Rank:Poster Venti I
Score:6410 Posts:304
Registered:22/06/2006
Reply To GEEWIZZ
(Date Posted:18/11/2008 04:26:58)
Reply to GEEWIZZ (18/11/2008 04:01:19)
3) I want to say that I don't think the culture of the church has changed much from what you people have experienced.
Leopards dont change their spots, it doesn't matter if it's RF/RCI or whatever they all stem from the same seed and will continue to bear the same fruit.
It's great to see that you are questioning and thinking- these are 2 things that are definitely not encouraged and almost a lost ability within the organisations.
From my experience truth is not necessary a benefit to the organization, I found the scripture - have a become your enemy because I speak the truth -prophetic.
More and more I realized to follow God, I needed to not be following ungodly people.
All the best for your search for truth and a fulfilling life in the Lord.
-------------------------------------------------------------- As I hear it, I'll repeat it,
Its up to you if you believe it!
Allegation big and small,
soon revealed before us all.
outa here- Outa Egypt!
you are not alone, that is for sure, (your position whilst still within RF I mean)
The funny thing is we think we are doing all this thinking alone and its us against them because of all the dodgy stuff around us but hypocrisy is just what Jesus hates.
Its pretty much the same story here too..
How do you not give yourself away on here?
I don't want to alarm you but I think I know who you are but then again I might not (assuming you chucked in some deliberate tangents) but not to worry. Actually if everything you said is true I don't think you are who I think you are.
Anyway, it is the hardest thing. So many good people tossed in amongst the thorns. Lots to say still and this is my first post and it is late so will write more another day.
Good post. I feel for you. What you have listed are very real problems in RF. They should not arise in a christian community. Unfortunately, there is no recourse for you or anyone in RF to honestly discuss the points you have raised. You see, those who don't smile and say everything is lovely, but who raise genuine issues, are often labelled as fault finders with a bad attitude and treated with extreme caution. A pity. They will never learn if they don't listen.
Yes, it is possible to feel like a stray in RF.
Yes, you can feel totally isolated in a crowded RF hall.
Yes, it is almost impossible to find someone who understands (they are afraid because they're told not to get involved)
Yes, gossip is rife in RF. In fact its a scourge and an affliction.
Yes, there are cliques in RF.
There are not that many in RF that you can trust.
I brought up some of these things with a pastor and was told to toughen up, that (the then RCI) was not for the faint-hearted and I had to be tough to endure (in the church). Strange for a church community.
Pastor Quirk and the like are from the school of tight control and authoritarian leadership who never admit error. They do err, though, and do do wrong (same as anyone else) but are somehow exempt from correction.
The pastors concentrate heavily on an experience, tongues/Holy Spirit, then keeping bottoms on seats at preferably every meeting and keeping people busy - camps, outreaches, fellowships etc. There almost isn't time to allow the Holy Spirit to guide anyone towards following Jesus - putting on the mind of Christ. Of this they seem to have scant knowledge.
So, from what you, I and others know of RF, it doesn't seem like a community who are being led to put on the mind of Christ.
If these men want their church to be a loving Christlike community they must humbly seek God's guidance in reviewing this need for proof. God doesn't have to prove himself. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600 Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
Reply To Jeremiah99
(Date Posted:18/11/2008 17:39:34)
Good morning, Balaam66.
Hang in there, and do not be discouraged. If the doctrine is sound, focus on that and never mind those on this forum who preach a doctrine of concision, which falls far short of salvation. You probably have seen who I mean already.
Ha, ha. That's a pretty big "if" fella Anyway, understand that your Revivalist "doctrine" isn't sound, and it doesn't lead to "salvation" (it does lead to a good dose of spiritual and personal delusion; however, and it does seem to universally result in legalism, but I suppose that's a story for another thread!). Now you could attempt to demonstrate to me from Scripture how my statement about the bankruptcy of Revivalist "doctrine" is wrong, but given your "engagement" thus far, I won't be holding my breath whilst waiting for you to do so
If I was able to be in one of the better RF fellowships, I would gladly do so.
Aah, the comparative "better" (as in "good", "better", "best"). Unfortunately, your entire weighing of the matter is predicated on strictly social concerns. Consequently, to you, social dysfunction is the principle issue regarding your schism from the wider RF. But what of doctrinal dysfunction? What of the reality of the unbiblical doctrinal novelties that are promoted by your preferred system? (e.g. "tongues" + dunking = salvation; Anglo-Saxon ethnicity = historicaland biblical Israel; Bible Numerics; et cetera) Does none of this rubbish constitute a concern for you and yours? Obviously I was posing a rhetorical question, given that you are clearly one who is remarkably naive so as to swallow this lot without first chewing!
