical response/misinterpretation of Mark 16:17ff that you've posted here, and then in quite a bit of detail. However, the fact that you continue to propagate this nonsense as if nothing had happened speaks volumes concerning both your character and teachability. Given your obvious penchant for quoting Greek, perhaps you can explain for me how your picking-and-choosing of what is to be taken in a literal sense, and what is figurative, can be supported by the presence of categorical plurals in the Greek text of the passage?

3. I note that you continue to reinterpret/filter Luke through Paul. Again, I've pointed out why such an approach is invalid previously. Noting this, could you please explain for me how a reader of Luke's writings (say, Theophilus) located in Rome, would possibly have had access to one of Paul's letters to a church in Corinth? Especially given the fact that Paul's writings weren't collected and distributed as a corpus until well into the second century. Or did you naively assume that each and every church had the complete 27 books comprising the New Testament from the very beginning?

That should do for now.

Goose.

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 13/08/2009 18:15:19)

Good morning Luke,

Your attitude saddens me. You were presented with simple questions that could be answered without a systematic expounding of the book of Acts. I also asked you to look deep inside your soul and see if you were willing to stake your eternal life  on the claim that faith in Christ is not enough.

I and others have taken your questions seriously and responded openly and forthrightly, you have not responded in like manner.


Instead Luke you have been like a slippery politician who falls back to their "stump speech" every time they are presented with questions.

I do pray you return when you are able to answer the questions that have been placed before you.


I am sure your colleagues and followers will howl about your treatment here, but you were afforded every opportunity and courtesy to make your points. Considering that at one time each person on this site held a similar standpoint to yourself, I would suggest the unchangeable one is yourself, personally I am comfortable being entrenched in the word of God and my Saviour, Jesus Christ.


"Faith in Jesus Christ" Luke, it can save you.


(Message edited by Uncoolman On 13/08/2009 18:29:34)

"Luke",

Your continued attempts at defending Revivalist heresy were certainly "clumsy" enough, but I'd suggest that such had less to do with you being a "former drug dealer/user", and more to do with you lacking any sort of scriptural warrant for your various bizarre and unchristian views: you presented nothing but untethered and unsupported opinions; I presented substantiated and contextually validated facts.

Furthermore, I wouldn't naively presume to being "saved" were I you. Scripture very clearly teaches that the gospel is the power of God that leads to salvation; you don't believe the gospel, so how on earth could you possibly be saved? These are grave issues, and deserve considered reflection. Time for you to ditch Longfield's anti-Christian rubbish and embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In short, it's time to consider becoming a Christian yourself.

Goose.

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 13/08/2009 17:53:10)

Regarding the '120' confusion:

(Message edited by MothandRust On 14/08/2009 03:30:59)

The final comment I wish to make, is that I have no more training or education than yourself. I am simply a Christian with a Bible and an open heart and mind.

Luke,

Hi Luke
 
here is a link to answer ALL your questions and doubtful assertions on Mark 16.

http://revival.aimoo.com/Please-Consider-An-examination/Mark-16-and-Revival-Mike-Hore--1-1009138.html

happy learning

Metanoia

Luke,

Pardon my pedantry...but you have indeed much in common with Finney...you both contradict yourself...ad nauseum.

You write "read from Finney's own lips..." Have you raised him from the dead? I can sign to communicate with the deaf, but lip reading is not my forte, nor could, I venture, anyone else on this forum, assuming you can present to us a live Finney. Perhaps you have a a motion picture with him "bellowing out the unutterable" which of course in itself is a contradiction. One doesn't have to be too bright to realise that if something is unutterable, it can not therefore be bellowed.

As to "I do not know but I should say I literally......" Waxing lyrical was not in any way a talent Finney employed. if he doesn't know, why should he say? Literally or metaphorically!

Are you, or was Finney perhaps related to Kevin Rudd?

The confused phrase "bellowing the unutterable", is pathetic "evidence" of speaking in tongues. Roaring or shouting (Oxford Dictionary definition of bellowing) seems to be a Pentecostal theme. There is a happy clappy Pentecostal song "Shout unto God". God is not deaf, nor is he the author of confusion.

