Remember all those of you who have sat in SILENCE when you should have spoken out, being neither hot nor cold, you will be spewed out of His mouth! Evil men prosper if the righteous are not brave enough to make a stand for what they know is the TRUTH! Now the Creditors Report is out Duker, Longfield, Samoilenko can no longer rely on their lies to cover the truth.

Well said Outa, in total agreeance.

This saying is one to bear in mind if you're attending RCI and don't like what is happening:

“WHAT YOU TOLERATE YOU SUPPORT”

Do you choose to tolerate (support) corruption? Oppression? Malice? Favouritism? Greed?

By remaining, you are showing your support of these things, support to man (church)...

Your loyalty should lie with God, not any particular church, doctrine or leader. We were called into relationship with Jesus, not a loyalty to doctrine & teachings...worship Him, not them...what will you choose? Even though you may not feel it, you actually do have a choice, make it.

God Bless,
Freedom Found

Former AFL star says ASIC failed him

Gold Coast correspondent Ross Stapleton writes:

Former AFL player Craig O’Brien, a prominent victim of alleged fraudulent property and investment scams by preying ex-Gold CoasterGlenn Duker has told Crikey he’s been financially ruined by the swindle and that it’s cost him two Coast homes.

A furious O’Brien remains incredulous at how "the system" failed him in the aftermath of being deceived by the former high living solicitor turned pastor, who’s left scores of victims scattered around Australia as a result of alleged fraudulent activities going back at least six years from 2008. But O’Brien, who played 102 games at three AFL clubs between 1989-97 and now coaches in the local senior league, has told Crikey that as much as he’s upset at being duped by the "shonky" Duker, he’s even more upset at the way corporate watchdog ASIC and legal advice has failed him.

Some estimates put the overall alleged swindles engineered by the disgraced former head pastor at the Gold Coast chapter of Melbourne-based Pentecostal Revival Centres International (RCI) church at Mermaid Beach at somewhere between $30-$40 million. It’s alleged the high-flying pastor lived a life of extravagant luxury while based on the Coast and continued to do so even after being stood down from his post.

Church leadership out of Melbourne continues to defend Duker as an innocent victim of the GFC. But although ASIC is now investigating him and his business associates, with civil litigation also pending against him and others from various third parties, O’Brien says this has come too late for him. In fact he is scathing of an earlier ASIC intervention that failed to shut Duker down following complaints made to it in 2006.

"What’s happened has been real hard for me," O’Brien explains.

"Between what I’ve lost off him and what I’ve had to get rid of to make ends meet, I’m about $900,000 out of pocket. I originally met him through a real estate agent who told me he had someone who was interested in buying my home which was for sale. He (Duker) had a consultant who looked at it and said that they loved the property, and then explained what they did.

"I would get $940,000 on the contract price of $1.35 million and we agreed he owed me $45,000 a year on interest with the balance to be paid off in two years. So I gave him debtor finance where he paid me 70% of the purchase price and I agreed for him to pay the other 30% at 10% interest. But it was going to be $380,000 paid in the first year and another $48,000 to be paid in the second year plus interest.

"At the time I said I wasn’t too familiar with this sort of deal and I needed to go to a solicitor who was familiar with this. He (Duker) recommended I go to a [legal firm] here on the Coast where he had done deals before. We then checked him out with a fine tooth comb which cost me $5000 to do all the searches. But then after agreeing the deal in July 2007, I started to get alarmed because he was meant to pay me three months in advance, but I never got the first payment on the balance.

"I was making calls to him and he kept saying how he wanted to catch up with me, but he was stalling all the time. Then three months into the agreement he now owes me two lots of interest which was more than $20,000 and still not returning calls. Then I accidentally ran into him at the airport and I put the hard word on him and said: 'Listen mate start paying me what you owe’' Then he paid me $20,000 and I got nothing after that.

"What made it so concerning was then when I rang my lawyer to help get this sorted out; he said it didn’t surprise him as he owed him money too. And I said: 'Well why did you let me go ahead with the deal if he owes you money?'"

To which O’Brien told Crikey, the lawyer did not respond.

