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brolga
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(Date Posted:17/03/2007 16:56:30)

Bible numerics is part of RC doctrine. I have gone along with it over the years, but now I bring it into question whether it is right or not as I have attempted to translate it from the Greek myselfbut cannot make it add up. Ref: Jesus in the Grk 888 and Satan 666, are but 2 examples I have tried. SOTTI or anyone be able toenlighten me? Thankyou.Brolga.

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RE:Bible Numerics, does it add up?
(Date Posted:10/07/2005 20:13:51)

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Religions/Numerics/allis.html


Excerpt from

Oswald Thompson Allis, Bible Numerics.
Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, 1944.

p18                                          

Many other features found in the OT group of 21 "writers" might well be
considered. According to "Feature Six" (Sabiers), of the 21 names of
"writers," 7 only are "named" in the NT (Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeemiah,
Daniel, Hosea, Joel). This ignores Solomon and Jonah, both of whom are
included in the list of 21 writers and they are certainly "named" in
the NT. This invalidates three of the ten "features" stressed by
Sabiers. It is remarkable that both Panin and Sabiers should have made
such an obvious slip.

The "Writer" James

Turning our attention to the five NT "writers," we notice something
that is worse than a slip. These writers are James, Peter, Jude, Paul,
John. Since these are NT writers and their names all appear in the NT,
their names are either Greek or have a Greek form. We are entitled to
expect them to be used as they are spelled in the NT. In the Greek all
five end in "s"; and James, Peter, and Paul all have the ending "os" of
the so-called second declension. This ending has the numeric value of
270. We observe with no little surprise that in the case of the names
Peter (755) and Paul (781), this ending is included in the total. In
the case of the name James (ie. Iakobos) the ending "os" is not
counted. With the ending, the name James would have the value 1103;
without it the value is 833. 1103 is not, as is 833 (7x119); a multiple
of 7. If used, it would change the total for the 5 NT writers and for
the 26 biblical writers to one which would not be divisible by 7. Why
then is this ending omitted in the case of the name James?

p19

The answer to this question is to be carefully considered because it
shows with the utmost clearness the extremes to which a convinced
numericist may be prepared to go in his quest of numeric factors. 833
is not the numerical-value of the name James, as that name is spelled
in the NT. It is not the numerical value of the name Jacob as that name
is spelled in the Hebrew of the OT. It is the spelling in the NT of the
OT patriarch, Jacob. It is arbitrarily used in this list of NT writers
in preference to the NT spelling of the name of the writer James simply
because it lends support to that theory of numeric value which the
other spelling would oppose. But it is not fair to "juggle" with words
in this case. In the NT the spelling without the ending always refers
to the patiarch Jacob; and the name then appears as Jacob in our
English Bible. The name spelled with the ending is used of James the
son of Zebedee and of the others bearing that name in the NT, notably
of the author of the epistle of James. Whether this inconsistency goes
back to Panin or the blame is to be
placed on Sabiers we do not know. In Panin's booklet, Inspiration of
the Hebrew Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated (1928); only the OT
writers are discussed; and the features that are pointed out differ
considerably from those given by Sabiers. But whoever is responsible,
such a gross inconsistency should be corrected. It is misleading to
those who are ignorant of the facts. To those to whom the facts are
known it is an illustration of ingenuity in manipulating the facts
which is decidedly damaging to the theory which these alleged facts
are cited to prove.

[Note from Brendan McKay: the writings of Sabiers that this extract
  refers to were taken by Sabiers from Panin's writings.]



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RE:Bible Numerics, does it add up?
(Date Posted:10/07/2005 20:15:36)

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/83.htm

The Seven Pattern in GreekThe patterns, or features, which Panin discovered in Scripture involved chiefly the number seven. Had he placed an emphasis on almost any other number, it is doubtful if anyone would have paid any attention to his discovery. His emphasis on seven made his claims seem more believable because of the prominence of the number seven in the plain text of Scripture, especially in the book of Revelation. Whilst numerical patterns of seven are very numerous in the Scripture text, patterns based on lesser numbers occur even more often. In any list of words you care to examine, one in seven features might be expected to yield a pattern of seven (for example, the previous sentence has 21, or 3 x 7, words), whilst one in two features would be expected to yield a pattern of twos (for example, the previous sentence has 4, or 2 x 2, five-letter words).