Luke you are as repetitive as a sitcom mother-in-law and whilst you attest that Jesus Christ is your salvation, you contradict that affirmation with the "without tongues there is no salvation" theme.

As to your deputy sheriff's badge of being an ex drug addict, compared to my past, you were a sissy! So what? Is this a competition with the theme "anything evil you did, I did worse"? My father was a policeman, was your father a fireman?

John

Reply to Fremde


Are you, or was Finney perhaps related to Kevin Rudd?

Cheeky bugger.

As to your deputy sheriff's badge of being an ex drug addict, compared to my past, you were a sissy! So what? Is this a competition with the theme "anything evil you did, I did worse"? My father was a policeman, was your father a fireman?

Yes we know you are a hard man mr fremde, some of the things you have said prove that. I know we are not supposed to mind if it hurts, but some of us do. Some of us have not let the scar tissue from past hurts build up layers of hardness in us. In my experience if I try to harden my heart even a little it blocks god out, and of course that simply will not do.

We have all done stupid things, some of us more stupid than others. That doesn't take away from Luke's experience of coming out of darkness into light. I think the levels of darkness that some people sink to never cease to shock them once they have experienced the light. No, its not a competition, and thank god for that. When it comes to human stupidity, there are no winners, only losers.

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.

That's correct, but one questions whether such has come from darkness to light or from darkness to remaining in darkness.  Luke has clearly demonstrated he is still ignorant of scripture.


That is between him and god. We cannot even pretend to know his heart, or where he stands with god. Having a "correct" knowledge of scripture does not make one a christian.

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.

Leads one to beg the question: "How dumb can a Revival Centre/Fellowship Pastor get and still be able to breathe??" Obviously John Kuhlman, Lloyd Longfield, Victor Samoilenko and the rest of the dumb pastoral gang must be very dumb and stupid indeed to think one can squeeze 120 people into a tiny upper room. Lets face it Darcy Ryan needs a building the size of a renovated second hand movie theatre called "Planet" to seat a capacity meeting of 100 people. Now imagine a small room with 120 people cramped standing room only and someone ate beans or cabbage for breakfast and had a gas problem !!! ...   and only a tiny window for ventilation. But this highlights the sad fact that Revival Centre and Fellowship pastors do not read their Bibles properly.... CONTEXT !!!

Metanoia


(Message edited by Metanoian On 16/08/2009 05:19:46)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.

Metanoin,

Aha! You have touched on something unwittingly methinks! Perhaps that's why Lloyd Longfield bought the Forum theatre corner of (Flinders & Russel Streets Melbourne), he was hoping for his own Pentecost, but bigger (he was no servant, and definitely thought himself to be greater than his Lord). Perhaps the Gothic look of the Forum was all part of his fantasy.

Considering that Jerusalem was subject to the Romans, and there had been many insurrections, it would be unlikely that closed gatherings of large numbers (120) in a private upper room would be unlawful.

No doubt Galien will read into this that I have a dislike for multi-storied dwellings, all things Gothic, theatres, conquerors of Mediterranean descent, zealous Jews, open spaces, confined spaces or perhaps quixotically tilt at some other windmill.

John

..And apart from the obvious gas problem, 120 folk jammed in the overcrowded space of a tiny upper room clapping their hands and singing "This is the Day"...


-- get real !!!

Metanoia

ps it is known that Jewish folk eat dairy foods on the pilgrimage feast of Shavuot so lucky for the 120 as they would have eaten cheese  and therefore the internals would have suffered blockage instead...  

(Message edited by Metanoian On 16/08/2009 15:19:52)

Just one point John.. 120 people crammed in one room would leave only standing space .But the Bible is quite clear that they were sitting, (Acts 2:2) And according to the definition for "oikos - house" in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Volume 5 page 119, we could be referring to the Temple as the place of the outpouring on the Day of Pentecost, hence Ian's thesis that it was the Eleven alone is therefore correct from all the Biblical data that we are presented with.

 .... Luke !! What say ye ???

Metanoia..






