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Title: Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
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MothandRust
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(Date Posted:30/06/2007 09:41:27)

Hey Dog, copied your post here on the benefits of meditation = prayer

That is tempting for a christian to think they are pretty similar, but no, not really!...... I spent years praying (Speaking in tongues and otherwise). What is totally missing there is any teaching of technique or discipline in practice.

It sort of goes like this........ You get down and close your eyes, then start speaking in tongues. You try to think wholesome and godly thoughts as you do, perhaps think about the problems you'd like him sort out, maybe think of the blessing you'd like him to bring you, a good amount of adoration and nice thought about god etc. The main thing is, you are not taught how to train your mind at all. It is simply assumed that if you are speaking in tongues, you are tuning in somehow, (but really, you've spent about 13 of your 15 minutes with your mind racing around from "oh shite, did I leave the airconditioner on" to "man, I'm so horny, I want a wife soooo bad" to "gotta take that library book back this arvo" to............. You know the deal!

The mind is a wild bull most of the time. You can spend a half hour in tongues, and all you've done is blabbered away and are in as much stress as you were when you began. You make an enormous assumption when you think that meditation is just like that. I'm not saying there's no benefit in tongues, but what is DEFICIENT is the training and understanding of technique. With a bit of meditation training, you actually could speak in tongues as a meditation mantra if you wish, but you have to understand the practice first. Meditation has distinct benefits.

Stress is one of the most destructive and damaging things in our lives (physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually). Unless we learn practices of relaxation, we may be stressed around the clock and not even be aware of it. Meditation can be a tremendous antidote to stress, bringing awareness, clarity of mind, peace, and many health benefits. To focus on some principles of practice, meditation is about getting out of our mind and into our senses, becoming aware of what is right here, right now. Most of us allow ourselves to be prisoners of our mind, being stuck in the past and the future. Hopes and aspirations for the future can be a real trap (like a will-o-the-wisp). The only thing that is real is HERE and NOW. To experience (taste, hear, see, feel, touch) what is here right now is an immeasureably beautiful and transcendant state to be in, and it is available to us so freely. Many feel that this itself is the kingdom of god. It is right in front of us, right under our noses, and people ignore this and instead chase pipe dreams of some future place they hope to go to after they die!............UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!

The benefits of meditation are scientifically proven, and are known to have many positive physiological affects. One of the most absurd notions I have heard of is when christians try to demonise the practice of meditation as somehow 'occult like' or sinister. Just one more form of fear and mind-control I expect! There is absolutely no threat or risk to the faith of a christian to practice meditation. Associations of meditation with other religions are purely irrelevent.

You say that the dif is "God hearing us, not buddha". OK, whatever turns you on!. For the record, buddha doesn't hear, because he was a mortal man like you and me. He never was (or claimed to be) a god. He was a guy that sat under a tree and contemplated a few things. The realisation he came to was "I am awake" and......(well that's a whole other story)! Your other comments were about the HOPE offers in the bible for an afterlife. I maintain that nobody knows. I guess if there's a god then he does, but he has made nothing unquestionably clear to that affect. All there are are promises in an ambiguous book-nothing more. Well, many will cling on to hopes as they believe in certain promises or theories of an afterlife. The focus that I referred to above (being aware etc) is what I subscribe to..... APPRECIATE THE KINGDOM OF GOD HERE AND NOW.

See the beauty that is all around us. I live in awe of the spectacle of life that presents itself everyday, in all sorts of places and people. I reckon that's where its at, right under our noses all along. Not wrapped in a thousand layers of paper that you have to wade through before you experience the majesty of our creator. We just have to tune in!

Dog.


(Message edited by Uncoolman On 31/05/2008 04:13:01)

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dogmafree
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(Date Posted:30/06/2007 10:03:09)

Well OK. Thanks (I guess)! Have a strange feeling of being transported!


Here's a thought to add........

I have a sort of suspicion that if there's a god, he/it is hiding right in the very centre of you and me. If we stop all the chatter and noise and stop bloody thinking for a while, we might just find something wonderful!
Dog.

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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)

MothandRust
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(Date Posted:07/07/2007 07:40:20)

Reply to : Wolvenpaw (or perhaps GWM?)

The Pentecostal phenomenon of "speaking in tongues" has created widespread controversy among modern Christendom today. Without the knowledge of the truth, which only comes to an honest heart by divine revelation, many have misunderstood the purpose of tongues. Do not be confused by theories and ideas of men; learn the truth about this important subject.

Tongues is a controversy only in the fringe groups that don't really have a good handle on their Bibles. Confusion is what there's plenty of, that's for sure, and divine revelation comes in many flavours.

INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM - Isaiah prophesied, "With stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people." Is. 28:11. In the great commission, Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall speak with NEW TONGUES." Mark 16:17.

Proof-texting? When Israel hears a people of a "strange tongue" which were the Babylonians who came to conquer destroy Judah and take them captive. By hearing those who spoke in another language then the people would know that God's judgment had arrived upon them ! Isaiah 28:12, "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." It was the rest and the refreshing but they would not hear... they would not hear.. and therefore the enemy with a different tongue came and destroyed them.

Mark 16 - The passage, teaches that some Christians may speak in tongues. Others may cast out demons. Others still may be involved in the range of supernatural effects that are described, but these effects are simply one part of what it is that demonstrates the uniqueness of the Christian Church as a group separate to and from every other group. The signs aren't individual promises, they're corporate predictions (Ian).

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the SOUND thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. As the sound of wind blowing is the evidence of its presence, so is the sound of speaking in tongues evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Does everyone get a cloven flame of fire above their head also? This Sound=Tongues is an assumption - that one's personal experience is the standard by which to accurately interpret biblical context. In other words, the Bible is to be read through personal experience, rather than personal experience being read through the Bible. This is significant. On the day of Pentecost, the miraculous speaking in human languages, each one being understood by members of the assembled audience, was but one of three remarkable audio-visual ?signs'. The first was the sound of a violent wind, with there being no wind. The second was the visible manifestation of flame, a fire which parted over the apostles, yet without burning them. The third and final sign was the praising of God in supernaturally acquired, humanly recognisable languages. (read more...)

Its advocates were quickly expelled from the established churches, whereupon they established the Pentecostal churches. For 50 years it remained the almost exclusive possession of the Pentecostal churches.

Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.

Such a marvelous experience as the baptism of the Holy Ghost demands a marvelous evidence. So God chase to speak through the believer in a language foreign to him as the outward evidence of the marvelous infilling of the Holy Ghost!

That would be marvelous, but apart from anecdotal evidence all we see of this amazing evidence nowadays is people speaking in absolute gibberish that only God can understand, logically, he'd have to understand you even if you pray without making an audible vocalisation.


Also these tongues differ in operation. The gift of tongues in the church is limited to two or three messages, and that by course; and one must interpret. I Cor. 14:27. But the tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is an unlimited manifestation and requires no interpretation. Paul said, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I think this related to how to operate a church that has people of different dialects fellowshipping in it. It was a logistical instruction.

These devotional tongues are also for the personal edification of the believer. They are for self-encouragement and uplifting of his spirit. Paul said, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself..." I Cor. 14:4. So the apostle gladly stated, "I thank my Gad, I speak with tongues more than ye all." I Cor. 14:18.

Paul could have been saying that he spoke in more languages than you all. That sort of information would be more likely to be made known if he was a man who talked to a lot of people of many dialects because as we know, many races and religions were gathered in Corinth. It was a major center of trade and commerce for many peoples from many countries. The influx of other cultures and people gave the city a bit of a mess and deviations from the gospel Paul was setting up would have likely happened in his abscence. There were church members of varying skills too, from "called to be saints" and some who were "sanctified" and "babes in Christ." etc etc. It was a church in flux.

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MothandRust
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(Date Posted:08/07/2007 16:43:33)

You know how some people are incessant name droppers who mention that they know someone important all the time and you just roll your eyes at them. "Oh, I went to pastor soandso's house for dinner and pastor soandso said this and said that..." It boosts their pride to be associated with something they perceive to be important.

Tongues is like that. Revheads et al. love to name drop tongues every chance they get as if it's the special connection to Jesus that they, the special elected holy ones, have got through amazing intelligence, luck and blessing. They're addicted to it. Every testimony, every meeting, every time they go out street harassing... we got tongues... isn't tongues great... the devil can't understand tongues, it's a secret code to God... you get more blessed when u pray in tongues... you can't pray in the spirit without it... your car will start better with it.

In my experience with RF/RCI  et al. they believe there are five very different types of people and are very quick to  pigeon-hole everyone into one of these five (the pastors deny it but I've spoken to enough, even this year, to see that the mindset is still at large)... this is in order of the best category to the worst:

  1. Sensible blessed christians who speak in tongues - The good ones who definitely equate tongues with salvation... and preach it as such. No matter how awful you are... as long as you got the special evidence you're ok by them.
  2. Mislead wolves - those who have been able to speak in tongues but don't equate it with salvation or preach it's necessity, thereby condemning possible converts with a false doctrine of wishy washiness (and people who leave mustongue churches are also in this category - ME! Hi!).
  3. Christian wannabes - the people who say they are christians but have never spoken in tongues... and, even though they may help the sick and do great things by their fellow man, and love and believe in Jesus and his gospel with all their heart, are only fooling themselves by pretending to be holy. (Revheads hope and justify and wonder if those wannabes actually possibly probably spoke in tongues by accident at some stage.. they MUST have...)
  4. Worldlies - People who have never spoken in tongues and who don't follow the bible. People who need saving... get 'em in the tank... get their lips stammering... then everything will be okay. Money will fall out of the sky and pimples will clear up.
  5. Catholics - just plain evil... bwahahahaha
  6. People who don't indicate at roundabouts. - Had to throw in a sixth for good measure. THESE are the people I'm trying to convert.

