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Title: The Burden of Proof
  
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Guest
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(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:44:55)

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Guest
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1#



RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:47:36)

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Guest
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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:48:27)

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Guest
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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:49:38)

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Guest
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4#



RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 09:03:39)

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MothandRust
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5#



Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:32520
Registered: 27/02/2004

Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:09/06/2008 02:08:49)

Reply to Cult member: Luke's Word Matters to Him

This has already been covered ad-nauseum elsewhere on the forum and is fairly tedious to rake over again and again, especially with someone as fixed and duped as you are on the subject. This isn't your stomping ground for promoting Revivalist doctrine and you're already banned (and uninvited here as you well know) for nuisance trolling - this forum is for ex-members, ok? Feel free to check out recent discussions though, because I'd wager them to be very enlightening on the subject you've brought up here.

eg. http://revival.aimoo.com/Revival-Doctrines-we-USED-TO-B/2-Questions-Acts-2-8-12-1-1018628.html

Lukey - as at ~10 AM on the day of Pentacost those who had received the Holy Ghost had spoken in tongues. Was there a reasonable expectation that at 11Am, 12PM or 6AM the next day would be any different?"

It seems on that particular day there were many 'diffferences' and 'experiences' that were not typical to the next. Did you get the ability to speak in foreign languages? Did you hear a blast of wind? Did you see what looked liked fire? Is this a common experience of all who speak in tongues and are 'saved' in your church... or is it all shigida shigida? Again, be honest with yourself.

Acts 2 - At length, on the day of the Harvest Festival, they had all met in one place; 2  when suddenly there came from the sky a sound as of a strong rushing blast of wind. This filled the whole house where they were sitting; 3  and they saw tongues of what looked like fire distributing themselves over the assembly, and on the head of each person a tongue alighted. 4  They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in foreign languages according as the Spirit gave them words to utter.

And to quote some recent gem of Ian's:

I reckon you've been fooled into thinking that Paul's instruction to the Corinthian church was intended as a positive! Well, it wasn't. "Tongues" is nothing more than a very minor gift; it isn't a/the seal of God's Spirit, nor is it any sort of indication that a person is saved to begin with. Further, modern "Pentecostal tongues" aren't really evidence of anything; many are actually little more than a learned response, and the majority appear to be simple gibberish spoken over and over. Hardly the sort of thing one should be hinging one's eternity on!

Do you pray normally as much as (or perhaps even more than) you do in "tongues"? If not, why not? And why all the emphasis on, and concern with, "tongues" in any case? The apostle Paul didn't give the matter anywhere near the same degree of emphasis that you have shown thus far, or that Pentecostals give to the gift more generally. In fact, the impression that Paul presents is that an over-emphasis (perhaps fascination) with "tongues" is a sure sign of spiritual immaturity, and not the reverse!



(Message edited by MothandRust On 09/06/2008 05:26:22)

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“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic” - Darwin
Guest
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6#



RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:09/06/2008 06:23:44)

This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
MothandRust
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7#



Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:32520
Registered: 27/02/2004

Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:09/06/2008 06:50:15)

Hi there Moth: I have been buy speaking on many other debate forums and I am curious why it is that you in paticular are afraid to debate the credibility of tongues be a critical part of salvation.

I'm an agnostic come universalist... I don't have the theological astuteness, knowledge, patience, time or desire to engage you and correct you on a subject that I'm completely bored with nowadays and care little about anymore... unless I thought it'd help you and had genuine desires to look outside of your own prior knowledge, but we both know neither of us will budge, therefore it'd be a waste of time. I'd only cut and paste gems from Ian's writing anyway. Why reinvent the wheel?

It's people like Ian who have a calling to debunking this particular false doctrine, and he does it extremely well (as do some other regulars here). They've already engaged you previously and I bet they would much prefer spend time and energy talking to people who are not of a fixed mind about it. Ian's on a break at the moment, and while I don't speak on his behalf, I remember him eye-rolling to me after writing basic layman responses to your questions and havign them promptly dismissed and obviously unread. That sort of pointless and fruitless debating can only go on for so long before it's tedious beyond measure.

This site is for individuals who are looking for answers while leaving your particular mindset and all you're interested in doing is selling a doctrine you passionately believe is correct, but more educated people (others online, not me) have studied scripture informatively to know your particular brand of doctrine as complete bunk and the articles on this site testify that quite clearly.

This is where you were at previously in case you got lost. I think any reader who has some nous and a willingness to work some exegesis will work out what's what. Yes, I asked to have you banned because, otherwise, when on earth would you have stopped your ridiculous ranting. You wouldn't have, because you're a zealot who proved that he couldn't and wouldn't take no for an answer.

http://forum1.aimoo.com/revival/Speaking-in-Tongues/Tongues-The-Rest-and-Isaiah-28-1-703525.html

(Message edited by MothandRust On 10/06/2008 08:16:09)

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“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic” - Darwin
Talmid
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8#



Rank:Rookier III

Score:2160
Registered: 21/04/2008

RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:09/06/2008 19:29:17)

L/GWM,

Your twist on "burden of proof" really is a nonsense. I dispute some of your alleged facts and an awful lot of your reasoning thus far. To be honest, I have no interest in debating this at length since it's already been done and your position has been scripturally demolished in articles published here. Nevertheless, as Moth challenged, let's use your hermeneutic.

As Moth pointed out, the events of Acts 2 interpreted according to your hermeneutic would indicate that any "outpouring of the Holy Ghost for the remission of sin" ought to be accompanied by:
1) a sound like a wind,
2) the appearance of fire
3) human languages not learned by the speaker, but comprehended by at least some of the audience

- not Revival-style "unknown tongues".

Forget for the moment the superstructure of 'soteriology' you're building, and deal with this challenge from the evidence you set as your foundation.

If your foundation is faulty, any superstructure is pretty pointless.

Seriously, if you don't meet this challenge, there's not much point even reading the rest of your argument (though I have so far).



(Message edited by Talmid On 09/06/2008 23:59:57)

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There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
MissIndependant
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9#



Rank:Noob

Score:330