"I had sought legal advice because it was unfamiliar to me because I’m a builder where I buy and renovate houses and then sell them. Normally I can carry that sort of (financial) weight for 12 months. I had borrowed $200,000 from an in-law to buy my next house. But once I realised Duker was going bad; because I had used his money to cover the mortgage, I then had to sell my property for $200,000 under market value just to get out."

"I couldn’t afford the repayments and didn’t want to default on that because I buy and sell property. I do one property a year on my own and also carry out work on other people’s properties. I’ve still got a $60,000 mortgage on that."

O'Brien has now got together with other victims including a Gold Coast woman who having lost her home to Duker, was forced to live in her car with no means of support.

"There are four of us here who’ve got together with similar situations where we’re all doing it as hard as each other. He’s wiped my real estate right out and I’ve been left with a big debt where I’m struggling to make ends meet with work real quiet too. I’m defaulting with things here and there and I’m just trying to keep my head above water. I’m now living day to day with no money and every time I do get money it goes straight out to debtors.

"He’s very smart the way that he’s done it -- it’s dead set fraud," O’Brien claimed to Crikey.

"There’s no doubt he was a smooth talker and I’ve got to give him credit -- he’s a genuine con man. It’s only looking back now I can see how everything he told me was all bullsh-t. I only met him once and the rest of our conversations were on the phone chasing him for money.

"But what disappoints me more than anything is where was my protection from this sort of thing? A big government body like ASIC should have stopped him back in 2006 when it investigated him when he was trading insolvent. If they had enforced what they’re there to do then he wouldn’t have got people like me because he wouldn’t have been able to be a director of a company or able to borrow any more money. But I think a lot of people from his church told them he had done nothing wrong.

"I don’t give a sh-t about the church, but I’ve lost everything I’ve ever worked for and now I’ve got a huge debt, because they didn’t stop him."

O’Brien and his victim group employed a private detective in 2008 to follow Duker and his wife for more than a week in Melbourne, where he is believed to continue to practice as a solicitor.

"We wanted to find out what he was up to and discovered he was paying $1700 a week for a decoy house, which they don’t live in. He pays rent but doesn’t live there so people don’t know where he does live. I tell you he’s a smart man -- no one can normally find him. His kids go to a private school and his wife was driving a nice BMW," an unimpressed O’Brien alleged.

Perhaps some alert Crikey reader can fill us in if they have current knowledge as to the whereabouts and employment of Glenn Duker? Email boss@crikey.com.au

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/04/23/the-pastor-his-ponzi-scheme-and-a-fleeced-flock/

