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Gods Word Matters
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Registered: 10/03/2007

(Date Posted:12/03/2007 16:29:18)

In the closing months of 1900 Pastor Charles Parham established theffice:smarttags" />?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comBethelBibleSchoolon the outskirts ofTopeka,Kansas,U.S.A.It was there that he challenged his thirty-four students to search the Scriptures for evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.His students were soon in agreement that the outward physical evidence of such an experience was the glossolalia or speaking in tongues.At a New Year Service to usher in 1901, Parham prayed for a young student named AgnesOzman, he laid his hands on her and she began to speak in a language she had never learned or heard. Over the next few daysParham and other members of the students body had the same experience; the Pentecostal movement had begun. Soon it wasto spread to theBritish Isles,Scandinaviaand across the English-speaking world.Sadly after almost a century the concept of an experience subsequent to conversion, commonly known as the Baptism of theHoly Spirit, and accompanied by supernatural phenomena, remains a source of deep rooted division amongst many.I for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring.If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.

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2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

break free
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51#



Rank:Rookier IV

Score:2400
Registered: 18/02/2007


(Date Posted:15/03/2007 16:24:54)

Reply to : Gods Word Matters


ok im not going to touch the scriptures- im still trying to work my way out of the mire left after the revival centeres, and there are people far more capable of discussing/arging with you about them, however i do want to address your comments on the way people are treated in the revival cults......

 

I believe some, when they accuse their Pastor of being legalistic are really accusing the Bible of being legalistic. What I mean by that is; that from time to time there are people in the fellowship whose lifestyle is out of line with the Biblical standard. This behaviour could also be harmful to the sheep. These people should be carefully and prayerfully helped through these difficulties. Not Judged and Persecuted. If their behaviour continues to get worse this person or persons should be ask not to fellowshipping until they are able to walk in the spirit. 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This should be a last resort.
 I am aware of the RF's policy regarding defaulters. I am unaware of a conflict with the scriptural directive (I stand to be corrected).

 

i would like you to show me one person on this forum who is accusing the oversite of unfairness because they were behaving badly and dont want to admit they deserved it.

nowhere in the bible that i can see does it say to put out of fellowship anyone that questions the oversite, (since when is asking questions wrong??) but many people have been.

and for those who are put out for their behaviour it says that first you should go to them and confront them, if they do not listen get 2 witnesses an confront them again, if they still dont listen get the curch and if they still dont listen put them out for a time- it doesnt say that while out they should be shuned!!

and yet many people are put out on the word of others without ever getting the chance to defend themselves (i know i was one of them- i wasnt even pressent when the pasters told my father what i was acused of and my punnishment, and i was never given the oppertunity to deny the claims)

being put out of the church was ment to be a last resort to stop the bad behaviour of one indevidual from corupting others- not a way of control by the oversite to hold a congrgation with fear, but that is how it is used in the revival centers.

and i will say again- if it was just one or people going a bit overboard there wouldnt be so many people all over the world with the same stories. unless you belive we are all making it up.

these cults are responcible for damaging gods children, spritualy, emotionaly, and for some sexualy

no amount of self ritious talk about how they preach the truth will ever wipe their sins, only god can do that but first the need to repent and stop sinning

 


old holborn
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52#



Rank:Regular Member

Score:4430
Registered: 27/11/2005


(Date Posted:15/03/2007 17:02:18)

 Thumbs Up Reply to : break free
I agree with all you say. Like you I'm going to leave the scriptural debate to the experts, the more I read  the more I realise I know nothing. I shall read it all with great interest and maybe become more educated.
Reply to : Gods Word Mattersok im not going to touch the scriptures- im still trying to work my way out of the mire left after the revival centeres, and there are people far more capable of discussing/arging with you about them, however i do want to address your comments on the way people are treated in the revival cults......I believe some, when they accuse their Pastor of being legalistic are really accusing the Bible of being legalistic. What I mean by that is; that from time to time there are people in the fellowship whose lifestyle is out of line with the Biblical standard. This behaviour could also be harmful to the sheep. These people should be carefully and prayerfully helped through these difficulties.Not Judged and Perse






