P:         This is Peter Corston, reminiscing about the beginnings of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Um, Len Day first went to Ceduna because of a lady in the Geelong assembly of the Christian Revival Crusade at the time, a Mrs McConarchy, who's sister was a lady we affectionately know as Auntie Bob or Mrs, Mrs Wordman.  And so Len, went to Ceduna with the purpose of through Auntie Bob, um, seeing where the Lord led him.  And it did lead to the formation of an assembly there.  They had their own little, uh, meeting hall, but the um, early converts were mostly people from the Method..., the old Methodist church, and they run in..., ran into considerable opposition in the community, because the community was very parochial in those days.  So much so, that um, some of the tradespeople refused to serve the Days, and it broke their hearts.

T:         Were they, they were still CRC then?  Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         Um, Revival Centres - they were not Christian Revival Crusade for quite some time to come.  As I, as I started my comment, this is the beginning of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Prior to this time, there were several people who corresponded uh, with Leo Harris and received what publications Leo Harris was putting out at that time.  But there was no actual working Pentecostal assembly uh, prior to Len Day coming here and establishing the one at Ceduna.

T:         Did Len Day ever speak to you about the early days when he was part of Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         In Geelong?

T:         Mm.

P:         Well, um, Len had um, a very chequered career in the beginning.  He, he was um, very extroverted person and he'd try anything once.  And um, following a um, a nasty car accident, one of his friends came to witness to him.  And during the long recuperation period he read the Word and these people came along and spoke to him and ministered to him, ministered the Word to him, `til eventually after about three years in the Geelong assembly, this is about the period of time that Len came to the West Coast.

T:         Can you remember what year he got saved?

P:         No, but by deduction it was probably around `55, because he came to the West Coast in, in roughly `58.

T:         Did he ever speak to you about the leaving of the, the Revival Centres leaving the Crusade?  Did he ever tell you anything about that?

P:         Um, the Revival Centres as such, never really, uh well I'll, I'll lead into that.  Um, anyway, Len, following this considerable persecution and in, in Ceduna, where tradespeople, you know, refused to serve them and people actually abused them in the streets.  Um, it broke Joan's heart - this is, this was his wife at that time.  So they moved down to Port Lincoln and they put out a fleece, in a sense, that um, he didn't have a job to come to - he had nothing to come to - so the first place he went to for a job, he put the fleece out, he said "If these people will listen to the, listen to my witnessing and give me a job, then we'll establish in Port Lincoln.  And this is what happened, he spoke to the Blacker family and the Blacker family became the first converts uh, in Port Lincoln.

T:         Blacker.  B-L-A-C-K-E-R?

P:         Yep.  Um, prior to this though, there was quite a strong little assembly - even with the persecutions - left in Ceduna, with John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Auntie Bob and, um, uh several others up there at that time.

A:   John Kuhlmann?

P:         Kuhlmanns?  Oh, yes.  John Kuhlmann, particularly `cos he went on to become the, the Australian leader of Revival Centres almost, outside of Victoria.  And still, I think he still maintains leadership of probably the most, the biggest assemblies in Australia.  Um, he was orig... one of the original Methodist converts to Pentecost from that work of Len Day.

A:         Lutheran.

P:         Hm?

A:         Lutheran, he was.

P:         Lutheran.  Oh yeah.  Probably.  Yeah, you're right.

A:         `Cos he's German.  

P:         Yeah, I forgot that.  But anyway, he suffered, um, um, he, the, the Kuhlmann family farm was a very prosperous family farm and a very large one, and John turned his back on the, on the prosperity of the farm and, and chose to follow the, uh the pathways of the Lord as he saw them at that time.  Now when Len Day came down to Port Lincoln, an assembly was established down here.  By the time I came into the assembly, there were about a dozen people in it.

A:         Yeah.

P:         I don't remember exactly who they were, but I can remember Garth and Mary.

A:         Yeah.

P:         And the Levermaggis and a few others.  Uh, uh, without trying to get too specific, but I can remem...

A:         Webb.

P:         Mm?

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

P:         Oh yes, yeah, all of them. But...

T:         Who was that?

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

T:         Webb?

A:         Yeah.

T:         W-E-B-B, Webb.

A:         Yeah.

P:         Anyway, there was approximately a dozen people in the assembly at the time that I was saved.  At that time they were having little house prayer meetings in, in a house adjacent to Blacker Motors at the time, plus other house meetings in various homes around the town.  And this was the format that, uh, the assembly was established on.  Within um, three years of Len coming down here, there was a residue of about sixty people in the assembly and Len claimed at that time that he'd, he'd witnessed to, and about a hundred people had actually been baptized, but some hadn't continued at that time.  Anyway, Len said that his work was that of a bulldozer.  Uh, he came and, and ruckshot over lots of things, and then he left the, the work of consolidating assemblies and this type of thing to other people, to other pastors.  The system at that time was, was a system of inheritance.  The, Len since he was a foundation pastor, nominated John Borden to run the assembly.  And that's, that's the way it was in those days.  So John Borden, uh, was one of the original Ceduna converts - he came down from Ceduna to take this task on.  He had been leader of, co-leader of the work in Ceduna.

T:         And that slowly closed down did it?  As they all moved here.

P:         It slowly closed down as many, many of them moved away.

A:         And came here.

P:         A lot of them came down here, including the Fergusons and Auntie Bob and quite a few others, they came down here.  Anyway, um...

T:         These people are all gone now, or...?

P:         Most of them are dead.

A:         They are older - much older than us.

T:         Right.

P:         Most of them are dead.  And, uh...

T:         Sorry, before you go on, would there be anyone that was there at the conception of the assembly?

P:         Yes.  The only one I can think of there would be Phillip Jones.

A:         And John Kuhlmann.

P:         And John Kuhlmann.  And John Borden.

A:         And John Borden.

P:         If you want to contact him, he's in Ipswich, Queensland.

T:         Phillip Jones...

P:         Phillip Jones who is pastoring a small Pentecostal work down, not far from the, um...

A:         Bethesda.

P:         No, no, much further out than that.  Um, uh, I can't think of the name of the suburb he's in.  It was an old, oh, what do they call them...

T:         Is he CRC, independent?

P:         No, no he broke away.

A:         He's the one that's Apostolic.

P:         That's the word I'm trying to think of.

A:         That I told you about.

P:         Yeah, he's pastoring a, a work down there, and last time I went to that particular assembly, he had in attendance about sixty odd people there - it was quite, quite a good atmosphere, very nice little church.

T:         John Kuhlmann, Phillip Jones and...

P:         John Borden.

T:         Now where's John Borden?

P:         John Borden...

A:         Ipswich.

P:         ...is in Ipswich Queensland.  Karagaroo Road, Ipwswich, Queensland.

T:         Can you spell Karagaroo Road, please?

P:         I can try.  K-A-R-A-G-O-O, or something like that.

T:         Karagaroo Road.

P:         Yes, it's a funny word.

T:         It's alright, I'll ring up the 013.  Anyway, sorry about that, I just need to...

P:         Yeah now, John, John was really the first leader of that small assembly after Len Day departed - he was co-leader in conjunction with, with um, Phillip Jones and, and John Kuhlmann.  When John Borden came down here, it left John Kuhlmann as senior, um, pastor at Ceduna, for the time being.  Anyway, um, eventually Len decided to move on, he had a, a um, desire to witness up among the Pacific Islands, and so to fulfil that he built a boat and tried to get up there.

A:         Broken Hill.

P:         Oh, he went to Broken Hill first, I forgot.  Anyway, uh, the assembly down here at that time, uh, John Borden became the senior pastor and eventually some of these other families migrated down from Ceduna during that period of time.  I don't remember the numbers and attendances, uh, from that period of time, but after John had been the, uh, minister here for probably a year or so, um, several families decided - John had a sister over in Western Australia, and there was a couple of Dutch families and John - decided to migrate to Western Australia.  John in order to, um, witness to his sister, and, uh the Dutch people, I don't quite know what their, you know, special intention was, but basically to try and establish a work.

A:         Mm.

P:         So, over they went.  During this period of time here, um, Phillip Jones had migrated down here by this time, and he was the, became the senior pastor by this process of nomination, after the period, uh of time.  Then after Phillip had been this senior pastor for a while, things started to go wrong within the assembly, from time to time, and um, um, they progressively got worse.

T:         Like, such as what?  What would they do that would go wrong?

