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Title: 2 Questions - Acts 2:8-12
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TBerry
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Registered: 12/03/2008

(Date Posted:12/03/2008 16:40:44)

Hello - i have 2 questons regarding the 12-disciples only tongues theory thats been raised...

It was stated that only the 12 disciples would have received the tongues manifestation at pentecost.
It was also stated that tongues at pentecost were clearly defined languages (which they were).

Question 1:  Why then were a total of 15 languages heard, when only a total of 12 people evidently spoke in tongues? (Acts 2:8-12)

Question 2: If as has been eluded, tongues was for preaching, why did Peter not stand up and preach the gospel in his newly given tongue? Why did he simply use his learned mother tongue to do the preaching?


(Message edited by Uncoolman On 24/04/2008 04:35:27)
Didaktikon
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Reply To TBerry
(Date Posted:19/03/2008 16:16:28)

Good morning, TBerry.

Ive made it more than obvious that there were others in reference - i havent even been harping on the 120. The point is, the way peter uses Acts 1 quotes later on to the broader community - the whomsoever implies that we can likewise do the same.

Actually, unless you first understand the context that underpinned Peter's comments, then you're not in any position to be making assumptions concerningits application, or its supposed continuing relevance.

Say to anyone in any context now the gospel is open to all - gentile, jew, bond, free, multigenerational.

Agreed. Completely. But this isn't a discussion about the gospel, which is, of course, timeless. No, we've been discussing what happened to the apostles at Pentecost, and just as important, why. Smile

You too can have exactly what the disciples had.

Really? That would be the old, "...every promise in the Book is mine, every chapter, every verse, very liiiiine..." sort of 'folk' theology, eh? The fact is that not every promise in Scripture is actually universal. And as I've pointed out (about a million times already), the promise concerning the specific empowering at Pentecost was specifically made by Jesus Christ, specifically to his apostles. Now for whatever reason, you've gone out of your way to avoid, like the plague, engaging with what I have very clearly proven to be the case, and from the English text that's available to all! Instead of actually engaging with what I've written, and attempting to refute the same, you've simply persisted in repeating your own views, over and over, as if doing so proves your point. Really quite silly, if you think about it.

Its not too much to ask of God - its been blown right open (even if it was initially only for the disciples - the fact is the latter rain is on and aint nobody gonna stop it with mere words).

Right. Undecided

And that if it was good for Peter to use this stuff out of context to the point of Luke including it in his recount of Acts, then obviously its a fine example for us to follow.

Two things: (1) Peter didn't use "this stuff" out of context at all; and even if he had, (2) Peter was an apostle, one who was specifically empowered by Christ, and specifically led by the Holy Spirit. No person living today can claim the privileges to 'infallibility' the apostles exercised.

Let us open up the pentecost experience to all and sundry now.

Sure, but it still wouldn't help you or the various Revivalist sects, as your 'experience' isn't the Pentecostal one! Unless, of course, your 'experience' happened strictly in a group context, one that incorporated the sound of a violently blowing wind, and a theophany of parting flame, and the distribution of authentic languages that were understood by 'unbelievers' who were present. You see, if your experience doesn't replicate the full range of manifestations that are described in Acts 2, then it simply isn't Pentecostal! Capiche? Innocent

I do not believe the Lord wants us to preach a message that somehow closes it all off with the disciples. Beyond the fact they (and others) were the subjects of Jesus conversations - its all in the Word now.

Have you not read a single word that I have written in my previous posts?! Yell What you may, or may not, care to believe is irrelevant! What is relevant, however, is the very clear record that was left to us.

You say why, i simply say why not? Lets go for it - if its good enough for the gentiles even to grasp, then we should all be going with it too.

Amazing!

The apostle Paul spoke in tongues; different to that of the disciples of the pentecost day.

Indeed he did! Paul's was the simple gift of tongues, and not the manifestation of miraculously spoken foreign langauges that we read of at Pentecost. Here's the rub: they are not the same!

However he didnt become cinical about it like you.

Really? Have you not read 1 Corinthians 12 through 14?!

He was happy to pray in tongues at a personal level despite the apparent difference to that of those disciples at pentecost.

'Apparent' difference, huh? Try this one -- different in: (1) form, (2) function, (3) purpose, (4) practice, and (5) relevance.

Its ok moth, you dont need to feel insufficient just because of the way we speak in tongues is somewhat different to the first outpouring.

Bloke, the way that you speak in 'tongues' has absolutely nothing in common with what occurred at Pentecost. If you want to find biblical warrant for your 'experience', then you need to look to the situation encountered by Paul at Corinth, not Jerusalem. And the simple of gift of tongues, the type that Paul writes about in his letter, is not presented as the 'sign' of having 'received' the Holy Spirit! So if you accept this, then you've no grounds whatsover for linking what you do, to the phenomena of Pentecost, or (for that matter) to the promise of Acts 2:38 that your group hinges everything on. Wink

You dont have to bag it. I mean isnt this your whole point! - that the disciples had something only they were given. The rest of us just speak in plain old tongues as per the apostle Paul. But its there and still available. Be happy with what the Lord has given you - but we dont have to compare with the disciples or devalue the tongues we've been given hey.

There you go! A tacit admission that what you have isn't what the apostles experienced at Pentecost! So if what you have is the simple gift of tongues, and according to Paul, the "least of all gifts", then you've no grounds for linking your experience to the events of Pentecost, have you?

Try spending a little time thinking long and hard on the ramifications of this.