Our kids used to do Skits on Sunday nights where the wishy washy Christians were put into a washing machine and sprinkled with tonguesoap to wash them right. Sounds so much like the kids I saw in a KKK documentry. A stark and horrible comparison (sorry... eek) but still, the hate being taught towards other humans at a young age towards people who are perceived as different is much more than horrifying.

Non-Christians speak in tongues, too.

Speaking in tongues is much older than Paul.

It comes from the Pythoness of the Oracle at Delphi. How it worked was you made a large donation to the Temple of Apollo and you got the ask the Pythoness a single question. She would the pray to the God Apollo at a fissure at the altar. Recently tested it was found that a mildly toxic gas was, and still is, emitted from this crack in the Earth. The Oracle is over the junction of two earthquake faults. She, the Pythoness, would start dancing around and babbling incoherently. A Priest of the temple would "translate" what the Pythoness had said. She was speaking the speech of the gods and was getting all her information from Apollo.

The Oracle at Delphi started in the 400s BC, when Greece was at its strongest. It continued into the Roman era as if it was a parody of its former self, so the members of the churches of Greece and Asia Minor would have been very familiar with how Delphi worked. It was a shrine of the Greek god Apollo. In response to someone's questions, a priestess would go into a frenzy and start babbling. An attendant priest would then 'translate' the babble into some glittering generalities that could in some way be understood as an answer. Some of the best-known features of Greek philosophy streamed out from the Oracle's early years (for instance, it bred the saying "Know Yourself"); the great Greek philosophers were very good at finding jewels in waste water. The cult of Dionysis used rhythmic music, whirling dances, alcohol and/or herbal drugs, and magic spells to send peoples' souls out of their body (Greek ek stasis ) and into the presence of whatever deity or sub-deity was involved; this too sometimes caused strange sounds.

African animists, too, have long had ecstatic speech in their religions. But, just as glossolalia among Jews marked one as a prophet, glossolalia caused most African animists to foist onto the speaker the role of religious leader or priest, a heavy spiritual and cultural responsibility to lay upon an unprepared person. Wherever they have happened in the past, glossolalia and other extraordinary 'spiritual' happenings have not been, and have not really been allowed to be, a thing 'of the people', which could be a part of the otherwise-normal life of otherwise-ordinary people.

Deep in the gnostic book-hoard at Nag Hammadi, archaeologists discovered what may be the earliest, and perhaps one of the strangest, written instances of glossolalia. (Gnosticism arose at the same time as Christianity, and Gnostics were skilled at melding Christian devotions and spirituality to the un-Christian Gnostic framework -- to use a modern term, they tried to 'co-opt' Christianity.) While modern theologians give the unusual contents at Nag Hammadi much more attention than they deserve, a prayer introduction in *The Gospel Of the Egyptians* is a true attention-grabber. It reads roughly (very roughly) like this :

I?ieus ? ou ? ?a! O Jesus, bond of Yah's righteousness, O Living Water, O Child of Child, O glorious Name! Really truly, O Eon that is, iiii ?? eeee oo uuuu ?? aaaaa, really truly ? aaaa ? ?! O One That Is, Seer Of the Ages! Really truly, aee ??iiii uuuuuu ????, You who are eternally eternal, really truly i? ai? in the heart, You who Are, You are what You are, ei o ei eios ei!

Even the translatable words are very iffy and full of vowels and mixed languages. Like modern glossolalia, it's got a lot of almost-words, divine titles, and 'really truly'. It's almost like a parody, it's so garbled, but it was serious in its intent. The ecstatic speech did not make the book's bizarre beliefs the slightest bit more true.


glossolalia

Glossolalia is fabricated, meaningless speech.

According to Dr. William T. Samarin, professor of anthropology and linguistics at the University of Toronto, 

glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly .... Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language (Nickell, 108).

When spoken by schizophrenics, glossolalia are recognized as gibberish. In charismatic Christian communities glossolalia is sacred and referred to as "speaking in tongues" or having "the gift of tongues." In Acts of the Apostles, tongues of fire are described as alighting on the Apostles, filling them with the Holy Spirit. Allegedly, this allowed the Apostles to speak in their own language but be understood by foreigners from several nations. Glossolalics, on the other hand, speak in a foreign language and are understood by nobody.

Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending upon the social expectations of their community. Some go into convulsions or lose consciousness; others are less dramatic. Some seem to go into a trance; some claim to have amnesia of their speaking in tongues. All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful. However, only one with faith and the gift of interpretation is capable of figuring out the meaning of the meaningless utterances. Of course, this belief gives the interpreter unchecked leeway in "translating" the meaningless utterances. Nicholas Spanos notes: "Typically, the interpretation supports the central tenets of the religious community" (Spanos, 147).

Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.

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MothandRust
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(Date Posted:08/07/2007 16:49:55)


Encyclopedia Britannica, 1972 Edition, Vol. 22, p. 75 -Tongue-speaking manifested itself early in the Christian experience. At Pentecost (Acts 2) the gift appeared as a sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which marked the character of the earliest Christians...During later church history, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) occurred among the mendicant friars of the 13th century, little prophets of Cevennes, the Jansenists, and the Irvingites. Tongues were found also among the early Quakers, as well as among the converts of John Wesley and George Whitefield... In modern times glossolalia has been found chiefly among Holiness and Pentecostal groups. The Saturday Evening Post, May 16, 1964, p.32 - Praying in tongues has recurred at intervals throughout the Christian era, although it did not affect large masses until early in this century.

If speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being filled with God's Spirit, then why didn't Charles Haddon Spurgeon, London's greatest preacher, ever speak in tongues?  Why didn't the legendary Dwight L. Moody speak in Tongues?  Why didn't Evangelist John R. Rice, Pastor Jack Hyles, or Dr. Lee Roberson ever speak in Tongues?  Why didn't the mighty preacher George Whitefield speak in tongues?  Why didn't Pastor F.B. Meyer's speak in tongues?  Why didn't the powerful evangelist Billy Sunday ever speak in tongues?  Don't you see what a bunch of liars and false prophets the Charismatics are?  The true Biblical evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is a desire to go soulwinning ... John 15:5 states, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."  Any carnal fool can utter some jibber-jabber out of his mouth (what the Pentecostals call "tongues").  The desire to win lost sinners to Jesus Christ is the strongest evidence that someone is filled with God's Spirit.  Why do Charismatics focus solely upon the tongues at Pentecost?  The big story folks was that at least 3,000 lost sinners were saved that day!!! 

Photo to Left: False prophet Benny Hinn doing his hocus-pocus act.

Carefully notice that no one in the Old Testament spoke in tongues.  In Acts chapter 9 we read of Saul's conversion (later to be called, Paul, the Apostle).  There is no mention of him speaking in tongues as an initial evidence of salvation.  A Samaritan woman (the woman at the well) was saved in John chapter 4; but we don't see any Biblical record of her speaking in tongues.  There is no record of Jesus speaking in tongues.  Paul never mentioned speaking in tongues in his epistles to the churches, except to the carnal church of Corinth.  The Apostle John wrote 1st John so we could KNOW we are saved (1st John 5:13); yet he never mentions speaking in tongues.  The book of Revelation never mentions speaking in tongues.  Clearly, Pentecostals have created a false religion.

"Tongues" simply means "Languages" in the Bible

It is extremely important for the Bible student to look up the word "tongues" in the Greek.  As you will find, "glossa" simply means "languages."  When the Bible speaks of "tongues," it ALWAYS is referring to a KNOWN, earthy, established language--never some mysterious, unknown, hocus-pocus, mumbo-jumbo.  The tongues which the Revivalists et al. practice is NOT found anywhere in the Word of God. Even the carnal Church of Corinth wasn't foolish enough to speak in some crazy language that even the speaker didn't understand.  This is clearly evidenced by Paul's constant mention of the necessity of an interpreter. No one could interpret the garbage which Charismatics are babbling even if they tried.  They admit that they don't even know what they're saying.  How insane!  For an excellent understanding of the subject of tongues, please read Face to Face With Tongues (by Pastor Max D. Younce, Th.D.)

Every Revivalist needs to take a careful look at Acts 9:17-20, because it puts them all to shame...

"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.  And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

The first thing that Paul did after he got saved was SOULWINNING!  When Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost, he went SOULWINNING!  There is NO mention of tongues anywhere surrounding Paul's conversion experience. 

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MothandRust
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(Date Posted:09/07/2007 06:27:42)

Tongues - an Unsound Evidence of Salvation

"as we were going to the place of prayer, we met a slave girl who had a spirit of divination ... Paul, very much annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, 'I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.'" (Acts 16:16-18)

Acts 16 is a deep Scipture - deceptively simple, but one of those scriptures we come across from time to time that is bursting with meaning beneath the surface. Paul was much annoyed with this girl who had a 'spirit of divination'. Let's look at those words. In Greek, she had a pneu'ma py'tho?a, or literally, "a spirit of python". The NRSV Harper-Collins Study Bible notes of Acts 16:

"Spirit of divination, lit. 'a spirit of the Python,' which was associated with the Delphic oracle."