Consider for a moment a small sample of the evidence Panin advances for the inspiration of Scripture. Also bear in mind that for every seven features inspected for some kind of seven Pattern, on average one should succeed (that is, the actual numbers he wants to find are 7 or multiples of 7, such as 14, 21, 28, etc.). Matthew 1:18-25 is a passage about the birth of Christ. Partin informs us (we can check for ourselves, he says) that this passage (in Greek) contains 161 words, or 23 x 7 (feature 1), which occur in 105 forms, or 15 x 7 (feature 2), with a vocabulary of 77 words, itself 11 x 7 (feature 3). The sum of the two figures making up 77 is 14, or 2 x 7 (feature 4). Furthermore, the difference between the tens (70) and the units and tens (77) is also 7 (feature 5), etc. Eventually, after finding five more features involving the number seven, Partin says that this is sufficient to establish that there is a numerical design embedded in the Greek text, and that on the basis of this the passage is inspired. Most of these features are difficult to check. The number of words refers to the Greek words; classification into vocabulary, forms and figures requires a knowledge of Greek; and compilations of these data are subject to the investigator's discretion. Thus the ordinary reader cannot verify any but the simplest feature of the reported pattern of sevens. Moreover, Panin warns the reader that there are many pitfalls into which the inexperienced handler of Bible numerics is likely to fall; in particular, to verify any but the simplest of features requires the authentic Greek text that Panin himself published in 1934 and titled

The Numeric Greek New Testament. Oddly enough, the vocabulary he arrives at for the New Testament contains 5,304 words (not a multiple of 7), whilst Strong lists 5,523 words (789 x 7). Before he can check Panin's work the layman must decide which is the true vocabulary of the New Testament, Panin's or Strong's. This is not easy to decide, since Panin's vocabulary, at least as far as I can discover, is unpublished.The Seven Pattern in HebrewThe evidence Panin gives for the Hebrew text is no better. He uses the opening words of Scripture:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".

In Hebrew this verse contains 7 words (feature 1), which have 14 (7 x 2) syllables (feature 2) and 28 (7 x 4) letters (feature 3). Words containing the subject and predicate have 14 letters, and words containing the object 14 letters (feature 4). However, this example is even more extensive because Panin persists in examining it until he has discovered twenty-five features (some rather exotic) involving seven or a multiple of seven. To Panin this outcome was absolute proof of the inspiration of the verse. How was Panin able to find twenty-five features in such a short passage? The answer is that he probably examined many more and reported only those that succeeded.

Theoretically, to find twenty-five he need only to have examined a total of 175 features, since by chance one in seven would succeed. Counting any feature involving seven that he finds (the number of possibilities is large) he is certain to succeed in finding ten features in any passage of reasonable length. Even finding as many as twenty-five features in Genesis 1:1 would not require an unreasonable effort. In fact, in forty years Panin was able to cover a lot of the Scriptures. It is reported that he produced some 40,000 pages of numeric notes.

Panin's findings would be more striking if what he found in each verse followed the same pattern. Yet Genesis 1:2 contains 52 letters (not a multiple of 7), and fails to contain many of the features of verse. Should we then conclude that verse 2 is not inspired? Or has God set out a different pattern of sevens in verse two? Since Panin had so many features of seven to choose from, he could always persist until he had found his self-imposed ten features of seven. In examining the Greek text he often extended the number of features of seven by counting the sum of the Greek letters in words or phrases (each letter of the Greek alphabet was used as a symbol for a number).Objections to the Method

Eventually Panin's research led him to claim that numerics (as he called it) was capable of establishing that any passage of Scripture was inspired. The proof, Panin said, was based on the fact that all inspired Scripture contains so many patterns of seven that the probability of this happening by chance is extremely small. Not a page, paragraph or sentence in the whole Bible, he said, fails to show elaborate numeric designs. Yet in reality the large number of sevens was not all that impressive, since finding ten features of seven (or its multiples, 14, 21, 28, etc.) in a passage a sufficient number of times to claim that it is inspired requires the examination of approximately seventy features. What is extremely objectionable about Panin's methodology is that he multiplies reciprocals of numbers together to obtain what he claims are the probability of the features he finds occurring by chance. Thus if there are 7 words in a verse (feature 1) and 14 syllables (feature 2) the chance of this happening is 1/7 x 1/7 = 1/49. So if ten features are discovered, Panin suggests that the odds of this occurring are 1/282,475,249, that is, less that one in two hundred million, sufficient to establish the text as inspired. As a result of applying false assumptions, the probabilities obtained by Panin are considerably lower than the actual probabilities. Thus what Panin perceives to be irrefutable evidence for inspiration because of the low probability of the features he identifies is not nearly as irrefutable as he would have us believe. If the features were this improbable it would be fair to ask how he was able to find them in the first place, since investigation of 282,475,249 features at the rate of one a minute would take 537 years. Since he found so many involving seven they must be commonplace, since on average one in seven features is a multiple of seven.
 
