|
tommo
|
1#
|
Rank:Member IV
Score:1500
Posts:75
Registered:05/10/2008
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 00:06:53)
Whats your point? why waste your time regurgitating someone elses work, surely if people are interested in this cats writing they can look it up themselves! You are free to have your own thoughts you know.
|
|
Talmid
|
2#
|
Rank:Regular Member
Score:4190
Posts:205
Registered:21/04/2008
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 01:39:31)
So you're suggesting Pawson believes in the need to speak in tongues?
--------------------------------------------------------------
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
Didaktikon
|
3#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To pilinut
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 02:03:26)
Sabs,
So why am I not surprised to learn that you find David Pawson appealing? You do know, don't you, that among informed readers he is a theological 'fringe-dweller' at best, or thoroughly heterodox (if not worse) depending on individual perspectives? Also, in common with another dubious author that you once recommended, Mr Pawson's works are not published by any reputable Christian publishing house. This too should be cause for concern to you.
There are very many established and solid Christian theological authors currently in print. What should catch your attention, is that irrespective of individual and personal theological conviction (e.g. Pente, Catholic, Reformed, etc), there does exist something of a consensus when it comes to core doctrinal issues (such as "what one needs to 'do' in order to be saved"). For whatever reason, you seem to be always off chasing the truly novel and extreme. Remember, the Holy Spirit is a corporate safeguard more than he is a personal one.
Blessings,
Ian
P.S. By the way, I simply loved the whole Pawson 'plug' from his website thing! How remarkable that he put himself in the same company as Spurgeon.
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 30/05/2009 05:09:35)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
Aimoo Team
|
|
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 06:09:37)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
|
dogmafree
|
5#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 07:52:16)
Well losing faith in the bible is as easy as falling off a log. So theoillogical studies are just a good way to get totally stuffed up with indigestion!
--------------------------------------------------------------
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
|
|
Aimoo Team
|
|
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 17:50:53)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
|
|
Didaktikon
|
7#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To dogmafree
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 18:27:58)
Good morning, Dog.
Losing faith in Scripture is a remarkably easy thing to do, especially if one (a) wishes to 'lose' said faith, and is looking for an easy excuse to do so; (b) is lazy, and so simply couldn't be bothered putting any effort into seeking out answers; and (3) never had much in the way of 'faith' to begin with (i.e. 95% of all Revivalists, whose 'faith' is/was grounded on nothing more substantial than a thoroughly subjective personal 'experience'). From my perspective, however, faith in Scripture is and shall always be secondary to faith in Christ. The former is 'normative', the latter 'definitive'.
If I might be allowed to share from my own experiences (both subjective and objective): the committed and detailed study of theology in all its forms (biblical, exegetical, dogmatic, elenctic, pastoral, etc) has proven to be anything but 'indigestive' or somehow 'damaging' to one's spirituality. Quite the opposite in fact, it has been thoroughly enlightening and liberating a thing to do! (How else do you think it is that I can "slam" the Revivalist nonsense so comprehensively and effectively?)
I commend a little theological inquiry to you, as being a worthwhile and salutary activity 
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 31/05/2009 05:39:04)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
dogmafree
|
8#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
|
RE:David Pawson
(Date Posted:30/05/2009 23:54:47)
Ian,
Your points b and 3 have some resonance with the truth. I can wear having a leaning to laziness. Its a human condition, more or less. And whatever 'faith' may have existed in the RCI/RF for me was pretty thin. At least I am in a much more honest and real position these days.
Thing is.... I find christianity far from being an appetising prospective way of being/believing. It simply does not offer ready access to what I see as universal truths. Instead glimpses of real valuable and enlightening 'truths' are buried deeply beneath a mountain of crap and ambiguous, archaic texts. Texts that fail to lead the average person through the minefield of life into a place of relationship with the divine. What's more, the concept of a God that expects us to find our way, digest it all and then have faith in what christianity presents is not something I find tolerable. Especially when there is supposedly this "do it this way or burn in hell" fear-mongering bullshit sitting there to herd us into his stall. This kind of thing makes me turn 180 degrees from christianity, as I see no evidence or reason to believe in such a deity. Just a whole lotta christians beating their collective drums, making a whole lotta noise about a restricted view of a god that does not make sense!
Even more intolerable is christians' one eyed way of putting all their eggs in one basket (christianity) and closing their eyes to the many, many other sources of revelationary wisdom and truth. Their obsession with the bible, endlessly trying to unravel it and its hidden gems (call it theology if you must... makes the pursuit sound so much more noble and worthwhile) turns them aside from so many more accessible, readily comprehended sources of learning and understanding. Things which may bring us as close to a real God as anything else will.