The Python was a mythical beast which guarded the Oracle of Delphi, near Corinth. At the Oracle of Delphi, travellers would congregate to hear a prophecy of the future for themselves or their country. According to some historians, the Pythoness (priestess) would cry out in unintelligible sounds which were interpreted by another person to form ambiguous verses. To have a spirit of the Python would be to be like the Pythoness - it would be someone who was filled with the demonic spirit of the oracle... someone who would prophecy by crying out in unintelligible sounds!

And as such, there is scriptural evidence in Acts 16 for false tongues. That is not to say that all tongues are wrong. While Paul excorcised this slave girl in Acts from the spirit of the Python, he himself spoke in tongues, and was glad of the experience (1.Cor.14:18). What does it tell us? It tells us clearly that there can be false tongues in the world! As Paul also wrote:

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" (2 Thess 2: 9-10).

What have we learned from the experience of the slave girl? When someone 'speaks in tongues' we cannot be sure that they have salvation, becuase tongues is not a solely Christian phenomenon. According to Professor Maja-Lisa Swartz of the Helsinki University, after her research of the Tanzanian tribes people, "speaking in tongues is nothing specific for the Christian religion. It appears in all religions and is no guarantee for what type of spirit it is that the speaker is speaking for".

For example, John MacArthur writes, in Charismatic Chaos, "Ecstatic speech is a part of many pagan religions in Africa, East Africa. Tonga people of Africa, when a demon is exorcised, sing in Zulu even though they say they don't know the Zulu language. Ecstatic speech is found today among Muslims, Eskimos, Tibetan monks. It is involved in parapsychological occult groups. Did you know that the Mormons, even Joseph Smith himself advocates speaking in tongues? It could be demonic." An Encyclop?ia of Occultism says, "Speaking and writing in foreign tongues, or in unintelligible outpourings mistaken for such, is a very old form of psychic phenomenon."

Tongues are, therefore, an unsound evidence of salvation. They can be demonic! Do you say that someone is 'saved' when they speak in tongues? It is a poor test, if even pagans speak in tongues. Are the Tonga people saved when they speak in tongues? Are the Voodoo people, or the Buhhdist monks saved when they speak in tongues?

Tongues is clearly not God's evidence of salvation. And yet, someone can know whether they are saved or not. In 1John 5:13, it is written:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

How do you know you have eternal life? John doesn't mention tongues. If tongues were the sign that someone was saved, he would have metioned it there. But instead he says about those who know they have eternal life "you who believe in the name of the Son of God"! Recall the comments about testing the Spirits, "test the spirits to see whether they are from God: for many false prophets have gone out into the world ... every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God" (1John 4:1-3). So how do you know you have the right Spirit and eternal life? The answer turns on whether you can "confess Jesus". It is here that the Tonga people, Voodoos, and Buhhdist priests fail.

Perhaps you speak in tongues, and have always thought it was clear evidence of your salvation. Yet, you see now that tongues cannot prove anything. You can confess Christ right now, as you read this, and accept the real evidence of salvation in your life. Paul writes,

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9).

You may also want to make this prayer:

Jesus, I don't want to put all my trust in tongues any more - I want to put my trust in you. I realise that tongues are not the evidence of my salvation - my salvation is in you, and in you alone. I believe now that you died, were buried, and on the third day rose again. On that gospel alone I put my trust. Help me to reject the false teachers who show me a gospel different to that one you gave. On this day, I confess you Jesus as Lord.

 

?1997, All rights reserved. Please copy and distribute information on this page freely, but don't alter or sell it without my permission. Unless otherwise indicated, the Scripture quotations contained herein are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible, Copyright 1989, by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A.

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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick

MothandRust
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(Date Posted:09/07/2007 06:32:33)

Reply to : Brolga

Your article well executed Moth, for my own interest, where did you find the source of information, particularly for above topic? thanks Brolga

The writing is stuff I'm dragging back to the nest for anyone who's interested. I've paraphrased here and there and haven't consistantly given the original authors their due creditation. you can google various phrases to source them out. Here's a site that has some articles about Revival doctrine:

Click for other writing from the Revival cult information centre


Salvation Through History

 
(Extract from Revival Observer, September '97)

Many Revival Centre people are surprised to learn that virtually no one else teaches that 'you must speak in tongues to be saved'. Another major problem is that the teaching has no historical precedent. No one taught it before Lloyd Longfield, and the United Pentecostal Church (compare Jude 3).

