Very true Tarquin!

It seems that no matter which country 'THE' assembly is in, it's always run the same way - poorly!

The culture of RF has not changed and will not change even though there might seem to be 'positive changes happening' in some assemblies right now. Unfortunately, they are trying to lure people back (I know of at  least two families that they're working on currently) by saying that they've made changes for the better ((even though this doesn't mean that it was worse or (God forbid) WRONG at some stage though?))

Funny old RF!

Urch

The trouble is that the RF leadership base all their "theology" on prooftext King James script and hence without the skills and the necessary good fundamental tools such as a UBS4 Greek New Testament, they really are completely amiss.  The people of the RF are being so very easily led astray by men who are just so highly hermeneutically incompetent at handling Holy Writ.   ... Hence the mess the RF find themselves in..

Disciple





(Message edited by Disciple On 22/09/2008 16:09:57)

Hi Urch and greetings North London

You are quite right Urch, they are poorly run, and as you say, wholly incapable of apology.
Many of the men I have known in RF leadership positions would make good case studies for in-depth psychological profiling.

What should be looked at is how they have changed as people, their irrational upholding of the mindset that the fellowship cannot be wrong, the double-speak, the hedging, the turning of shocking errors into assembly triumphs, the identification of dangers, the fear they now live in,  the gossip at leaders meetings, the solemn nodding of heads at discussions of "problem people" and all the "problem people's" problems.

I have some terribly sad memories of people who knew the oversight (I use the term loosely) were on their cases for one thing or another. They knew they were perceived as "problem people" and it affected them in different ways. And of course, the problems were not biblical problems at all.

This is a real danger as I see it - the turning of random events, circumstances, and human characteristics into Christian fellowship problems, when clearly they are nothing of the kind. It sets the scene and the tone, and is a grimy RF tool, a shoddy destructive mindset that attaches to you like superglue. You can easily become ensnared in the nonsense.

Welcome to Revival World.

(Message edited by Tarquin the Magnificent On 23/09/2008 05:44:02)

In London it sometimes seemed that each talk from the altar was a not very subtle coded address to specific members or factions of members in the assembly.  Talks seemed to have been prepared in the same way that politicians make statements and interviews to the press as thinly veiled assaults on other politicians.  Towards the end this was pretty much all I really heard from the talk.  The party leader would tell us to open our bibles and turn to a certain passage and in seconds I could guess what point he would be about to make about certain attitudes of certain sorts of people.  The expulsions and purges were straight out of Comrade Stalin's handbook too.

Lurpak is the best thing that came from Denmark!  Isn't there an additional Lurpak Lite now?

 

"Revival World" is a way of life, but it is not real life. Nor is it biblical life. The scenario played out truly does become "Goodies vs Baddies" with dangers and problems seen absolutely everywhere.

My incredulity at my own previous stupidity is known by those who visit this website and used to know me, so no more self flagellation now.

The imaginary dangers extend out even further, and problems are seen amongst even those who believe the same things - RF see dangers with RCI/CAI and GRC, RCI see dangers with RF/GRC/CAI, GRC see dangers in RF/RCI/CAI, and CAI.......do you see what I mean? Each group knows they are right, and can articulate why. This graceless disease of the mind really knows no bounds.

I was in RF. It was always RF vs The World. When a small group breaks from the main body of which ever branch, it can become Small Group vs Revival vs The World - an immediate increase in perceived problems, compromisers and potential enemies.

Goodies and Baddies, a symptom of Revival World. It can extend out as far as any person wants it too.

I get pm messages from current and ex-members, and with current members I notice the same thing. They make contact, I reply, and then the fear grips them, it can almost be smelt through the computer. They become aware of transgressing expected behavioural requirements of the cult. They are on the verge of starting up a correspondence with a "fall away". They then disappear into the night.

I remember a London RF'er telling me that although we had left, he was going to keep in touch no matter what, and hang the consequences! Very brave, I thought at the time. Weeks later the "pastor" of his group said he wished to speak to him. My friend pre-empted the reason, called me, and said "I'm phoning to say that I'm breaking contact with you..and I'll be telling the pastor this"

Revival World had gripped my mate. It turned out to be nothing to do with him talking to me, but he never did make contact again. What did he think God would do to him, and what kind of life is this?


 

(Message edited by Tarquin the Magnificent On 13/11/2008 03:48:14)

whereas you sadly seem to believe nothing at all

I believe in a lot of things actually.  But I can't believe in everything.  I don't believe LL's teachings on pyramidology and british israelism.  I don't believe in bible numerics.  They have been effectively debunked.

Another wierd theology that I do not believe in is Lloyd's groovy theory about sexual defaulters.  RF was able to debunk it by appealing to the bible - they showed it was 'unbiblical'.