(Message edited by Metanoian On 16/08/2009 16:39:56)

 Reply to Metanoian

Mothra, A billion words you say? You are of course refering to Luke's shortened pocket (battleship that is) version. I do hope it has marginal notes and the Revivalist approved correct color coding coupled with the Greek meaning of every word including ands and thes! I think the length of time taken in the detail is supposed to be a warm up for eternal life. Although Mark Twain asserted that eternal life was just about enough time to learn German, to which, I concur.
Warm regards, John

(Message edited by Galien On 17/08/2009 18:06:51)

Hi. A procedural comment ...

I think you should start  a new topic. Let's leave the "Luke" topic to go back to its original purpose.

Sorry about that, I thought I had originally put it under Life. I have moved it.

So do you think there is any real point to the dialogue with Luke? Seems pointless to me really. No one is going to change anyone's mind.

Galien,

The only mind that can't be changed is the one that is completely and irrevocably closed. Such may be the case with "Luke" (he gives every indication of this); however, my experience has been that even the hardest "nuts" eventually "crack" under pressure of the truth.

Ian

I think that is probably true if the person is really seeking god. With Him, there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Good morning Ian,

To accentuate your point. Some considerable time back I disagreed with your accusation (a I perceived it) about my proof texting. Upon reflection, I couldn't see it because I didn't want to (in line with my previously quoted line by S & G that a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest), so you of course were irrefutably wrong.

Fast forward to earlier this year, events, tragedies, experiences et al cause me to pray and reflect (we older folk have these senior moments as time hastens). Himmel! Things don't unite, unfold or gel as they are supposed to and as He is wont to do, my Father (among other things) shoes me (yet again need I say) that several suppositions don't make a fact = proof texting.

Rather than of course blaming my own stubbornness or blockheadedness, should I blame my upbringing, father, mother, how hard done by I have been or Revivalist teaching? Nah! God has given me the best living example with whom I have been with now for nearly forty-one years, who holds no grudges, asks no pity, forgives beyond measure, wants no handouts and is charitable to those in need in the blinking of an eye and all this on top of the most desperate and despicable childhhood I have yet to see a parallel of in any other's life. I allude of course to my precious wife. As her infirmities grow and I reflect upon what I will do/have to do if she is taken from me, I see that Christ in others should be our best teacher, but we too often ignore it.

Jesus did not say that by tongues others will know that we are his disciples, but by the love we have for one another.

Apologies for not heeding your exhortation way back then and along the way .... but I know you are a tough nut, and after all .... I was the loser.

John

Fremde,

God has given me the best living example with whom I have been with now for nearly forty-one years, who holds no grudges, asks no pity, forgives beyond measure, wants no handouts and is charitable to those in need in the blinking of an eye and all this on top of the most desperate and despicable childhhood I have yet to see a parallel of in any other's life. I allude of course to my precious wife. As her infirmities grow and I reflect upon what I will do/have to do if she is taken from me, I see that Christ in others should be our best teacher, but we too often ignore it.

You have indeed been blessed by god to have found such a person to share your life. 

Good afternoon, John.

Well, as we continue to live, we continue to learn (all part-and-parcel of being human, methinks). I'll be certain to add your wife to my prayers.

God bless,

Ian

Mothra,

Me thinks that Luke might have gone into hiding. Perhaps Ian has actually and successfully  knocked some sense into Lukey's head !!

Metanoia

Many thanks for your prayers Ian,

You and yours have been in my prayers ....... positively that is! Funny how some old foes on this forum have had one thing in common in stead of sinking in the boot when one is hurt or in difficulty, we have prayed for one another. I was rapt when Mothy recently accepted that I would pray for him. I was saddened to hear of his troubles. I know I have frothed at the mouth at times, but underneath I muse that I would like to see us all saved and joyous.

Any news about your Junia project?

My God bless us all.

John

No I am not going anywhere. I am just very busy with work as well as fellowship commitments.

The difficulty with spending too much time trying to speak some sense to moth of you on this site is that almost all of the regulars on this site have a history of conflict in one form or another which impedes your collective ability to make fair and rational deliberations of my posts.

It is almost like whenever the Government makes an announcement the opposition merely takes the opposite point of view for the sake of not appearing to agree.

One of the primary difficulties that the Pharisees had with Jesus was that often his words were mixed with parables, types and symbols. Peter also noted that his writings were at times very difficult to understand.

2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. 2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.  