What did the early Christians teach about salvation? Go through these quotes, and see what was taught throughout the ages:

A.D. 55 - PAUL AT EPHESUS: "you are saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you - unless you have come to believe in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day" (1Corinthains 15:1-4)

A.D. 56 - PAUL AT CORINTH: "if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9)

A.D. 98 - JOHN AT EPHESUS: "God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God." (1John 4:15)

A.D. 98 - JOHN AT EPHESUS: "Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1John 5:5)

A.D. 100 - CLEMENT OF ROME: "we, too, being called by his will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever" (First Epistle to the Corinthians, XXXII, 15)

* Note - Clement doesn't even mention tongues in any of his letters

A.D. c.120 - POLYCARP OF SMYRNA: "'we shall also reign together with Him, 'provided only we believe.'" (Epistle to the Philippians, V, 10-11)

* Polycarp doesn't even mention tongues in any of his letters

EARLY 2ND C. - IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: "For, since you are subject to your overseer as to Jesus Christ, you appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in his death, you may escape from death." (Epistle to the Trallians, II, 1)

* Ignatius doesn't even mention tongues in any of his epistles

BEFORE 165AD - JUSTIN MARTYR OF SAMARIA: "He was crucified, that the rest of the prophecy might be fulfilled. For this 'washing his robe in the blood of the grape' was predictive of the passion he was to endure, cleansing by his blood those who believe on him." (First Apology, XXXII, 2) "And it is written, that on the day of the Passover you seized him, and that also during the Passover you crucified him. And as the blood of the Passover saved those who were in Egypt, so also the blood of Christ will deliver from death those who have believed. Would God, then, have been deceived if this sign had not been above the doors? I do not say that; but I affirm that he announced beforehand the future salvation for the human race through the blood of Christ." (Second Apology, CXI)

* Justin Martyr doesn't even mention tongues in any of his letters

LATE 2ND C. - IRENAEUS OF SMYRNA: "'And daily,' it is said, 'in the temple, and from house to house, they ceased not to teach and preach Christ Jesus,' the Son of God. For this was the knowledge of salvation, which renders those who acknowledge his Son's advent perfect towards God." (Against Heresies III, XII:12ff)

* Irenaeus does make one mention of tongues in his day. He briefly mentions Christians who by "the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God" (Against Heresies V,VI)

You will have noted how early Christians were associating salvation with Jesus, not tongues.

Discussion of the gifts, especially of tongues, by the earliest writers is quite sparse. John MacArthur even writes in Charismatic Chaos, "In the Post Apostolic age there is no mention of tongues". Because of this lack of comment, some writers like John MacArthur (and B. Warfield in the past) have suggested that all miraculous gifts ceased in the first century.

I believe they go too far. In Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church, Ronald Kydd concludes:

"Throughout the first and second centuries, the gifts remained ... we have drawn from virtually every kind of person in the Church. We have heard from bishops and heretics, philospohers and poets, storytellers and theologians. Generally speaking, and of course there must have been exceptions at specific times and places, the Church prior to A.D. 200 was charismatic".

However, even a Pentecostal must agree - there is no post biblical discussion of tongues until Irenaeus, a gap of about a century from 1 Corinthians, and 600 pages of Christian writing afterwards.

What is evident is that the early church COULD NOT have been PRE-OCCUPIED with tongues. The Anchor Bible Dictionary explains, "there is no hint of the practice of glossolalia [tongues] in any [post-Biblical] Christian writing before the middle of the 2d century. Even for the earliest period of Christianity, therefore, glossolalia appears to be at best a sporadic and ambiguous occurence ... therefore [it is] inadequately supported by the data [that] tongues was a normal and expected accompaniment of the Spirit (and therefore, by implication, an essential component of authentic Christianity)"(Vol.6, p.598).

So I believe that tongues probably had a place in the early Church (as Kydd says), but they obviously could not have been of 'first importance', or the pre-occupation. That position was given to Christ alone (1Cor.15:1-4). Remember that in the earliest Church writings, we have only one mention of tongues in 600 pages. How different to a standard Revival Centre 'salvation' talk or pamphlet - tongues, tongues, tongues, tongues!

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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick

Aimoo Team




(Date Posted:09/07/2007 12:02:35)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
franks ghost
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(Date Posted:11/07/2007 04:42:52)

Reply to : MothandRust

Reply to : BrolgaYour article well executedMoth, for my own interest, where did you find the sourceof information,particularly for above topic? thanks BrolgaThe writing is stuff I'm dragging back to the nest for anyone who's interested. I've paraphrased here and there and haven't consistantly given the original authors their due creditation. you can google various phrases to source them out. Here's a site that has some articles about Revival doctrine:Click for other writing from the Revival

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/upchistory.html

I know it's been a while but here's something I came across re UPC.