The Pastor, his Ponzi scheme and a fleeced flock

The liquidator of a company that had been operated by a former Gold Coast pastor and solicitor as a form of “Ponzi” scheme that’s alleged to have defrauded investors of millions while using these funds to lead an extravagant lifestyle is now intent on pursuing civil actions against the pastor, his family and the company auditor. Creditors met in Sydney yesterday to be met with a report by Bruce Gleeson of Jones Partners, the Sydney chartered accountants acting as liquidator of RVP Group Limited. The report detailed how former Mermaid Beach pastor Glenn Philip Duker, 38, entered into various property scams allowing him to buy and sell million dollar homes that has left an estimated shortfall of $8-10 million in RVP’s company accounts. One prominent victim is former AFL player Craig O’Brien who now lives on the Gold Coast. However, there are even more victims tied into other investor schemes independent of RVP’s structure that some estimates have put as high as an additional $30 million from a multitude of corporate shells set up by Duker. The pastor declared himself bankrupt in January, and is now believed to be again practicing law in Melbourne. “Now he’s declared his bankruptcy, he can still be held to account for certain breaches of the companies act that took place, that would be of interest to ASIC let alone anyone else,” Gleeson told Crikey. Gleeson says although victims are scattered across Australia, most of RVP’s affairs involved investors from Queensland, particularly the Gold Coast. Duker entered into agreements with mostly individuals, principally mum and dad investors who were procured by way of joint ventures or preference shares in shell companies. Despite RVP never reporting a profit during its existence, Gleeson told creditors that not only was the company trading while insolvent but particularly from 2006 onwards the company was “defaulting on more and more” of the regular interest payment investors were meant to receive. “RVP operated much like a Ponzi scheme,” Gleeson said. “To the extent that at some point in time in these Ponzi schemes  — when the music stops there are creditors that are inevitably owed money because schemes like this always rely on the influx of new money.” Gleeson confirmed to Crikey that ASIC is also mounting its own investigations into the conduct of RVP and that of its directors, which included Duker’s wife Lorilea, and brother Mathew. The role of Melbourne-based company auditor Allan Walker is also very much in the sights of Gleeson, and bound to figure prominently in ASIC’s ongoing investigations. Glenn Duker moved to the Gold Coast seven years ago where he undertook conveyance work, while also setting himself up in property development from 2002. In the following years he persuaded investors, including members of the Pentecostal Revival Centres International (RCI) church at Mermaid Beach where he became pastor, to enter into investor agreements with him. RCI has been frequently likened to a cult after being founded in Victoria in 1958, and now claims some 300 chapters globally. Its fundamentalist followers believe members must speak in tongues to be saved. Duker was devout in following an extra-curricular form of personal saving outside the church — Gleeson estimates there are around 30 individual victims caught out by the activities of RVP. While Duker was finally dismissed from his pastoral post after several years of complaints, an earlier 2006 ASIC investigation failed to halt his continuing scams, resulting in many millions more being lost by his victims. His brother continues to be a RCI pastor. As Gleeson explained to Crikey, he’s found the way RCI has been a most reluctant witness in assisting his examination deeply disturbing. RCI has also publicly defended Duker as another innocent victim of the GFC: I think what this has shown to me is that you have a scenario where it’s convenient for RCI to blame external and global factors on the failure of a company when really those things weren’t in play at the time. Certainly the evidence they gave under examination I believe was inconsistent. It gets back to this situation where what needs to be established is that once they were on notice that Glenn Duker, who was in a position of a high level of trust being a head pastor of the Gold Coast chapter  — once they were on notice that he was potentially using that position to obtain monies for the activities of RVP  — did they satisfactorily deal with the concerns being raised? Even to this day the reluctance of them to deal with the overwhelming information before them has been a little bit staggering, and while I don’t know the internal policies of how they deal with pastors or members where complaints have been made, there is a question mark put over whether they have acted on a timely enough basis once it knew of the seriousness of the complaints being raised. RCI seemed to be waiting and waiting for more information and I think that served no other purpose than to antagonise members that have invested in RVP that were looking to it to take an appropriate stance with regard to Mr Duker. Gleeson confirmed church members have expressed their consternation to him at the way they have been treated by RCI, but said it was a matter for individual members to comment on whether they had faced intimidation or pressure from their church over their desire to pursue Duker. But the liquidator told Crikey he’s also very concerned by the role played by auditor Allan Walker. “My focus is also quantifying the action against Mr Walker. The fact that the company operated at a loss each year and the fact that under oath Mr Duker and Mr Walker gave inconsistent evidence about how many properties the companies actually had an interest in, is of grave concern to me,” says Gleeson. “…at no point in time during any of the years in which the company made a loss [revealed in] the financial statements which Mr Walker audited … did he give a qualified opinion. That’s where an auditor is concerned about a company’s ongoing ability to meet its debts as and when they fall due.”

A Christian perspective of leadership in society is based on three fundamental biblical principles:

1. The priesthood of all believers.
2. The universal human need for leadership. 
3. The servant nature of leadership

Leadership will only be effective and safe if a balance is kept of these three perspectives.

1.  The Priesthood of all Believers
Every person is responsible to give account to God for his or her own life. There is no sense in which a king, minister, governor, leader, boss, leader, captain, or pastor has any titled premium on God's presence or favour. God communicates through His Holy Spirit to every person who personally desires a relationship with Him and is willing to approach Him through faith in the atoning work of Christ. 

Biblical Christian leadership, then, is not a matter of a leader standing between God and another person as 'God's representative' (that is, a 'priest'). Nor is leadership a matter of the leader’s unlimited authority over another person's life such that questioning the authority of a leader's opinions about a matter is automatically equated to disobedience to God.

In the light of this concept, then, leaders need to see themselves in the role of exercising real authority, but their authority is limited to specific areas and times in the lives of people who are, ultimately, accountable only to God. For example, the boss in a business has real authority over the worker inasmuch as he is dealing with a matter of employment, but outside of that, the boss has no authority. 