For example, when I began to write this article I was sitting in a blue chair (1 of 28, or 7 x 4, chairs in our house - feature 1) on a Tuesday (1 of 7 days in the week - feature 2). Counting the dogs, there were 7 present (feature 3). Only 1 of the 14 (7 x 2) light bulbs in the room was burning (feature 4). The computer used for word processing this article had 28 (7 x 4) normal sized keys in the upper two rows (feature 5).

According to Panin's reasoning, if I continued finding a sufficiently large list of features of 7(he says ten is enough), the probability of me writing this article under these circumstances would be extremely small. No one I know would consider this analysis to be a convincing argument, yet Panin's analysis of Bible numerics has much in common with the above. Yet Panin is convinced this method works, and even states the following:

"The reader may now be prepared to be told that not a single question can be raised about the text of the Bible but can be settled by Bible numerics. Thus in the absence of punctuation in the manuscripts, numerics alone give certainty where the contents leaves in many cases the proper place of a comma doubtful".

Panin illustrates this by using a passage from Luke, which we give unpunctuated: "Verily I say unto thee today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). By placing the comma after "thee", Panin finds an unusual pattern of sixes, elevens and nineteens in the phrase, "today thou shalt be with me in paradise". However, if the comma is placed after "today" there is no pattern, enabling Panin to say that the comma must be placed after "thee". If you are one who believes that you have invisible, immortal soul that flies off on the wings of angels to heaven when you die, then this is undoubtedly the 'right' answer. However, for those of us who put our faith in the promises made to Abraham, and who expect our reward to occur when the Son of Man returns to this earth (to raise the dead) and to inherit the kingdom of God on earth, then this is yet another indication that Panin's numeric method cannot be trusted.

Questionable Value

This type of searching of God's holy Word is surely a waste of time, and perhaps even blasphemous. Nowhere do the Scriptures suggest that a study of numerics can enrich our faith or establish inspiration. Instead they make the claim directly: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16). Surely Paul would have mentioned the use of Bible numerics to Timothy if it were of any value. Instead we find that Panin's methods have been applied to the Koran, the Book of Mormon and even Poe's poetry, 'proving' their inspiration through an abundant pattern of sevens. For those who wish to investigate their own or others' writing for such signs of 'inspiration', a computer program is available on the Internet. Bible codes have much in common with Panin's approach to proving inspiration. Unusual features are 'discovered' and said to have a low probability of occurring by chance. It is almost two years since Michael Drosnin's book 'The Bible Code' attracted a lot of media attention. Although his 'discoveries' could not have been 'revealed' until the computer age, for centuries curious men have expended considerable effort searching the Scriptures for various coded messages from God. Reflecting on the work of Drosnin and others, we can only sorrow that they wasted so much time'discovering' ambiguous, if not trivial, messages. How much better it would have been for them to have spent their time concentrating on and applying the Bible's outward message to their lives!

Their superficial familiarity with a coded Scripture text has gained them but a moment's fame, instead of a share in the promises made to the faithful. Why are so many of us taken in by these ideas? (I was quite excited when I first heard about numeric and later Torah codes.) I think the answer can be found in one or more of the following (I forget the source I have adapted these from):A mystique - in this case Greek or Hebrew letters, or the concept that God might be behind it and we should not question it.A lack of tools to investigate it ourselves-in this case a lack of knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, and likely a weak background in probability theory.

A superficial reading-failure to see exactly what is being done because it is presented mysteriously or not fully explained.A desire by those who believe the Bible is inspired for additional ammunition to convince unbelievers.

A lack of the necessary time to investigate in depth what we hear about, and a feeling that there are better ways to spend our time.