At moment I'm having a look at the Azuza st Revival & Welsh Revivals makes for interesting reading.

Must admit my ignorance on such subjects as oneness movements & Jesus only movements.

Why did these groups feel the need to split back in 1955, it seems that is where many of the troubles seem to begin , when you separate Jesus & Tongues.

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it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.

MothandRust
9# 



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RE:Tongues - more gibberish on the subject
(Date Posted:31/05/2008 03:47:44)

An Atheist Goes Undercover to Join the Flock of Mad Pastor John Hagee

http://www.alternet.org/rights/84043?page=entire (to read the whole piece)

We were called back to chapel, and this time the drill was speaking in tongues. We were asked to come up to the front of the chapel and let a life coach anoint us with oil, hold our heads and speak to us in tongues. Fortenberry instructed us to "just let it out. Just let it out and it'll come out."

He didn't come right out and say, "Just act like you're speaking in tongues." But it was damned close. Once again, Fortenberry greased the process by telling us a story about how he'd once been at a service where folks were speaking in tongues, and he was skeptical, but it had just flown right out of him -- and now it just shoots right out of him, almost on command.

I went to the front. One of the coaches grabbed me by the shoulder and sploshed a big puddle of oil on my forehead. Then he began to speak in tongues:

"Gam-bakakasha. Hoo-raaa-balalakasha... Come on, Matthew, let it out."

American Christians who speak in tongues basically all try to sound like extras from the underworld set of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. If you want to pull it off and sound like a natural, just imagine you're holding a rubber replica of Harrison Ford's heart in your hands: Umm-harakashaka! Loo-pa-wanneee-rakakakasha, Meester Jones!

But I didn't think of this at the time and just went another route.

"Let it out, Matthew," the coach repeated, clutching my forehead. "Just open your mouth."

I shrugged and rattled off the lyrics to the song "What is Autumn?" by the Russian rock band DDT:

What is autumn? It's the sky The crying sky below your feet. Flying about in puddles are the birds and clouds. Autumn I've not been with you for so long!

It's actually a beautiful song, but with my eyes rolled back in my head and recited in Russian it sounded demonic enough.

"Hmm, very good," my coach said. "Good job, Matthew."

I kept going, on to the next verse. "What is autumn? It's a stone..."

"OK, that's good," the coach said, annoyed, moving on to the next guy.

"It's important that you practice," said Pastor Fortenberry. "It sounds silly, but when you're at home, when you have a little time, just try to let it out. You'll get used to it, and soon you'll be speaking in tongues like nobody's business!"

He then pronounced us baptized in the Holy Spirit and fully qualified now to cast out demons.

He held up his hands in triumph.

"Hallelujah!" he shouted.

The crowd jumped up, and we all threw up our hands.

"Hallelujah!"

He called out Hallelujah! again. We repeated after him. And we repeated after him again. Arms in the air. Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

I felt a twinge of recognition from somewhere as I threw my arms up over and over again.

We had graduated.

By the end of the weekend I realized how quaint was the mere suggestion that Christians of this type should learn to "be rational" or "set aside your religion" about such things as the Iraq War or other policy matters. Once you've made a journey like this -- once you've gone this far -- you are beyond suggestible. It's not merely the informational indoctrination, the constant belittling of homosexuals and atheists and Muslims and pacifists, etc., that's the issue. It's that once you've gotten to this place, you've left behind the mental process that a person would need to form an independent opinion about such things. You make this journey precisely to experience the ecstasy of beating to the same big gristly heart with a roomful of like-minded folks. Once you reach that place with them, you're thinking with muscles, not neurons.

By the end of that weekend, Phil Fortenberry could have told us that John Kerry was a demon with clawed feet, and not one person would have so much as blinked. Because none of that politics stuff matters anyway, once you've gotten this far. All that matters is being full of the Lord and empty of demons. And since everything that is not of God is demonic, asking these people to be objective about anything else is just absurd. There is no "anything else." All alternative points of view are nonstarters. There is this "our thing," a sort of Cosa Nostra of the soul, and then there are the fires of Hell. And that's all.

Adapted from the forthcoming book, "The Great Derangement" by Matt Taibbi. Copyright 2008 by Matt Taibbi. Published by Spiegel & Grau, a division of Random House Inc. Reprinted with permission. Names of Encounter Weekend participants have been changed to protect their privacy.