Church leaders have a special God-given responsibility to 'watch over the souls' of people who commit themselves to pastoral care. The role of this kind of leadership is identified in Scripture as that of the 'undershepherd'; that is, church leaders serve those they lead entirely on behalf of the Chief Shepherd, Jesus. The image of the shepherd is one of a servant who leads sheep to places of sustenance and safety and protects them from outside harm and from foolishness within. Similarly, church leaders exercise authority only to help people to better understand God and to walk in obedience to Him. People may choose, (but cannot be forced to) submit to the care of church leaders and obey them appropriately as a part of their submission to the care and authority of God. 

Human imperfection has led to many abuses of church authority, so we are wise to be careful to see that a church leader’s exercise of authority is always open to scrutiny and accountability in the light of God’s word. 

The concept of the ‘priesthood of all believers’ also has implications for the method of operation of leadership. Leaders can see the people they lead as a means to make the leaders’ vision, mission, or ministry more successful - and people become ‘pawns’ in the leader’s great game of life. Alternatively, leaders can see the people they lead as God's servants, gifted potential ministers of God’s kingdom into the society around them. The latter kind of leader will want to see the people they lead become more successful in their walk with and service of God. Such leaders will look to nurture people's gifts, encourage them to find God's peculiar call on their lives, and seek to release them to minister where God calls them.
2.  The universal need for leadership
A thoughtful perusal of the Bible leaves one in no doubt that God identifies we humans (somewhat unflatteringly!) as 'sheep' in need of shepherding. This is obviously true in a broader social context than our spiritual need of the Great Shepherd or of church discipleship. In all spheres of life (political, economic, scientific, educational, cultural etc), creative and productive development invariably follows the vision and action of gifted leaders. Conversely, communities without visionary and strong leadership suffer disillusionment, dissipation, lack of progress, and, eventually, social disintegration.
It seems that God’s plan for the peaceful, free, and prosperous operation of human community has properly constituted human leadership as one of its key elements. 
3.  The servant nature of leadership
In his training of His leaders-to-be, Jesus distinguished between 'gentilic' (self-seeking) leadership  and leadership that is based on the principles of humility and service (e.g., Matthew 20:24–28). The essential difference between these two kinds of leadership is the attitude of the leaders to themselves and the people they lead.
Jesus indicates that only the servant kind of leadership will be of use in the building of His eternal kingdom, so there is an obvious application of His teaching to Church leaders, Christian parents, and other Christian leaders. 
Distinguishing between the attitudes of 'gentilic' and servant leadership, however, is just as relevant to leadership in any sphere of society, whether the leaders and those being led are Christian or not. A biblical Christian perspective of leadership will make any leader, Christian or otherwise, more capable of leading in a way that is appropriate for the development of a free, peaceful and productive community. 

The biblical Christian perspective of leadership is characterized by an attitude of service. Leaders see themselves as the servants of those that they lead. In contrast to self-seeking leaders, who may seek to further their own reputation, profit, egos, or programs by using those they lead as 'consumer items', servant leaders put self-interest aside to look to the needs of the people they lead and to enhance the mission of the organization that they serve. The mission-mindedness and passion of servant leaders is tempered by their refusal to abuse people in reaching their productivity goals. Servant leaders will inspire and empower people to find their place and function within an organization rather than bully or manipulate them. When correction needs to be brought by a servant leader, it will be done with the best interests of both the one being corrected and the mission of the organization concerned.
Whether in the Church, business, politics, or volunteer organizations, the biblical Christian 'formula' for leadership will be effective in producing orderly, peaceful, productive, and pleasant community. This is illustrated by the fact that much contemporary leadership theory, although it is not all ostensibly Christian, advocates the application of some of these principles to modern business and organizational culture. 

(Message edited by Im_out On 13/05/2009 05:26:42)

(Message edited by cultevasion On 17/05/2009 05:28:22)