Please note that when Peter wrote that this. He wrote to and about people who were members of the church, as we all are. So we do need at times to take care not to make the mistake of pretending that we have ALL the answers and subsequently wrestling with the scriptures to our own detriment.

We must always remember Proverbs 25:2 which says…Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Conclusion: Many of my coments have been misunderstood because they are spiritually discerned not rationally examined.

Another reason why I have visibly backed off trying to correct all of you guys is that at any given moment over recent weeks I had several simultaneous questions/challenges being directed at me. The questions were reasonable ones to ask. However! when accompanied with half a dozen others, led to a lot of confusion on both sides of the fence.

This process was very frustrating for all concerned and led to many misunderstandings.

My sincere desire is to be part of the solution not part of the problem. This led me to consider the scriptures and seek God for the wise choice, if not the logical one.

In 72AD when the Romans encircled Jerusalem there were several factions inside the Holy City (a type of the Church) who were fighting with each other for control.

It wasn’t until the Romans attacked that they actually stopped fighting among themselves.

This is a valuable lesson about human nature and this is what is occurring here. Just for the sake of argument pretend for a moment that what I have said is exactly right. The setting is so hostile that and balanced examination of the arguments cannot be conducted in a deliberate and meditative way. There is just too much background noise.

I am going to finish be taking poetic licence with  Romans 10:1-13 (my words in Red)

Rom 10:1  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for (You people on this site) Israel is, that they might be saved. Rom 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (A spiritual knowledge that derives from God and NOT our own intellectual manufacturing of truth based on what we are willing to accept)  Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, (based on works) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:4  For Christ (The finished work of Jesus on the Cross – including the infilling of the Holy Ghost and Speaking in tongues as evidence) is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Signs follow believers)

Rom 10:5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Rom 10:6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Rom 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Rom 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess (Say the same as ) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Signs follow believers)

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11  For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: (You and I) for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I hope that you all can find your way back into a place where you are walking in the Spirit and leading overcoming live in the fellowship of your choice. I do feel that Ian is a wolf in sheep’s clothing preying on wounded and vulnerable sheep. As the scriptures and nature tells us is the case. (He is not the only one).

Jesus is coming back and I simply cannot justify wasting valuable time arguing with people. As such I will move on and do the first works and stop preaching to the converted.

May God Bless all of you; for whom Christ died.

Jesus loves  you and so do I.

Luke 7:35

(Message edited by Luke735 On 18/08/2009 23:36:43)

"Luke",

In a word, "bollocks". The only person who believes that you have the correct interpretation of Scripture is you. None of your "pals" from that poor attempt at a "discussion" forum of yours seem overly keen to be associated with you any longer either, perhaps because they realise that you play overly "fast and loose" with God's Word (even by Revivalist "standards"). Furthermore your "spiritually discerned interpretations" are nothing of the sort. What they are is plain old fashion Scripture wresting, and you know how that ends don't you?

Given your "interpretation" of the Romans passage I've got to ask this: can you walk, talk and chew gum at the same time?!

Goose.

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 19/08/2009 17:11:39)

I am fairly regular on here and dont have a history of conflict. When in grc I was quiet and listened. trouble is I prayed and read my Bible and seen the lies and sneaky brainwashing tricks. Also as I have already stated having the sign of tongues is fake if there is no fruit. The red bits you have added to the bible quotes are the same old dogma we have all had the scales removed to see through. Rev. 22v18 If any man shall add unto these things............
I have recieved the sign of tongues. my presbyterian pastor also has recieved the sign of tongues. The difference between him and revival 'pastors' is he has put in the effort to learn the scriptures. He has the Holy Spirit with or without tongues, and like Paul has the scripture knowledge as well. Add to this he is a warm, honest and loving person. Sorry but without the fruit you are living in fake land, and playing churches.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Luke my friend,

I believe any person reading this site will realise as you admitted that the questions put to you were fair and just.

Despite any claim you can make about our state of heart etc. You failed to answer simple questions that were put before you. When someone asks you what "1 + 1" equals, you reply "oranges" then rage against us for being Pharisees and not understanding the Spiritual nature of your answers. Sometimes we are unlucky and instead of the baffling yet simple reply of: "oranges" we instead get the entire history of the orange. You are answering all of these questions in a way that allows you to fall back to your stump speech and completely avoid the sincere questions placed before you.

