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Title: (Pillnut) - Tongues as evidence of Salvation
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Te Luo Yi
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Rank:Poster Venti III

Score: 11710
Posts: 473
Registered: 25/04/2005

(Date Posted:28/09/2005 07:55:24)

Hi guysI know you think I am a dirty heathen, and fair enough. alhtough I do shower, I don't believe in Xianity anymore. But I do believe, whether the Bible is true or not, it is the final word on Xian theology. Tradition and history play a part too though and cannot be dismissed.That being said, when I was a Xian I thoroughly researched the RC salvation message and found that the idea of tongues evidence of salvation at every occurance is baseless. According to Church history, there has never been a group preaching this RCI type doctrine until the early 1900s. 1st century church aside (and I believe I can show that the early church didn' t preach it either, but let's look at that using the NT), that means from the 3rd Century until the 20th, there was no tongues only group. That's 1800 years. Unless you agree with the Mormons that God's authority was lost from the earth and in need of a restoration of some kind, then you have a problem. Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it. According to tongues only groups, the gates of Hell did prevail for 1800 years as the true salvation message (and that's a crucial message don't you think?) was lost from the earthI would like to issue a challenge to you to debate this in this room. You pull out yourargumentsto support tongues as evidence of salvation and I'll do the opposite.All are welcome to get into this one as they please.And I promise to keep it out of the GRC room so as not to upset those sensitive newbies.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Wanna know why I do not believe in Jesus anymore?

http://whyidontbelieve.blogspot.com

Anonymous
51# 



Registered:06/04/2001


(Date Posted:26/10/2005 04:25:07)

Just wondering what RCI'ers think about all the denominations that speak with tongues (ie. Catholics, mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses', Baptists, etc.).  So many people speak with tongues, but have different beliefs, are they all saved?  If they are all saved according to RCI, then it doesn't really matter what you believe to be saved.  If they aren't saved according to RCI - then tongues is not the sign of salvation.
MothandRust
52# 



Rank:Ghost in the machine

Score:34610
Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004


(Date Posted:26/10/2005 05:54:22)

Reply to : Anonymous

Just wondering what RCI'ers think about all the denominations that speak with tongues (ie. Catholics, mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses', Baptists, etc.). So many people speak with tongues, but have different beliefs, are they all saved? If they are all saved according to RCI, then it doesn't really matter what you believe to be saved. If they aren't saved according to RCI - then tongues is not the sign of salvation.

My dear old mum is a devout Catholic but regularly speaks in tongues at her Catholic Charasmatic meetings. I loathed and despised her during my time in the RCI/RF because of her ties with this 'evil' organisation. I pretty much gave her the cold shoulder for 14 years. Nice hey? We believed that although she had the spirit of God, she was stiffling it being unequally yoked with Pope Satan the 13th. "In with a chance", we'd say, but it doesn't look good.

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I'm still wondering when G/R/Rers believe I received the spirit? The first day I pretended to... or one of the subsequent times during the next 14 years? I honestly don't recall any singular moment. Some people give their life over in a moment but others make the decision slowly over time before the spirit fills their lives. I don't doubt my salvation but I wonder if others do?

What about Seeker's meetings? I used to go to these prayer sessions often and pray for people to recieve. Many left these meetings depressed and confused. They would seek every meeting - sometimes for months! Their heart was in it but we told them something along the lines of 'better luck next time' or 'Humble yourself more' or 'blah'... Where do we see such seekers in the bible who seek the spirit this way? That kinda sux.

I even saw one husband, who finally came along to his wife's church very humbly pray for the HS but never could get a hold of speaking gibberish... he hung around for ages trying.. but sadly gave up. HE WAS LIED TOO... and it was very sad to see. He looked and felt very rejected by God. It was then I started to doubt something about our tongues doctrine.

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Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick

Anonymous
53# 



Registered:06/04/2001


(Date Posted:28/11/2005 17:17:26)

To the Pilinuts

What is your attitude or position on people falling under the power or getting slain in the Spirit ?? To be quite honest, I absolutely love it but I guess your past association with the Noel Hollins group it would be unmentionable but at the CRC where the the Rev centre fellowships came from, it is an accepted phenomenom and it is also accepted at CAI if it happens. It is documented that the founder of Rev Center International, Lloyd Longfield was slain in the Spirit when he first encountered the Holy Spirit... So to put it simply, I am just curious to know your position on this phenomenom.. 

anon

 

Te Luo Yi
54# 



Rank:Poster Venti III

Score:11710
Posts:473
Registered:25/04/2005


(Date Posted:28/11/2005 19:29:08)

Reply to : Anonymous

It is documented that the founder of Rev Center International, Lloyd Longfield was slain in the Spirit when he first encountered the Holy Spirit...