P:         Well, the usual things that, that you find that break up an assembly - bickerings behind the pastor's back, roast pastor for Sunday lunch - all those sorts of things that really don't go well.  And um, Phillip couldn't handle it, didn't know the answers to it.  Anyway, in desperation, somebody contacted Len Day - who was at that time, uh, had returned to the Geelong assembly - and asked Len to come over here and try and sort out the mess.  Well um, Len got in touch with John Borden, and virtually ordered John Borden to come back from Western Australia to sort the mess out.  So duly John Borden came back, started to sort the mess out, and a few months after this Len Day arrived on the scene with the news that there'd been a major split in the old Revival Centre in Geelong, and that the current administration over there, uh, was a system of, of a board of elders, without one...  Right, one person may have been nominated senior pastor, but the board of elders really had a, a control over, of the assembly.  And Len tried to establish this system here in Port Lincoln.  Um, the first uh, group was John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Rodney Blacker and myself, representing the, the so-called board of elders of that original assembly.  Anyway, after a while, about a year, John turned around and said "Look, I'm not pastor material.  I don't want to pastor the church."  So, to get out of it, I'm not sure, I think he went across to Adelaide... did he go across to Bible School at that time, or did he go photographing?

A:         After he went to Adelaide.  After, uh because, once we were CRC, that's when he went to Bible School.

P:         Oh, that's right.  Anyway, following John's announcement that he wasn't pastor material, the elders and the church as a whole all had a special meeting.  And um, it was decided to send a delegation consisting of Phillip Jones and John Borden - I don't know whether there was a third one.

A:         I thought you went too actually.

P:         No I didn't.

A:         You didn't go to Leo Harris.

P:         No I, I stayed and looked after things while the others went.  That was the first time I've sort of been left on my own.  Anyway, uh, they went to Adelaide, and they contacted various major Pentecostal works with a view towards providing ministry for us, and each of them, for some reason or other, rejected it.  The, the consensus of opinion at the time was that AOG represented our best bet.  Anyway, AOG were unwilling to um, consider asking a pastor to come here at that time.  But Leo Harris was willing to come across and talk to us about this, this move.

T:         OK, before you go any further, why did, why didn't you want to stay with the Revival Centres any more?

P:         Pastor...  Well, the pastoral inheritance system broke down on us from the time that the board of elders was created, and so we had no pastor - when John decided he wasn't, no longer wanted to be the senior man on the board of elders, we had no-one at that stage - Phillip Jones didn't want to take leadership - I was, I was incapable of it, oh well I thought I was anyway, at that time.  And so it went down that Rodney had no intention of it whatsoever.  So, that's the reason why we sent the delegation to Adelaide, to find if we could find ministry.

T:         Did Len Day, was he approached to come back?  Was Geelong Revival Centre approached at all?

P:         Uh, by this time, Len had got himself up to the islands, I think.  He was not, not available by this stage - this is a, a year or two after the, you know, the establishment of the things I spoke about.  But um, anyway, the delegation came back and duly Leo Harris came over here and spoke to the residue of the assembly.  At that stage it had dropped down to perhaps twenty, thirty people - I don't remember the exact number, but it had dwindled considerably from the sixty odd it had been.  And this dwindling had been, you know, a slow and progressive fall.  And uh, duly, after Leo Harris' visit here, I personally went to Adelaide at one stage there, and I spent a day following Leo Harris around like a puppy dog.  And wherever Leo went, Pete went.  Anyway, following, following these sort of things, um, Dudley Cooper was approached, because Dudley Cooper had been in, in the work at Port Adelaide, or Rosewood or whatever it was at the time, and had a bit of a nervous breakdown.  And well, following his recovery from the nervous breakdown, um, he came across here to Port Lincoln and um, uh, following all the inauguration and all that went with it, we became a CRC assembly by, by vote of the people, on the, on the recommendation of, of the elders who, you know including myself at that time.

T:         Was there any attempt by the Revival Centres to keep you as a Revival Centre?

P:         No.

T:         None at all?

P:         None at all.

T:         They just cut you off?

P:         They cut us off because we, according to their teachings at the time, "My sheep hear my voice and follow my lead," uh, this was so strong a feeling that at one time my wife and myself - my mother used to live at Elizabeth, Elizabeth Vale - and Kuhlmann had quite a strong assembly at Elizabeth area at the time, so we went along because of these old ties.  And um, anyway um, the uh, stewards administering the uh, communion elements refused to serve us.  And, I thought "Well, what's going on here?"  So um, I spoke afterwards to Kuhlmann about it, and it was properly amended to the point that we were an exception.  I, I think that from then onwards I severed my ties with the Revival Centres.  That was, that was too much to swallow.

T:         Was there any um, yeah but was there any, there was no attempt at the time when you were looking for a new pastor, for them to help you out?

P:         No, none whatsoever.

T:         Kuhlmann didn't want to help you out?

P:         No.  Oh...

A:         Well, Kuhlmann at that time wasn't prominent yet, was he?

P:         No, he was, he wasn't prominent, he was still a struggling young pastor with, um, you know, working, working through house meetings and hall meetings.  At the time of this refusal to communion elements they had an assembly there of probably a hundred at that time.  This was um, a fair bit later down the line.

T:         Can you remember what the year, date, roughly it was that you went and visited Kuhlmann's assembly and they refused you the communion?

P:         Oh, gosh, no.  But it must have been in the early sixties.

T:         And can you remember the date when you became a CRC?

P:         Um, no, but it was approximately a year, it was approximately two years before the hall was built, and there's, there's a commemoration plaque on the, on the hall.

A:         You were there.

P:         That was the official opening of the hall, but our uh, CRC affiliation was probably eighteen months before that, at least - maybe two years before it.

T:         OK.  I'll work that one out later.

P:         Uh-huh.  It's pretty vague.  But the past, the Geelong assemblies at that time were very strong, in fact it was probably the centre of um, see Leo Harris and Tommy Foster had an agreement that Leo would go to South Australia, and Tommy Foster would continue in Victoria.  Well Tommy Foster did continue in Victoria, and fathered quite a few of those early pastors, like Noel Hollins, Jack Clay, quite a few of these other people grew up, then they, went away from Tom Foster, and began their own work called the Revival Centres.

T:         Can you remember why Tommy Foster...  Now you told me the National Revival Crusade, Tom Foster actually left that, did he?

P:         No, I think he remained with that until it, you know, suffered a name change in, in future times.  Um, or an upgrading, just as the Christian Revival Crusade was originally the Commonwealth Revival Crusade, then it, you know, upgraded the names of the thing because Commonwealth was no acceptable.

T:         Did Len Day or anyone ever tell you, or can you remember any reasons given why the Revival Centres left the Revival Crusade?  Whatever `Revival Crusade' they were at that time.

P:The Revival Centres, um, I think that Noel Hollins and company were very strong-minded people, and they preferred to be individualistic and to work on their own.  And this is why, why they seemed to develop, um around the Geelong area.  Um, for instance Jack Clay was ministering a little bit south of Geelong, and Noel Hollins and, and um, uh the other bloke...

T:         Lloyd Longfield?

P:         Lloyd Longfield were, were co-pastors in, in the very strong assembly, then they divided and had two assemblies.  But, I don't remember whether the division was by agreement or whether, or disagreement - that, that's beyond my knowledge.

T:         Was Lloyd, Lloyd and Noel, were they co-pastoring Geelong or Melbourne?

P:         Geelong.

T:Geelong.

P:         Uh-huh.

T:         OK, `cos Lloyd moved to Melbourne at some stage, I'll have to work all that out.

P:         I, I don't remember the timing of that very, in fact I don't remember the timing of most of the events I've spoken about, because I didn't attach a great deal of importance to it.  But um, I think that's about the early history, then over here in Port Lincoln of course, we, the history since becoming a CRC assembly was fairly well documented by the early pastors, in forms of notebooks and, and minutes and things like this which you could glean quite a lot from.  Those records, uh, were in the church, oh back here a few years ago when John Ashfield was pastoring the work here, uh, I was administer, uh, well, I was in charge of administration and business at the time.  And, uh those books were in my care at the time, but I haven't seen them since those days, nor have I had any particular reason to dig them, try and dig them out or refer to them.  But um, they did contain a lot of early records, they did contain a lot of personal information which was handed down from pastor to pastor about people in the assembly.  But um, if you had your name on the black book, sort of thing, the incoming pastor read the black book and you still were in the black book.  It was a great system!

T:         Tell me, can you remember what, roughly about when they stopped you from receive... like when you went to visit Kuhlmann's assembly in Elizabeth?

P:         Uh-huh.

T:         What, can you remember when that was?  `Cos that's an interesting point, because they do that nowadays.

P:         Oh, yes.

T:         It would be interesting to know when they...

P:         Well, um, Mum was still living in Elizabeth then, and that was probably eighteen years ago, so I'd reckon it would be close on twenty years ago.  Without being too specific, but twenty years ago.  But even...

T:         1973?

