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worriedmum
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1# |
Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3210
Registered:
17/08/2007
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(Date Posted:30/09/2007 18:56:07)
After the first shock passed I went back to the Bible. No one dared to answer to my post and explain how we actually interpret that scripture. Even the omniscient Didaktikon. Yeah, why the Bible is so difficult to understand? May be because it uses Shakespeare's language. King James' version is not bad but today's new international version is better. Still people tend to interpret it the way they want it.
So let's keep reading.
Mathew 5.23 Jesus words are in red in that bible.
"Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar..." I am pointing it out to you only because I m wondering what sort of gift Jesus talks about, because it is a truly pagan tradition to bring some offerings to an altar. And I hear from my son a lot about Catholicism and how it is build on pagan traditions that is why it is wrong. I don't agree with it, because the new testament is a continuation of the old testament and the old testament is not pagan, it is Jewish. So, it is a very strange teaching in RF. Can anyone comment anything for it, not against? Simply because I heard a lot against it, I want to hear something in support of Catholicism, if you care. I don't understand how Catholicism can be separated from Christianity because for more than thousand years this was the mainstream religion (together with Orthodox of course) and anyone who would think otherwise would be considered a heretic.
We went to Europe just this year and I loved those statues of different gods that were displayed in Paris museums, also in the Vatican museum. The god of love Eros, son of Aphrodite, the goddess of love, is holding his bow with arrow, any minute he is ready to shoot in our hearts, so we would fall in love. The goddess of hunt Artemis (Diana in Roman religion) has been always my favourite. "She loved hunting lions, panther, stag and deer, roaming the mountain forests and uncultivated land with her nymphs. Artemis was also a friend to mortals, dancing through the countryside in silver sandals" She has an athletic body and is so beautiful. So in her case the pagans would give the gift to the statue of Artemis before a hunt to help hunting. Makes perfect religious sense. Gods need to be entreated. It was a little problem with this religion because this was the religion of Romans who occupied Jewish land. To save Jewish religion and culture Jesus made a sacrifice. He talked with his Jewish god and inspired his people with new ideas, lead people and died for his people. Sounds like a true hero indeed. Even though he was crucified, his ideas are still living between us. That is how Christianity started. ffice ffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
PS Damn, I misspelled ?peace' in the previous post.
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If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you.
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http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Didaktikon
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2# |
Rank:Posterior Maximus I
Score:17390
Registered:
29/08/2007
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(Date Posted:01/10/2007 04:01:19)
Reply to : worriedmum
'Mum',
After the first shock passed I went back to the Bible. No one dared to answer to my post and explain how we actually interpret that scripture. Even the omniscient Didaktikon.
Eh? Did I somewhere miss an opportunity to engage with you? 
Yeah, why the Bible is so difficult to understand?
Well, speaking for myself, I don't find it so but that has something to do with me taking the time to learn about it in detail 
May be because it uses Shakespeare's language.
Oh, that's good! Lady, there are over 40 English language versions of the Christian Bible available today, and only one of them is written in Elizabethan English (and, incidentally, it certainly isn't the pick of the bunch when it comes to reliability).
King James' version is not bad but today's new international version is better.
Sure. This is your informed opinion, you clearly being something of a biblical scholar?
Still people tend to interpret it the way they want it. So let's keep reading.
Let's! 
Mathew 5.23 Jesus words are in red in that bible.
And so you've overlooked another clear indicator of Jesus' deity: the ability to speak in red words! We mere mortals apparently can only speak blackones 
"Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar..." I am pointing it out to you only because I m wondering what sort of gift Jesus talks about, because it is a truly pagan tradition to bring some offerings to an altar. And I hear from my son a lot about Catholicism and how it is build on pagan traditions that is why it is wrong. I don't agree with it, because the new testament is a continuation of the old testament and the old testament is not pagan, it is Jewish. So, it is a very strange teaching in RF. Can anyone comment anything for it, not against? Simply because I heard a lot against it, I want to hear something in support of Catholicism, if you care.