Ahem... 

I am not going to argue the validity of the 'slain in the Spirit' experience here, but...Documented fact?  Documented where? 

In my  years of researching the Revival Centres, I too heard the story that LL was 'slain in the Spirit' mostly from ex-members who had joined other Pentecostal churches.  I think the idea came from Barry Chant's Heart of Fire book which says that Lloyd 'dropped to the floor'.  Now I agree, Barry's description could possibly read as a 'slain the Spirit' experience.  But it could also be taken other ways.  Longfield dropped to the floor how?  But all the same, Chant's book is a secondary source.  He wasn't there. 

More importantly, when I actually interviewed Tom Foster and Lloyd Longfield, primary sources who were both there, neither corroborated that LL was 'slain in the Spirit' at all. 

Foster claimed that Longfield dropped to his knees, lifted his hands and spoke out in tongues. [Telephone interview with Thomas Foster, 1994.] Longfield confirms this at least in part by saying,

...I went along one night to a little hall in Melbourne and out of the blue received the Holy Spirit. [Recorded interview with Lloyd Longfield. Hawthorn, Victoria. 1/9/1994.]

Foster said that LL 'dropped to his knees' and 'lifted his hands'.   The slain in the Spirit experience is usually a falling backward or even a kind of crumpling, with a psuedo unconsciousness.  I really don't believe there is any evidence that LL was 'slain in the Spirit' as you would identify the experience.

Now as I said, my comments here are not meant to undermine the validity of the experience for you and others.  I am simply disputing your 'documented fact' concerning Longfield for the sake of historical accuracy.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Wanna know why I do not believe in Jesus anymore?

http://whyidontbelieve.blogspot.com

Anonymous
55# 



Registered:06/04/2001


(Date Posted:29/11/2005 02:57:37)

Reply to : MrJonah

Reply to : AnonymousIt is documented that the founder of Rev Center International, Lloyd Longfield was slain in the Spirit when he first encountered the Holy Spirit...Ahem...I am not going to argue the validity of the 'slain in the Spirit' experience here, but...Documented fact? Documented where?In my years of researching the Revival Centres, I too heard the story that LL was 'slain in the Spirit' mostly from ex-members who had joined other Pentecostal churches.I think the idea came from Barry Chant'sHeart of Firebook which says that Lloyd 'dropped to the floor'. Now I agree, Barry's description could possibly read as a 'slain the Spirit' experience. But it could also be taken other ways.&nb

Ahem,

I ACTUALLY heard the story for the first time 24 years ago coming from non other than LL's ex-No 1 Son who is Paul Longfield and Paul said from my memory of all those years ago that his father actually fell on his face... Now time has faded my memory of it but truthfully I can tell you that I first heard the story from Paul Longfield..... Your documentation on your web site and the Barry Chant Heart of Fire of Fire Book only confirmed to me the "narrative" that I FIRST heard from Paul Longfield at a Rev Centre meeting all those years ago.... 

anon 

Anonymous
56# 



Registered:06/04/2001


(Date Posted:29/11/2005 03:28:34)

To Mr Jonah, this link is probably an associate of yours:

 
HISTORY OF BRITISH-ISRAEL (THE AOG SPLIT)

Have you ever noticed that strange statement at the bottom of the Revival Centre 'We Believe' list? The first point starts off, "We believe in the infallibility of the Bible...". Sounds great. A few other beliefs follow. Then, hidden at the bottom, is "We believe the Bible identifies the Anglo-Saxon people with the Old Testament nation of Israel ...". What? Where on earth did they come up with that one!?

In fact, how the Revival Centres inherited this doctrine, called 'British-Israelism', is quite interesting.

Hundreds of years before the first Revival Centre, the first 'British-Israel' manifesto was issued. British-Israelism was first hinted at by the British Member of Parliament, John Sadler, in his Rights of the Kingdom (1649). But the movement began in the eighteenth century after the self-styled 'Nephew of the Almighty', Richard Brothers, published his book A Revealed Knowledge of the Prophecies and Times (1794). Brothers was, as one source puts it, "a Canadian madman". He became troubled by visions, and said that the British parliament was the 'beast' of Revelation. Brothers believed he was a descendant of King David, and that only he had the right to be king of England. Unfortunately for him, King George III disagreed. The Cambridge Biographical Enyclopedia (1994) says:

Brothers, Richard (1757-1824) British religious fanatic and ex-naval officer, born in Newfoundland, Canada. He announced himself in 1793 as the 'nephew of the Almighty', apostle of a new religion, the Anglo-Israelites. In 1795, for prophesying the destruction of the monarchy, he was sent to Newcastle and subsequently to an asylum.