It is disturbing to see these ideas gaining credibility in our midst. Some Bible Reading Seminar material that is distributed to our students even promotes Panin's pattern of sevens as evidence of the Bible's inspiration. Surely this is unwise when there is much better evidence provided in prophecy, or even in the obvious consistency of Scripture doctrinal teaching. Those who attend our Bible Seminars deserve better proof of inspiration than Panin's sevens or the Bible codes. There is a real danger that promoting these ideas will weaken rather than strengthen our witness to the inspiration of God's Word.

Source: The Testimony - March 2000

Author: Jack Robinson

Probability theory says that the multiplication rule used by Panin is appropriate only for independent events (coin tossing is a good example). It should not be applied indiscriminately to all events or else the results will be incorrect and misleading. Moreover, by choosing a sufficient number of features it is possible to show that almost any set of events is impossible (that is, it has a very small probability of occurring). Besides omitting his failures, Panin often counts a single feature more than once, and then goes on to extract an incorrect probability. Perhaps he was not a brilliant mathematician after all. For example, features 3, 4 and 5 of Matthew 1:18-25 are in reality only a single feature (see main text). Consider that if the vocabulary is 77 words (11 x 7, feature 3), the sum of its figures 7 + 7 must be 14 (feature 4). Furthermore, Panin has the audacity to count it a third time as feature 5, the difference between the tens (70) and the units and tens (77). Mathematically, the probability of these three features occurring together is 1 (that is, the result is certain to occur), because the other two features must follow if the number is 77. Essentially what Panin has done applies equally to Bible code researchers. By giving a great prominence to their 'successes' they have convinced some that the improbable has happened. In reality, with so many possibilities the unusual is certain to occur.



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RE:Bible Numerics, does it add up?
(Date Posted:10/07/2005 20:18:10)

Miracles in Edgar Allan Poe

The following example is an expansion of one first presented on USENET by Charles Culver of Computers for Christ.

For this example, we will use numerical values for English letters assigned using the same pattern as used for Arabic, Greek and Hebrew.

  A=1   B=2   C=3   D=4   E=5   F=6   G=7   H=8   I=9
J=10 K=20 L=30 M=40 N=50 O=60 P=70 Q=80 R=90
S=100 T=200 U=300 V=400 W=500 X=600 Y=700 Z=800

We will analyse the famous first line of Poe's classic poem "The Raven":

   Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary






  • There are 7x7 letters.
  • The first and last words sum to 202x7, of which the first letters contribute 80x7.
  • The consonants in words starting with a consonant sum to 537x7.
  • The consonants in words ending with a consonant sum to 485x7, of which 192x7 comes from the odd length words and 293x7 from the even length words.
  • The consonants in words 2,4,6,8,10 sum to 177x7.
  • There are 7 words ending with consonants.
  • There are 3x7 consonants in words of even length.
  • Considering words 1,3,5,7,9,11:

    • There are 3x7 letters.
    • The even (2,4,6..) letters in each word total 138x7.
    • The last letters of each word total 205x7.
    • The first and last letters of each word total 51x7x7.

  • Considering the verb "pondered":

    • The first letter has value 10x7.
    • The vowels have total value 10x7.




In his original article, Charles wrote:

  There are a number of other objections to Panin's methodology 
as well, which time does not permit me to go into.
It appears that Charles is just as good at writing numerical text as Poe was.

  • The sentence has 3x7 words and a total value of 143x7x7.
  • The first word has value 44x7.
  • Words ending in vowels have value 230x7.
  • Words ending in consonants have value 708x7.
  • The three pronouns total 40x7.
  • The words which start with a vowel and end with a consonant total 3x7x7x7.
  • Considering just words 2,4,6,8,...,20:

    • There are 6x7 letters.
    • The 3x7 letters in odd position in the sentence total 53x7x7.
    • The 3x7 letters in odd position in a word total 54x7x7.
    • The first letters total 163x7.
    • The consonants total 408x7.


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RE:Bible Numerics, does it add up?
(Date Posted:10/07/2005 20:24:13)

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Religions/Numerics/


Mathematical Miracles in the Qur'an or the Bible?


As you explore these materials, please bear in mind the nature and purpose for this web page, and a necessary disclaimer - (Why did I collect the material on this web page?).