For your benefit, I will copy my previous questions into this thread for you to ponder:


1.


I will wait for you to illustrate where the desperate need for speaking in tongues is implied directly in one scripture through the word. Would you also like to find a way of twisting the following scripture away from the grace and mercy of God in Jesus Christ?


Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.


2.

I want you to think about something for me Luke.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "

Not the ather and not the Spirit, but Christ alone.

Pray and think very carefully Luke before you answer this question.

Will you go on the public record and say that faith in Christ Jesus alone, is not enough to inherit the Kingdom of God?

Will you put your life on your interpretation of scripture that is at odds with: Luther, Wesley, Calvin, Arminius and even Finney?

Be very very clear on your answer Luke, and know this: If you preach that "Faith in Christ" is not enough, then you advocate another gospel than the one that came from Jesus lips and separate yourself entirely from the love and grace of God.

Pray Luke as I pray for you, that you may repent, be saved and be a brother.

3.

As troubling as it must be for you, the word simply does not imply that tongues is necessary for Salvation. if this was the vital crowning message of the Gospel, where is it in Matthew, Luke & John?




I do pray with all my heart that you can open the word and answer these questions honestly and forthrightly for the sake of your own souls and for those following your ministry.

Again I will tell you that I once stood in your position, not a minister but a hearer of the word and I once defended the position with as much vigour as you do now. I allowed Christ to lead me to him and now I know the truth of the gospel. I can answer a question about any aspect of my faith with a simple quotation of scripture in context, no scriptural gymnastics, no stringing multiple unrelated verses together or leaning on the Old Testament to support scriptures addressed to Gentiles. Simply the words of Christ.

I am free Luke, I pray one day that you can say the same.

Regards,

Shoes

Luke,

You have done more than take "licentia poetica" you have positively distorted the meaning of the sacred scriptures.

Pax tecum.

Epi

Lookey,

No I am not going anywhere. I am just very busy with work as well as fellowship commitments.

(Message edited by MothandRust On 19/08/2009 05:47:48)

Luke735,
Twisting scripture is very naughty, and you even admit to doing so and put in disclaimers of "poetic licence". Tsk tsk tsk. Try reading the whole book of Romans, slowly, and with humility, and see whether it gels with the Revivalist "salvation doctrine". Actually, try reading the Gospels, perhaps the gospel of John, and see if that lines up with your doctrine. Then repeat with other NT books. Then do some research into the early christian church and try to find out whether they believed what you do.

There are heaps of other ways you could approach this truth-finding research, but you will always arrive at the same conclusion: the RF "salvation doctrine" is rubbish.

I hope that instead of preaching ad infinitum, you direct your energy to some self-examination. Your colour coded preaching is kind of amusing to read, but you are definitely not convincing anyone, rather, you are holding up a mirror and we are seeing ourselves with a several year time delay, and thanking God for taking us out of there.

Sin Tax Error

Nice to know Luke see us as all being Pharisees in agreement. I guess we should be grateful to him for illuminating where we came from and the twisted false doctrines attached. We have unity in our mutual disgust at the glorifying of tongues, and it seems to have bonded us.

I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on between Moth and me......

T Shirts? Luxury! We only ever had hair shirts in the CAI! We would have felt formerly dressed if we had T Shirts! Of course in the PRC we only ever had sackcloth, but we were grateful.

John

Luke

Be sure to post when you get that promised evaluation by koine Greek experts of "the large Acts essay".  (I'm being patient but curious as to whether anything will eventuate.) Be sure to let us know what their level of expertise is.

PS It would be a *really* good idea to follow up the suggestions in SinTaxError's last post. They're good stuff!

PPS Your appoach to the scripture far from being Spiritual is rather spiritual and really does align you with Re 22.18-19.

(Message edited by Talmid On 19/08/2009 17:11:38)

Good morning, Talmid.

Be sure to post when you get that promised evaluation by koine Greek experts of "the large Acts essay".  (I'm being patient but curious as to whether anything will eventuate.) Be sure to let us know what their level of expertise is.