To quote a little from Eckhart Tolle's 'The power of NOW'....
Since ancient times, spiritual masters of all traditions have pointed to the Now as the key to the spiritual dimension. Despite this, it seems to have remained a secret. It is not taught in churches. If you go to a church, you may hear readings from the Gospels such as "take no thought for tomorrow; for the morrow will take thought for the things of itself" or "Nobody who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is for for the Kingdom of God". Or you might hear the passage about the beautiful flowers that are not anxious about tomorrow but live with ease in the timeless Now and are provided for abundantly by God. The depth and radical nature of these teachings are not recognised. No one seems to realise that they are meant to be lived and so bring about a profound inner transformation"
So my point is, why the hell should I bother deciphering and living by the bible, learning theology etc, when there is absolutely no evidence or good reason to say it will avail me anything that isn't so much more available in other ways. You (Ian) may find it rewarding and enlightening. I would assert that christianity has a very poor track record in offering the same to the greatest proportion of mankind since its inception. Not worth busting ya gut about if ya ask me!
Dog.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
|
|
Didaktikon
|
9#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To dogmafree
(Date Posted:31/05/2009 00:44:25)
Hi, Dog.
Your points b and 3 have some resonance with the truth. I can wear having a leaning to laziness. Its a human condition, more or less. And whatever 'faith' may have existed in the RCI/RF for me was pretty thin. At least I am in a much more honest and real position these days.
Indeed, which is why I respect you (and those like you) far more than I do many others who profess to being Christian, and who visit here from time-to-time.
Thing is.... I find christianity far from being an appetising prospective way of being/believing. It simply does not offer ready access to what I see as universal truths. Instead glimpses of real valuable and enlightening 'truths' are buried deeply beneath a mountain of crap and ambiguous, archaic texts. Texts that fail to lead the average person through the minefield of life into a place of relationship with the divine. What's more, the concept of a God that expects us to find our way, digest it all and then have faith in what christianity presents is not something I find tolerable. Especially when there is supposedly this "do it this way or burn in hell" fear-mongering bullshit sitting there to herd us into his stall. This kind of thing makes me turn 180 degrees from christianity, as I see no evidence or reason to believe in such a deity. Just a whole lotta christians beating their collective drums, making a whole lotta noise about a restricted view of a god that does not make sense!
Sure. I'd like to offer the following reflections to your respective points. First, I wonder if you've ever encountered 'authentic' Christianity to begin with; it's very easy to rail against belief/propositional systems which promise much, but which actually deliver very little! I've not found this to be the case with Christianity, but I've certainly found it to be the case with much that passes itself off as being Christianity. Second, we've addressed the entire issue of supposedly 'archaic' and 'ambiguous' biblical texts in the past, you and I, so there's not much point rehearsing the issue again now other than to point out that 'truth' doesn't degrade with the passage of time. Something that was 'true' 2,000 years ago will still be 'true' today. Third, you might be surprised to discover that God doesn't expect the 'average' person to find his/her 'own' way into a relationship with the Divine. Such is, bye-and-large, the role of the Christian Church, one which (sadly) hasn't been done particularly well. Fourth, the Christian God is a god of recovery and redemption; the "do-this-this-way-or-burn-in-hell" position is a parody of what Scripture teaches on the issue. I do wonder though, whether those people who harp on continuously about having to "do" things God's way (rather than their own preferred way) really have an underlying issue with submission to authority, in this case, 'ultimate' authority?
So the way I see things, each and every one of your objections is based on something other than biblical (or 'authentic') Christianity.
Even more intolerable is christians' one eyed way of putting all their eggs in one basket (christianity) and closing their eyes to the many, many other sources of revelationary wisdom and truth. Their obsession with the bible, endlessly trying to unravel it and its hidden gems (call it theology if you must... makes the pursuit sound so much more noble and worthwhile) turns them aside from so many more accessible, readily comprehended sources of learning and understanding. Things which may bring us as close to a real God as anything else will.
Intolerable? Why? When one has encountered 'truth', tolerance to falsehood/deception hardly makes logical sense, don't you think?! In any case, 'authentic' Christianity follows the axiom: "all truth is God's truth", so there's no obscurantism in closing oneself off to God's revelation in other sources. Why else do you think I would have studied philosophy? Or read widely in the sciences? It's simply the Christian position that God's final and most complete revelation of himself and his will occurred in the person of Jesus Christ.