But the few bad ones can be really bad, and a few rogue pastors, scared of losing their own positions of power, abuse the flock to the extent of putting anyone out of fellowship who can see what they are doing wrong.
An interesting attempt at directed condemnation, given that you're a fellow who stands at risk of an even greater judgment yourself!
The genuine pastors, whom the Lord has appointed, do not need to behave like that.
Whom the Lord has appointed? So these "genuine" Revivalist pastors possess credentials that bear the imprimatur of Yahweh, huh? Well ... I'm personally somewhat sceptical of such a high falutin' claim, especially given the biblical pre-conditions and requirements encumbent upon those who would serve in the capacity of ministers over congregations. Note, for example, those outlined by Paul in 1 Timothy 3:1-9 and Titus 1:6-9.
Get involved in outreach, and bring a few new people along. Don't hide your light under a bushel, let it shine. If anyone does not like it, that is their problem, and they can give account to the Lord for it.
My advice to "Geewhiz" would be to, first, repent of his heretical Revivalist error, and then to flee from anything pertaining to the RF as one would flee the plague! It would be far, far better for him/her to become acquainted with, and involved in, a Christian church than it would be to continue in the unbiblical delusion that is Revivalism.
By being there, and by participating fully, you can help to make a difference.
Indeed. In doing so the one becomes an active participant in the condemnation of the many
You can continue a heretic or repent to embrace Jesus and his gospel. Your choice.
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 18/11/2008 17:42:53)
Rank:Regular Member
Score:4190 Posts:205
Registered:21/04/2008
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:18/11/2008 17:46:19)
Hey Geewizz,
It's a big thing for you to open up the way you have. I'm saddened that you're apparently not able to do so where you currently fellowship. Like Epi, I encourage you to hang on to to your love for God. Deepen your relationship with Christ and base that on the apostles' doctrine ... the bible. Seek God for the courage and strength to follow where he leads. Seek him to find wise teachers whose fruit is not the rotted stuff so often found in RF. The essays in the "Please consider" forum are an excellent place to start.
Now, I must disagree with Jeremiah99. The doctrine *is* fundamentally flawed. As such you ought to look for a Christian community to fellowship with. For starters what RF teaches as proof of 'receiving the Spirit', and what the bible says is proof are two different kettles of haddock. Ditto for the answer to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" I fervently exhort you to study the bible for yourself, questioning why RF teaching so often wrests verses from their context.
I have recently left one of the "better RF fellowships". (My move was many months, and from some perspectives years, in the making. I can understand why you both doubt and stay at the same time.) Even the fruit of this "better fellowship", being based on false doctrine, is sometimes questionable. Eg. one has to ask why these "better fellowships" have not come together to confront and stop the "few rogues". They've had since 1995 to do so. I could supply a number of possible answers (based on their goodwill!), but I'll leave you to ponder.
Mate ... hang onto the Lord and be prepared to ask both him and yourself the tough questions like these. "Why am I staying in a place that seems to revel in un-Godly fruit?" "Maybe no church is faultless, but aren't there some better than this?" "If the fruit here is so bad, why should I trust their teaching?" "What does the bible really say?"
(Message edited by Talmid On 20/11/2008 04:32:50)
-------------------------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610 Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:19/11/2008 02:23:53)
1) I am in RF. 2) God is pretty much the only joy in my life. 3) I have read this site for a while.
Hiya, nice to meetcha. Fun place here isn't it? Some interesting people who have been where you are. Some are Bible savvy, and others are open-minded and looking to learn more. Some people on here are even Revivalists... *note: imo, some people, like Jerimiah99, are still Revivalist by definition and doctrine even though they don't fellowship at those particular organisations anymore.
3) I want to say that I don't think the culture of the church has changed much from what you people have experienced.4) This is very frustrating.
No, that church doesn't turn on a dime. It doesn't turn at all on the whole, but it IS interesting that many members there recognise the need to change and turn away from whatever it is that keeps the associated with the same problems they've always had. They just can't put their fingers on the missing ingredient. I think the problem is that they're ignorant in regards to historical and biblical context.
5) I became God fearing a few years ago. Recieved the Holy Spirit. It was a very powerful experience. I don't want to give too much away. I know what you guys are thinking but just wait out I will write more over the next few days.