I seems that people are asking about this Duker affair. The funny thing is they are getting told some interesting answers. Not that many of the RCI folk know about this site (which is understandable). At the recent Coff Harbour camp at Easter Simon was asked about what he thought of the situation. To which he allegedly replied "I wish people would follow the rules". I was somewhat dismayed at this answer. Considering that when Simon took over RCI he changed the rules and redrafted them as Living the Life or something to that effect. In which there was nothing about doing business in the church. BUT then in 2007 a (by revalation LOL) redraft was drawn! You now must inform the oversite when doing business with people in the church.... Ok then I gather all the Pastors knew this as they were INVOLVED!!!! Apprently no one questioned Simoin over this..... LAME!!!
There are a number of people who are not very happy about the situation at all, the handling the lies that is being told etc..etc.. If this does go to court, or if the RCI is sued I am guessing the judge will have a little chuckle to himself at which the manner that this has been delt with.
On the other side most people in the RCI do not know much about it becuase it is really none of thier business, unless you where close to the affected area (the hot spot). I even talked to someone about it recently who had only a small idea about it (was told by oversite). I then told them the whole story (as to what I know), and didn't choose sides. They couldn't believe it! So I told them to check it out for themselves. They are most disgusted and like me believe that the Lord will sort the wrong doers out. I hope it is quickly too!
Not all in RCI are liking what is going on with this Duker.
 

There might be a special version of the "Living the Life" rules designed especially for the leaders and entitled "Living the Life of Riley."

Epi

Hi Epi,

Hi Cultevasion,

Living the Life of Riley is an old saying,  probably of Irish/Irish American origin, meaning enjoying the "good life" (leasure, comfort, ease) often on the money and/or time of others.

A good example is a 2007 news headline "MP's No More, But Living The Life Of Riley" which was an article on the huge taxpayer funded expenses of former MPs on non accountable domestic and overseas air travel plus chauffeur driven cars etc over a 6 month period from July to Dec. 2006.

Some of the leaders of the mega pente churches in particular live quite luxurious lives on church tithes and RCI leaders (Pastor L and his mansion) also fare quite well from tithes.

Epi

(Message edited by outaegypt On 03/06/2009 22:44:13)

June 2nd, 2009

THE bankruptcy trustee to former Mermaid Beach Pentecostal pastor-cum-failed businessman Glenn Duker has sought federal money to pursue his investigations further.

Dennis Turner, of PKF Chartered Accountants, yesterday took the unusual step of requesting funding from the federal bankruptcy administrator, the Insolvency and Trustee Service Australia.

Mr Turner, in his application to ITSA, said further investigation was warranted by the high level of public interest and the complexity of Mr Duker's business affairs.

Mr Duker has personal debts, including personal guarantees, of about $34.5 million.

His business affairs involved 36 companies, including a family investment company.

Mr Duker, believed to be in Melbourne, filed for bankruptcy in January after the collapse of his company RVP Group.

The company, which was tied up in buying and selling property on the Gold Coast, was placed in liquidation last year.

Many of Mr Duker's creditors are believed to be involved with a revivalist sect, including fellow pastors.

The list of creditors against his estate runs to 22 pages, including both proven debts and those under review.

Mr Turner asked creditors to fund further investigation, but he said none had come forward, leaving ITSA the sole remaining option.

In his application, Mr Turner cited Mr Duker's numerous company structures requiring scrutiny for recoverable assets, the vast number of creditors and staggering extent of shortfall.

If the application is successful, Mr Turner will examine Mr Duker under oath, together with his spouse, accountant and possibly others.

He said he intended to investigate all transfers of funds, possible overseas transfers and voidable transactions, and any undisclosed assets.

"I am not sure whether further investigation will uncover additional funds for creditors because, to date, we have only been able to scratch the surface, which makes additional funding imperative," he said.

(Message edited by outaegypt On 04/06/2009 08:39:55)

Found this in the Herald Sun as well at http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25571917-5014150,00.html

Trustee wants funds for bankruptcy probe

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(Message edited by outaegypt On 09/06/2009 01:13:54)

 Ezekiel 34

   ¹And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

   ²Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of RCI, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of RCI that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

   ³Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool from tithes and the Mission Fund (a black hole), ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

   ⁴The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them, manipulating and deceiving them, and shown no remorse.

   ⁵And they were scattered, because there is no honest shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

   ⁶My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them though it is your duty all Pastors of RCI.

   ⁷Therefore, ye shepherds of the RCI folk, hear the word of the LORD;

   ⁸As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

   ⁹Therefore, O ye shepherds of RCI, hear the word of the LORD;

   ¹⁰Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the RCI shepherds; and I will require my flock at your hand Simon, Victor, and the rest of you Pastors of RCI; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more from taking of the tithes and Mission Fund; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

   ¹¹For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out, those innocent ones that you have condemned.

