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Galien
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101#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
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RE:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 05:53:25)
I believe that even Christians go through many levels of understanding during a lifetime. For a long time, even after I left Revival, I was still a very letter of the law Christian. So much so that I used the word of God to destory my relationship with my eldest child because she was acting in what I considered a very ungodly way. I had adopted her from my sister who also had multiple problems.
Everything I said to my child was biblically correct. I asked her to leave my home because I could not tolerate her unchristian behaviour in my godly, holy home. We remained estranged for 18 months until a kind christian friend reminded me that my job was not to judge my child, but to love her unconditionally, outside her behaviour. Never having experienced that myself it was quite the challenge to learn how to do so. Thankfully I had taught her how to be forgiving, and now we are very close. The whole experience taught me a very valuable lesson.
want the world to be a perfect place, where everyone is like Jesus. Where everyone is kind, loving, no one needs to lord it over anyone else. Where people don't need to judge each other, put others down tomake them feel superior. Where people worship god rather than money or status. Where we don't do everything from a self centred need to feed our own ego, but from an other centred love.
Where people dont need to use the bible or religion to make others feel less than they are.
I realise now that being a christian is not about adhering to the letter of the law, it is about love. The kind that transcends the need to be right, the kind set out in 1 Corinthians 13. I can do every single thing the bible tells me too, but if I do not have genuine love for others from a pure heart, I am nothing.
I learned that from my appalling behaviour with my own child. I was doing all the right things. Or so I thought. But in my own self righteousness I had forgotten the most important thing. That the love of God is shed abroad in my heart by the holy spirit which is given to me. But I just preferred to be right, pure and simple. Because I loved God and I wanted to please him, and I would never so the things that she was doing blah blah blah.
Now I just hang my head in shame at the way I acted.
So you ask on what I base my moral judgements? Not the letter of the law. I can wish it to be true, but I cannot make anyone else want what I want. I can judge them, villify them, treat them as badly as my own self righteousness allows, but at some point, I have to be completely naked before god in my prayer closet. And in that place I have nothing to justify anything other than my own repentance over my own failings.
If I have not love, I am nothing.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Didaktikon
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102#
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Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
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Reply To Galien
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 06:02:17)
Galien,
I doubt you understand the Bible with one tenth the clarity that you think you do, furthermore I seriously doubt that what you modeled in your home would've been recognised as Christian by either Christ or Paul. Contrary to your assertion, being a Christian is not about undefined and sentimental feelings of "love". Jesus himself made it quite plain that to be a Christian required following him, and doing what he commanded.
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Galien
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103#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 15:08:04)
I doubt you understand the Bible with one tenth the clarity that you think you do, furthermore I seriously doubt that what you modeled in your home would've been recognised as Christian by either Christ or Paul. Contrary to your assertion, being a Christian is not about undefined and sentimental feelings of "love". Jesus himself made it quite plain that to be a Christian required following him, and doing what he commanded.
I guess this is where we take two different roads Major. You believe that understanding the Bible is the key. Do you think those men who stood there in line with stones in hand ready to do what God commanded in a situation of adultery understood the scriptures they studied? I am sure they did. Didn't make them right thought did it? Didn't stop Jesus from making sure they knew that even though they were following said scriptures, that there was another dimension in play. You may find that dimension "undefined" and "sentimental". Jesus never did. He saw right through everyone. He knew which of us were motivated by love, and which of us are motivated by something else entirely.
I have been priveleged to have a relationship with God since I was nine. Complicated I guess in some ways by the fact that the minister who introduced me to God then sexually assaulted me for the next three months. Hasn't given me what one would call a great deal of respect for men who tell me a good thing then follow it up with opposite behaviour. But it has sure taught me the difference between god and men.
That relationship is not one of fear, but one of love. Coming to know God as a child I know him not only my father, but my daddy, the only real one I have ever had. I sin like everyone. God forgives me. I rail against him, he laughs. I am not AFRAID of him Major. In awe, but not afraid. I love him, he loves me. I'm not perfect and I don 't have to be.