Other Christians are able to make this same appeal about certain other of Lloyd's pet theologies such as his end times theology his teaching about the godhead and the person of the holy spirit... oh and that tongues thing.  As with the sexual defaulters teaching, pesky little bible know-it-alls are able to run rings around revivalists when it comes to comparing scriptures.  All the revivalists can do is say "well sure their high falutin' words may sound oh so clever but uh... they are wrong and I am right and I know because they disagree with me so there!"  An unsound theology is then hidden under the guise of anti-intellectualism.  A feature of totalitarian systems.  If revivalists are so confident about the soundness of their salvation theology why are they so stand-offish about debating their ideas?

In 2003 when I left I had some email correspondance with pw and I never really got satisfying answer to a question I asked about RF's attitude to biblical scholarship.  By the way he admitted that he did not believe in bi and bible numerics.  He also admitted in his answer that RF was ambivalent towards bible scholarship and conceded a point on this.  Then disappointingly he reverted back to type and said that RF oppose scholars on the basis that they do not promote "our case" and said that "scholarship per se wont get you into the kingdom of heaven".

One thing I DO believe in is that if something is true and worthy it should be able to withstand vigorous sceptical inquiry and criticism --from whatever agenda.  Lloyd's salvtion theory, in my experience, fails to do this.

Tarquin,

What you describe is as you say not limited to any sect or assembly or anything like that - it is symptomatic of an attitude that you define as 'revival world'.  It reminds me of the scene from Life of Brian where John Cleese is trying to explain that his group are the Judean People's Front (or is it the Popular Front of Judea? I can never remember but that's the point).

I lasted a lot longer than I might have done in the assembly by separating out all the problems I had with the dysfunctional structure of the fellowship and the doctrine that I felt transcended any admin issues.  However the two are entwined.  The controversy of the doctrine creates the siege mentality and the paranoia that everyone is relentlessly fighting against you and you can’t trust anyone… except people in the Revival Centres –I mean people in the Revival Fellowship –I mean people within the Revival Fellowship who are not corrupted – I mean people in the non-corrupted group who hold x opinion about the latest internal controversy –I mean … well I guess I can only really trust myself … then again…

This is what I experienced – an extremely low trust culture for such a supposedly close fraternity.  It is funny how we thought that our assembly ties were much stronger than our ties with friends in the world because we shared a creed.  I guess the guy who called you truly was your friend and for a moment it seemed that this would continue despite your difference of opinion on whether Lloyd was right or wrong about one of his ideas.

 

Jeremiah99: "oh and lurpak is with us"

he/she is with US.  He/she is with THEM.  us vs them it is exactly what T was talking about.  As I understand it L wants to be able to do her own thing with her own life.  If she feels that being with you is right than great but watch the pressure ok?

"All the revivalists can do is say "well sure their high falutin' words may sound oh so clever but uh... they are wrong and I am right and I know because they disagree with me so there!"  An unsound theology is then hidden under the guise of anti-intellectualism.  A feature of totalitarian systems.  If revivalists are so confident about the soundness of their salvation theology why are they so stand-offish about debating their ideas?"

Oh bravo! Very nicely written, and completely on 'the money'. Nothing to add really, I just appreciated how well you captured the Revival attitude here. This anti-intellectualism we held so dear was a necessary mechanism that evolved into the mindset of many a Revivalists in order to protect Lloyd's doctrine from analysis... well, obviously. Sadly, the fear of education kept many a Rev-member from furthering thier own education because of the fellowship time that 'study' would rob and the 'community' that the 'saints' would have to involve themselves with so heavily. I think this has relaxed somewhat in the Revival community as they concede that society has become more knowledge based. Innovation, flexibility, and a willingness to learn has become so dominant nowadays in order for a person to be employable. In the survival of the fittest "people are destroyed through lack of knowledge".

Reply to MothandRust (13/11/2008 08:54:58) "All the revivalists can do is say "well sure their high falutin' words may sound oh so clever but uh... they are wrong and I am right and I know because they disagree with me so there!"  An unsound theology is then hidden under the guise of anti-intellectualism.  A feature of totalitarian systems.  If revivalists are so confident about the soundness of their salvation theology why are they so stand-offish about debating their ideas?" Oh bravo! Very nicely written, and completely on 'the money'. Nothing to add really, I just appreciated how well you captured the Revival attitude here. This anti-intellectualism we held so dear was a necessary mechanism that evolved into the mindset of many a Revivalists in order to protect Lloyd's doctrine from analysis... well, obviously. Sadly, the fear of education kept many a Rev-member from furthering thier own education because of the fellowship time that 'study' would rob and the 'community' that the 'saints' would have to involve themselves with so heavily. I think this has relaxed somewhat in the Revival community as they concede that society has become more knowledge based. Innovation, flexibility, and a willingness to learn has become so dominant nowadays in order for a person to be employable. In the survival of the fittest "people are destroyed through lack of knowledge".

Makes me cringe to think how much time we socialised with these people instead of being with our real family and friends, you know the REAL people out there.Beware of any religion who try  to recruit people.

JoJo,

Gold dust! Absolute gold dust!

Blessings,

Ian