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"But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord "

Gods Word Matters
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53#



Registered: 10/03/2007


(Date Posted:15/03/2007 17:08:31)

Reply to : earth5



hi GWM,Thanks for your post, as Prezzy said it clears things up a bit. enjoyed reading your history and certainly makes where you are comming from a bit clearer.I also will leave the main rebutal to sott1 and moth&rust. will make some comments thoughWell I really don't thing you need to be born again to enter the ffice:smarttags" />?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comkingdomofGod."This is the exact opposite to Jesus' words.A bit scary when you think about what he said.




Just for the record The AOG Pastor was a woman. and a very close friend. Life long friend. She hasn't spoken to me or my family since that day. Judgement is a problem of the Flesh, not perculier to RF/RCI etc 

Bye the way  I will send you a great link for some edifying ministry.

GWM

 

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2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

MothandRust
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54#



Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:32520
Registered: 27/02/2004


(Date Posted:15/03/2007 17:16:25)

2)       The 16th Chapter of Mark: Mark 16:15-20 gives five signs of believers. These signs were evident with the early church as they have been in my life. The critic would say, "Have you picked up snakes with your hands"??? The answer is no insomuch as physical serpents. I have however seen from scripture that the term "Pick up" can be and indeed should be, given the context "make to doubt". Equally to drink any deadly thing should be "imbibe, take in and keep mentally".

Good ol' Mark 16. What can I say that hasn't been said far so often throughout this forum. No use re-inventing the wheel here. I'm not in agreeance with Ian's beliefs (I don't believe in demons for one thing) but I think he's done a bang up job at the following thread and I'm gonna shorted it down with indirect quotes for those with really short attention spans because I know for a fact that many skim over it just to cry foul at the length of text (GWM notwithstanding):

Mark 16: An Exegetical Essay

By Ian Thomason (paraphrased by Moth without permission of the author)

Revivalists use Mark 16 as a standard 'proof-text' for their Pentecostal experience, but there seems to be some selective reading. 
For years the RCI has followed pastor Lloyd's unique interpretation that Mark 16 should be read as a parable from verse 9 onwards. Drew Dixon's essay, titled "Is it a Parable?" effectively demolishes that line of argument.

(Ian) consulted many commentaries on 'Mark' that were written from the fourth century onwards in an effort to locate anyone at any point in history, who has offered a similar suggestion to that provided by Lloyd Longfield. He was unable to find one. Therefore it should be in question.

Mark 16:15-18

You know the scripture: "...preach the gospel to everyone. The one who believes and is baptised will be saved, but the one who doesn't believe will be condemned. These signs will accompany those who believe: drive out demons..., new languages..., pick up snakes... unharmed from poison,.... place hands on sick."

Jesus' parting words to his disciples were, "go into the world, and preach the gospel to everyone!" To Christ, the most important thing in the world wasn't that the disciples go into it, but that the gospel was preached: the sole command in the verse is "preach the gospel". I offer that a misunderstanding of the nature of the gospel invariably leads to a misunderstanding of the nature of salvation. History demonstrates that such confusion all too frequently results in a rapid spiral into works-based, human-centric; fear-breeding forms of religious legalism, as such remains the natural religion of fallen human beings.

Ian has a lot of neat stuff here to say about the greek but if I skim over it I'm sure many others will. So I recommend checking the original manuscript to go deeper.

We now arrive at the most disputed portion of this biblical passage: Christ's teaching on the "signs".