I hope one day major that you find the other dimension where that silly undefined love rules. That you learn to feel the weight of that stone in your hand, and everything it represents. Jesus died to show us a new way, that is why he told the men with the stones to back off. He constantly said you have been taught this, but I tell you this. He showed us a new way, ones that does not depend on following the letter of the law.
The Revival mess never really worked that out. It damaged all of us major, even you. In my understanding, pathetic as it is in your eyes, following someone means doing what they did. Having a degree in theology does not mean that you necessarily understand the bible. Having a degree in psychology does not mean I understand everything about the human heart and mind either.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Sh0es
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104#
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Registered:21/01/2009
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 18:43:49)
Galien,
I never post on the forum proper, but something about your story has touched my heart.
I understand completely where you are coming from, in fact just about everyone posting on these forums shares your same story of pain. I can also clearly see your logic. I admit to having a similar rebounding experience, where I replaced all the judgement and condemnation with the notion of free and permissive love. It is very easy to run from the harshness of what we have known and like a pendulum swing to the opposite extreme, but when in doubt, we have to go back to the Bible to find God's will.
Love in Christianity is pre-eminent, it is written into the two greatest commandments and the new commandment, but love is not an emotion, it is the act of showing kindness and care. Where this pertains to the current debate, is that true love is not wishing people to continue in their sin, estranged from the plan of God. Kindness and compassion should of course, always be shown, but we need to direct people towards the will of God. Society today has become very permissive, but that doesn't equate to love. Jesus did love the sinners, but he never condoned their sin.
Furthermore Galien, despite the critical importance of "Love", it is not the centre of Christianity, Jesus Christ is. If we are to be truly Christian then we are called as Ian rightly pointed out, to follow Jesus. This is the literal translation of "Christian", follower of Christ, and it clearly teaches that Christ's instruction MUST be of a higher importance than our own thoughts. No-one that is truly a Christian (Follower of Christ) would hate a person for their sin, we of course wish to see everyone restored into God's plan. If we believe that people should continue in behaviour that is clearly outside the will and plan of God, then we are not helping them, we are making it harder for them to repent.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
It is our calling Galien to preach the truth of the Word of God, that people may repent of their sins whether small or great and see the Righteousness of God. Jesus sacrifice has broken the power of Sin, the real message is that we are not only free from a guilty verdict, but that the power of the tempter has been broken. We can now choose to live exactly the life that God always intended for us.
God bless
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Galien
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105#
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Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 20:14:11)
REPLY TO SHOES
I never post on the forum proper, but something about your story has touched my heart.
In a good way I hope ShOes.
I understand completely where you are coming from, in fact just about everyone posting on these forums shares your same story of pain. I can also clearly see your logic. I admit to having a similar rebounding experience, where I replaced all the judgement and condemnation with the notion of free and permissive love. It is very easy to run from the harshness of what we have known and like a pendulum swing to the opposite extreme, but when in doubt, we have to go back to the Bible to find God's will.
I would not say I have swung completely the other way. I am not a homosexual, so that has never been an issue for me. I guess for me it is more of a question of I can tell homosexuals what the bible says until I am blue in the face, but how is that going to change them? People have to WANT to follow what the Bible says, I can't MAKE them, and I cannot justify in my own mind ramming it down anyone's throat. There are many issues in humanity I would like to address. Lying is my particular favourite. In our society we are taught it is okay to lie to ourselves and others from an early age. Goes on all the time, and it is such a part of out society now people just ignore it. How come no one addresses that?
I am no great fan of people just running amok with permissive anything. I am still a pretty boring person myself.
Love in Christianity is pre-eminent, it is written into the two greatest commandments and the new commandment, but love is not an emotion, it is the act of showing kindness and care.
Agreed. It is an act of the will more than an emotion. I am not much of a one for that airy fairy love. I have a drug and alcohol addicted sister whom I have been taking care of most of her life. Loving her through that has been a very interesting experience in what love is not. I am not even a great fan of that "falling in love" business. Seems to be some kind of a short lasting lust based psychosis.