   ¹²As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

 Lorilea Duker has filed  Bankruptcy.

 Conversations from Convention:

Ya gotta wonder if anyone in a leadership position (pastor, houseleader etc) has any wisdom or cojones given that they submit to these twits. And what their submission does to their "flocks" is mind boggling.
 
If any of you are reading this, for goodness sake **think**. As Peter Kay used to say, "You're not playing trains."

Allow me to plagiarize an ancient "Melbourne/Croydon/Frankston Guidlines" sheet:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock - Also of your own selves men shall arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch and remember for the space of three years I ceased not to warn everyone night and day with tears." (Acts 20:28-31).

.....How do you hear this stuff.....?? And how many people has it sifted through to get to you??

 Is it just me or has anyone else noticed the statistics on this particular thread?

Lorilea Dukers personal Liquidation is being claimed a debt of $11Million, numerous creditors have not been declared, so there will be a few more Million to account for yet.

        One size fits all !!

..

 just wanted to mention a little something , matthew duker was never stood down as pastor by anyone he chose to stand down until all this is over,  so get it right or dont mention it at all :D

Can you provide some tangible evidence of proof ???  The size of this iniquity now totally some $66 million, is some clear indication that this will not be "until all this is over" anytime too soon.. Especially with the media rumours of the Australian Federal Police now being involved ... Perhaps certain current Pastors of the RCI may also find themselves stuck up to their necks in very deep mire before it is all over..

But as to your comment, perhaps Mathew Duker was politely asked to step down in order to cover up any impropriety that may be observable by the rank and file members of the RCI... Commonly called: "damage control" !!

Metanoia

  just wanted to mention a little something , matthew duker was never stood down as pastor by anyone he chose to stand down until all this is over,  so get it right or dont mention it at all :D


Hi Teej

Isn't he a great bloke then? helping his bro' rip everyone off blind and then kindly withdrew his services as a Pastor... says more about the RCI "leadership" than anything else.

First of all... we were always told the Lord raises up the oversight.. what? did God have a bad day when he appointed the Dukers. Putting them up to be pastors is like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank!

I assume, from your post, that you are an apologist for the Dukers? Or perhaps another Revivalist Ostrich?

The Lord raises up the oversight?

Piffle. Never believed it the whole 9 years I was in it. Just another old boy's club full of yes men. Wasn't rocket science to work out hardly any cared one iota for the people they were supposed to oversee. Pass me a bucket to throw up in.

 tommo in response to your "I assume, from your post, that you are an apologist for the Dukers? Or perhaps another Revivalist Ostrich?"
 I know the dukers  yes  , but that is beside the point i dont know them well enough to make any judgments  i happen to believe in let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and also believe in the everyone is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, thing this country has going for it you know.
 I am also a great believer in people telling something exactly how it is not taking little bits here and there to suit their purposes  as the media seems to do and lot of the posters here seem to do.
It may take a while for the court proceedings to finish and if they are found guilty then so be it they are guilty if not then i am behind them all the way and am behind them all the way until the court proceedings have finished I wasnt there personaly as i can guarantee majority of you werent either when the supposed crime was committed so i cannot say one way or another  not sure that you people can realy either you just out baying for blood ......

Teeej, the Bible is VERY SPECIFIC of the need for ALL the members of the Body of Christ to exercise accountability and in particularly for those  in a position of Overseer to be WITHOUT REPROACH....  this thread is not after anyone's blood.. Have a read of 1 Cor.5:11 

Metanoia 

PS: "Now it is necessary also for a good testimony to have from those outside so that he may not fall into reproach and a trap of the devil.." - 1 Tim. 3:7 (my verbal translation)


(Message edited by Metanoian On 19/07/2009 15:03:52)

 Teeej,

If you want to apply the "he who is without sin" bollocks then that would mean no-one can cast the first stone right? as according to your beliefs anyone without glossalia is a sinner. The laws of the land dictate that a "first stone", so to speak, must be cast in order to hold people accountable for their actions.

As for supporting the Dukers until they are found guilty.... you are simply hiding behind a cop-out, A declaration of bankruptcy is virtually an admission of liability, all that needs to be determined is whether they EVER intended to pay anyone for borrowed monies. It is a fact, which is undisputed, that they borrowed money they could not repay... that is unethical and illegal.