P:         It was probably earlier than that.  But, um their doctrine of "My sheep hear my voice and follow my leading and teaching, and if they don't hear my voice they go somewhere else."   That particular teaching was, was um, paramount, um, with the old Revival Centres.  And it became stronger in Adelaide when John Kuhlmann went over there.

T:         Can you remember the doctrine and what you guys were saved into - the doctrine that you accepted and you know, and then with CRC, was there changes to that?

P:         There was no changes.  Basically, the old Revival Centres used to preach what they called the `One-Two-Three', and unless you had gone through the three steps, which, the third step was being infilled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, you weren't saved.  That was their teaching.  There was no such thing as salvation based upon belief in the Lord Jesus Christ without water baptism and without speaking in tongues.

T:         So that was what?

P:         That was the key doctrine.

T:         What year were you... you were saved into that doctrine?

P:         Yes.

T:         What year, can you remember?

P:         Oh, about Easter `58, at a guess.

A:         Mm.  Just before us.

P:         About Easter `58.  And uh, Len continued to preach that, that doctrine in that method.  And it was reinforced with, when visiting speakers, like Noel Hollins came over here, two or three times over a period of those early years, and he reinforced that particular - that was their specific teaching, the old `One-Two-Three', as we used to term it.  Salvation without the completion of that cycle of events.  Um, it is possible, under their teachings, for a person to be baptized and come out of the water speaking in tongues coming out the water.  Um, and it has happened, and for instance, Shirley, um, oh, Scanlon, um, she was uh, involved in that sort of thing, too.  Anyway, going backwards, digressing a little bit further, during Len Day's time in Port Lincoln, minor works were established in Cummins, uh there was a work established in Cleave by, oh...

A:         That was in Dudley's time, wasn't it?

P:         No, no.  That was established in Len's time, first.

A:         Oh, yeah.

P:         Oh, what's his name?

A:         Rudell?

P:         Oh the, the Swedish bloke.

A:         Eric Guelickson.

P:         Yeah, and um, there was a work established in Whyalla, a work established in Port Augusta, following, um that was a later time when Carol and Ina went up.

A:         Yeah.

T:         Was this all in Revival Centre or CRC at this stage?

P:         It was all Revival Centre at that stage.  Um, house meetings were conducted out at um...

A:         Arno Bay.

P:         Oh, we used to have a lot of assembly get-togethers at Arno Bay, at that time.

A:         That was where we had meetings then.  I thought that was in Dudley's time.

P:         And uh, anyway the, the initial work in Whyalla didn't have a pastor, and it fell to pieces, until a chap from Sydney came down, uh, Les and Shirley Scanlon came down from Sydney.  And they pulled a little work together in Whyalla again, and um, it was the nucleus left from Les and Shirley's work, that was taken over by John Ridley when he went to, when he first went up there.  Some people have often said that John Ridley founded the work in Whyalla.  He didn't.  He had a nucleus of these people from the old CRC work of, of um Les and Shirley Scanlon.

T:         So,  John Ridley, he took over this CRC work, he was Revival Centre, was he?

P:         John Ridley went there as CRC outright, and then took over the work, well what remained of the work that Les and Shirley had.

T:         Who were Revival Centre.

P&A:   Yeah.

T:         Right, and so that, today that Whyalla is now CRC?

P:         Oh yes, it always, it, it became CRC from the time of John Ridley going there.

T:         Right, OK.  Now, the other ones, Port Augusta, etc, are they still going today as Revival Centres?  Did they become CRCs?

P:         No, no they both became CRC too.  Oh, wait on, Carol and Ina still live in Adelaide don't they?

A:         Yeah.

P:         They could get a bit more news about Port Augusta direct from them.  Have you given them the address?

A:         Yes, I can give them that.

P:         Right, I mean, they'd be worth speaking to, because they would see it from their point of view.

T:         Um, OK, now basically, except for Elizabeth, all of the Revival Centre churches that were planted became CRC.  Is that what you're telling me?

P:         Yes.

T:         Right, OK.  Is the Elizabeth Revival Centre still there?

P:         Yes, and it's very large, very large.

T:         John Kuhlmann's in Adelaide now?

P:         Yeah John, John Kuhlmann is in Adelaide, but he still has an extremely strong assembly out at Elizabeth.  From, from the last I heard it was probably as much as two thousand strong out there.

A:         In Elizabeth?

P:         Yeah.

T:         Um, now the CRC never held to the `One-Two-Three'?

P:         No.

T:         So what happened when these churches would take, well when your assembly was taken over by the CRC, or when you came under the covering, I should say, of the CRC?

P:         Well, there were really no changes doctrinally, I mean the point of it is that the, the um, I think that we could use Barry Chant's words:  It wasn't that the doctrines had basically changed, it was the emphasis on particular aspects of the doctrines.  And the emphasis that salvation comes from believing first of all, then the actions of baptism follow believing, and seeking the infilling of the Holy Spirit likewise follows the initial believing.  But salvation can occur with belief.

T:         So what do you say today then to, say a Baptist, who isn't charismatic, not filled with the Holy Spirit?

P:         Uh, the fact that I don't hear a person speak in other tongues does not necessarily mean that person hasn't had some infilling of the Holy Spirit, but doesn't practise it.  I reserve my judgement on those sorts of things, uh, in terms of um, um, well I'll put it this way:  the fact that a person can speak in tongues, um isn't a major criteria in my book any longer.  I mean yes, it's a, it's a beautiful thing and I, I follow it myself, but I don't put that as a prime consideration for salvation.

T:         Now, these other churches they have, the CRC took over their covering, did they have, were there a lot of people that left and went off with John Kuhlmann because of that, or, the majority stayed?

P:         The majority stayed in CRC here, but John Kuhlmann really established his own work in Adelaide.  He didn't really take, but to use the words of another chap from the AOG who used to do the rounds of all the various Adelaide assemblies, and that was surprisingly still acceptable by John Kuhlmann.  Uh, I can't think of this bloke's name, but he came over here once or twice, I think he was a Dutch man, Anne?

A:         Not DeGraaf?

P:         No, it wasn't DeGraaf.

A:         Don't even know who you are talking about.

P:         Anyway, look, I don't think it matters much, the name of the man, but the fact that he told me that by visiting the various Adelaide assemblies, he saw the uh, um, the drift of all the people that moved from assembly to assembly, like every three or four years, he'd go and have a look at all the different assemblies all around Adelaide that he could get into, and he was amazed at the transfer or the drift that occurred between all the major assemblies, even Kuhlmann's assemblies had its drift, but probably a little bit, some of the people got weary of the, the severity of his, of the discipline, because he really had a, a um, very uh, strong outlook and strong view concerning these things.  And some people, when they got their shirt in a knot, no longer tolerated that sort of thing.  Well, I didn't tolerate because I couldn't agree with his doctrine after, you know real consideration, the doctrine of the `One-Two-Three'.

T:         Now, was the AOG guy that came over, was, he was allowed even to preach in the Revival Centre, is that what you're saying?

P:         We didn't have AOG come over here at all.

T:         Didn't you say there was a preacher from the AOG who...

P:         Oh, no, this bloke had been CRC, had gone to AOG, and um, for some reason or other, he was, he still held some degree of credibility with Kuhlmann.  I don't, I don't know why and how, but he, he still got into the, into the Kuhlmann assemblies, and saw the number of people that were, you know on this rotational drift.

A:         Wasn't that Jerry's father, the one you're talking about?  There was a Jerry here, and he was in our assembly, and he...

P:         Jerry, Jerry, now that's, that's right, Jerry...

A:         VanDerGraaf.

P:         That was VanDerGraaf.

A:         Yeah.

P:         That was his father.

A:         Yeah.

P:         That was his father.

A:         Jerry VanDerGraaf.

T:         Spell it.

P:         Last I heard of Jerry, he had a, a very big, um, hardware business out at Elizabeth Bay area somewhere, I haven't seen or heard of him for years.

T:         Now that was the name of this guy, Jerry VanDerGraaf, or was it his father?

P:         No, that was the son.

T:         OK, can you remember the father's name?

P:         Was it Jack?

A:         Yeah, it could well be.

T:         Jack VanDerGraaf.

P:         Jack, and the, and the wife too.  I used to, occasionally, Karen and, oh what's her name?  Karen is the daughter of that family.

A:         Yeah.

P:         And, uh, well they used to come across and see him.  I don't know whether he's still alive or not, `cos I haven't seen them and Karen hasn't, I've seen Karen a lot, but, she's never mentioned Mum and Dad.  I'm wondering if he's still alive.

A:         We were talking about rescuing.  There was a time when we were very unhappy under the CRC yoke, and Dudley in particular, and John Kuhlmann came over several times, thinking he might rescue us, but he realised it wasn't the doctrine we had the argument with, it was more the approach and how everything was implemented.