Blessings,

Ian


P.S. I've politely asked you, several times now, to engage with the points that I've raised that disprove your position. To respond to them. To attempt to refute them. But in spite of this, you've not done so, at any point! Consequently, as with my previous interractions with 'MM', I'm rapidly tiring of such 'one-sided engagement' Undecided So in closing, engage or diminish: I have better things to do with my time then 'bash' my head against a brick wall in the vain hope that you'll start engaging with me. So please, have a 'crack' at addressing the many, many holes that I've pointed out in your argument.


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 19/03/2008 18:09:14)

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Vivos voco, mortuos plango

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TBerry
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RE:2 Questions
(Date Posted:19/03/2008 23:06:33)

 Well happy easter break everyone - im off to camp to pray in tongues and feel good, while ian stays at home banging his head against a brick wall. Cheers :)
MothandRust
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RE:2 Questions
(Date Posted:19/03/2008 23:43:25)

Reply to TBerry (12/03/2008 16:40:44).
  Well happy easter break everyone - im off to camp to pray in tongues and feel good, while ian stays at home banging his head against a brick wall. Cheers :)


Well, it seems the brick wall Ian was banging his head against has gone off to camp though, doesn't it? I'm off to camp for the break as well, and not pray in babble and feel good.


(Message edited by MothandRust On 19/03/2008 23:47:47)

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Sea Urchin
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RE:2 Questions
(Date Posted:20/03/2008 00:17:08)

Well happy easter break everyone - im off to camp to pray in tongues and feel good, while ian stays at home banging his head against a brick wall. Cheers :)
               ______________________________________________________________________

TBerry

I sincerely hope and pray that you do more than go "off to camp to pray in tongues and feel good" this Easter weekend! If you think that the purpose of tongues is to just 'feel good' you've REALLY missed the whole point.

I'd like to humbly offer a suggestion to you - considering that the purpose of Easter is not just so you 'can go to camp', why don't you try reflecting on what Easter is really all about.

Our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ died an agonising death on the cross to take all of our sins and transgressions. (not so that you could go to camp and scoff at all the Christians who celebrate Easter)
He knew exactly what His Father was asking Him to do, but He did it willingly because He could see us - that's how much He loves each and every one of us. Rejoice greatly over His resurrection this weekend because that resurrection power is available to all who believe.

I know that RF do not 'believe in Easter' but you know what? Jesus DID die for us and He DID rise again that we may have eternal life. Reflect on that while you're "off to camp to pray in tongues and feel good"

God bless, Urch

--------------------------------------------------------------
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.

Didaktikon
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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:20/03/2008 00:54:40)

It seems that camping over Easter is the thing to do! Laughing My family goes camping this time every year with another family, to spend time together, and to reflect on Christ's Passion and Resurrection.

Mothster: I hope you and yours enjoy your time away relaxing and socialising.

Urch and other Christians: season's greetings this pascha.

TBerry: well, have fun speaking in 'tongues'.

'Out'.

Ian

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Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

RF_on_the_edge
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RE:2 Questions
(Date Posted:25/03/2008 05:37:03)

Yo TBerry

I thought you might be interested in the following quote from the AMP, especially since the AMP used to be an RF/RCI favourite.

http://www.studybibleforum.com/htm_php.php3?do=jump_to_chapter&refstr=Acts+2%3A6&trans=AMP

Acts 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together and they were astonished and bewildered, because each one heard them [the apostles] speaking in his own [particular] dialect.

(Message edited by RF_on_the_edge On 25/03/2008 05:53:33)
Didaktikon
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Reply To RF_on_the_edge
(Date Posted:25/03/2008 06:44:06)

Oi!

You're stealing all my (future) thunder! Yell That's twice now that I've had to sigh and think, "well, now. There goes someone else hammering nails I'd hoped to use, into this particular Revivalist coffin." Still, it's to be expected that one can't have all the fun, I suppose
Wink

Keep it up, bucko! Laughing

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

RF_on_the_edge
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Reply to Didaktikon
(Date Posted:25/03/2008 07:36:34)

Oops. I just came across it and couldn't help myself. (Well ... I didn't stop to think that you would already be well aware of it and could have been holding back for a reason.Foot in mouth)

I should have realised that a person in your business, let alone with your experience in this area, would have a well thought out plan. Laughing

And with that I think I'd best respect TBerry's request and 'allow you room to respond'. (Apologies to you TBEmbarassed)

(Message edited by RF_on_the_edge On 25/03/2008 07:38:41)
Didaktikon
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Reply To RF_on_the_edge
(Date Posted:25/03/2008 18:33:33)

Hi, bloke.

Oops. I just came across it and couldn't help myself. (Well ... I didn't stop to think that you would already be well aware of it and could have been holding back for a reason.)

Don't worry about it. The only reason I 'hold-back' a little pertinent info now and then, is for the 'katchang!' factor that happens when little diversions are invariably 'tied-off' Wink

I should have realised that a person in your business, let alone with your experience in this area, would have a well thought out plan. Laughing

Don't sweat it. Plans need to be inherently flexible if they're to survive for more than 10 seconds after the first 'shot' is fired Wink Anyway, TBerry probably already realises that he's in 'check', whilst I've viewed the board from every angle and knew beforehand that it's actually 'check-mate'. Still, I'm happy to let him play out the remainder of his game.

And with that I think I'd best respect TBerry's request and 'allow you room to respond'. (Apologies to you TBEmbarassed)

Let's see if TBerry has the manners to respond to my many requests first, before I trouble myself going into further detail Undecided

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

Didaktikon
60# 



Rank:Old Forum Fogey

Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007

Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:05/05/2008 19:36:39)

TBerry,

I'm deafened by your silence! Oh, well, I guess you have nothing to add to the defence of your position after all. Gonna repent now? Wink

Blessings,

Ian

--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango

website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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