Don't hold back though. Just be very honest with yourself, and open to the possibility that there may be some information that separates your current knowledge bank from moving upward and outwards.
6) Thanks to people like you I have become aware of the politics and engrained(is that a word?) culture of the church. 7) I am writing this because I am hard pressed to find anyone in church that a understands it.b knows where I'm coming fromc won't gossip. Gossip is rife as usual.d understands I can say this but still regard God.
No one likes a non-conforming conformist in a place that demands conformity (or 'unity').
8) I feel like an unwanted friggin stray in the church. That's not the crux of it though. I know this sounds very typical and a small issue but it is actually due to/indicative of a much bigger issue. This is very hard to cope with because I am flat out trying to keep my self approved to God and then at the end of the week I rock up to church where people clearly make an effort to brush me off.
Yep, it is very easy to feel very alone and invisible in that group of people - I remember the feeling well. There's almost an impersonal fake friendship laid down that makes it very easy for them to 'shun' or 'punish' people who dare to leave their flock. Not true for all, but true for 'overall'. Come and go to every meeting like a good member and you're ok, however, you'll get much more 'attention' from them if you miss a couple.
9) There is such an awful respecting of persons going on. There is more clicks there than I have ever seen in any other social dynamic full of beer swizzling drug taking heathens that don't know God. Disgusting in the children of God.
Is this how you feel about people who aren't Revivalists? Beer swizzling heathens? Type-casting much? Am I missing a tongue in cheek inflection here? If that is how you feel about 'people' then I really do feel sorry for you and how that group has made you feel towards others. Very judgemental and very spiteful. Cliques do exist in every social network (remember high school?), but they are even more obvious and segregational within the confines of the Revival Closed-community.
12) Those youngies camps are a joke. I have realised the purpose of them for the whole youth/young adult movement in the church. Which is this: It's a yearly catch up for people interstate from one another. That's it. I am hard pressed to find anyone there that wants to talk about God there.
Given that there is limited suitors for single members to choose from in their own little assemblies, I'd guess that these intermingling youth group events are necessary to keep the 'seed' within the church. The courting process is somewhat limited when you must marry within these small groups. Choice is limited in sects such as these. An average area of 300 000 people only includes a 'revival' church of about 150 people! You're definitely encouraged to marry another person who has bought into the doctrine and *buddabing* the dream is kept alive.
13) I am perplexed and in continual shock at the amout of people I have met in the church that don't fear God. I bring up God in a conversation and in about 2 seconds they steer the conversation elsewhere. alarm bells going off in my head. Lots of them.
The major majority of Revivalists don't really know too much outside of what is rambled to them via the in-house lectures given at meetings a few times a week. Bible study and knowledge is handed down from the same tainted containers, bible study books and websites outside of Revival are blacklisted, and I think bible study can only go so far when constrained like that. Revivalists run out of things to talk about, and have to make up British Israel/Numerics/pyramidology to keep things interesting.
14) Pastor Kevin Quirk from perth has been unhappy with some of the ''youngies' because of the content on their ''myspace'' profiles. So what does he do? He threatens to put snapshots of their profiles up on the projector in a meeting!!! Can you believe that? That's really going to fix the problem now isn't it you numpty.
That's so undignified and offensive and typical of the lording over leadership from these sort of organisations. When seen from a distance, outside of the box, after a little time, the Revival Fellowship looks exactly like the sort of place that we denied so vigorously - a cult. Such a label really hit hard and 'The lady doth protest too much' when slapped with it. They haven't changed. They won't change, and by staying in there the members will remain the same. Revival? Contrival.
(Message edited by MothandRust On 19/11/2008 08:01:01)
Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610 Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:20/11/2008 04:16:11)
There's a lot here I'd like to respond to, but I'm a tad busy.
As an agnostic, or even a liberal Christian, as I've heard people call me, I don't rock to and fro at the end of my bed wondering what morals are right and wrong. I do respect the golden rules as they're laid out in bible passages and most are sensical and obvious. Right and wrong can be a sliding scale.