T:         And what did he do, did he go home in a huff, or...?

A:         No, no.

T:         So why did John go home, why didn't he stay and try and rescue you?

A:         Well, he wasn't here, he came and visited regularly, and he could see no point in continuing that, because it wasn't, we didn't have the arguments with the doctrine, more with the whole CRC approach.  We felt swallowed up, didn't we?

P:         Yes, we did.

A:         At that time.

P:         Actually, um, I went across to see Leo on a couple of occasions, and um, I rather gathered the impression that um, Leo wasn't altogether on side with Dudley concerning Dudley's approach on some things either.  You see Dudley's own personality um, in his own way, he tried to emulate what he thought Leo was doing.  But he, he lacked the people management skills that Leo had to, to bring it to pass.  That's really part of the problem.

T:         And um, sorry, you said to me before when the tape was off about John Kuhlmann going home because he saw there was no point, because you'd now agreed with CRC doctrine?

A:         Yeah.  He thought, he thought that uh...

P:         He might be able to rescue the assembly.

A:         Yeah.  He might rescue us.

P:         As Revival Centre.

T:         Back to his doctrine?

A:         Yeah.  But that, see, that wasn't what we had argument with.  We more had the, the argument with the way people were handled.

P:         Yeah people.

T:         So he went home thinking that, he went back to Elizabeth thinking there was no point helping you.

A:         Yeah, `cos, yeah.

T:         And that was the last contact?

A:         Yeah.

P:         Yeah, that was about the last time that John Kuhlmann ever showed his nose in the Port.

T:         Can you remember what year that was?

A:         Sixties, sometime.

T:         Well `63 was what you had in the book.

A:         Yeah, yeah.  Um.

P:         Late `64 or early `65.  Somewhere in that timeslot.  It's hard to get too specific.

A:         Did you put, did you put on the tape that Phillip was, um Peter wasn't allowed to have communion when he went to Elizabeth?  That's on the tape?

T:         Yep, that's on there.

A:         And you asked a year, and he didn't know that.

P:         Actually at that stage it was, sorry, I, I said that it was, I spoke to John after it, it was Jock Duncan I spoke to afterwards who sorted it out.  But by then I'd got myself, and I'd got my nose in a knot and decided, well I'm not going there again.

A:         No.

P:         But it was actually Jock Duncan who, who I spoke with.

T:         Was that after this guy, after he'd given up, John Kuhlmann had given up on you?

P:         Probably.  `Cos the assembly at that stage in Adelaide uh, had two or three pastors.  Like John was senior pastor and Jock Duncan and a couple of others were in there too.

A:         Mm.

P:         And the, the assembly numbers were probably a hundred plus at that stage.  So I mean it would have been a, a fairly, the beginning of, of John's major work.

A:         Mm.  And what I told you when you interviewed me, me at our place, um, when I was told that I wasn't welcome there, that was when my youngest daughter was fourteen, so that would have been 1972.

T:         1972 you weren't welcome at the Revival Centre in...

A:         Yeah.  I, I came through Elizabeth, I had to take my daughter to have special shoes fitted.  We came through Elizabeth, stayed at Jock, Jock Duncan's mother's place, and then, and went to a meeting, and then the next day Jock came and told me that I wasn't welcome because it created confusion, because the people there were asking "Now, do we have an assembly in Port Lincoln or don't we?"

P:         Well, I, I, at the time I went to that particular meeting, Mum was like, um, I, I, went to Adelaide and witnessed to Mum early in the piece, and she maintained her contact, and when, when she moved out to Elizabeth, she continued in fellowship with John Kuhlmann's assembly, up until the time that I got refused communion, then she decided she wasn't going there either.

T:         So how many churches left the Revival Centre covering and went under the CRC covering, and can you remember from what period, time period...

P:         Well actually, it really started with Geelong, I mean Geelong was the first.  When, when the major split occurred, and uh, the board of elders was left in charge of Geelong...

P:         Could be, it could be, but look, I can't remember clearly.  But, he was probably the senior man amongst the board of elders at Geelong at the time.  And um, although I don't know the timing of it, that original Geelong assembly under the board of elders, became a CRC affiliate.  As far as I know, the CRC work in Geelong was that work.

T:         That broke away from Noel...

A:         It wasn't, it wasn't Belmont that you're talking about?

T:         Belmont Crusade Centre?

A:         `Cos Len was really at Belmont, wasn't he?  Was it Belmont or was it Geelong?

P:         I think it was Geelong, Anne.

A:         Because Dudley is at Belmont.

P:         No, I think it was Geelong.  It's probably the subject of a bit of investigation on that point.

T:         How many assemblies from this area, from the peninsula, Port Augusta, Port Lincoln, etc, left the Revival Centre and became part of the Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         Well, I don't think Port Augusta really left the Christian Revival Crusade, as much as um, see it was when Carol and Ina went to Port Augusta.  They were CRC at the time they went there, so that the work that was, although there are a couple of contacts in Port Augusta, in Len Day's day, there were no, no residual meetings.  And when Carol and Ina decided to go to Port Augusta, they'd picked up on these couple of contacts, but they'd, by that time they were CRC anyway.  So, I mean...

A:         Well, that, you mix me up in that, because when they went west, they were definitely Revival Centre, that was before we joined the CRC that they went west.

P:         Yeah but didn't, didn't they, when they went, didn't they join the Foursquare Gospel when they were over there in the West?

A:         They were not there for very long, I don't think.

P:         Mm.  No, but they were the first to come back I think.

A:         Yeah.  But, so...

P:         Look, I think the best thing you can do is to contact Carol and Ina, because their memories concerning those things will be far clearer than ours, because it affected them.

T:         OK, what are their names?

T:         Carol and Ina.  I'll fix it up.

P:         Uh, they'll, they'll remember that era, you know, quite clearly.

A:         Better than us, yeah.

P:         And as far as I know, what's his name, um, Eric Guelickson is still alive somewhere down in the Second Valley area.

A:         Yeah, yeah, yeah.

T:         And where's Eric Guelickson from?  Where was he from?

P:         He was originally one of the earlier converts here in this assembly.  And he eventually went to Adelaide, as CRC, then he went, they had uh, some strong house meetings down in the Second Valley area down near where he was living, Normanville, Second Valley.  That's the area where he, somewhere in that area.  He'd be quite an old man by now, too.  Well in his seventies.

T:         So the other churches weren't really assemblies, they were just pockets of people, so really there was only one assembly, and that went under the covering of Revival Crusade, from the Revival Centre, which was you people?

A:         The other way around.  Because we were Revival Centre, and became Revival Crusade.  Right?

P:         The work of Whyalla, uh, was quite strongly established in Les and Shirley's time.  Now they had quite a good attendance up there, but I don't know what happened, I don't remember now, but eventually, that work diminished to the point when Ridley went there, there was, there was probably little better than house meetings or, you know, strong house meetings.

A:         There is a woman that I met and I don't know her name, but I met her when I went to this last weekend, and she remembers all that.  Um, we can ask John, he comes over in a couple of weeks.

P:         Well John Ridley's coming soon, he is.

T:         Is he?

A:         Yeah, yeah.

P:         Yes, he'll be over here very soon.  He'll remember, like, their part of it, but you see, John, John always, or Elizabeth always used to claim they started the C... well they did, they started the CRC.

A:         They did, yeah.

P:         But, there was a residue of families left over from this other earlier work.

A:         Yeah.

T:         Can I get you to give John Ridley my card?

(BREAK)

P:         Yeah, John Kirkwood.  Well um, anyway, Athol Day went there first of all, but he...

T:         That was Len's brother, was it?

P:         That was Len's brother.  This was very early in the piece.  And he went on up to Sydney, and um, um, he had quite an active little work around the, um, some zones of Sydney, probably twenty or thirty people there within a, quite a short period of time.  That's where Les and Shirley Scanlon got saved.  In fact I was present the night that, um, it was in their flat, it was in their flat that I saw the first baptism in the miniature bath.  They pick them up and ran them through this miniature bathtub like a roll of film.  You've never seen anything quite like it in you life!

A:         We did a lot of that.

P:         Oh, gosh.  But we had a lot in common with Les and Shirley in the early days because, because of Athol Day.  You see, in around about 1959, I went up to Sydney, New South Wales, I was working up there for about three or four months.  And they used to call down through Sydney about every three weekends, every third weekend.  And because of Len, he said "Oh, look, look brother Athol up."  So I went and looked Athol Day up, and Athol Day introduced me to his little assembly and I became virtually a part of that little CR... uh Revival Centre assembly in Sydney at that time.  And um, um, oh, who also was there?  There was another young bloke up in that assembly.

T:         What can you tell me about Jack Clay?  Can you remember much about him?

P:         Not at lot, except...

