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Title: The Burden of Proof
  
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(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:44:55)

 

In 1859 Charles Darwin published his book "The Origin of the Species" both scientists and Church leaders alike immediately attacked the claims he made in this book. The "Burden of Proof" for Darwin's theories was placed firmly at Darwin's feet. It was for Charles Darwin to establish that life evolved from a single cell organism, with evidence. The burden was not for other scientist or religious leaders to prove evolution false.

 

Now; almost 150 years later the "theory of Evolution" is still just that; "a theory" But an interesting thing has happened in the wider community. The "Burden of Proof" has now shifted from the Darwinist to prove their claims, to the Church and other scientist to disprove evolution and prove the existence of God or some other alternative.

 

As a result of this, shift in the "original" placement of burden. Large numbers of people now find themselves defending evolution from the standpoint that it is a basic axiom of biology, (Which it is not) rather than a theory.

 

The same type of Burden shift has occurred in relation to the receiving of the Holy Ghost and Speaking in Tongues. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost first occurred on the day of Pentecost ALL of the 120 disciples began speaking in tongues. After observing this event others also received the Holy Ghost. It is reasonable to state that those observers had an expectation of the same outward manifestation.

•1.1                         A FEW ESTABLISHED FACTS

FACT:            This event was the FIRST occurrence of the outpouring of the Holy Ghost for the remission of sin.

FACT: Speaking in tongues was identified by the Apostles as the "promised" outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as promised by the prophet Joel.

FACT: This event was witnessed by people who had a reasonable knowledge and understanding of the meaning of the promised outpouring of the Holy Ghost.

FACT: hundreds, perhaps thousands of eyewitnesses, had just witnessed this event.

 

All of these resulted in the composite FACT that there was no "burden of proof" for the Apostles or any of the 120 to prove that those who receive the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues. For this had just been verified in front of numerous witnesses. This was also a fulfilment of Jesus' statement Mar 16:17 and these signs shall follow them that believe... They shall speak with new tongues.

 

 In recent years the vast majority of religious leaders believe and teach that the "burden of proof," lies with those who profess that ALL who receive the Holy Ghost WILL speak in tongues.  In reality the burden of proof" belongs to those who say, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO speak in tongues", to prove their case by showing where this is stated in scripture.

 

It is clear as a matter of law according to the rules of legal evidence that those observing this event on the Day of Pentecost, had a reasonable expectation of the same outward manifestation as the one they had just witnessed; which was clearly confirmed to them as the promised outpouring of the Holy Ghost, given by God and explained by Peter the Apostle.

 

Those who say that you do not need to speak in tongues are saying in effect.  "It is not conclusive enough according to God's word to warrant us to have this expectation".

 

To fully test this argument, one must go to the beginning of the Church and look at the FACTS. Remembering all the while the "burden of proof" lies with those who contend that speaking in tongues are not the outward manifestation associated with the baptism or being filled with the Holy Ghost.

•1.2                         WHAT IS: "Burden of Proof?"

An evidentiary burden of proof or burden of leading evidence is: an obligation that shifts between parties over the course of the hearing or trial. A party may submit evidence that the court will consider prima facie proof of some state of affairs.
This creates an evidentiary burden upon the opposing party to present evidence to refute the presumption.


Why is this important?

Speaking in Tongues was first observed in 33AD on the Day of Pentecost.
The events, testimonies and eye witness accounts on that day, in Jerusalem; is all we have to establish on whom to place the "Burden of Proof" (as at
10am on the Day of Pentecost 33AD)

All subsequent testimonies and experiences are to be examined on the premise that when The FIRST members of the Church received the Holy Spirit, "they
ALL spoke in tongues"
Evidence is gathered and measured against this "premise" as they were established by the eye witness accounts beginning on that first day and onward.

 

In layman's terms: If anyone were asked at 12pm on that day "what happens when you receive the Holy Spirit?"
The answer is without question "you will speak in different languages"

WHEN; IF AT ALL DID THIS CHANGE?  "That is the Key Question"

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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:47:36)

First of all let’s start our examination of scripture with the directive from Jesus to the Apostles to go to Jerusalem where they would be given the promised gift of the Holy Ghost. We will spend a little time looking at that directive and the concept of remission of sin before getting into the burden of proof. We will then proceed to examine Acts one and two. We will progress through the rest of the accounts of the Holy Spirit being poured out and see whether the doctrine of tongues as evidence of the Holy Ghost baptism is supported in scripture.

 

 What you will see is that this was in fact the norm in the early church and over time the Church was infiltrated by wolves in sheep’s clothing with the express purpose of robbing people of a relationship with God and his son Jesus Christ.

 

1.1                         REMISSION OF SINS:

Speaking of the remission of sin, we read in Hebrews:

Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Note: The legalistic terms of reference)

Heb 9:18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Heb 9:19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Heb 9:20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Heb 9:21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

The Blood of Jesus is what gives us “remission” The question is this:

“Is it heresy to say that remission is contingent on more than just acknowledging that Jesus died for our sins”?

 

Let’s examine the evidence.

 

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,

Important: Understanding can only come as a gift of God. You can’t learn your way to heaven.

 

Luke 24:46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Luke 24:47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:48  And ye are witnesses of these things.