As a revivalist, you seem unconcerned with the unethical behaviour of your Pastors when it comes to violation of decencies, forcing battered women back into abusive relationships, forcing teens to get married despite overwhelming evidence that the marriages dont last... the list goes on. It's only when something hits the front pages of the newspaper that you want to hide behing the "innocent until proven guilty" thing... So dont lecture me about what makes this country great.... I am well aware of that... I can tell you what doesnt make it great.... Despotic Pastors and the dim-wits who blindly follow them and their religious dogma to serve their own ends, wake up Teeej

 the calm before the storm......

All,

I think it good if we remembered the Williams family in our prayers..

blessings

Metanoia


(Message edited by Metanoian On 22/08/2009 20:25:21)

The Mole understands that Glenn and Lorelei Duker no longer worship/fellowship at any of the Melbourne Assemblies.

Not sure whether they have been excluded or have withdrawn voluntarily.

Mole

Hi Mole, Can you give us any idea what role Simon Longfield plays in the RCI as of late ???

Metanoia

Glenn was asked to leave after the report came through. It basically called him a lair. From what I know he told PS one thing and the report said another. PS was taking his word for it even though people were calling for his blood. PS told Glenn if there was any evidence brought to him that Glenn was in the wrong, he would be put out. When PS was shown the report it contradicted what Glenn has told PS so basically Glen shot himself in the foot. So as I have been made aware he was asked to leave. This was sometime ago now and he has not been fellowship at any RCI meetings. I am not sure about his wife, I imagine she is in the same boat.
He was also told by PS to pay back the money he owns to people, he said he is trying too or can't becuase he has none...
Even when being ask to leave Glenn still said that he was innocent. Hopefully it will see trial and the whole mess will be seen to by a judge.

I have also heard that a lot of people are blaming PS for what has happened. I would like to see what reason that is and if the people who are blaming him know first hand what happened rather than hearsay. In a court room if you were not present at the words spoken it is called hearsay, so I would like to hear from people WHO were there.
I believe that no matter what PS did with this matter there are always people going to see that he is wrong.
In the long and the short of it ALL the people who dealt with Glenn Duker did it off there own back, NO one held a gun to there head and said sign here. If people are so stupid to sign there lives away without getting a lawyer/third party etc..etc.. opinion, that is their problem, NOT anyone elses.
And cry as much as you like you are still the person who signed it.
When PS was told about what was going on he rang people/pastors and told them to get out of it and not do this in the church. In the end it is still up to the individual to do the right thing.  

Alas I feel sorry for all the people who have been involved with the greedy character, he certianly lead quite a few people down the garden path, much like a lot of investors have trying to get peoples money.

Hi, Rob.

To put matters simply, you haven't heard even one tenth of the facts of the matter. I'd suggest that Simon is far more complicit in what's taken place than you realise, and so my advice? Watch this space

Blessings,

Ian

Hi Ian,

That could be true in what you say, But I would not bet on that. I think this thing is such a big mess that's why it will be good for the courts to sort it out.

I do have a question for you (or anyone for that matter) though, How was PS suppose to stop it Or how would have you handled it from the begining? I am not asking this to be sarcastic I am interested in how you think it should have been dealt with in the first place.

I know it is easy to criticize people in the way they deal with things or even to look back and go, "I would handle that this way or that way". But when it is something you haven't come across before it's a different matter. Now in saying that I am not defending anyone, simply because I was not there. and I don't like to listen to hearsay because you can then take sides to easily.

If it goes to court we will just have to see what the judge says, and whatever he says is fine with me, I hope it is the same for everyone else too.

Hi, Robb.

That could be true in what you say, But I would not bet on that. I think this thing is such a big mess that's why it will be good for the courts to sort it out.

I'm sure you wouldn't bet on what I shared being true, but then again, I'd suggest that you're not particularly well-informed about the matter. As I've mentioned earlier, watch this space.

I do have a question for you (or anyone for that matter) though, How was PS suppose to stop it Or how would have you handled it from the begining? I am not asking this to be sarcastic I am interested in how you think it should have been dealt with in the first place.