P:         This is Peter Corston, reminiscing about the beginnings of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Um, Len Day first went to Ceduna because of a lady in the Geelong assembly of the Christian Revival Crusade at the time, a Mrs McConarchy, who's sister was a lady we affectionately know as Auntie Bob or Mrs, Mrs Wordman.  And so Len, went to Ceduna with the purpose of through Auntie Bob, um, seeing where the Lord led him.  And it did lead to the formation of an assembly there.  They had their own little, uh, meeting hall, but the um, early converts were mostly people from the Method..., the old Methodist church, and they run in..., ran into considerable opposition in the community, because the community was very parochial in those days.  So much so, that um, some of the tradespeople refused to serve the Days, and it broke their hearts.

T:         Were they, they were still CRC then?  Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         Um, Revival Centres - they were not Christian Revival Crusade for quite some time to come.  As I, as I started my comment, this is the beginning of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Prior to this time, there were several people who corresponded uh, with Leo Harris and received what publications Leo Harris was putting out at that time.  But there was no actual working Pentecostal assembly uh, prior to Len Day coming here and establishing the one at Ceduna.

T:         Did Len Day ever speak to you about the early days when he was part of Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         In Geelong?

T:         Mm.

P:         Well, um, Len had um, a very chequered career in the beginning.  He, he was um, very extroverted person and he'd try anything once.  And um, following a um, a nasty car accident, one of his friends came to witness to him.  And during the long recuperation period he read the Word and these people came along and spoke to him and ministered to him, ministered the Word to him, `til eventually after about three years in the Geelong assembly, this is about the period of time that Len came to the West Coast.

T:         Can you remember what year he got saved?

P:         No, but by deduction it was probably around `55, because he came to the West Coast in, in roughly `58.

T:         Did he ever speak to you about the leaving of the, the Revival Centres leaving the Crusade?  Did he ever tell you anything about that?

P:         Um, the Revival Centres as such, never really, uh well I'll, I'll lead into that.  Um, anyway, Len, following this considerable persecution and in, in Ceduna, where tradespeople, you know, refused to serve them and people actually abused them in the streets.  Um, it broke Joan's heart - this is, this was his wife at that time.  So they moved down to Port Lincoln and they put out a fleece, in a sense, that um, he didn't have a job to come to - he had nothing to come to - so the first place he went to for a job, he put the fleece out, he said "If these people will listen to the, listen to my witnessing and give me a job, then we'll establish in Port Lincoln.  And this is what happened, he spoke to the Blacker family and the Blacker family became the first converts uh, in Port Lincoln.

T:         Blacker.  B-L-A-C-K-E-R?

P:         Yep.  Um, prior to this though, there was quite a strong little assembly - even with the persecutions - left in Ceduna, with John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Auntie Bob and, um, uh several others up there at that time.

A:   John Kuhlmann?

P:         Kuhlmanns?  Oh, yes.  John Kuhlmann, particularly `cos he went on to become the, the Australian leader of Revival Centres almost, outside of Victoria.  And still, I think he still maintains leadership of probably the most, the biggest assemblies in Australia.  Um, he was orig... one of the original Methodist converts to Pentecost from that work of Len Day.

A:         Lutheran.

P:         Hm?

A:         Lutheran, he was.

P:         Lutheran.  Oh yeah.  Probably.  Yeah, you're right.

A:         `Cos he's German.  

P:         Yeah, I forgot that.  But anyway, he suffered, um, um, he, the, the Kuhlmann family farm was a very prosperous family farm and a very large one, and John turned his back on the, on the prosperity of the farm and, and chose to follow the, uh the pathways of the Lord as he saw them at that time.  Now when Len Day came down to Port Lincoln, an assembly was established down here.  By the time I came into the assembly, there were about a dozen people in it.

A:         Yeah.

P:         I don't remember exactly who they were, but I can remember Garth and Mary.

A:         Yeah.

P:         And the Levermaggis and a few others.  Uh, uh, without trying to get too specific, but I can remem...

A:         Webb.

P:         Mm?

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

P:         Oh yes, yeah, all of them. But...

T:         Who was that?

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

T:         Webb?

A:         Yeah.

T:         W-E-B-B, Webb.

A:         Yeah.

P:         Anyway, there was approximately a dozen people in the assembly at the time that I was saved.  At that time they were having little house prayer meetings in, in a house adjacent to Blacker Motors at the time, plus other house meetings in various homes around the town.  And this was the format that, uh, the assembly was established on.  Within um, three years of Len coming down here, there was a residue of about sixty people in the assembly and Len claimed at that time that he'd, he'd witnessed to, and about a hundred people had actually been baptized, but some hadn't continued at that time.  Anyway, Len said that his work was that of a bulldozer.  Uh, he came and, and ruckshot over lots of things, and then he left the, the work of consolidating assemblies and this type of thing to other people, to other pastors.  The system at that time was, was a system of inheritance.  The, Len since he was a foundation pastor, nominated John Borden to run the assembly.  And that's, that's the way it was in those days.  So John Borden, uh, was one of the original Ceduna converts - he came down from Ceduna to take this task on.  He had been leader of, co-leader of the work in Ceduna.

T:         And that slowly closed down did it?  As they all moved here.

P:         It slowly closed down as many, many of them moved away.

A:         And came here.

P:         A lot of them came down here, including the Fergusons and Auntie Bob and quite a few others, they came down here.  Anyway, um...

T:         These people are all gone now, or...?

P:         Most of them are dead.

A:         They are older - much older than us.

T:         Right.

P:         Most of them are dead.  And, uh...

T:         Sorry, before you go on, would there be anyone that was there at the conception of the assembly?

P:         Yes.  The only one I can think of there would be Phillip Jones.

A:         And John Kuhlmann.

P:         And John Kuhlmann.  And John Borden.

A:         And John Borden.

P:         If you want to contact him, he's in Ipswich, Queensland.

T:         Phillip Jones...

P:         Phillip Jones who is pastoring a small Pentecostal work down, not far from the, um...

A:         Bethesda.

P:         No, no, much further out than that.  Um, uh, I can't think of the name of the suburb he's in.  It was an old, oh, what do they call them...

T:         Is he CRC, independent?

P:         No, no he broke away.

A:         He's the one that's Apostolic.

P:         That's the word I'm trying to think of.

A:         That I told you about.

P:         Yeah, he's pastoring a, a work down there, and last time I went to that particular assembly, he had in attendance about sixty odd people there - it was quite, quite a good atmosphere, very nice little church.

T:         John Kuhlmann, Phillip Jones and...

P:         John Borden.

T:         Now where's John Borden?

P:         John Borden...

A:         Ipswich.

P:         ...is in Ipswich Queensland.  Karagaroo Road, Ipwswich, Queensland.

T:         Can you spell Karagaroo Road, please?

P:         I can try.  K-A-R-A-G-O-O, or something like that.

T:         Karagaroo Road.

P:         Yes, it's a funny word.

T:         It's alright, I'll ring up the 013.  Anyway, sorry about that, I just need to...

P:         Yeah now, John, John was really the first leader of that small assembly after Len Day departed - he was co-leader in conjunction with, with um, Phillip Jones and, and John Kuhlmann.  When John Borden came down here, it left John Kuhlmann as senior, um, pastor at Ceduna, for the time being.  Anyway, um, eventually Len decided to move on, he had a, a um, desire to witness up among the Pacific Islands, and so to fulfil that he built a boat and tried to get up there.

A:         Broken Hill.

P:         Oh, he went to Broken Hill first, I forgot.  Anyway, uh, the assembly down here at that time, uh, John Borden became the senior pastor and eventually some of these other families migrated down from Ceduna during that period of time.  I don't remember the numbers and attendances, uh, from that period of time, but after John had been the, uh, minister here for probably a year or so, um, several families decided - John had a sister over in Western Australia, and there was a couple of Dutch families and John - decided to migrate to Western Australia.  John in order to, um, witness to his sister, and, uh the Dutch people, I don't quite know what their, you know, special intention was, but basically to try and establish a work.

A:         Mm.

P:         So, over they went.  During this period of time here, um, Phillip Jones had migrated down here by this time, and he was the, became the senior pastor by this process of nomination, after the period, uh of time.  Then after Phillip had been this senior pastor for a while, things started to go wrong within the assembly, from time to time, and um, um, they progressively got worse.

T:         Like, such as what?  What would they do that would go wrong?