I'd forgotten all about that! "Lukie's" threat to "disprove" my Greek exegeses

Don't hold your breath, bro'.

Blessings,

Ian

Hi, all.

Does anyone remember that Revivalist pastor-wannabe chap, "Luke"? Has anyone bothered to visit any of his multiplied forae of late? I just did, and it seems pretty clear that his sites have, well, "stalled". All of that "noise" from the likes of Brian, Sabs, and Paul about having a safe place, free from me, to discuss "stuff" apparently was just that, "noise". Deja vu to a few in the ex-GRC crew

Deary me, and c'est la vie!

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 23/08/2009 19:04:37)

I can't see any point visiting there. Only encourages them. I am sure if he discovers Jesus and forgets his misguided line he will come back and tell us.

Hi All: FYI…I have recently received an email from Ian Thomason regarding my “Critical Examination of Ian Thomason's Conclusions on his “Revivalist dogma and the book of Acts (An exegetical and theological evaluation)”

In the email Ian said;….I've just visited your "The Former Revivalist Discussion Forum", and noticed that you have copied, in full, several of my essays. You did not seek permission from me to do this; consequently, you have breached my copyright. I am directing you to remove any and all of my work from said site, immediately.    Ian

Now I do realise that Ian believes that he is never wrong about anything, anywhere, anytime. I also realise that he, being the wolf in sheep’s clothing, Pharisee that he is simply cannot handle his conclusions being challenged or rather exposed. So his resorting to this method of threatening legal action for daring to disagree with his conclusions is of no surprise to me.

Frankly I’m more surprised he didn’t threaten me this way even sooner than he has. I can only surmise that he saw an opportunity to grab some limelight while it was there to be grabbed. I did remove the evaluation from my forum for several reasons.

They are as follows:

1.       As stated earlier I have sent a Word version of Ian’s work to friends in the US to critique Ian’s essay and I will re-introduce the evaluations once I get them back.

2.       I think that my forum should be more about former members and their recovery than focusing on the Luke warm ideals of a Baptist Theologian/Pharisee like Ian Thomason.

3.       I have much more important work to do establishing a work for Jesus in my corner of the vineyard than crossing swords with someone whose self-absorbed arrogance does more to achieve the goal of demonstrating his false doctrine than anything I could say. (You know them by their fruits)

4.       I have realised that some people just will not be told. At least not until Jesus returns “In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who obey NOT the Gospel” I can only pray that those of you who read this are similarly looking to Jesus the author and finisher of your faith to guide you into all truth. (Not following a Blind leader of the blind like Ian)

I would like to say this in closing. I have from day one said most emphatically that I believe that this forum was established for the reason of cultivating bitterness, discord and general opposition to a group of churches. Churches are not buildings, they are people. Most of whom are good upstanding people and families. Much of the generalisation and attacking that occurs is unwarranted. By "Generalisation" I mean..If something occurs in the GRC this is used often to attack the RCI or the RF. This is unfair and wrong. 

I get that Unkoolman, Moth, Ian and co have a clear desire to encourage the destruction of everything Revival….. I get that!!

But what I don’t get is people who buy that these guys actually care about anyone but themselves. They have an agenda and threaten anyone who challenges their agenda with legal action. THIS IS NOT THE WAY SOMEONE WHO HAS THE TRUTH BEHAVES. The truth welcomes exploration knowing that truth ultimately remains victorious.

 

TO THE REVIVALIST PASTORS:

To those of you who are current Pastors of churches I say this. Over recent years I notice there has been a trend of Pastors talking to Pastors about people in their churches in such a way that is inappropriate. This is murmuring and being a Pastor does not give you a licence to Murmur! This is the real source of much of your difficulties with your people. You are servants and not Lords over their salvation. Act like a servant and all will benefit.

TO THE FORMER MEMBERS:

To those of you who have been mistreated in your various fellowships I say this. The treatment you received is in the past. You would do well to leave it there. Forgive and move on with your lives. If you need to leave, leave. Seek God for guidance and he will answer you. All you need is Patience and trust in God. He will not forsake you!!! He loves you so much, he died for you!!!

As for me…I have done no harm to anyone. I have only ever sort to help people through their problems with scriptures in hand. I spend every day of every week in absolute service in love with my brothers and sisters in the Lord. To God be the glory.