I'm not a drinker, but I do enjoy diluting my blood with ale now and then without guilt. If I drink too much then I suffer consquences. I don't know about right or wrong, but I do know my actions have consequences.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Rank:Poster Venti III
Score:9010 Posts:431
Registered:15/02/2007
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:20/11/2008 05:53:34)
Hi Geewizz
Nice to hear from you! I left RF around 2 years ago after being very involved for 24 years. However, unlike you I had no fear of the Lord and had no personal relationship with Him at all. I guess I was 'on fire' (to use the correct RF terminology) back in the early 80s but kinda fizzled out and became just a 'seat warmer' (to use even more rf speak). The last year or two before my family and I left, I could say that I felt like I was gradually being 'woken up' from my revival sleep as I became more and more aware of the faults (hypocrisy, double standards etc) in the organisation. As I started to pray about some of these things, an awareness that I was not really right with the Lord began to dawn on me which made me seek Him even more. We became aware also that there were quite a few others who were thinking the same way and we began to get together once a week for a prayer night - I had never known anything like it for all my years in rf! We prayed for our pastors to get the same revelation that we were all having, that the assembly needed to 'wake up' and review some of its practices and its doctrine. We had incredible prayer sessions where the Holy Spirit would show up and we would be in absoute awe of what God was doing in our lives. I then began to read my bible more instead of relying on listening to what the oversight were 'teaching' and eventually a group of us made the decision to leave RF after all being there for 20+ years. A well-meaning RF friend said to me 'stay in the middle of the boat where it's safe' which made me reflect on the fact that Peter LEFT the boat to walk to Jesus. I decided that I had to reach out to Him and trust that He would not let me sink. It took quite a bit of courage (something I'd lacked previously) to step out and rely totally on Jesus and it was amazing!!
Some of our best friends decided that they could not fellowship with us any longer as they would be 'unequally yoked with unbelievers' even though we told them we were going to fellowship at another church. This hurt a little initially but it was more to do with sadness for them that they were so indoctrinated. We moved on to another church where there are lots of ex-revvers who are all walking on with the Lord (we've made lots of new friends as well) and I can honestly say that my real relationship with God only began in the last 2 years. It seems that while one is still there, it is difficult to see the things of God clearly but once you 'step out' it's as though you've come out from under a cloud.
Thought I'd just share some of my experiences with you and let you know that my prayers are with you. You're not alone, God loves you and wants you to be able to be free to worship Him in spirit and in truth. God bless you as you look to Him during this time.
Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610 Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:20/11/2008 06:38:47)
"I knew a whole bunch of heathens(I don't use that in a derogitory way)"
Hmm, I still don't think you get it. It's a loaded word; an 'us verses them' word that truly seems to dehumanise non-Revivalists. Heathens? Pagans? Revivalists are very much the heathen to many a Christian who don't see Revivalists beliefs as truly Christian, but I doubt such a Christian would be so blunt as to spit out the word 'heathen' to describe anyone. The very use of the word is inherently derogitory and triggering. Revivalists can be so smug as to call 'themselves' the saints. Everyone else has the term backsliders or heathen thrown in their teeth. I don't see this type of labelling in mainstream Christendom.
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300 Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
RE:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:21/11/2008 10:54:12)
Urch, please explain...........
"prayer sessions where the Holy Spirit would show up and we would be in absoute awe of what God"
Sometimes this christian speak bugs me........ 'show up'????? There just often seems to be language used that makes it all seem a helluvalot more tangible than it is.
And Geewizz,
Interesting to read your thoughts there, which begs the question............
WHY are you still hangin around in the RF?
Dogmafree.
-------------------------------------------------------------- "for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610 Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
RE:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:21/11/2008 16:42:31)
ABC Radio interviews a member of the cult/sect church - Revival Centres International - Youtube video commented on by current members of Revival Churches.
danielias123 (1 day ago)
ok listen, rci is not a "controlling" church or anything! i go there and its a good church.
we do what the bible says! so stop badmouthing rci!
mothandrust (1 day ago) When seen from a short distance, outside of the box, after a little time,
the Revival Fellowship looks exactly like the sort of place that we denied so vigorously -a cult. Such a label really hit hard and 'The lady doth protest too much' when slapped with it.
They haven't changed.
1983ezzie (16 hours ago)
hmmm... ive had a long '19' years with rf (which was once was rci). very controlling.. no growth..
fear tactics.. wishy washy secretive doctrine.. "do as we say & dont question" attitude- or you'll be "put out"! Arnt the shepherds meant to teach and guide their flock?
1983ezzie From a 'worldly view' this is a quite accurate description of both revival fellowship and centers
(being a break off that happened not too long ago). I grew up in this church- YES, they use fear tactics, and they do NOT have a clear doctrine! If they have not already been declared a cult... then they are not to far off from being declared one! From an ex-RF member... but still a happy and thriving Christian.
Dunnyden (3 weeks ago)
this lady is an idiot... far out, she is a nut!
this video infringes my rights, I am flagging it. revival fellowship is not the rci, why do you have pictures of them?!?