P:         Well, the usual things that, that you find that break up an assembly - bickerings behind the pastor's back, roast pastor for Sunday lunch - all those sorts of things that really don't go well.  And um, Phillip couldn't handle it, didn't know the answers to it.  Anyway, in desperation, somebody contacted Len Day - who was at that time, uh, had returned to the Geelong assembly - and asked Len to come over here and try and sort out the mess.  Well um, Len got in touch with John Borden, and virtually ordered John Borden to come back from Western Australia to sort the mess out.  So duly John Borden came back, started to sort the mess out, and a few months after this Len Day arrived on the scene with the news that there'd been a major split in the old Revival Centre in Geelong, and that the current administration over there, uh, was a system of, of a board of elders, without one...  Right, one person may have been nominated senior pastor, but the board of elders really had a, a control over, of the assembly.  And Len tried to establish this system here in Port Lincoln.  Um, the first uh, group was John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Rodney Blacker and myself, representing the, the so-called board of elders of that original assembly.  Anyway, after a while, about a year, John turned around and said "Look, I'm not pastor material.  I don't want to pastor the church."  So, to get out of it, I'm not sure, I think he went across to Adelaide... did he go across to Bible School at that time, or did he go photographing?

A:         After he went to Adelaide.  After, uh because, once we were CRC, that's when he went to Bible School.

P:         Oh, that's right.  Anyway, following John's announcement that he wasn't pastor material, the elders and the church as a whole all had a special meeting.  And um, it was decided to send a delegation consisting of Phillip Jones and John Borden - I don't know whether there was a third one.

A:         I thought you went too actually.

P:         No I didn't.

A:         You didn't go to Leo Harris.

P:         No I, I stayed and looked after things while the others went.  That was the first time I've sort of been left on my own.  Anyway, uh, they went to Adelaide, and they contacted various major Pentecostal works with a view towards providing ministry for us, and each of them, for some reason or other, rejected it.  The, the consensus of opinion at the time was that AOG represented our best bet.  Anyway, AOG were unwilling to um, consider asking a pastor to come here at that time.  But Leo Harris was willing to come across and talk to us about this, this move.

T:         OK, before you go any further, why did, why didn't you want to stay with the Revival Centres any more?

P:         Pastor...  Well, the pastoral inheritance system broke down on us from the time that the board of elders was created, and so we had no pastor - when John decided he wasn't, no longer wanted to be the senior man on the board of elders, we had no-one at that stage - Phillip Jones didn't want to take leadership - I was, I was incapable of it, oh well I thought I was anyway, at that time.  And so it went down that Rodney had no intention of it whatsoever.  So, that's the reason why we sent the delegation to Adelaide, to find if we could find ministry.

T:         Did Len Day, was he approached to come back?  Was Geelong Revival Centre approached at all?

P:         Uh, by this time, Len had got himself up to the islands, I think.  He was not, not available by this stage - this is a, a year or two after the, you know, the establishment of the things I spoke about.  But um, anyway, the delegation came back and duly Leo Harris came over here and spoke to the residue of the assembly.  At that stage it had dropped down to perhaps twenty, thirty people - I don't remember the exact number, but it had dwindled considerably from the sixty odd it had been.  And this dwindling had been, you know, a slow and progressive fall.  And uh, duly, after Leo Harris' visit here, I personally went to Adelaide at one stage there, and I spent a day following Leo Harris around like a puppy dog.  And wherever Leo went, Pete went.  Anyway, following, following these sort of things, um, Dudley Cooper was approached, because Dudley Cooper had been in, in the work at Port Adelaide, or Rosewood or whatever it was at the time, and had a bit of a nervous breakdown.  And well, following his recovery from the nervous breakdown, um, he came across here to Port Lincoln and um, uh, following all the inauguration and all that went with it, we became a CRC assembly by, by vote of the people, on the, on the recommendation of, of the elders who, you know including myself at that time.

T:         Was there any attempt by the Revival Centres to keep you as a Revival Centre?

P:         No.

T:         None at all?

P:         None at all.

T:         They just cut you off?

P:         They cut us off because we, according to their teachings at the time, "My sheep hear my voice and follow my lead," uh, this was so strong a feeling that at one time my wife and myself - my mother used to live at Elizabeth, Elizabeth Vale - and Kuhlmann had quite a strong assembly at Elizabeth area at the time, so we went along because of these old ties.  And um, anyway um, the uh, stewards administering the uh, communion elements refused to serve us.  And, I thought "Well, what's going on here?"  So um, I spoke afterwards to Kuhlmann about it, and it was properly amended to the point that we were an exception.  I, I think that from then onwards I severed my ties with the Revival Centres.  That was, that was too much to swallow.

T:         Was there any um, yeah but was there any, there was no attempt at the time when you were looking for a new pastor, for them to help you out?

P:         No, none whatsoever.

T:         Kuhlmann didn't want to help you out?

P:         No.  Oh...

A:         Well, Kuhlmann at that time wasn't prominent yet, was he?

P:         No, he was, he wasn't prominent, he was still a struggling young pastor with, um, you know, working, working through house meetings and hall meetings.  At the time of this refusal to communion elements they had an assembly there of probably a hundred at that time.  This was um, a fair bit later down the line.

T:         Can you remember what the year, date, roughly it was that you went and visited Kuhlmann's assembly and they refused you the communion?

P:         Oh, gosh, no.  But it must have been in the early sixties.

T:         And can you remember the date when you became a CRC?

P:         Um, no, but it was approximately a year, it was approximately two years before the hall was built, and there's, there's a commemoration plaque on the, on the hall.

A:         You were there.

P:         That was the official opening of the hall, but our uh, CRC affiliation was probably eighteen months before that, at least - maybe two years before it.

T:         OK.  I'll work that one out later.

P:         Uh-huh.  It's pretty vague.  But the past, the Geelong assemblies at that time were very strong, in fact it was probably the centre of um, see Leo Harris and Tommy Foster had an agreement that Leo would go to South Australia, and Tommy Foster would continue in Victoria.  Well Tommy Foster did continue in Victoria, and fathered quite a few of those early pastors, like Noel Hollins, Jack Clay, quite a few of these other people grew up, then they, went away from Tom Foster, and began their own work called the Revival Centres.

T:         Can you remember why Tommy Foster...  Now you told me the National Revival Crusade, Tom Foster actually left that, did he?

P:         No, I think he remained with that until it, you know, suffered a name change in, in future times.  Um, or an upgrading, just as the Christian Revival Crusade was originally the Commonwealth Revival Crusade, then it, you know, upgraded the names of the thing because Commonwealth was no acceptable.

T:         Did Len Day or anyone ever tell you, or can you remember any reasons given why the Revival Centres left the Revival Crusade?  Whatever `Revival Crusade' they were at that time.

P:The Revival Centres, um, I think that Noel Hollins and company were very strong-minded people, and they preferred to be individualistic and to work on their own.  And this is why, why they seemed to develop, um around the Geelong area.  Um, for instance Jack Clay was ministering a little bit south of Geelong, and Noel Hollins and, and um, uh the other bloke...

T:         Lloyd Longfield?

P:         Lloyd Longfield were, were co-pastors in, in the very strong assembly, then they divided and had two assemblies.  But, I don't remember whether the division was by agreement or whether, or disagreement - that, that's beyond my knowledge.

T:         Was Lloyd, Lloyd and Noel, were they co-pastoring Geelong or Melbourne?

P:         Geelong.

T:Geelong.

P:         Uh-huh.

T:         OK, `cos Lloyd moved to Melbourne at some stage, I'll have to work all that out.

P:         I, I don't remember the timing of that very, in fact I don't remember the timing of most of the events I've spoken about, because I didn't attach a great deal of importance to it.  But um, I think that's about the early history, then over here in Port Lincoln of course, we, the history since becoming a CRC assembly was fairly well documented by the early pastors, in forms of notebooks and, and minutes and things like this which you could glean quite a lot from.  Those records, uh, were in the church, oh back here a few years ago when John Ashfield was pastoring the work here, uh, I was administer, uh, well, I was in charge of administration and business at the time.  And, uh those books were in my care at the time, but I haven't seen them since those days, nor have I had any particular reason to dig them, try and dig them out or refer to them.  But um, they did contain a lot of early records, they did contain a lot of personal information which was handed down from pastor to pastor about people in the assembly.  But um, if you had your name on the black book, sort of thing, the incoming pastor read the black book and you still were in the black book.  It was a great system!

T:         Tell me, can you remember what, roughly about when they stopped you from receive... like when you went to visit Kuhlmann's assembly in Elizabeth?

P:         Uh-huh.

T:         What, can you remember when that was?  `Cos that's an interesting point, because they do that nowadays.

P:         Oh, yes.

T:         It would be interesting to know when they...

P:         Well, um, Mum was still living in Elizabeth then, and that was probably eighteen years ago, so I'd reckon it would be close on twenty years ago.  Without being too specific, but twenty years ago.  But even...

T:         1973?