Brothers was confined to the mental asylum from 1795-1806. Despite this, and the failure of his prophecy that Jerusalem would be restored to the Hebrews in 1798, his movement flourished. By the end of the nineteenth century, there were said to number two million adherents of British-Israelism, most of them Church of England members. In 1859, John Taylor of London expanded the theory into the field of Pyramidology. In the book The Great Pyramid, Why Was It Built and Who Built It? John Taylor tried to show how Israelites built the Pyramid of Cheops, and how British Inches and measurements could be found in its design.

In 1928, a man called Tom Foster visited the pyramids of Egypt and seems to have been 'hooked'. When, in 1930, he became 'born again' he retained his ideas about it with a new Christian slant - seemingly taking on these new teachings about Pyramids and Lost Tribes.

Getting in to more modern times, the Revival Centre position on British-Israel can be traced back to the one-time Assembly of God ('AoG') preacher, Leo Harris. Leo was on a Revival tour in Victoria in 1941. He and his brother Allan were staying in the house of a Miss Finlayson, who was very interested in Bible prophecy. She informed them that Tom Foster would be speaking in the Ballarat City Hall on Sunday 30 November, 1941 (3PM). When they found out that the talk would be on British-Israelism, they informed Miss Finlayson that they held opposing views and were not interested. In the end, they went with the elderly lady to satisfy her. They left, after the meeting, thinking it was the end of the matter.

When, however, Tom showed up to their AOG meeting at the Manchester Unity Hall, Leo Harris was quite upset. He told his brother Allan to 'do the courtesies', but Tom stayed behind and eventually got into conversation with Leo. Leo reluctantly agreed to get together with Tom for general fellowship on 1 December, 1941. Now, that morning, Leo became very impressed with Tom's views of Revelation. Over lunch, he also acceded to the British-Israel teaching. Because of these new views, the Assemblies of God no longer accepted Leo Harris in their fellowships.

In 1944-5, Leo came to Adelaide and started up a 'National Revival Crusade Centre' (in 1963 they became known as the 'Christian Revival Crusade'), and taught British-Israel. From Adelaide, Leo Harris planted assemblies in other Australian cities. In 1949, a car salesman named Lloyd Richard Longfield was baptised and 'slain in the Spirit' under Tom Foster. During World War II, Lloyd had been a staff sergeant in the AIF in Egypt. He also had visited the Great Pyramid, and was also 'hooked' (Voice of Revival, Vol.14, No.2). From there the story is well known. After disagreements, Lloyd Longfield left the fellowship. With Noel Hollins of Geelong, the "two Victorian Assemblies in 1958 aligned themselves as the Melbourne and Geelong Revival Centres".

We know from old Revival Crusade books that they taught British-Israel and Pyramidology until about 1977. But after Leo Harris' death in that year, British-Israel theology gradually disappeared from their 'belief' list. The Revival Centres International, however, continued to teach British-Israel, and the doctrine was ardently preached by Lloyd Longfield in National Conventions. In 1995, when the Revival Centres split, both the Revival Centres International (Melbourne) and the Revival Fellowship (Adelaide) continued to teach British-Israel.

What do reputable historians and anthropologists say about British-Israelism? The theory can quickly be set aside as having no basis. One anthropologist, Dr. Calvin Kephart, says that the Anglo-Saxons and the Israelites are genetically different races. So, they cannot be the same peoples! In his book, Races of Mankind (1961), page 150, he states, "Since the original Hebrews were Kassites, of typically Turkic build, i.e., with tawny complexion, of medial height and stocky build, with prominent nose, and brachycephalous, all efforts to identify Aryan Nordic people of Europe as descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel are doomed to failure. A more futile task is inconceivable".

 

?1997, Adelaide Revival Centre Information. P.O. Box 494, Glenside, South Australia, 5065. All rights reserved. Feel free to copy and distribute any information on this page as you like, but please don't try to sell it without my permission. Unless otherwise indicated, the Scripture quotations contained herein are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible, Copyright 1989, by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

 

Anonymous
57# 



Registered:06/04/2001


(Date Posted:29/11/2005 04:06:20)

 

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