PhatAfro (4 weeks ago) The RCI isn't "controlling" at all, what a load of baloney... If you didn't like being in the RCI try being a mormon.
The early church in the bible has very specific ways people should conduct their lives,
it only seems like a cult coz yr comparing it with the world. If you want a simply life, go live in Moe
mothandrust (3 weeks ago) It only seems like a cult when comparing it to Christianity...
and it isn't controlling? omigosh, self-deluded much? Cult typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices
that the surrounding population considers to be outside the mainstream,
with a notably positive or negative popular perception.
soggyslipper (1 month ago) firstly, the rci is not a cult! lol! secondly, EVERYTHING we stand for can be found in the bible,
and if people have a problem with what we do, they have a problem with the bible! also, this lady's son is now in his twenties and still in the rci... and yes, of his own free will! since i came to the church two years ago my life has never been better. it's fantastic stuff,
and i honestly hope this lady thinks about coming back, cos she's missing out! peace!
Rank:Ghost in the machine
Score:34610 Posts:1585
Registered:27/02/2004
Re:It still rolls on...
(Date Posted:21/11/2008 16:57:47)
"It was brought up in casual conversation once that we were going to go for a walk. 3 of us. 2 males and 1 female. Well well someone in leadership quickly pointed out that that aint on beacause of the good old appearance of evil thing(which does have it's place in life- it's correct place). What a joke. Hello. 3 adults here. Can you believe that! Of course the sad thing is that the person in leadership has had the wool over their eyes as well. "
I was amused by recent commentators at youtube who deny their churches are "controlling - lol". I think it's funny that they even to a 'lol' after making the statment, as if it's a bizarre idea. These 'churches' are doing well when they can control every aspect of their members' lives only to have them deny the very obvious fact that they're being manipulated.
You can't drink this; you can't visit someone unacompanied; you must marry within the organisation; all small gatherings must be okayed by Pastor; You can't read this or watch that; Pastor must approve of this, that and the other. In RF we were often reminded to give someone a call if we were unable to make it to a meeting - "We'll miss you and worry, you could be in a gutter" - my god, the list goes on. Miss and prayer and fast self-flagellation day and be given a huge guilt trip on Sunday. Give ten percent of you income 'after' tax... yadda yadda
Revival Churches - there are conditions. Conditions to become a member and conditioned to stay one, and conditions if you leave. Prepared to be conditioned by a controlling church that are, despite giggled protests, quite the control freaks.
Hi Mothy glad to read you are in contact with Rob Harley he used to be my pastor and i always used to like Rob as he seem kinda humble for a rc pastor and very dte, he used to drive an old valiant car.I can't wait to see more rf/rc utube stuff. Keep up the great work.
-------------------------------------------------------------- "Try not to burn the toast"
Interesting to see some things have never changed eh...
Make no mistake though - young peoples and camps are all about shielding young folk in the RF from mingling with family and the 'world' during red zone periods of time:
- Weekends when most youth are out partying and having a good time
- Christmas/New Year where again, socializing is the norm.
Maybe someone needs to put a slide up in church of the following quotlet from Pastor Quirk:
"My son will never leave this church, because as the Bible says, I have instructed my child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it."
Of course, his son DID leave the group. Whoops.
And if P. Quirk reads this and gnaws his teeth (I am sure he is already grinding his teeth to ruin over the mere thought his son is supposedly earning eternal hell fire - what a lark), then maybe he should remember the numerous people that group in Perth summarily cast out of fellowship for trivial and lame-o reasons.
No, I wasn't one of them - but I did see it happen.
The normality and balance that this group sucks out of young people is disgusting.
I joined the group at 16 and I know exactly how this process goes.
Pastor Alan Thomas' favourite trick was to snare you subtly into coughing up information about what you have been up to and then pounding you afterwards about it.
I am more than Happy to be an agnostic these days and the older I get, the more I veer towards Atheism.
Not there yet, but flirting with it. :-P
I know many of you are still 'God Fearing' but that certainly isn't me anymore.
We didnt exist when the universe was formed, when the first humans roamed the earth, when the pyramids were created, when Captain Cook sailed into Botany Bay - and yet we feel we have some inherent right to exist beyond this, our present and precious life.
We didn't exist for eternity BEFORE the present, yet we as glorified animals feel some right of way to expect an eternal future.
Anyway, understand that your Revivalist "doctrine" 
Sometimes this christian speak bugs me........ 'show up'????? There just often seems to be language used that makes it all seem a helluvalot more tangible than it is.