P:         It was probably earlier than that.  But, um their doctrine of "My sheep hear my voice and follow my leading and teaching, and if they don't hear my voice they go somewhere else."   That particular teaching was, was um, paramount, um, with the old Revival Centres.  And it became stronger in Adelaide when John Kuhlmann went over there.

T:         Can you remember the doctrine and what you guys were saved into - the doctrine that you accepted and you know, and then with CRC, was there changes to that?

P:         There was no changes.  Basically, the old Revival Centres used to preach what they called the `One-Two-Three', and unless you had gone through the three steps, which, the third step was being infilled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, you weren't saved.  That was their teaching.  There was no such thing as salvation based upon belief in the Lord Jesus Christ without water baptism and without speaking in tongues.

T:         So that was what?

P:         That was the key doctrine.

T:         What year were you... you were saved into that doctrine?

P:         Yes.

T:         What year, can you remember?

P:         Oh, about Easter `58, at a guess.

A:         Mm.  Just before us.

P:         About Easter `58.  And uh, Len continued to preach that, that doctrine in that method.  And it was reinforced with, when visiting speakers, like Noel Hollins came over here, two or three times over a period of those early years, and he reinforced that particular - that was their specific teaching, the old `One-Two-Three', as we used to term it.  Salvation without the completion of that cycle of events.  Um, it is possible, under their teachings, for a person to be baptized and come out of the water speaking in tongues coming out the water.  Um, and it has happened, and for instance, Shirley, um, oh, Scanlon, um, she was uh, involved in that sort of thing, too.  Anyway, going backwards, digressing a little bit further, during Len Day's time in Port Lincoln, minor works were established in Cummins, uh there was a work established in Cleave by, oh...

A:         That was in Dudley's time, wasn't it?

P:         No, no.  That was established in Len's time, first.

A:         Oh, yeah.

P:         Oh, what's his name?

A:         Rudell?

P:         Oh the, the Swedish bloke.

A:         Eric Guelickson.

P:         Yeah, and um, there was a work established in Whyalla, a work established in Port Augusta, following, um that was a later time when Carol and Ina went up.

A:         Yeah.

T:         Was this all in Revival Centre or CRC at this stage?

P:         It was all Revival Centre at that stage.  Um, house meetings were conducted out at um...

A:         Arno Bay.

P:         Oh, we used to have a lot of assembly get-togethers at Arno Bay, at that time.

A:         That was where we had meetings then.  I thought that was in Dudley's time.

P:         And uh, anyway the, the initial work in Whyalla didn't have a pastor, and it fell to pieces, until a chap from Sydney came down, uh, Les and Shirley Scanlon came down from Sydney.  And they pulled a little work together in Whyalla again, and um, it was the nucleus left from Les and Shirley's work, that was taken over by John Ridley when he went to, when he first went up there.  Some people have often said that John Ridley founded the work in Whyalla.  He didn't.  He had a nucleus of these people from the old CRC work of, of um Les and Shirley Scanlon.

T:         So,  John Ridley, he took over this CRC work, he was Revival Centre, was he?

P:         John Ridley went there as CRC outright, and then took over the work, well what remained of the work that Les and Shirley had.

T:         Who were Revival Centre.

P&A:   Yeah.

T:         Right, and so that, today that Whyalla is now CRC?

P:         Oh yes, it always, it, it became CRC from the time of John Ridley going there.

T:         Right, OK.  Now, the other ones, Port Augusta, etc, are they still going today as Revival Centres?  Did they become CRCs?

P:         No, no they both became CRC too.  Oh, wait on, Carol and Ina still live in Adelaide don't they?

A:         Yeah.

P:         They could get a bit more news about Port Augusta direct from them.  Have you given them the address?

A:         Yes, I can give them that.

P:         Right, I mean, they'd be worth speaking to, because they would see it from their point of view.

T:         Um, OK, now basically, except for Elizabeth, all of the Revival Centre churches that were planted became CRC.  Is that what you're telling me?

P:         Yes.

T:         Right, OK.  Is the Elizabeth Revival Centre still there?

P:         Yes, and it's very large, very large.

T:         John Kuhlmann's in Adelaide now?

P:         Yeah John, John Kuhlmann is in Adelaide, but he still has an extremely strong assembly out at Elizabeth.  From, from the last I heard it was probably as much as two thousand strong out there.

A:         In Elizabeth?

P:         Yeah.

T:         Um, now the CRC never held to the `One-Two-Three'?

P:         No.

T:         So what happened when these churches would take, well when your assembly was taken over by the CRC, or when you came under the covering, I should say, of the CRC?

P:         Well, there were really no changes doctrinally, I mean the point of it is that the, the um, I think that we could use Barry Chant's words:  It wasn't that the doctrines had basically changed, it was the emphasis on particular aspects of the doctrines.  And the emphasis that salvation comes from believing first of all, then the actions of baptism follow believing, and seeking the infilling of the Holy Spirit likewise follows the initial believing.  But salvation can occur with belief.

T:         So what do you say today then to, say a Baptist, who isn't charismatic, not filled with the Holy Spirit?

P:         Uh, the fact that I don't hear a person speak in other tongues does not necessarily mean that person hasn't had some infilling of the Holy Spirit, but doesn't practise it.  I reserve my judgement on those sorts of things, uh, in terms of um, um, well I'll put it this way:  the fact that a person can speak in tongues, um isn't a major criteria in my book any longer.  I mean yes, it's a, it's a beautiful thing and I, I follow it myself, but I don't put that as a prime consideration for salvation.

T:         Now, these other churches they have, the CRC took over their covering, did they have, were there a lot of people that left and went off with John Kuhlmann because of that, or, the majority stayed?

P:         The majority stayed in CRC here, but John Kuhlmann really established his own work in Adelaide.  He didn't really take, but to use the words of another chap from the AOG who used to do the rounds of all the various Adelaide assemblies, and that was surprisingly still acceptable by John Kuhlmann.  Uh, I can't think of this bloke's name, but he came over here once or twice, I think he was a Dutch man, Anne?

A:         Not DeGraaf?

P:         No, it wasn't DeGraaf.

A:         Don't even know who you are talking about.

P:         Anyway, look, I don't think it matters much, the name of the man, but the fact that he told me that by visiting the various Adelaide assemblies, he saw the uh, um, the drift of all the people that moved from assembly to assembly, like every three or four years, he'd go and have a look at all the different assemblies all around Adelaide that he could get into, and he was amazed at the transfer or the drift that occurred between all the major assemblies, even Kuhlmann's assemblies had its drift, but probably a little bit, some of the people got weary of the, the severity of his, of the discipline, because he really had a, a um, very uh, strong outlook and strong view concerning these things.  And some people, when they got their shirt in a knot, no longer tolerated that sort of thing.  Well, I didn't tolerate because I couldn't agree with his doctrine after, you know real consideration, the doctrine of the `One-Two-Three'.

T:         Now, was the AOG guy that came over, was, he was allowed even to preach in the Revival Centre, is that what you're saying?

P:         We didn't have AOG come over here at all.

T:         Didn't you say there was a preacher from the AOG who...

P:         Oh, no, this bloke had been CRC, had gone to AOG, and um, for some reason or other, he was, he still held some degree of credibility with Kuhlmann.  I don't, I don't know why and how, but he, he still got into the, into the Kuhlmann assemblies, and saw the number of people that were, you know on this rotational drift.

A:         Wasn't that Jerry's father, the one you're talking about?  There was a Jerry here, and he was in our assembly, and he...

P:         Jerry, Jerry, now that's, that's right, Jerry...

A:         VanDerGraaf.

P:         That was VanDerGraaf.

A:         Yeah.

P:         That was his father.

A:         Yeah.

P:         That was his father.

A:         Jerry VanDerGraaf.

T:         Spell it.

P:         Last I heard of Jerry, he had a, a very big, um, hardware business out at Elizabeth Bay area somewhere, I haven't seen or heard of him for years.

T:         Now that was the name of this guy, Jerry VanDerGraaf, or was it his father?

P:         No, that was the son.

T:         OK, can you remember the father's name?

P:         Was it Jack?

A:         Yeah, it could well be.

T:         Jack VanDerGraaf.

P:         Jack, and the, and the wife too.  I used to, occasionally, Karen and, oh what's her name?  Karen is the daughter of that family.

A:         Yeah.

P:         And, uh, well they used to come across and see him.  I don't know whether he's still alive or not, `cos I haven't seen them and Karen hasn't, I've seen Karen a lot, but, she's never mentioned Mum and Dad.  I'm wondering if he's still alive.

A:         We were talking about rescuing.  There was a time when we were very unhappy under the CRC yoke, and Dudley in particular, and John Kuhlmann came over several times, thinking he might rescue us, but he realised it wasn't the doctrine we had the argument with, it was more the approach and how everything was implemented.

T:         And what did he do, did he go home in a huff, or...?