Given that Simon was advised of the broad contours of the incident almost from the "get-go", one could rightly assume that he should have: (a) attempted to speak with all of the people concerned in the matter from the outset. He didn't. Furthermore, as the head of the RCI Simon should have, (b) attempted to gather sufficient information to reach an informed conclusion as to the likelihood of the claims being true. He didn't. And finally, that Simon should have, (c) done everything in his power to minimise the impact on all of the the people involved, and on the assembly as a whole. He didn't. 

I know it is easy to criticize people in the way they deal with things or even to look back and go, "I would handle that this way or that way". But when it is something you haven't come across before it's a different matter. Now in saying that I am not defending anyone, simply because I was not there. and I don't like to listen to hearsay because you can then take sides to easily.

Indeed. But the fact remains that Simon was advised very early as to what was allegedly going on, and then from several sources (both within the RCI and without). In spite of this, he chose to sit on his hands. Given that Simon Longfield is paid to provide leadership within the RCI, a little leadership in this instance would probably have gone a long way.

If it goes to court we will just have to see what the judge says, and whatever he says is fine with me, I hope it is the same for everyone else too.

From what I've been informed, the only people who probably won't be happy with the eventual legal outcomes will be: Simon Longfield, Vic Samoilenko, the Dukers and their ever-dwindling band of supporters. One simply doesn't become embroiled in one of Australia's largest investment frauds and walk away, spot-free.

Blessings,

Ian

Given that Simon was advised of the broad contours of the incident almost from the "get-go", one could rightly assume that he should have: (a) attempted to speak with all of the people concerned in the matter from the outset. He didn't. Furthermore, as the head of the RCI Simon should have, (b) attempted to gather sufficient information to reach an informed conclusion as to the likelihood of the claims being true. He didn't. And finally, that Simon should have, (c) done everything in his power to minimise the impact on all of the the people involved, and on the assembly as a whole. He didn't. 

God forbid that adults shoud be ALLOWED to be adults. If anyone makes a poor financial decision, then the consequences of that decision fall in their lap, no one else's. They are the ones who chose to trust the person, why is it up to anyone else to do their research for them?

When will religious "leaders" (read pathological control freaks) wake up and let christians grow up and live their own lives, without their constant interference? More importantly when will these grown up children learn that they don't need to be parented by these idiots?

Lastly, when will human beings generally get over the blame game? Stuff happens, it is far more productive to put energy into fixing the mess instead of pointing the finger.

Agreed, people must be accountable for their choices, however, most of the simpletons in revival organisations (or broader christian groups for that matter) place a huge amount of trust in their leadership on a range of issues. It then follows that leadership/management, particularly those in paid positions have something of a duty to ensure the dealings in their church are legal.

I was always bemused by the hard and fast  RCI rule about no financial dealings with other church members.... Doesn't this imply that your fellow church members are not to be trusted. I have financial dealings with all sorts of people and manage to keep it all above board, why cant they?

Hi, Thommo.

The issue in this instance, certainly insofar as the Courts are concerned; revolves around the fact that the Dukers engaged in their money-making schemes directly with their parishoners, with members of the "flock" whom they "groomed" specifically for the purpose of "fleecing". The fact of the very strong RCI pastor-congregant relationship, based as it is on an upwards focussed degree of implicit trust, led to the presumption that what took place was perceived to be an abuse of spiritual authority.

However, insofar that Simon Longfield was aware that two men whom he credentialed as ministers of religion were actively engaging in dubious business dealings within the captive audience that is the RCI, but did nothing about it, is also an issue of concern. Of course the possibility that he perjured himself in his testimony to the Courts is a consideration as well, and time will no doubt tell on that particular issue. To summarise a little ancient Christian wisdom that we should always consider:

"Flee with great haste from the Churchman who is also a businessman!" St. Jerome.

Blessings,

Ian

"Flee with great haste from the Churchman who is also a businessman!" St. Jerome.

Why?

Does the bible discourage parishioners from having business dealings with each other? If so what does this say abut Christians?

History would suggest that most churchmen/businessmen types do end up coming unstuck, isn't this simply a black mark against the whole religious edifice and the type of people who crave these positions of spiritual authority?

As for Simon Longfield, his published excuse of "I was too busy preaching the gospel" may cut the mustard with his parishioners but I suspect the courts are not going to buy that for one second.