Given that Jesus used the Greek plural for "signs" (sēmeia) in our passage, the first question that we need to ask ourselves is simple: how is this word used in (1) the NT record generally, and (2) Mark's gospel particularly? (Moth - more Greek stuff... refer back... I just can't bring myself to soak it in... I just can't) Mark went on further to describe five specific "signs" (note they are plural) that would "accompany" (a future tense, active voice, indicative mood verb) those who "believe" (again an active voice, aorist participle). They are:

(1) that in Christ's name they will drive out demons;

(2) they will speak in new languages;

(3) they will pick up snakes with their hands, and

(4) whatever poison they drink won't harm them; and finally

(5) that they will place their hands on the sick and they will recover.

The RCI understands the majority of these "signs" (numbers 1, 3 and 4) to be somehow parabolic or metaphorical. The RF, on the other hand, apparently accepts the literal interpretation of the majority of Mark's "signs", but understands them to be latent promises to be called upon as required. However, that confuses what Mark signs", with Paul's "spiritual gifts"! The former, however, serves to demonstrate the reality of God to an unbelieving world; the latter serves to build-up an already believing Christian assembly. In reality though, the RF has also attempted to reinterpret away the simple teaching of Scripture because it doesn't gel with the their doctrine.

Because the Revivalist groups universally claim the gift of tongues (itself a biblically defensible position), and because they universally link this particular spiritual gift with the receiving of God's Holy Spirit in the mystery of salvation (itself not a biblically defensible position); they can't simply jettison Mark 16:15-18 due to the difficulties that a straightforward reading of the passage presents them with.

"Yes, all speak in tongues! Well...we do see some people being healed through prayer sometimes. But clearly it's their fault! They must lack faith! Well, no...we'll have none of that demon stuff and nonsense here, and don't even being with the poison-drinking, snake-handling rubbish!"

Unfortunately though, Mark doesn't allow so casual a picking-and-choosing of what one is prepared to accept as valid when it comes to the "signs" that Mark 16 presents. To him, one either accepts the lot, or one rejects the lot. (see original manuscript for the grammatical reasons).

The answer

The RF in particular has assumed two things about Jesus' words at the beginning of verse 17: "these signs shall accompany those who believe". First, that the future tense indicates a promise rather than a prediction. And second, that it's a promise to all believers.

However, given that the statement appears after a conditional sentence (16:16), and given the entire range of subsequent contextual grammatical conditions that Mark presents ("...he that...and is...shall be..."), it's clear that the statement itself should be taken as a prediction rather than as a promise. This is further supported by the fact that each of the six instances of third person plural verbs mentioned with respect to the "signs" of verses 17 and 18, are categorical (or ?generalising') plurals. Categorical plurals separate and distinguish one group, from every other group. This form of plural exists in Greek, as it more easily yields itself to a generic notion: the focus is more towards the action, than it is towards the actor (i.e. "this is the kind of person who does this"). In our text the "signs" serve to distinguish Christian believers as a group, from every other group of people on the planet.

Our current text doesn't teach that all believers will cast out demons through to healing the sick at all. The stress isn't on the notion of promises given to believers it's on the authentication of Christianity as being from God before an unbelieving world. The passage, therefore, teaches that some Christians may speak in tongues. Others may cast out demons. Others still may be involved in the range of supernatural effects that are described, but these effects are simply one part of what it is that demonstrates the uniqueness of the Christian Church as a group separate to and from every other group. The effects?the "signs"?aren't individual promises, they're corporate predictions.

Conclusion

Revivalists collectively appeal to Mark 16:15-20 to authenticate their shared spiritual experience of "tongues", and further, to validate their unique theology that one must speak in tongues in order to be a "true" believer. However, Mark 16:15-20 doesn't reflect or represent the Revivalist theology at all. Each of the Revivalist groups has gone to extraordinary lengths over the years to explain-away the "missing signs", when what has really been missing is a proper appreciation of the passage's true meaning, as it stands. The Revivalist groups, quite simply, have gotten Mark 16 wrong.

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“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic” - Darwin

Gods Word Matters
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55#



Registered: 10/03/2007


(Date Posted:15/03/2007 17:17:14)

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2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

break free
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