I hope and pray for you people to find that place of rest that is your inheritance through the precious blood of Jesus. You will NOT find that place here on this site.

This site is a trap designed to ensnare the weak at a time in their lives when they are most vulnerable. Stay away and warn as many as you can. That’s my advice.

God Bless

Luke 7:35

(Message edited by Luke735 On 30/08/2009 06:47:09)

 Luke



(Message edited by Uncoolman On 30/08/2009 09:00:14)

As stated earlier I have sent a Word version of Ian’s work to friends in the US to critique Ian’s essay and I will re-introduce the evaluations once I get them back.

If you are going to get "friends" in the U.S. to critique Ian's essay then it would be most appropriate for you to disclose on this forum discussion board who your "friends" are and what are their academic credentials and or academic resumes !! ...   so how about it Luke ??? who are these "friends" of yours and what are their credentials ??

.. but maybe these "friends" of yours are "aphantos" and don't exist at all !!

Metanoia 

Luke: Name calling is just you reacting in a carnal manner. Referring to Ian as a "wolf in sheep's clothing Pharisee" is purely a childish meander. 

In all the Gospels when CONTEXT is taken in full consideration, Jesus was NEVER personal with anyone including the Pharisees. In all cases of His dealing with the "religious" people of His time, Jesus was really only highlighting their NEED FOR HIM.. Jesus actually loved the Pharisees and He chose one particular Pharisee to give us our New Testament Theology.. 

Luke, I reiterate a sound thesis of your positition: "Goose"

Metanoia

Good morning, "Lukie".

Hi All: FYI…I have recently received an email from Ian Thomason regarding my “Critical Examination of Ian Thomason's Conclusions on his “Revivalist dogma and the book of Acts (An exegetical and theological evaluation)”

You did, indeed!

In the email Ian said;….I've just visited your "The Former Revivalist Discussion Forum", and noticed that you have copied, in full, several of my essays. You did not seek permission from me to do this; consequently, you have breached my copyright. I am directing you to remove any and all of my work from said site, immediately. Ian

I did, indeed!

Now I do realise that Ian believes that he is never wrong about anything, anywhere, anytime. I also realise that he, being the wolf in sheep’s clothing, Pharisee that he is simply cannot handle his conclusions being challenged or rather exposed. So his resorting to this method of threatening legal action for daring to disagree with his conclusions is of no surprise to me.

Actually, the truth of the matter is somewhat different, surprise, surprise. First, it ain't I who is the one wearing the "pup" suit, friend. Second, I'm well up to having my conclusions challenged, it's just that I'm not quite so obliging when it comes to the fact of your entire website's content being my work. Third, when you engage in theft, you can expect there to be repercussions. Now this forum provides you with the opportunity to rebut my work to your heart's content; you were even specifically invited to do so. So ... where are your rebuttals? They don't exist on your site, they don't exist here, so what's the issue? Goose.

Frankly I’m more surprised he didn’t threaten me this way even sooner than he has.

So you knew you were doing wrong all along, huh? That speaks volumes about your ethics, don't you think?

I did remove the evaluation from my forum for several reasons. They are as follows:

1.       As stated earlier I have sent a Word version of Ian’s work to friends in the US to critique Ian’s essay and I will re-introduce the evaluations once I get them back.

'Yes', and that was well over a year ago, if I recall correctly. So who is your "friend", and why hasn't he responded yet? Personally, I doubt that you'd know anyone with the training necessary to undertake the task, and the profound silence from your end reinforces this opinion. Incidentally, you might be interested to discover that I contacted  Dr Dan Wallace in the USA several years ago regarding the broad contours of my exegetical study, and he confirmed my conclusions. Just so that you understand the significance of this, Dr Wallace is the author of what is without a doubt the most widely used koine Greek reference grammar in the world today. Of course, I verified my conclusions with several other world-renowned Greek grammarians with whom I'm acquainted too, so let's see what your "learned" friend has to put on the table. Can we expect a response before the Parousia, do you think?

2.       I think that my forum should be more about former members and their recovery than focusing on the Luke warm ideals of a Baptist Theologian/Pharisee like Ian Thomason.