Similar pages:

  • In Search of Mathematical Miracles (by Brendan McKay)






    Claims / facts on numerical features in the Qur'an



  • The Submitters: [1] [2], [3], are the group which is the reason for me to respond to the whole issue in the first place and their web site contains a lot of information from this particular group of Muslims who hold the conviction that the "Number 19 miracle" in the Qur'an proves its divine origin.

    Not only 19 is miraculous in the Qur'an:


  • Amazing Al Qur'an

    (Other miracle claims about eloquence, scientific foreknowledge, textual preservation, etc. are dealt with in the Qur'an section of the Answering Islam site.)

    Responses to their claims:
    Data: (The problem of interpreting the data and twisting the data to make it fit):


  • The numerical miracle in the number of Islamic prayers and other miscounts
  • The Basmallah: [1], [2]
  • Changing the Qur'an?
  • The Mysterious 19 in the Quran
  • A Numeric Miracle of the Number 19?
  • Miscounts, their repair and other number games: [1], [2]
  • On the 365 days hoax: [1], [2],[3], [4], [a 19er response]

  • About the "false verses": [1], [2], [3], ...

    Mathematics: What really are these probabilities and what is the correct way to view it statistically?


  • A mathematician's response

  • How to transform every number into 19

  • What exactly are these probabilities?

    General:


  • Draft FAQ on the topic by 'AbdulraHman Lomax

  • The deception and its code

  • Response to the claims by Ibnu Ar Radi

  • A little satirical contribution

  • I have not read it myself but the following book has been recommended to me:
      Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips
      The Qur'an's Numerical Miracle: 19- hoax and heresy
      Abul Qasim Bookstore; Jeddah - Saudi Arabia


  • The final and most important miracle


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    RE:Bible Numerics, does it add up?
    (Date Posted:10/07/2005 20:28:54)

    http://www.greaterthings.com/Bible_Codes/Book_of_Mormon/index.html









    'Book of Mormon' in Bible Code


    Index


    Book of Mormon Commentary on Sept. 11 (9-11); Chapters 9 Verse 11



    Evidences and exposition from words and numbers associated with 'Book of Mormon' in equidistant-letter-sequence Torah code and Alphabetics code



    Page Contents
    Studies by Sterling D. Allan | Studies by Dean Mansfield | Related Sites


    See also:
    Book of Mormon Resources @ GreaterThings.com



    Get a Free Copy


     







    bullet

    Studies by Sterling D. Allan


















    bullet Page Number Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Bible, and Sealed Portion - 531 (#pages in BofM) x 3 (3/3 = sealed + preparatory) = 1563.  LDS printing of Bible has 1560 pages.  Page 1563 is blank.
    bullet 360 -- Many Evidences for the Book of Mormon - Skip sequence for 'sefer (Book) MORMON' in Bible Code is 360. Words and pages 360 in Bible-bases sources provide affirmative commentary on the Book of Mormon.
    bullet 531 and the Book of Mormon - Words and Pages numbered 531 in the Old and New Testament Lexicons and several English dictionaries vindicate the Book of Mormon's witness of Jesus Christ.
    bullet Zenos' Allegory (Jacob 5) in the New Testament Lexicon - Eleven consecutive pages of definitions in Zodhiates New Testament dictionary contain key words from Zenos' Allegory and of vineyard imagery in general, confirming the allegory and offering additional insight.
    bullet 515 'Book of Mormon' in Theomatics, Alphabetics - Theomatics: 'The Law' = 515 = 'The Book of Mormon'; 515 in Alphabetics: 'The esteemed book of Messiah, whose foundation is God.'


     







    bullet

    Studies by Dean Mansfield















    bullet star Is the Book Of Mormon of Hebrew Origin? - Pre- versus post-Babylon captivity Judaism, and the preservation of Messianic teachings and traditions.
    bullet Ets Ephraim va-Ets Yahudah - Following words encoded in Ezekiel 37: Bible, Book, Mormon, Joseph, Smith.
    bullet 'Mormon Book' Skip Sequence in Torah Code - 'MRMN sefer (book)' skip sequence of 105 in Deuteronomy 32-34, includes phrases: 'from Egyptian,' 'Aramaic,' 'English,' and 'Hebrew;' also 'rosh Joseph,' 'America,' 'Jeshurun'
    bullet More: click here for many more writings by Dean on things Book of Mormon in Bible Codes


     







    bullet

    More



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