Where this pertains to the current debate, is that true love is not wishing people to continue in their sin, estranged from the plan of God. Kindness and compassion should of course, always be shown, but we need to direct people towards the will of God. Society today has become very permissive, but that doesn't equate to love. Jesus did love the sinners, but he never condoned their sin.
Depends what you think "direct" is. I may tell people, once, what the bible says. After that its up to them. My lack of interest in continually telling people what they should be doing is not necessarily condoning it. I have learned from hard experience that continually annoying people only makes me a pain.
Furthermore Galien, despite the critical importance of "Love", it is not the centre of Christianity, Jesus Christ is. If we are to be truly Christian then we are called as Ian rightly pointed out, to follow Jesus. This is the literal translation of "Christian", follower of Christ, and it clearly teaches that Christ's instruction MUST be of a higher importance than our own thoughts.
For me, love is the centre of Christianity. For some its faith, for others prayer. I don't believe the Bible makes it clear that there is a "centre". For me, and my heart, the part that tells me I can do all the other things but if I have not love I am nothing is the thing that resonates in my spirit. The bible also tells me that God is love. Even Jesus himself said to love god with all your heart soul mind and strength and your neighbour as yourself, on this turns all the law and the prophets. So I figured he thought it was pretty important.
It is our calling Galien to preach the truth of the Word of God, that people may repent of their sins whether small or great and see the Righteousness of God. Jesus sacrifice has broken the power of Sin, the real message is that we are not only free from a guilty verdict, but that the power of the tempter has been broken. We can now choose to live exactly the life that God always intended for us.
Choice being the operative word. Most people do not give a flying fig about god, his word, or what they should be doing. After the horrible, horrible things I have seen christians do and say, it is a much harder job to present the gospel to others than it used to be. Most people I know would not spit on christians if they were on fire. There is a reason for that, and a lot of the time it has to do with the judgemental superior way we do it.
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I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
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Sh0es
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106#
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Registered:21/01/2009
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 20:56:18)
Hi Galien,
Thanks for your sincere reply. I assure you that my heart was touched in a good way as I could actually feel the rawness of pain in your words. Pain expresses itself in many ways: Anger, Sorrow and Fear etc.
In my humble opinion, you are entirely correct that we must respect the free will of others and acknowledge that not everyone will choose Christ. There is however a big difference between acknowledging the choice of some to remain in sin and supporting it. To condone homosexual marriage is to support it, There is no way that we could support same sex marriage as being in line with God's will.
You quoted the story of the adulterous woman and her accusers, it's interesting how the book of John finishes that story: "Neither do I condemn you; go your way; from now on sin no more". Yes their is immeasurable love and grace from God, but it is not a license as Paul points out to continue in sin that grace may abound.
Luke 9: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
No-one has suggested that feelings or inclinations are sins, the sin comes when we follow after our natural desires. Jesus made it clear that to truly be a follower of Christ, we must deny our desires and look to God's. Of course you are doing the right thing to show the same compassion God showed you, to your sister. This same love and compassion is what we extend to every person we meet.
In the case of homosexual marriage the word makes clear that marriage takes place between a man and a woman. Sin is sin and whether we are discussing homosexuality, fornication, lying or any other sin you can name, we are discussing human behaviour that is outside the plan of God. The fulfilment of the "Will of God" must be our guide and our prayer. All I suggest is that you keep loving the sinner but perhaps rethink supporting an avenue that would take these people even further from God's plan of redemption? Just a gentle suggestion.
God is love; That is a wonderfully true statement in in 1 John 4, but it also says: "1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for [fn] our sins." It continues on to chapter 5
1Jo 5:3-4 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
God's love is one that has given us the power through Jesus sacrifice to overcome our desires and the power of sin.
We can tell others that same thing in faith.
God bless
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tommo
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107#
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Rank:Member IV
Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:25/06/2009 21:12:07)
All
Where do Christians stand on the subject of the Government recognising de-facto relationships (between Men and Women) as having the same legal rights as a traditional Marriage?