Deary, deary me. This really is base ignorance of the very worst sort  'Mum', the passage has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. Jesus was addressing a crowd of Jews. Jews presented offerings on the Temple altars as part and parcel of their religious worship. Jesus was very clearly explaining that the outward action was worthless if it wasn't tempered by an inward conviction. As I've harped long and hard, one needs to appreciate the context if one is to understand the message aright.
I don't understand how Catholicism can be separated from Christianity because for more than thousand years this was the mainstream religion (together with Orthodox of course) and anyone who would think otherwise would be considered a heretic.
As I said, this has nothing to do with Catholicism 
We went to Europe just this year and I loved those statues of different gods that were displayed in Paris museums, also in the Vatican museum. The god of love Eros, son of Aphrodite, the goddess of love, is holding his bow with arrow, any minute he is ready to shoot in our hearts, so we would fall in love. The goddess of hunt Artemis (Diana in Roman religion) has been always my favourite. "She loved hunting lions, panther, stag and deer, roaming the mountain forests and uncultivated land with her nymphs. Artemis was also a friend to mortals, dancing through the countryside in silver sandals" She has an athletic body and is so beautiful.
Eh? Is your intention in this post to enter into an exegetical discussion of a portion of Scripture, or to consider the relative merits of aesthetics as such applies to Roman sculpture?
So in her case the pagans would give the gift to the statue of Artemis before a hunt to help hunting. Makes perfect religious sense. Gods need to be entreated. It was a little problem with this religion because this was the religion of Romans who occupied Jewish land.
No doubt.
To save Jewish religion and culture Jesus made a sacrifice. He talked with his Jewish god and inspired his people with new ideas, lead people and died for his people. Sounds like a true hero indeed.
Bollocks.
Lady, clearly you haven't a clue concerning the subject matter of this discussion
Cheerio,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Didaktikon
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3# |
Rank:Posterior Maximus I
Score:17390
Registered:
29/08/2007
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(Date Posted:01/10/2007 04:32:40)
Reply to : worriedmum
'Mum',
Now that I've come across your piece, I thought it best to address your 'concerns'
I am currently reading New Testament, as recommended by many including my own son. How do I understand this?
Let's see, shall we?
Jesus did not let a man to bury his father. He said, "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead." (Mathew 8.22) I reckon, it was not very nice, as he did not let the man to mourn over his fathers' dead body. What sort of phenomenological language is that?
To begin with Jesus was calling some to close discipleship, to the sacrifice of placing one's personal needs, wants and aspirations second to that of following him. The thrust of the, "...let the dead bury their own..." was the very fact that Jesus was life, and I'm thinking you altogether missed this salient and defining point. Second, by virtue of Jesus being (and bringing) 'life', grief and mourning was improper. It was to elevate the 'finality' of death as victor over and against the victory of Christ as 'life-giver'. Third, such wasn't phenomenological language at all. What it was, however, was the presentation of theological truth and the decision point which invariably follows the same. It was a challenge to choose: 'life' as represented by Jesus, or 'death' as represented by the deceased.
Should we all follow Christ then?
Absolutely
A lot of people actually do so already in all sorts of Bible based cults.
No they don't. Such people follow an aberration of their own devising.
Is this what it means to be a true Christian?
Dumb question.
Then he drowned a herd of pigs, obviously including two possessed men. (M 8.32)
Actually, if you read the passage again you'll find that it was the demons who caused the herd of pigs to be drowned, and those who were formerly oppressed by the demonic were released from their oppression and set free. The passage certainly doesn't present the idea that they drowned alongside the pigs.
If we follow the Christ, it looks like we should say goodbye to our already underfunded mental health care.
Ha, ha, ha. Lady, you're a riot!
Considering the other Jesus' miracles I do believe them in the same way as I believe in alien abduction.
I'm certain that you do! 
The worst part of the Bible I think is here. Jesus sends out the 12 apostles to drive out the evil spirits and to heal.