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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick

Guest



RE:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 06:47:52)


Hey People,

I was born in to and strictly brought up in RCI. I still have family that attend. I got out of there as soon as  I had the chance. I was 16 when I left and fourteen years later believe it was the best decision I have ever made. I just wanted to say that as soon as we were thought to be old enough (about 10yearsold) we were enouraged to attend prayer meetings to recieve the holy spirit by speaking in tongues. Having lived all my life around this I saw this as normal. But once i started trying to pray for this I realised it was a bit silly and because i didn't want to disapoint anyone eventually i just faked it. every one fell for it. all you have to do is make up a jumble of sounds and when you've grown up listening to other people speak it it's not hard. But after everyone believed me i realised it's all just a con and people can be talked in to doing and believing anything as long as they feel part of a group. I see everyone at this church needy for acceptance and guidance. They can't take responsiblity for their own feelings and beliefs so let others tell them what is right.

Scarred
Aimoo Team



RE:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 23:22:57)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
Companion
12# 



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RE:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:10/06/2008 02:41:23)

Hi all,

Scarred:

My deepest respect for you being born and raised in the cult and having the guts to step out! I want to wish you strength to go on, faith in yourself, friends who love you as you are and what I discovered is, Time is working for and not against you!

I was in the cult only for two years, but it took me 10 more years to leave it behind. So being born inside I guess it will be a little bit tougher for you? I am born in a family with a father yelling at me for 20 years doing things in his way and only his way. 20 years later I still have that voice in my head sometimes :) - do not work on sundays - and so on...

What I discovered for myself is, to think things through, to research all available information and after I understand something, than the voices inside get quite.

MothandRust:

Very good research! I did read about speaking in tongues that it is the opposite of being relaxed or in a meditative state. Its totaly bullshit I think now.

Meditation: If relaxed and you go deep inside you - one day you might meet yourself :)

Greetings Marc

(Message edited by Companion On 10/06/2008 03:01:42)
misterkilometres
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Registered:11/06/2008

RE:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:24/07/2008 20:29:20)

 Hello Brolga,

I too spoke in tongues at an early age and didn't know what it was ( or wasn't ) untill going to RCI!  I also used to - and still can but terrified of doing it - do the unreadable "spirit writing".  I used to show my friends at school and they were amazed.

I wonder how many others spoke in tongues and or showed other "signs" before being a member of RCI?

It seems quite logical that glossolalia and funny writing is a natural thing and nothing to do with Christianity!

But I will wait for Ian's paper on this before i completly throw out thye baby with the bathwater!

It still may be allowable in Christianity - and maybe bridge-building for ministry to people stuck in this nonsense, or just about to go into it!

Regards Paul,

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“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”

dogmafree
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RE:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:01/02/2009 09:27:01)

The notion that 'speaking in tongues' identifies one as having a 'holy spirit' within is utterly ridiculous!

Here's a bloke that has a pretty well known track record that would indicate something else!..........

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XREnvJRkif0&feature=related



Dog.

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"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)

Fremde
15# 



Rank:Regular Member

Score:4470
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Registered:19/09/2007

Re:Tongue speaking? - anyone can do it
(Date Posted:01/02/2009 17:34:40)

G'day Dogmafree,

Ah yes Charles Manson. I watched "Helter Skelter" a few nights ago. I said to my wife afterwards that our so-called head pastor was only a hop, step and a jump away from Manson. His ever-increasing repetition of us all being dead and his words must be obeyed, even if they did not seem to line up with scripture, became scary. The declaring people with and without the Holy Spirit as scare tactics (as also practiced on this forum from time to time) was sickening.

If you haven't seen the movie it's worth a watch. Especially the control tactics. Whilst Manson's interpretation of Revelation was preposterous, I considered later that when followers go down the path of unquestioned obedience and acceptance (as also practiced on this forum from time to time) nothing is anymore incredible, nothing anymore is questionable, nothing is false. There remains only obedience to a new master and a new dogma, masked in the cloak of being the right or "orthodox" way.

John
Didaktikon
16# 



Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31540
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Reply To dogmafree
(Date Posted:01/02/2009 18:30:56)

Hiya, Dog.

Absolutely, and let's not forget to add the likes of the Reverend Jim Jones (of Guyana fame), David Koresh (of the Branch Dividians and Waco fame), and the Reverend Sun Myung Moon (of the Unification Church fame) to the list. Each of them 'tongues-speakers', each of them dictatorial, each of them psychologically unbalanced.

The fact remains that glossolalia in and of itself proves nothing. I'd even go so far as to estimate that nine times out of ten it's nothing more than a complete self-delusion, certainly insofar as Revivalists are concerned. From my research and experience it seems that 'tongues'-speaking does little more than lower one's capacity for discernment, judgment and reason; whilst raising one's susceptibility to uncritically accepting nonsense and so being duped!

In short, 'tongues' is hardly a/the 'proof' of any sort of 'truth' (religious or otherwise).

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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