So my point is, why the hell should I bother deciphering and living by the bible, learning theology etc, when there is absolutely no evidence or good reason to say it will avail me anything that isn't so much more available in other ways. You (Ian) may find it rewarding and enlightening. I would assert that christianity has a very poor track record in offering the same to the greatest proportion of mankind since its inception. Not worth busting ya gut about if ya ask me!
Given that you aren't a Christian, there's no point whatsoever in you attempting to 'decipher' and live according to biblical teaching! However, if you are someone who is prepared to test truth claims seriously, rather than simply dismissing them, then there is much benefit to be gained in "dipping your toe".
In summary, from what you've shared, I seriously doubt that what you recognise and describe as "Christianity" bears very much likeness to what Christianity actually is.
Blessings,
Ian
(Message edited by Didaktikon On 31/05/2009 00:55:49)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
dogmafree
|
10#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
|
RE:David Pawson
(Date Posted:31/05/2009 01:17:49)
Ian, re: your summary....
You may be surprised! In the last few years since I found this site, and also with other encounters in my life, what has emerged is a gradual revelation of what I see as a purer representation of christianity. And in all honesty, I have found your expoundings of scripture/theology part of this process. Some people I've known, and a councellor I have seen have presented a refreshingly more tenable case for christianity than I had previously encountered.
Otherwise, I would have dismissed the whole deal long ago, and (since I've gotten over revivalism) have no reason to continue coming here. I wrestle with what I see, experience, know, feel etc on a daily basis. I have a very real appreciation of myself as a spiritual being and part of a much larger universe. As much as I see some very convincing arguments for atheism, I am just too much aware of a spritual realm to give myself over to atheism. So, I continue to live, breath and experience this wonderful cosmos. I know love, goodness, pain, dissapointment, grief, depression, immense joy and so very much more. I see 'god' in all of this, and I believe I know 'god' about as well as most people (if not more). I see religion (in its many guises) as almost total crap. Yet I have not closed my eyes to the possibility of there being virtue there, especially as I see some wonderful examples of genuine christianity. So much of the assault I may express here towards christianity in general is me 'shaking the tree' to see just what substance there may be there. Having said that, I still find christianity's insistance that Jesus is the only way to God, and that all other ways are illegitimate to be incredibly difficult to accept.
Dog.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
|
|
Didaktikon
|
11#
|
Rank:Old Forum Fogey
Score:31600
Posts:1517
Registered:29/08/2007
|
Reply To dogmafree
(Date Posted:31/05/2009 01:23:31)
Dog,
Fair enough. Then continue on the 'journey' without having any preconceived ideas about the 'destination', and see what develops!
Blessings,
Ian
--------------------------------------------------------------
Vivos voco, mortuos plango
website: www.pleaseconsider.info email: didaktikon@gmail.com
|
|
dogmafree
|
12#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8300
Posts:355
Registered:21/02/2006
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:31/05/2009 01:25:27)
Its funny..... rereading my post above (wrestling daily etc) must come across as having my head in a real spin!
But from my inner space, I am actually very contented and settled with the whole 'questioning and living in the question' thing. A contradiction perhaps, but how it feels to me. I am bathed with an inner glow of something that is hard to describe, but feels good and happy. Maybe its God within?!
Dog.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
|
|
Aimoo Team
|
|
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:31/05/2009 05:03:50)
This message has been deleted due to Termination of Account.
|
|
Galien
|
14#
|
Rank:Poster Venti II
Score:8650
Posts:425
Registered:17/01/2005
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:01/06/2009 00:45:58)
I have found some authentic christians, but not where you would expect to find them. If it werent for these gems I probably would have given the whole idea the flick. You never find them standing up the front though telling us all how to live. No, they just quietly go about their business doing exactly what they were meant to do. Loving others in humility. After my revival experience then 10 years in a CRC church u can throw whatever scriptures or teaching you want at me. But if I can't see the love of god manifest in your life, save your breath. I ain't buying.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So there.
|
|
Sea Urchin
|
15#
|
Rank:Poster Venti III
Score:9010
Posts:431
Registered:15/02/2007
|
Re:David Pawson
(Date Posted:01/06/2009 06:39:01)
Hi Dog,
I just want to say thanks for being so open and honest in sharing your feelings and thoughts with us. Enjoy your journey!
Love, Urch
--------------------------------------------------------------
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
|
|
|