Luke 24:49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

 

Note: Here Jesus was saying that “Remission of Sins” was to “Begin at Jerusalem and this was to happen in the coming days. This is extremely important because many of these religious leaders point to any and every instance of someone receiving or being “filled with the Holy Ghost” whether Old or New Testament to substantiate their claim to disregard speaking in tongues as a legitimate evidence of salvation.

The TRUE GOSPEL is the gospel of Jesus Death, Burial and Resurrection in victory over death. Integral in the Gospel is the sanctifying Blood of Christ to purge the sinner of their sin so that they can stand before God pure and clean. The first instance of any man or woman being free from sin did not happen until the day of Pentecost. Jesus spoke of “Remission of Sins” several times but we did not receive “remission” until the confirmatory infilling of the Holy Ghost. That is why it is SO IMPORTANT.

 

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

The fact that Jesus died and shed his blood so that we could be sanctified is accepted by all Christianity.

The fact that the New Covenant, agreement or testament was not ratified until the recipient of the grace of God received the Holy Ghost is not accepted.

 We know from the Gospels that the Holy Spirit had not been given before Jesus had risen from the dead and had been glorified. This of course was the whole reason Jesus came. He was and is after all Jesus the Christ or Jesus the Anointer.

 We also know that John the Baptist preached baptism for the “Remission of Sins” saying that they (the people) should believe on he who was coming, that is on the Jesus the Christ. Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he (Christ Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

 The important word is “believe”. The question is; what is belief? Is it just acknowledging the existence of God, Is it verbalising belief in Christ? What does the Bible say? Lets see!

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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:48:27)

The term “Remission of sins appears 7 times in scripture. In these 7 references to remission of sins, the benefits of remission are contingent on Water, Blood or Spirit.

For example:

1) Water: Mar 1:4baptism of repentance for the remission of sins”.

 

2) Blood: Mat 26:28this is my blood…Shed for many for the remission of sins”.

 

3) Spirit:  Act 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

The religious leaders of the world freely quote Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness; that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.  

They openly tell their parishioners that belief only, is sufficient to receive the salvation, ignoring the very next verse and the confirmatory 3 witnesses.

Act 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision, which believed, were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

 

Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

 

Why do churches ignore this? The things that happened to the household of Cornelius were identical to those things that occurred with the120 on the Day of Pentecost.

They had received the Holy Ghost as the Apostles had at the beginning. Act 11:15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Act 11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Act 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This story is my template or model of how to determine if and when those to whom I preach have received the Holy Spirit. If I simply said to people say a sinners prayer or verbalize your belief. I might just as well white out this portion of scripture.

We are called to give people “all the counsel of God”. Not just the parts that afford us the least resistance.

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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 08:49:38)

As we can see there are three (3) Witnesses in the Bible that confirm or ratify our sanctification before God. We read in

1John 5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1John 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1John 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Again the religious leaders of the world freely quote these verses and stop short of the full gospel. If they read on they would be confronted with a challenge to their compromised version of the gospel. And once again they tell their parishioners that belief only; is sufficient, ignoring the next verses and the confirmatory 3 witnesses

 

1John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

1John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Jn 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

 

What is meant by the repeated use of the word witness?

 

Definition: A witness as a matter of Law, is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event. A witness who has seen the event firsthand is known as an eye-witness. Encyclopedia Brittanica

 

The three (3) Witnesses bear Witness of salvation.

 

None of this is new. One needs only to look into the Old Testament to see the pattern repeated over and over and over again.

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RE:The Burden of Proof
(Date Posted:08/06/2008 09:03:39)

That will do for now I will probably be banned from this site before most read these posts anyway.

Generally I find that most websites prefer "staged debates" where only those who support the point of view of the website creaters are allowed to freely speak. Those who offer a different point of view are controlled and censered off to the sidelines.

As far as the main point I am getting at is simple.

As at ~10 AM on the day of Pentacost those who had received the Holy Ghost had spoken in tongues.
Was there a reasonable expectation that at 11Am, 12PM or 6AM the next day would be any different?

If so where and when did this happen?

If there was an expectation that those on whom were poured out the holy ghost would do so in like manner to those in the previous hours on that day. Whould the expectation change in subsequent days, weeks, months, years, decades or centuries? If so Why?

Just wondering

Luke 7:35
MothandRust
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Status:
Posts:1472
Registered: 27/02/2004

Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:09/06/2008 02:08:49)

Reply to Cult member: Luke's Word Matters to Him

This has already been covered ad-nauseum elsewhere on the forum and is fairly tedious to rake over again and again, especially with someone as fixed and duped as you are on the subject. This isn't your stomping ground for promoting Revivalist doctrine and you're already banned (and uninvited here as you well know) for nuisance trolling - this forum is for ex-members, ok? Feel free to check out recent discussions though, because I'd wager them to be very enlightening on the subject you've brought up here.

eg. http://revival.aimoo.com/Revival-Doctrines-we-USED-TO-B/2-Questions-Acts-2-8-12-1-1018628.html

Lukey - as at ~10 AM on the day of Pentacost those who had received the Holy Ghost had spoken in tongues. Was there a reasonable expectation that at 11Am, 12PM or 6AM the next day would be any different?"

It seems on that particular day there were many 'diffferences' and 'experiences' that were not typical to the next. Did you get the ability to speak in foreign languages? Did you hear a blast of wind? Did you see what looked liked fire? Is this a common experience of all who speak in tongues and are 'saved' in your church... or is it all shigida shigida? Again