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MothandRust
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1# |
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:32520
Registered:
27/02/2004
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(Date Posted:12/03/2007 17:39:38)
Reply to : Gods Word Matters
I for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring. If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where! let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.
You call yourself "God's word matters", and you say your sword is drawn, yet you have offered only heresay instead of scripture to discuss in this thread. I don't think you're in the right forum, but whatever... go for it and try to move on in the true spirit of debate. Let's actually see your hand. Let's hear exactly what you believe and we'll show you where you are wrong. I think you should start addressing what Ian has already put forward though (actually I challenge you to... I'll give it a go myself) His sword has already recently been drawn and you're RUNNING from it! You can find the discussion already started in a question to Frank, but I know Frank will be more than happy for you to pick up the gauntlet. In another thread you've said you're prepared to discuss the validity of tongues with Ian (SOTT) but you've already concluded that his mind is closed to new ideas. Well there the pottle calling the ket black! Is it worth debating? You remind me so much of me a few years ago. And yeah I was even more of a dick back then.
(Message edited by MothandRust On 09/06/2008 06:55:30)
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“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic” - Darwin
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SOTT1
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2# |
Registered:
22/02/2007
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 01:59:15)
Reply to : Gods Word Matters
Righto,
In the closing months of 1900 Pastor Charles Parham established the ffice:smarttags" />Bethel Bible School on the outskirts of Topeka, Kansas, U.S.A. It was there that he challenged his thirty-four students to search the Scriptures for evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. His students were soon in agreement that the outward physical evidence of such an experience was the glossolalia or speaking in tongues. At a New Year Service to usher in 1901, Parham prayed for a young student named Agnes Ozman, he laid his hands on her and she began to speak in a language she had never learned or heard. Over the next few days Parham and other members of the students body had the same experience; the Pentecostal movement had begun. Soon it was
to spread to the British Isles, Scandinavia and across the English-speaking world.
Yes, I knew all of this already.
Sadly after almost a century the concept of an experience subsequent to conversion, commonly known as the Baptism of the
Holy Spirit, and accompanied by supernatural phenomena, remains a source of deep rooted division amongst many.
Well here's something interesting: the above concept wasn't 'invented' by the early Pentecostals, All they added to the mix was the 'tongues' bit 
I for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring. If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!
Okay. Happy to  But first, you can start by showing me, from Scripture, where you find biblical support for your particular brand of 'latter rain' theology
let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.
Sword? Try butter knife, friend.
God bless,
Ian
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old holborn
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3# |
Rank:Regular Member
Score:4430
Registered:
27/11/2005
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 02:38:28)
Reply to : MothandRust
Reply to : Gods Word MattersI for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring.If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.
Is this guy for real? He hops from thread to thread,avoiding direct debate on the subject of tongues as practised by Ll. L adherants, ignores all the previous threads that show the errors of the RF position, and the debate that has gone on , and now he's waving a sword about, offering battle,to anyone prepared to show him where the errors are.
He denies he has any authority, yet he is single handedly going to right all the wrongs, but he "will not lift a hand against the Lords annointed " quoting David, and Saul,. Presumably he's refering to the self appointed , or internaly promoted oversight .Appointed more for their zeal for the organisation than for their knowledge of scripture, or love of God. and the bretheren. Hardly the Lords annointed. in any shape or form.
And he has the gall to come on here and preach forgiveness to the unforgiven, shunned and abandoned, reminding us of the consequencies,of not forgiving, and hinting that we should have persevered, and accepted tribulation many of us were put through. It's obvious that he is completely brainwashed , and I doubt that any argument, no matter how well presented, will penetrate the layers of delusion he is saturated in.
It's a shame that someone who has such a heart for the Lord, and recognises his hand in his life, is so mixed up, but then , been there , done that, know better now.
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"But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord "
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Chartdoctor
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4# |
Rank:Rookier III
Score:2170
Registered:
29/08/2005
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 03:09:00)
Surely this topic is too argumentative to be discussed on an open forum like this???
Although many are hurt through their experiences in r/f rci/ grc that doesnt necessarily mean that they are going to change their mind on what the salvation message is. Everyone on this board cant come out and start discussions on this topic as it starts to look like a battle zone and anyone walking in the spirit shouldnt be doing these things. I do believe we all agree on the dangers of "Legalism" The challenge is to root out all "Legalism" in our lives as " Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"
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SOTT1
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5# |
Registered:
22/02/2007
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 04:51:38)
Reply to : Chartdoctor
Chartdoctor,
Surely this topic is too argumentative to be discussed on an open forum like this???
Surely this topic is far too important for us to understand properly, than to simply dismiss out of hand because you may fear that your own interpretation of the matter will be found wanting?
Although many are hurt through their experiences in r/f rci/ grc that doesnt necessarily mean that they are going to change their mind on what the salvation message is. Everyone on this board cant come out and start discussions on this topic as it starts to look like a battle zone and anyone walking in the spirit shouldnt be doing these things. I do believe we all agree on the dangers of "Legalism" The challenge is to root out all "Legalism" in our lives as " Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"
Well, here's the rub: Paul speaks very few words about simple 'legalism, in, and of itself; but volumes about 'legalism' which has resulted from mis-interpreting the gospel, and from the wresting of the same in a vain attempt to support unbiblical views.
Sorry, but both you and Frank's Ghost have got hold of the wrong end of the stick on what's really important in all of this. But that's not particularly surprising, nor necessarily are you to blame: you've both been conditioned to miss both the 'forest' AND the 'trees' 
God bless,
Ian
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Gods Word Matters
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6# |
Registered:
10/03/2007
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 23:35:00)
Reply to : MothandRust
Hi Moth: I have taken your advice, I have printed all other discussions on this site on Tongues. (a small novel) It will take some time to absorb, pray and respond to with FACT.
My intent was to start a thread where the predominance was Scriptural text NOT OPINION.
The First subtopicr is THE REST.
The Rest of God:
The Old Testament was a "schoolmaster" instructor designed to bring us to Christ, (Gal 3:24-25) to prepare us for salvation through faith. The things that happened to Israel, "happened as an example and is there for our admonition upon whom the end of the world is come," (I Corinth 10:11). Bearing these two verses in mind consider the fourth Commandment in Exodus 20:8-11. This commandment speaks of the Sabbath or rest day. In Israel this took place on the seventh day of the Hebrew week. Failure to adhere to this law resulted in death.
Exodus 31:12-17
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. {holy: Heb. holiness}
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Here we see that the Sabbath was set as a sign and that God "rested and was refreshed". The Sabbath was the literal example of a spiritual rest that would one day come when God poured out his Holy Spirit and we would enter a perpetual rest. Ceasing from our own works to be saved by grace. Heb 4:10
Hebrews 4:9-10
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath}
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. {unbelief: or, disobedience}
Question: At what point do we enter the Rest?
Isaiah 28:5-13
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {doctrine: Heb. the hearing?}
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: {must be: or, hath been}
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. {stammering...: Heb. stammerings of lip} {will...: or, he hath spoken}
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Compare verses 11 and 12 to (I Corinth 14:21) where Paul quotes from Isaiah in reference to speaking in tongues.
I Corinthians 14:19-22
19. Yet in the church I had rather speak five words in my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me saith the lord.
Is it fair to say that Paul wants people to view that Isaiah verse as being fullfilled in Tongues and its place in the church is to draw attention to the fact that we MUST enter the Rest.
22. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
In Isaiah 28:11-12 says that entry into the rest and the refreshing of God was at the same time as the individual spoke in tongues, here attested to by Paul. Now compare to Acts 3:19.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be con | | |