A:         No, no.

T:         So why did John go home, why didn't he stay and try and rescue you?

A:         Well, he wasn't here, he came and visited regularly, and he could see no point in continuing that, because it wasn't, we didn't have the arguments with the doctrine, more with the whole CRC approach.  We felt swallowed up, didn't we?

P:         Yes, we did.

A:         At that time.

P:         Actually, um, I went across to see Leo on a couple of occasions, and um, I rather gathered the impression that um, Leo wasn't altogether on side with Dudley concerning Dudley's approach on some things either.  You see Dudley's own personality um, in his own way, he tried to emulate what he thought Leo was doing.  But he, he lacked the people management skills that Leo had to, to bring it to pass.  That's really part of the problem.

T:         And um, sorry, you said to me before when the tape was off about John Kuhlmann going home because he saw there was no point, because you'd now agreed with CRC doctrine?

A:         Yeah.  He thought, he thought that uh...

P:         He might be able to rescue the assembly.

A:         Yeah.  He might rescue us.

P:         As Revival Centre.

T:         Back to his doctrine?

A:         Yeah.  But that, see, that wasn't what we had argument with.  We more had the, the argument with the way people were handled.

P:         Yeah people.

T:         So he went home thinking that, he went back to Elizabeth thinking there was no point helping you.

A:         Yeah, `cos, yeah.

T:         And that was the last contact?

A:         Yeah.

P:         Yeah, that was about the last time that John Kuhlmann ever showed his nose in the Port.

T:         Can you remember what year that was?

A:         Sixties, sometime.

T:         Well `63 was what you had in the book.

A:         Yeah, yeah.  Um.

P:         Late `64 or early `65.  Somewhere in that timeslot.  It's hard to get too specific.

A:         Did you put, did you put on the tape that Phillip was, um Peter wasn't allowed to have communion when he went to Elizabeth?  That's on the tape?

T:         Yep, that's on there.

A:         And you asked a year, and he didn't know that.

P:         Actually at that stage it was, sorry, I, I said that it was, I spoke to John after it, it was Jock Duncan I spoke to afterwards who sorted it out.  But by then I'd got myself, and I'd got my nose in a knot and decided, well I'm not going there again.

A:         No.

P:         But it was actually Jock Duncan who, who I spoke with.

T:         Was that after this guy, after he'd given up, John Kuhlmann had given up on you?

P:         Probably.  `Cos the assembly at that stage in Adelaide uh, had two or three pastors.  Like John was senior pastor and Jock Duncan and a couple of others were in there too.

A:         Mm.

P:         And the, the assembly numbers were probably a hundred plus at that stage.  So I mean it would have been a, a fairly, the beginning of, of John's major work.

A:         Mm.  And what I told you when you interviewed me, me at our place, um, when I was told that I wasn't welcome there, that was when my youngest daughter was fourteen, so that would have been 1972.

T:         1972 you weren't welcome at the Revival Centre in...

A:         Yeah.  I, I came through Elizabeth, I had to take my daughter to have special shoes fitted.  We came through Elizabeth, stayed at Jock, Jock Duncan's mother's place, and then, and went to a meeting, and then the next day Jock came and told me that I wasn't welcome because it created confusion, because the people there were asking "Now, do we have an assembly in Port Lincoln or don't we?"

P:         Well, I, I, at the time I went to that particular meeting, Mum was like, um, I, I, went to Adelaide and witnessed to Mum early in the piece, and she maintained her contact, and when, when she moved out to Elizabeth, she continued in fellowship with John Kuhlmann's assembly, up until the time that I got refused communion, then she decided she wasn't going there either.

T:         So how many churches left the Revival Centre covering and went under the CRC covering, and can you remember from what period, time period...

P:         Well actually, it really started with Geelong, I mean Geelong was the first.  When, when the major split occurred, and uh, the board of elders was left in charge of Geelong...

P:         Could be, it could be, but look, I can't remember clearly.  But, he was probably the senior man amongst the board of elders at Geelong at the time.  And um, although I don't know the timing of it, that original Geelong assembly under the board of elders, became a CRC affiliate.  As far as I know, the CRC work in Geelong was that work.

T:         That broke away from Noel...

A:         It wasn't, it wasn't Belmont that you're talking about?

T:         Belmont Crusade Centre?

A:         `Cos Len was really at Belmont, wasn't he?  Was it Belmont or was it Geelong?

P:         I think it was Geelong, Anne.

A:         Because Dudley is at Belmont.

P:         No, I think it was Geelong.  It's probably the subject of a bit of investigation on that point.

T:         How many assemblies from this area, from the peninsula, Port Augusta, Port Lincoln, etc, left the Revival Centre and became part of the Christian Revival Crusade?

P:         Well, I don't think Port Augusta really left the Christian Revival Crusade, as much as um, see it was when Carol and Ina went to Port Augusta.  They were CRC at the time they went there, so that the work that was, although there are a couple of contacts in Port Augusta, in Len Day's day, there were no, no residual meetings.  And when Carol and Ina decided to go to Port Augusta, they'd picked up on these couple of contacts, but they'd, by that time they were CRC anyway.  So, I mean...

A:         Well, that, you mix me up in that, because when they went west, they were definitely Revival Centre, that was before we joined the CRC that they went west.

P:         Yeah but didn't, didn't they, when they went, didn't they join the Foursquare Gospel when they were over there in the West?

A:         They were not there for very long, I don't think.

P:         Mm.  No, but they were the first to come back I think.

A:         Yeah.  But, so...

P:         Look, I think the best thing you can do is to contact Carol and Ina, because their memories concerning those things will be far clearer than ours, because it affected them.

T:         OK, what are their names?

T:         Carol and Ina.  I'll fix it up.

P:         Uh, they'll, they'll remember that era, you know, quite clearly.

A:         Better than us, yeah.

P:         And as far as I know, what's his name, um, Eric Guelickson is still alive somewhere down in the Second Valley area.

A:         Yeah, yeah, yeah.

T:         And where's Eric Guelickson from?  Where was he from?

P:         He was originally one of the earlier converts here in this assembly.  And he eventually went to Adelaide, as CRC, then he went, they had uh, some strong house meetings down in the Second Valley area down near where he was living, Normanville, Second Valley.  That's the area where he, somewhere in that area.  He'd be quite an old man by now, too.  Well in his seventies.

T:         So the other churches weren't really assemblies, they were just pockets of people, so really there was only one assembly, and that went under the covering of Revival Crusade, from the Revival Centre, which was you people?

A:         The other way around.  Because we were Revival Centre, and became Revival Crusade.  Right?

P:         The work of Whyalla, uh, was quite strongly established in Les and Shirley's time.  Now they had quite a good attendance up there, but I don't know what happened, I don't remember now, but eventually, that work diminished to the point when Ridley went there, there was, there was probably little better than house meetings or, you know, strong house meetings.

A:         There is a woman that I met and I don't know her name, but I met her when I went to this last weekend, and she remembers all that.  Um, we can ask John, he comes over in a couple of weeks.

P:         Well John Ridley's coming soon, he is.

T:         Is he?

A:         Yeah, yeah.

P:         Yes, he'll be over here very soon.  He'll remember, like, their part of it, but you see, John, John always, or Elizabeth always used to claim they started the C... well they did, they started the CRC.

A:         They did, yeah.

P:         But, there was a residue of families left over from this other earlier work.

A:         Yeah.

T:         Can I get you to give John Ridley my card?

(BREAK)

P:         Yeah, John Kirkwood.  Well um, anyway, Athol Day went there first of all, but he...

T:         That was Len's brother, was it?

P:         That was Len's brother.  This was very early in the piece.  And he went on up to Sydney, and um, um, he had quite an active little work around the, um, some zones of Sydney, probably twenty or thirty people there within a, quite a short period of time.  That's where Les and Shirley Scanlon got saved.  In fact I was present the night that, um, it was in their flat, it was in their flat that I saw the first baptism in the miniature bath.  They pick them up and ran them through this miniature bathtub like a roll of film.  You've never seen anything quite like it in you life!

A:         We did a lot of that.

P:         Oh, gosh.  But we had a lot in common with Les and Shirley in the early days because, because of Athol Day.  You see, in around about 1959, I went up to Sydney, New South Wales, I was working up there for about three or four months.  And they used to call down through Sydney about every three weekends, every third weekend.  And because of Len, he said "Oh, look, look brother Athol up."  So I went and looked Athol Day up, and Athol Day introduced me to his little assembly and I became virtually a part of that little CR... uh Revival Centre assembly in Sydney at that time.  And um, um, oh, who also was there?  There was another young bloke up in that assembly.

T:         What can you tell me about Jack Clay?  Can you remember much about him?

P:         Not at lot, except...