'Yes'. I can see how his mission to free those who were socially outcast, spiritually bound and demonically oppressed would be so offensive to you.
Mathew 10.16. I am sending you out like sheep amongst wolves...10.21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me...10.34. Do not suppose that I have come to bring piece to the earth. I did not come to bring piece but the sword."
Yep.
How I am supposed to understand this? Enforced Christianity? Or let's kill people for the common good?
Wow. You never cease to amaze at how you can add 'one' plus 'one' and end up with 'five'. Again, it comes down to making a choice and living with the consequences. People are funny, but thoroughly predictable. We humans have a tendency to fear and/or hate what we don't understand. And you, as a perfect example of this truth in action, have demonstrated more than adequately the very same effects, here
This is very disturbing evidence. Against the family values!
Well now, the 'family values' ain't always the right ones, are they?
This is a proclamation of a Crusade against humanity - "...whoever loses their life for my sake will find it" 10.39
Are we reading the same passage?! A crusade against humanity, or humanity crusading against Christianity?
Amazingly, nothing actually said about how to heal people.
Do tell? I thought the passage was perfectly clear on that score.
I am sorry, but I am feeling stressed right now reading this and I have to stop. Too much analogy with Islam.
I'd wager that what you actually understand about Islam would fit on the reverse of a postage stamp. I suggest this confidently, given that such is demonstrably the case with respect to your understanding of Christianity.
I would very worried if I was a Muslim, I would be horrified! As I am scared being a free person.
Oh, you're not free,'mum'. You're completely and inextricably 'bound' by the effects of your ignorance
Cheers,
Ian
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Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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RF_on_the_edge
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4# |
Rank:Regular Poster
Score:3180
Registered:
12/03/2007
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(Date Posted:01/10/2007 04:42:27)
Reply to : worriedmum
I'm responding because you asked me to in another thread.
Your comments indicate that you need some guidance on what you're reading. I'd suggest:
1) finding a small 'o' orthodox church
2) as you say, staying away from the KJV; NIV is modern English, but NLT (agreeing with Ian's advice elsewhere) is better at bringing out the meaning
3) reading with humility and very carefully
4) getting some good commentaries
Here are some examples of why I make those suggestions.
Jesus did not let a man to bury his father. He said, "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead." (Mathew 8.22)
Yes, this does seem strange, particularly since 'the first commandment with promise' was to honour your father and mother. If I recall correctly, one commentary I read said that it would have been clear to a 1st century reader of the gospel that Jesus was referring to not following a custom of some Jews of having a second burial that went beyond the normal mourning, respecting, honouring and burial.
PS I just read Ian's reply; seems I got it wrong.
Then he drowned a herd of pigs, obviously including two possessed men. (M 8.32)
Read the corresponding passages in other gospels and you'll see that while the pigs drowned, the men were healed, left with sound mind, and subsequently told their countrymen about Jesus. Their evangelising was so successful that when Jesus returned to the area he was swamped with people asking for Him to heal them.
Mathew 10.16. I am sending you out like sheep amongst wolves...10.21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me...10.34. Do not suppose that I have come to bring piece to the earth. I did not come to bring piece but the sword."
The context makes it plain that this is saying that Jesus is warning His disciples will be the victims of violence - not the perpetrators!
"Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar..." I am pointing it out to you only because I m wondering what sort of gift Jesus talks about, because it is a truly pagan tradition to bring some offerings to an altar.
Jesus was talking to 1st century Jews and this is entirely in keeping with what we find in the Old Testament. Even today Christians are to bring a gift to the altar - submitting themselves to God.
I'm not going to say anymore here as you need to listen to someone trained in, and understanding of, the context and culture of the bible. As I said, I suggest looking for a small 'o' orthodox church. (Maybe keep your eye out for those advertising 'alpha' courses.) The person who best fits that description on this forum is Ian. So when he says 'bollocks' to something, it would be wise to ask him why he says it. (And keep in mind that 'bollocks' is nothing compared to the 'Get behind me Satan' that Jesus served up to his mate Peter  )
RFOTE
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