Your forum is a "lame duck" (perhaps "dead duck" would be a better description?), one which nobody apparently has any interest in supporting. So where are the contributions of all your members? The only person who was active there, apart from you ("Ghosted"), apparently has no interest in being so any longer. Did you ever stop to wonder why?

3.       I have much more important work to do establishing a work for Jesus in my corner of the vineyard than crossing swords with someone whose self-absorbed arrogance does more to achieve the goal of demonstrating his false doctrine than anything I could say. (You know them by their fruits)

Ah, yes. You are the lummox who once lumbered in here, with (in your own words) "sword drawn", challenging all and sundry to a "duel"! If my memory serves me correctly, shortly thereafter you left with said "sword" broken, and tail located firmly between the legs, whimpering as you toddled off. To "arrogant", then, clearly we should add "deluded" to the list of your moral faults.

4.       I have realised that some people just will not be told. At least not until Jesus returns “In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who obey NOT the Gospel” I can only pray that those of you who read this are similarly looking to Jesus the author and finisher of your faith to guide you into all truth. (Not following a Blind leader of the blind like Ian)

Methinks you'd better hope that Jesus' return is delayed a wee bit longer, as you simply ain't ready!

I would like to say this in closing. I have from day one said most emphatically that I believe that this forum was established for the reason of cultivating bitterness, discord and general opposition to a group of churches. Churches are not buildings, they are people. Most of whom are good upstanding people and families. Much of the generalisation and attacking that occurs is unwarranted. By "Generalisation" I mean..If something occurs in the GRC this is used often to attack the RCI or the RF. This is unfair and wrong.

Noting the emphasis that I placed on your words, above, which forum are you discussing now? This one? Or yours? Dimwit.

I get that Unkoolman, Moth, Ian and co have a clear desire to encourage the destruction of everything Revival….. I get that!!

But what I don’t get is people who buy that these guys actually care about anyone but themselves. They have an agenda and threaten anyone who challenges their agenda with legal action. THIS IS NOT THE WAY SOMEONE WHO HAS THE TRUTH BEHAVES. The truth welcomes exploration knowing that truth ultimately remains victorious.

It's time to cease playing the hypocrite, you twit. You steal my work without asking, you build an entire forum around it, and then bemoan the fact that I take umbrage?! The reality is that I let you have your run for a while, hoping that there would be something of substance there from someone other than myself, eventually. But guess what? Nothing. Now if I wasn't interested in having you engage with my stuff, then why would I open a thread here, inviting you to do so? How loose is your grasp on reality, do you think?

In closing, you, my unchristian fiend (and that's not a typo, by the way) are naught but an arrogant and self-deluded twit. If ever a man needed advice, it was you. If ever a man lacked the wherewithal to be giving advice, it is you. I'm confident that anyone who compares the cr*p that you serve up on your forum, to my exegeses here, will know where the truth lies. The profound silence emanating from your "discussion site" is testament to the simple discernment exercised by the masses.

Goose.

Ian






(Message edited by Didaktikon On 30/08/2009 17:34:49)

Wow! you guys are really deluded aren't you!

Again we will just have to see who is what when Jesus returns. To be sure the moment that I begin to post comprehensive commentary of your heretical exegeses in chimes Unkoolman threatening me with expulsion.  I’m sure that most would not even bother to attempt to correct all of your mistakes given that most of the mouths on this site are against anything and everything Revival. How surprising! Sigh!

If Paul were here posting on this site I think that he may post the entire letter to Jude to you guys on this site.

Read for yourself…Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This is what I am doing!

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is who you are Ian and co!

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

It seems that only the Lord can rebuke you guys!

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

How true this is and how much this is evident on this site.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Again Ian, If the shoe fits!

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Those of you who deny Speaking in Tongues, How do you Pray in the Holy Ghost Hmmm?

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Now really Ian you should change your name to Archōn-Laodikeus (Prince of Laodocia)

Now the critic will say that I am being too harsh, However from Ian’s own lips he proclaims that the tongues that we all speak in fake (therefore not from God) He has condemned himself, literally digging his grave with his mouth… “mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration”  So sad that like bishop Spong all of his learning is used to work for the enemy. So sad!

Luke