Tommo
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misterkilometres
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108#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3100
Posts:128
Registered:11/06/2008
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Reply to Tommo
(Date Posted:26/06/2009 00:14:35)
Hello Tommo,
Speaking for myself and my own opinion, I think the fact that the government has taken over the administration of marriages and divorces etc, and de-facto and same sex unions, from the Church, means that apart from having a priest - or in the case of rc's - a pastor - perform the ceremony, there is not much difference. It seems the Roman Empire had better standards as far as administration of these than our State does today.
As a Christian, and a divorced one at that, I will not marry again. I will take the Apostle Paul's advise and seek not to be married. Considering the state of our society, also the lopsided divorce laws and amount of immorality out there, perpetrated by both sexes alike, why on earth would one seek to be married.
When i look at the "rights" issues of de-facto versus marrieds - is it not more about divorce than marriage? You only need to assert the "rights" during a divorce. No-one is stopping anyone from getting together. There are no legal disadvantages now between de-facto or marrieds. No-one is stopping pre-nuptual or other agreements to be brought into the situation either.
Live and let live I say. If people who do not beleive the bible want de-facto - that is their right. They "should" be well aware of the "rights" but also the "responsabilities" and perhaps future " liabilities" that may be incurred should they divorce. If you sign a contract - any contract - including a marriage certificate - you need to know what you are up for. And if you do not agree to what the "state" legislate about the matter, we are all free to pre-nup or sign a legal agreement before hand that may ensure a more biblical and fair outcome in case of divorce.
Mr Klms
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“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
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Reality_Bites
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109#
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Rank:Lurker
Score:240
Posts:12
Registered:29/10/2008
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RE:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:28/06/2009 03:55:39)
Why are people so hypocritical? From what I heard, MrK took his wife for everything he could – and more! However – if anyone is going to comment on the legalities of divorce – and how to take your partner to the cleaners – MrK would know best.
I find it particularly funny how Mr K is worried about morality. His comments “Considering the state of our society, also the lopsided divorce laws and amount of immorality out there, perpetrated by both sexes alike, why on earth would one seek to be married.” are a joke. It is like a thief complaining that the stuff he has stolen is at risk of being taken by someone else.
Maybe Mr K should take more of the Apostle Pauls Advice (love, compassion, etc) – and not try to justify his future actions by quoting this Apostle.
Oh – and wasn’t Mr K engaged after cheating on his first wife. Maybe the problem isn’t with others . . . . .
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misterkilometres
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110#
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Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3100
Posts:128
Registered:11/06/2008
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Reply to RB
(Date Posted:28/06/2009 05:31:22)
Reality Bites,
As far as my divorce goes - I don't recall seeing you involved with the lawyers - your comments are rude and pure conjecture.
For my morality comment - I don't think I am wrong.
As for my actions - I already have a judge, His position has not been advertised in the positions vacant collumns as far as I see - so stop trying to do His job.
As for me being "engaged" - more conjecture. I am cellibant.
Fact is - you just don't know my business as well as you think. Or perhaps your source of information may not be reliable, informed, or just plain biased. Either way, you merely attempting to assinate my character, doesn't make anything you say true or informed.
I have been upfront about my sin when I joined this forum. It took me a while to sort myself out, but I did, with God's help, and the support of the Anglican Church. I have reformed my behaviour, and am content to live a single cellibant God honouring life. That is the reality. That is the power of Christ, and His power of restoration and reconcilliation.
Now I say to you - pax et bonum.
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“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
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Aimoo Team
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:28/06/2009 06:59:27)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
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Im_out
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112#
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Registered:02/01/2009
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE
(Date Posted:28/06/2009 07:44:25)
I met your Ex once at convention Mr K, and once was enough, I can see why you'd go without, and give up on marrage altogether. Hopfully you will finaly have some peace in your life now. :)
Unless a person has walked in that persons shoes and experianced what they have seen, heard, felt and been through, nobody has the right to judge another. As Jesus said, "He who is without sin let him cast the first stone".
Im_out
Revival Centres the Exclusive Brethren of the Pentecostal world
(Message edited by Im_out On 28/06/2009 10:42:53)
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